Key Suspects In Horrific Beating Of Arab Teens Come From Haredi Families

"Impoverished neighborhood settings, combined with high drop-out rates, constitute surefire prescriptions for youth violence in any context, suggests a professional who works with young Haredi drop-outs. 'Now this rule applies to the haredim.'"

Ten days ago, a large mob of Jewish teens attacked and almost killed three Arab teens in downtown Jerusalem's Zion Square. One of the victims, Jamal Julani, was left in a coma from the attack.

Now it turns out that some of these Jewish teens, including the two lead attackers, are from haredi homes.

Tamar Rotem reports in Ha'aretz:

…The third young woman, the one who is still being detained, comes from an ultra-Orthodox family with two working parents. Until a few months ago, she studied at the Beit Yaakov seminary.

The young woman indicates, as does the prime male suspect, "A" (who also comes from an ultra-Orthodox home ), that drop-outs from religious seminaries and yeshivas should not be regarded as harmless idlers, as Haredi leaders depict them. They have a disposition for grave acts of violence, the two suspects indicate.

Indeed, impoverished neighborhood settings, combined with high drop-out rates, constitute surefire prescriptions for youth violence in any context, suggests a professional who works with young Haredi drop-outs. "Now this rule applies to the Haredim," he points out.…

"Regrettably, there are demonstrations of racism in our public," [a female haredi teacher from Jerusalem] says, noting that in this neighborhood an Arab housekeeper was forced to leave under the accompaniment of her male employer, due to fears that she might be attacked. Yet this teacher says that contempt for Arabs never translates as physical violence. "The most that happens are verbal, racist denunciations," she says.

But poverty and being a haredi yeshiva/seminary dropout aren't the only indicators for propensity for racist violence, as Rotem herself notes about a group of Bnei Akiva Orthodox Zionist teens from the south of Israel that she interviewed in Zion Square:

…"It's very good that they [the Jewish assailants] hit them," said one young man. "It's just too bad they didn't kill them," he added.

"Had I been there, I would have killed them," boasted another young man in the group.

The Bnei Akiva youths said they wouldn't have tried to stop the assailants who beat the Arabs - in fact, many agreed they would have joined the perpetrators. "Arabs are terrorists who carry out attacks and want to murder all of us," they explained

As they spoke, their counselor kept silent, never interrupting to denounce the attack.…

Comments

[Rachel]

The beating was very understandable and justified. These arabs were there to date Jewish girls, as such, these hareidi youth took measures into their own hands to prevent it from happening. Aside from the assimilation aspect, these girls will get terribly abused once they enter such a relationship.

Preventative must be taken to stop such a calamity.

[DS]

"These Jews were there to date German girls, as such, these German youth took measures into their own hands to prevent it from happening."

"These Negroes were there to date White girls, as such, these White youth took measures into their own hands to prevent it from happening."

[Jeff]

Preventative must be taken to stop such a calamity.

Posted by: Rachel | August 26, 2012 at 09:19 AM

A "preventative" ought to have been undertaken to prevent your ignorance. Regrettably, it wasn't.

[Liran]

Now it turns out that some of these Jewish teens, including the two lead attackers, are from haredi homes.

Where did the rest come from? Can we get a full breakdown so we know just where to place the blame?

[simple jew]

B"H

These kids are about as haredi as shmarya jeff and ds.

The headline could read "key suspects.... NOT FRUM"

Just saying....

[Shmarya]

Where did the rest come from? Can we get a full breakdown so we know just where to place the blame?

Posted by: Liran | August 26, 2012 at 09:55 AM

Most of them appear to be your fist degree relatives.

[jancsibacsi]

If the girls are stupid enough then theese girls deserve what they get i cannot fathom any normal jewish girl being this stupid as to even talk to theese lowlife murderer palestinians

[Jeff]

These kids are about as haredi as shmarya jeff and ds

Well, the story does state:

The third young woman, the one who is still being detained, comes from an ultra-Orthodox family with two working parents.

Both parents working; you may be right.

[Eli, what me messiah?]

Is "Rachel"'s comment satirical? If so, it is in poor taste. (If not, give a tug on her white hood, and run away.)

Tamar Rotem is a truly astute writer. The line about the counselor keeping silent and not restraining the murderous comments speaks volumes by itself.

[Gevezener Chusid]

Jancsi:
Arabok nagy faszok.

[God is not amused]

You know it is nobodies business who dates whom. It just isn't.
That kind of prejudism has no logical basis. Look at Walid Shoebat or Bridgett Gabriel so they should be persona non grata, because?
Not so long ago(1900s) it was taboo to marry a "dirty joo" in Europe.

Jews and Arabs are being used as "useful idiots" to tear apart the middle east by the new world order globalists. But, hey that is another subject. Just thought I would throw that in.

[Sarek]

I also presume Rachel's comments to be satirical. Nobody with 1/2 a brain would have said that stuff seriously.

[Eli, what me messiah?]

God, who are these new world order globalists and where do I sign up?

When I was in high school, a white supremacist group would occasionally dump on us their propaganda about a global conspiracy between the "trilateral commission" and the Jews. Same group?

Or maybe it was the IMF and the Jews. Or the Federal Reserve and the Jews. Or maybe it was the Jews and the Jews.

[Yosef ben Matitya]

Prof. Leibovitz understood the consequences of intolerance several decades ago.

[God is not amused]

Oh, and if you notice the Muslims and the Chassids along with devout Catholics have dogmas that are a mirror image of each others. All these fundamentalist should be able to sit down and have a whole lot in common. All three emanate from pagan rituals. All three claim male superiotity. All three are VIOLENT......need I go on?

[Yaakov]

The problem with the issue of intermarriage is so fundamental that it cannot be discussed rationally across the divide between those who believe that "Jewish identity" is critically important, and is based on a kind of purity that intermarriage destroys; and those who believe that it is either not important, or can be allowed to evolve to include new forms.

Because these two basic positions are mutually exclusive, not even taking into account the idea of "dating", which is yet-another-argument, what useful dialogue can be expected? From the point of view of the first group, compromise is simply impossible. No matter how "open-minded" they may be inside their milieu, accepting this would be, in their minds, the equivalent of national suicide. How can they be expected to accept that?

Conflated with the intermarriage issue are gender inequity, racism, Jewish "Election" à la Calvin (conversion doesn't really change this idea), and base tribalism. But even those in the religious Jewish milieu who are relatively enlightened cannot accept intermarriage because it represents a fundamental attack on Jewish identity.

[Bas Melech]

Yaakov,

Nicely put. The issue in a nutshell.

[Friar Yid]

No matter how "open-minded" they may be inside their milieu, accepting this would be, in their minds, the equivalent of national suicide. How can they be expected to accept that?

They can't, just like feminists/egalitarians can't accept mechitzahs or refusing to let women be leaders or scholars. But, the tipping point is how you react to other people doing the thing you can't accept-- you can live and let live, or you can demand that other people change to suit you. The latter attitude is what leads to violence, intolerance and hatred-- regardless of the ideology.

[jancsibacsi]

Gevezener Chusid -Nem csak vagy faszok honnem nagy alatok is, es gyilkosok, murderers.

[Yaakov]

jancsibasci:

I don't speak Magyar, so I have no idea what you are discussing with Gevezener Chusid, but, I must say that characterizing "Palestinians" as murderers is simply racist nonsense.

You should be more careful about painting with a broad brush. This seems at odds with your normal way of thinking, which is far more rational and thoughtful.

[Yaakov]

Friar Yid:

The trouble with orthodoxy is that it rules out tolerance in my cases, this being one of them. There is no "tolerant" position available to an orthodox Jew on intermarriage, and, in fact, it is considered meritorious to be intolerant of it.

The best I have been able to come up with at this point is to ignore them. This is a luxury I have because I live in the US, but if I lived in Israel I'd be faced with a more difficult problem.

Some time ago I tried to imagine what I would do if I was a young Palestinian man in territories. It is hard for me to say that I wouldn't take up arms against Israel, given the circumstances, the information that would be available to me, and the constant oppression of the people around me by the IDF.

Tolerance is baseline for an ethical system. Mutuality, respect one for the other, is far greater—but tolerance is the minimum requirement. When it isn't there, you have an enemy and may well find yourself forced to fight.

[WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar]

One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.

[jancsibacsi]

Yaakov -You know what i meant, do not trust any of them, i didnt mean all of them are murderers thats obviously not true.

[Yaakov]

jancsibasci:

I don't think you are a bad person, but I know what you said, I can only guess what you meant, and other people won't even bother they will just take you at your word.

On my campus is a police officer. He is a Palestinian who was a 7-year old in 1967, living in Jerusalem. He tells me stories about being treated terribly. He was innocent, both in the sense of not being guilty of anything and of any negative ideas about Jews until he was mistreated. He is one of the most simpatico people I know, a very pleasant man with a genuine interest in others. Should I not trust him? Is he a potential murderer because his is Palestinian?

You need to be careful when you begin to caricature an entire people. You will create a group of "murderers", in your mind, and as we are seeing in Israel, in fact, because you will create a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Palestinians are not murderers any more than Israelis are. If you were to talk about Hamas, or Hezzbolah in this way, it would be more understandable. But, Palestinians are people, like you and me, and some choose a bad path while others simply suffer and look for relief.

[Jeff]

You know what i meant, do not trust any of them

That pretty much encapsulates the way I feel about people of faith; I don't trust any of them. There isn't one who wouldn't sell his/her children down the river to protect his/her belief system. The security blanket, the promise of postmortem continuity in a state of bliss - that is all that matters to them. I haven't met one exception (except, perhaps, for the Dalai Lama - and we've never actually been introduced).

[Yaakov]

As an addendum to my previous post, anticipating rhetorical diversion:

I have stated here repeatedly that self defense is a legitimate concern. In fact, according to the Torah, it is a requirement. This presents us with a need to make careful judgements.

If we believe that "Jewish life" is superior to other life, then the judgment is easy, concern ourselves only with protecting Jews. But, if we believe, as I do, that kol habriyot is precious, then great care must be taken in deciding how to act in the presence of a danger from a certain group.

I have believed, and still do believe, that allowing the Palestinians to lead healthy, prosperous, safe middle class lives is the best possible way to eliminate the threat that some of their number pose to Israel. In any case, I do not feel capable of oppressing an entire class of people because I believe that among them is a threat to me.

In 2011, 21 people were killed by Palestinian terrorists. That same year, 384 people died in automobile accidents. Israelis are more of a threat to themselves than Palestinian terrorists are! Does this mean there is no problem, does it mean that there should be no vigilance, no effort to protect Israel from external threats? No, of course not. Self defense must be undertaken.

But, when self defense means abuse of innocents, I part ways. Some danger is part of living, and I personally don't feel the right to be "safe" on the backs of others who are most likely innocent.

[rebitzman]

In 2011, 21 people were killed by Palestinian terrorists.

I would submit that the number is low (it was closer to 500 in 2002) because of the enhanced measures taken by Israel to keep the number low.

That said - I agree with your contention that a prospering Palestinian people would go a long way to creating a situation where it is no longer in their best interests to attack. I think we are starting to see this in the West Bank, and as development of infrastructure continues the need to do random full body cavity searches will decrease.

I further agree with your contention that there is a line, that when crossed, makes the Israelis the bad guys in spite of their legitimate need to protect themselves, and that as of late they have been crossing that line all too often. Problem is - the threat is tangible, the placement of the "line" not so much.

[Bassy the Haredi Slayer]

The reference to Bnei Akiva is silly, Bnei Akiva is a youth movement with snifim (branches) in any town in Israel. There are socioeconomic, religious and political differences between the branches, some of them are gender separated, some of them are mixed, some of them are right wing, some of them are left wing.

She just as well could find members who support the peace process, with a little more effort she would be able to find members who believe that 2Pac is alive and well, he converted to Judaism and lives in Bnei Brak

[Yaakov]

rebitzman:

I find it hard to separate the effects of all the forces involved in reducing that number. 2002 was the middle of the second Intifada, making the number very hard to compare with 2011.

However, according to b'Tselem, 91 Palestinians were killed in 2011 by the IDF and in 2002 it was just over 1000. These numbers, though, don't really help understand what is happening. There are many ways to explain them, and depending on your agenda, they can be made to fit.

What I know about are the people I have met, both Palestinian and Israeli. I know how convinced each is of their own righteousness and the other's guilt. I know how desperate the ordinary merchant-class Palestinian, and the university-educated professional Palestinian are for peace. I know that they are hostage to both the religious zealots among their own people, and those in Israel. I know that there but for the grace of God go I,

It's not simple. Not in the way that the insane, murderous, racist lunatics on either side want it to be, or those who seek peace by shouting "mea culpa" and hoping that tears will heal it. Simplicity is not a feature of this situation.

The path to peace is simple in principle, mutual respect and the discarding of unfounded fear, and terribly hard in practice. It's hard because each side has actual reasons to be angry and distrustful. It's made harder by the insanity of some Jews who believe they are somehow more human, and more loved by God because they happen to be born to a Jewish mother.

[WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar]

It is in the best interests of the religious fanatics on both sides to keep the hate going.

WIthout hate and ongoing bloodshed, you will not have to turn to your local cleric for comfort and encouragement to continue the killing.

Imagine if an American president reached out to the Palestinians, offering economic aid and encouraging investment in their territories to create jobs, stability, education, etc. so they could focus their energies on their own success rather than on killing the perceived Jewish enemy.

Oops- that president would be condemned by the right wing frumma as being anti-Israel.

[WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar]

Yaakov, thank you, as always.

[Liran]

You need to be careful when you begin to caricature an entire people.

Posted by: Yaakov | August 26, 2012 at 01:24 PM

How true. I only with that when it comes to the haredim and the Hasidim people wouldn't paint such broad strokes and condemn them all. Most of them are innocent people trying to get through the day like most of us.

[jancsibacsi]

Yaakov-I agree with every word you wrote, but let me put it this way i never saw israeli citizen killed so barbarically like i saw many times palestinians kill israelis one such instance that is ingrained in my mind is when 2 israelis got lost andwent by mistake into a palestinian town this happened over10 years ago those 2 israelis were so brutally buchered and their bodies thrown out the window it was videotaped i never ecver saw israelis act so savagely and there are many cases similar to this,also israel didnt,and look at gaza the rockets they shoot into israelis almost every day for what thery got back the piece of land so why are they shooting rockets are they this self destructive then i dont know what to say.

[Yaakov]

jancsibasci:

I know precisely which incident you mean. I was also horrified by it. It was inhuman, and made worse by the fact that children were encouraged to participate. But, that wasn't "Palenstinians", it was a particular group of zealots, at a time when Israelis were killing people around them with bombs and guns.

It takes a small percentage of the population to do something like that. Most people will hide in fear, and rightfully so. The zealots are very dangerous. I wouldn't say there is yet an equivalence between the Palestinian zealots and the Jewish ones, but I can't honestly say that the trend isn't in that direction.

While Jews, culturally, have more concern about corpses of enemies than Arabs, dead is dead. I don't think it is functionally worse to kill and display an enemy than it is to just kill them. When one kills in self defense it is a terrible necessity, something awful forced upon us. When killing becomes a meritorious act, to be celebrated, things have turned the corner.

In the end I hold the Jews to a higher standard because they claim to have a higher moral ground. So, I am not convinced that horrible acts by uneducated villagers justify the brutal suppression of a civil society that did exist in the territories before.

[Yaakov]

Liran:

It is certainly true that this idea applies to all people. While it is legitimate to treat a group as the group, always treat a person as an individual. The fact that they belong to the group doesn't make them the same as the group.

I think that Kant's Second Maxim is one of the most compelling statements of this idea, when taken as the way to treat the individuals you encounter. There is no ethical demand to be willfully naïve, however. It is legitimate, and even mandatory, to be careful in your dealings with people who could harm you. This is a matter of judgment, something most people prefer to abandon to one or another orthodoxy as a way of avoiding the hard work of being humane.

[Yosef]

Yaakov, you've almost won me over. Just one last question, and I'll be over the hurdle: how many Palestinian suicide bombers and victims were there, vs. how many Israeli suicide bombers and their victims?

[Shmarya]

Yaakov, you've almost won me over. Just one last question, and I'll be over the hurdle: how many Palestinian suicide bombers and victims were there, vs. how many Israeli suicide bombers and their victims?

Posted by: Yosef | August 26, 2012 at 02:50 PM

Please.

How many Israeli soldiers beat or shot innocent Palestinians or used other excessive force for no reason?

How many Palestinians died because of it?

Israel has state power and can – and does – use that, officially or unofficially, against Palestinians.

Palestinians really don't have that state power to use against Jews, so they use other forms of violence.

This isn't meant to justify that violence at all. It is just meant to point out the power imbalance that causes it to exist in the forms it takes.

Any thoughts about this, little man?

Of course not.

What passes for your brain doesn't have the capability to think.

[Yaakov]

Yosef:

I don't know, but I am willing to guess that it is fewer than the number of tank drivers and fighter pilots in the IDF. I know the bombers have killed fewer people.

And by the way, I don't support bombing by either side, just to nip and confusion on that point in the bud.

[SkepticalYid]

As a matter of fact Etzel and Lechi used bombs in Arab marketplaces and on buses frequently in the 30s. The Haganah did so as well in the mid40s.

[Shmarya]

As a matter of fact Etzel and Lechi used bombs in Arab marketplaces and on buses frequently in the 30s. The Haganah did so as well in the mid40s.

Posted by: SkepticalYid | August 26, 2012 at 03:06 PM

A younger brother of one of those bombers is a friend of mine.

[Charlie Runkel]

Shmarya have you served in the army?
Shmarya do you know the kind of pressure soldiers are under?
Sure it doesn't justify harming innocent civilians, but the Palestinians have chosen to live in a state of war rather then peace, and that is an unfortunate outcome of war, that civilians get caught in the middle.

[Shmarya]

Shmarya do you know the kind of pressure soldiers are under?
Sure it doesn't justify harming innocent civilians, but the Palestinians have chosen to live in a state of war rather then peace, and that is an unfortunate outcome of war, that civilians get caught in the middle.

Posted by: Charlie Runkel | August 26, 2012 at 03:08 PM

Sometimes unnecessary violence against Palestinians is caused by that intense pressure or by honest mistakes.

But other times that unnecessary violence is not a mistake – it is intentional, and it isn't caused by "pressure" IDF soldiers are under or fear of attack. It is sadistic and often racist.

[Rebitzman]

One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.

And in the words of Peter Cooke, it's very different to tell them apart when you're being disemboweled by one of them.

@Yaakov

The Israeli insanity you described is matched only by the stated goal of the Palestinian side to push all Jews into the sea. History has shown they are willing to try - at any and all costs. Up to and including a 10:1 death rate.

All that said: There is no excuse for the recent excesses of the military, and the individuals responsible should be, and the civilians responsible for the horrific and unprovoked attacks in Arabs should be(and here is abasic difference between the sides - WILL be) held accountable for their actions.

I do disagree with your "simple" solution in favor of what you said earlier, when there is no reason to stir the pot, because the lot is providing a comfortable and equitable living for the middle class, the politics will follow.

[Yaakov]

To be clear, I completely condemn Hamas and its splinter groups, as well as Hezbollah and its associates. I repudiate the legitimacy of their tactics (which include the intentional targeting of civilians. These groups are also violent to their own people. They readily kill those who they suspect of "collaborating" and use threats of violence to compel compliance with demands for material aid.

Unfortunately, on the other hand, I have to condemn a great deal of what is done today by the IDF. The high moral ground they once claimed has eroded. I don't trust them, and I believe they act in ways which are both inhumane and unnecessary. While I don't believe the IDF targets civilians, I do believe they are much too willing to incur "collateral damage" and quite unconcerned about the suffering of the Palestinians. In addition, the government's use of them for "collective punishment" is, in my opinion, morally bankrupt.

[Yaakov]

rebitzman:

My two points are not mutually exclusive. The way to providing a safe and comfortable life is trade, which is based on mutuality of motive, and on decent relationships among all the people involved.

[SkepticalYid]

Posted by: Rebitzman | August 26, 2012 at 03:18 PM

The PA has worked very hard to prevent terrorist attacks. This is a publicly acknowledged fact. Even Bibi has praised Abbas for his efforts.

[Charlie Runkel]

Don't worry Yaakov, we do not need your trust. Next time you plan on coming to Israel, don't. I did not risk my life for people like you.

[Yaakov]

Charlie Runkel:

That's just silly. I'll tell you what, you can stop taking my tax dollars and we'll call it even. Deal?

[jancsibacsi]

I just read this about americans ,the 100 per cent american is 90 per cent moron, i am kidding a famous writer wrote this about americans.

[jancsibacsi]

not kidding

[Yaakov]

jancsibasci:

I don't think there are many morons running around, but there are plenty of ordinary people deluded by ideological systems that put them above others, and justify their native avarice.

Most people are smart enough to understand what is right but prefer to listen to what is convenient. This is the state of the world and as things stand I don't see any change soon.

[jancsibacsi]

Yaakov -I am very curious about youre oppinion on iran i respect you more then anyone i know,should israel attack or not what do you say?

[WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar]

Jancsi,

HL Mencken was a brilliant journalist and writer in the first half of the 20th Century.

He is most famous for his reporting during the Scopes Trial.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H._L._Mencken

[Yaakov]

janscibasci:

I simply don't have enough reliable information to make a judgment. The situation is so highly politicized that I can't tell what the real threat is.

It is my understanding that the economic actions are starting to have a critical effect, and clearly that is better than military action if it can be effective. Here's what I think is going on:

The leadership of Iran subscribes to an apocalyptic version of Islam which expects a great war before the return of a messianic Imam

The military is fed an intellectual diet of the greatness of the Persian past mixed with Islam. They are told that Iran/Persia has a right to be a superpower as in the past, and that they are very powerful

Iran Is quite technically capable, and they can and do design weapons which end up on the hands of people fighting the US Armed Forces and the IDF, so they are at the very least, a conventional threat.

The facilities being used for nuclear research (and I do believe it is their intention to build nuclear weapons, in spite of protests to the contrary) are almost certainly so hardened that they could not be bombed effectively from the air.

The program to get nuclear weapons seems to have been seriously injured by a combination of stuxnet and the Mossad actions against scientists, so they are further from a weapon than they would be, though I don't know how much.

Direct military action by Israel would provide an excuse to employ proxies like Hezbollah, and the Iranian military, in a war with Israel. This would certainly lead to large numbers of deaths on both sides.

Most of the urban population of Iran is not militaristic or religiously conservative, and quite young. They would prefer a democracy, and would be the other regional democracy, ironically very similar to Israel if those people could gain power. However, if Israel attack, this could easily change.

So, the bottom line for me is that without really understanding the urgency (that is, actual timeline to a workable device, and the actual willingness to use it) I would probably say the riskier move is to attack. It seems from what I do know, that continued economic pressure is the most reasonable thing. But this really is just surmise since reliable information is not available to me.

[Eli, what me messiah?]

I have a friend who teaches a professional class on negotiation. Most of the classroom work involves simulated negotiations, with each side bargaining from different points of view, based on "confidential" briefings for their side.
The concluding negotiation is one over a fictitious incident of a Palestinian accidentally shot by Israeli soldiers at a checkpoint. The confidential briefings set out the factual circumstances of the incident for each side. No direction is given to the participants on what they are supposed to "get" in the negotiation.
He tells me this negotiation always devolves immediately into highly emotional session with parties shouting at each other, "he was unarmed when he was shot!" and the other side, "but he was warned and he didn't stop; he could have been a suicide bomber." He says that very often parties on both sides start to embellish the details, adding facts, and generally making their side appear angelic and the other demonic.
Tensions rise so high that sometimes he has to interrupt the negotiation early.
at the end, the sides exchange their "confidential" information only to discover that they were given exactly the same information. the only only thing that changed was the side they were on.

[God is not amused]

Eli/happy to update you on the Globalist Cabal. Thanks to Daniel Estulin/Webster Tarpley....to name a few(investagative journalist) who, for well over two decades or more investigated the origins of the global elite, have disproved that the "cabal is da joos." In fact most of the Bilderbergers are WASPS with financial ties to the Vatican. The Jews that are in this elite group are undeniably the Rothchilds from the inception of the Bilderbergers. Modern day era; the House of Saud is a member of these merry band of plutocrats.
Israel should be weary of the the Rothchilds even though they bankrolled the inception of Israel. They also bankrolled the Nazis at the very same time. And of course George Soros, the bane of Hungarian Jewry has never seen justice, by seeing Soros pay for his crime BECAUSE Soros works for, you guessed it .......the Rothchilds.
To the globalist, Israel is now useless becuase she is autonomous and will not be ruled from the UN(note how the UN hates her).....and the Muslims are also in the same boat their autonomous( which is why it is being dismantled right now under flase flag operations.) ISRAEL PLEASE DON'T ATTACK IRAN. That is what the globalist want. Israel and Muslims taking each other out. The New World Order will be ruled from the UN. Once all the middle east is beaten down, wars funded by, you guessed the elites who make zillions off of wars, what/who is left won't be able to stand up to global domination from the UN and the elites will will makes zillions in rebuilding this New world Order, in the middle east.
I pray God steps in and BOTH Israel and the Muslims see the game plan of these WASPS, and JOIN together to fight the NWO......not each other.

[Yaakov]

Mencken was a great writer but rather acerbic. He started out an antisemite but over time he changed his mind. He advocated for the Jewish refugees of WW II and complained about their mistreatment.

Interesting person, but his tone puts me off. He is similar in some ways to G.K. Chesterton, except that Chesterton never modified his antisemitic stance. A shame, because he was probably one od the greatest writers in the English Language.

[Eli, what me messiah?]

as to the above negotiation example, I should note that he has changed the scenario, with an Israeli accidentially being shot by Palestinians, and the result was the same. the parties were unable to engage in reasoned discussion about the event, without injecting a high level of prejudices and emotions.

[WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar]

++God is not amused | August 26, 2012 at 05:05 PM++

If there was any doubt regarding your mental health, it has now been dispelled.

[Eli, what me messiah?]

God, thanks for the update. I'm afraid that I can't subscribe to these vast conspiracy theories because I have a deeply held belief that human beings are unable to cooperate at such levels for so long and keep it a secret. But I am glad to hear that the current theory is now also targeting WASPs.
and please be nice to the Rothschilds. that particular conspiracy theory has been debunked time and again. for a good trouncing see:
http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4311
but the family does have a fascinating history.

[God is not amused]

Eli/Conspiracys are only such until they are known by other than the initiators(conspiracy=two or more people) This my friend is not a conspiracy. It is based on documented facts. The Bilderberger group exists and they publish their plans in UN documents. I hold in my hands right now a book printed in 2005 "The New Global Stage, Challanges and Opportunities in our Borderless World." by Kenichi Ohame note the word "BORDERLESS."(Wharton School of Publishing).......BRB checking out skeptoid. Trouncing LOL! we shall see.

[Bassy the Haredi Slayer]

As a matter of fact Etzel and Lechi used bombs in Arab marketplaces and on buses frequently in the 30s. The Haganah did so as well in the mid40s.

Blood libel, the Jewish underground in pre-Israel was focusing on fighting the British, not the Arab.

Lechi was not even existed in the 30's, nice try

[Eli, what me messiah?]

God, have I mentioned how much I enjoy calling you God?

[God is not amused]

woolsilk/Until you can prove me wrong, you are not qualifed to judge anybody in anyway shape or form.
I can judge by your ad hominem blurb that you are short of intellectual dilalogue and deductive reasoning. In otherwords you are a vacuous airhead.

Bassi/Exactly right. The Jewish/Muslim feud is an orchestrated manipulation. The elites have used such methods for centuries to control the masses. keep them at each others throats keep them distracted as the maniputalors make tons of money by the misery created by the feuds.

[Yaakov]

WoolSilkCotton:

Are you really an airhead? All this time I thought your head was full of wool, silk, and, cotton.

In all seriousness, though I understand your impulse concerning Gina (an acronym), I don't think that being a conspiracy fan requires mental health trouble.

A lot of these conspiracy theories are quite compelling with all sorts of "evidence" and carefully woven scenarios. It doesn't take too much credulity to accept them as true.

For the sake of humane discourse you probably should refrain from such extreme assessments. Even if it was true, which in this case I don't think it is, it couldn't do anything but injure.

I would have said these things in private but I don't have any way to reach you privately. Please accept my comments as a sign of respect, since I make them only because I believe you will consider what I have to say.

[rebitzman]

@SkepticalYid

Agreed - and the other side of that coin is that the infrastructure, business and standard of living in the West Bank is booming.

Now if we could just get Gaza in line (or moved offshore a few miles).........

[rebitzman]

and on decent relationships among all the people involved.

Over rated.

I think the sustained peace between Jordan and Israel and Egypt and Israel has shown that!

[SkepticalYid]

Posted by: rebitzman | August 26, 2012 at 05:50 PM

The West Bank is booming for the Israeli settlements. However the cantonization of the West Bank has led to increased unemployment and poverty for the Palestinians.

[SkepticalYid]

Blood libel, the Jewish underground in pre-Israel was focusing on fighting the British, not the Arab.

Lechi was not even existed in the 30's, nice try

Posted by: Bassy the Haredi Slayer | August 26, 2012 at 05:25 PM

It's not a blood libel. It's simply an historical fact you never learned or prefer not to acknowledge.
As to your comment about Lechi- you're partly right. It was still part of Eztel in the 30s. It didn't split off until 1940 or so. So I'll rephrase: Etzel, including some members who later split off to form Lechi, placed bombs in arab markets and on buses in the '30s.

Here's a limited acknowledgment from knesset.gov.il:

"... Etzel (an armed Jewish underground organization), an opponent of the Hagana which did not accept the authority of the official institutions, carried out acts of retaliation less discriminately, such as the planting of a bomb in the Arab marketplace. "

Here's a list of some attacks in chronological order:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irgun_attacks

You'll find this evidence a lot more credible than your specious "blood libel" comment.

[Eli, what me messiah?]

Yaakov,
You don't strike me as someone holed up in a cabin in flannel wool and a stockpile of ammo, so I assume you may be joking. If not, my apologies to you and the hillbilly neighbors.
These conspiracy theories are actually pathetic. They prey upon the gullible, generally don't offer any real evidence (false info doesnt count),, don't survive critical questioning, and are readily debunked.
The old saw about the Rothchilds is a good example: it's silly, has been around more than a century in various forms, and has been debunked repeatedly.

[God is not amused]

Eli/skeptoid sucks because:

May 22, 2012 ... Some believe that world governments and economies are secretly controlled by the Rothschild banking family.

Did he not read the Napoleonic Wars? or is he hoping that nobody else did.

Here is how you tie the Rothchilds into funding the nazi......."holdings." They had holding in companies that "did business" with the nazis and their war machines.

http://www.truthcontrol.com/house-rothschild

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/emullins.htm

I know it is hard to believe but remember money corrupts absolutely.

And lastly I give you this: Why is Soros NOT on trial for war crimes?

http://www.hiddenmysteries.org/conspiracy/rothschild/soros.html

http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/behind_barack_obama_188.html

[WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar]

++God is not amused | August 26, 2012 at 06:25 PM++

Yaakov, you cannot possibly expect me to see postings such as this, following the 5:05 and 5:25, and not remain convinced that G.i.n.a. is not suffering from a severe mental illness.

Remaining civil the sake of humane discourse? I have my limits.
WWJD- What Would Jeff Do?

And moving right along, there's this:

Fox News Analyst Reminds Us What Neil Armstrong’s Death Is Really About: Obama Spreading Islam

http://gawker.com/5937942/fox-news-analyst-reminds-us-what-neil-armstrongs-death-is-really-about-obama-spreading-islam

[Yaakov]

Eli

I am no fan of global conspiracy theories. I belief a conspiracy of self-interest is all that is needed to explain the observables in nearly every case. A kind of distributed conspiracy which has no central control and local motivation. But, in my comment, I was not defending conspiracy theories but humane discourse.

I don't think that Gina's beliefs represent reality but I also don't think they merit being called insane. That was my point. For the record, when it gets cold I am muc more likely to be seen in a black mock turtleneck and a fleece than flannel.

[Yaakov]

By the way composing replies on an iPad is quite fraught with tedium and error. Please excuse any odd typing.

[Bassy the Haredi Slayer]

It's not a blood libel. It's simply an historical fact you never learned or prefer not to acknowledge.
-------------------

If you read your own vikipedia list and go to the source

[15] (Hebrew)Y. 'Amrami, A. Melitz, דברי הימים למלחמת השחרור ("History of the War of Independence", Shelach Press, 1951. (a sympathetic account of events, mostly related to Irgun and Lehi).
close

Instead of eating everything they feed you, you will see that most of the Arab victims were policemen, Arab Fasists and members of the Grand Mufti clan.

[God is not amused]

Eli/You really think the elite is going to publish their dirty dealings for you "so you can have proof." Conspiracies denote, "dirty dealings hidden from public view" otherwise they would not be "conspiracies"

conspire=SECRET agreement to do an unlawful act.

If you belive none of what I print then the stop and think and ask yourself WHY has SOROS not been charged with war crimes by Israel? She hunted everyone else....could it be someone is stopping Israelis??? Gee, who would have an interest in making sure George stays off the radar???
Now why would Rothchild who set up the state of Israel NOT want his employee Soros arrested???

ANS: Rothchilds has no moral investment in humanity. His investments lie in the material.
The State of Israel was an investment with a great future return ESPECIALLY if you control her government and her wealth.

What did Amschel say:
Give me control of a nations money supply, and I care not who makes it’s laws.

think out of the box

False info?? sorry it is all documented, via historical documents. But they are fragments of events here and there and they have to be put together like a jigsaw puzzle. Which has been done by many good investigative journalist and authors.
Note the key word MANY.

[Eli, what me messiah?]

God, OMG you're right! The Rothchilds funded the nazis so Soros wouldn't get caught putting Neil on a desert stage (faked moon) while we all know the walrus was Paul, which explains why no Jews were present when the CIA attacked the twin towers.
But you're still God to me.

[Bassy the Haredi Slayer]

When I read the comments about the moral equivalency between the wrongs of the IDF and the savage acts of the PA/Hamas (ie the Ramallah massacre, Murder of Tali Hatuel and her four daughters, etc)

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Tali_Hatuel_and_her_four_daughters

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Ramallah_lynching

it reminds me of something,  few years back I came across a Reform shul children program. The handout was about a discussion with kids after watching the movie Defiance. 

The facilitator was to ask ghe kids questions like' Were the Bielsky partisans were right to take food from the Nazis and to give it to their families?' , 'Were the Bielsky partisans we're right to kill nazis and collaborators ?'

I am thinking now what I was thinking then that people who cannot distinguish between the Nazis and their victims or between the IDF and Hamas should not  be allowed to have children to transmit their genes to the next generation.  Evolution should take care of it.   

[Joe Klugman]

Ex-haredis are dangerous. They think that by becoming irreligious they can get away from murder. This blog-owner is an ex-haredi too. He gets away with character assassination all the time. And as Shimon Peres has said time and again - WORDS CAN KILL>

[SkepticalYid]

Posted by: Bassy the Haredi Slayer | August 26, 2012 at 06:55 PM

Yes, the random victims in a marketplace and on a bus were all fascists and henchmen of the Grand Mufti. Jews never once committed an atrocity. Even the women and children killed in the Haifa marketplace attack were directly involved in military action against Jews. (sarcasm intended).
You can't cherry-pick one reference out of dozens and expect your contention to be considered seriously. As you would have it, every single Jewish action has been in self-defense.
The fact is, most of the Arab opposition to Jewish immigration to Palestine was directly because of the supremacist b.s. they were taught via Islam. Of that there is no dispute. They didn't want Jews there, they still don't. Most (not all) would dance in the street if any significant number of Jews were killed.
However, anyone who believes Jews were always angels and were always in the right is a fool

[Jewish Cynic]

WSC, Yaacov, Shmarya,
The moral equivalence you draw between Israel and Israeli acts and Arab nations/entities and Arab/Palestinian acts does not apply to the reality.

Likewise the thought that giving Palestinians flat screen TVs and nicer cars will cause them to give up opposing Israel is naive.
It's also insulting to Palestinians to imply they'd sell their honor for for a more comfortable lifestyle.

Getting any American President to give billions to Arabs/Palestinians in exchange for a promise of peace is no problem - it's been done before. Problem is that no honorable Arab can give up on destroying Israel unless such a goal is clearly impossible.

How 'bout an American administration (and/or European etc) declaring absolutely that the country stands behind Israel and will not let it's survival be endangered.
And how 'bout an American administration revealing and openly denouncing the anti-Israeli/anti-semitic propaganda constantly tought to Arabs in their schools and in the state approved media (Imagine the reaction if Israeli TV showed an anti-Arab piece on the level of The Protocols of The Elders of Zion.)
Without addressing those, the only peace can be the destruction of Israel.

BTW It's true, Israelis have committed immoral acts (remember Boruch Goldstein), the difference is those acts, including the recent attacks are not praised by the authorities or the general populace (I doubt Goldstein's mom has letters of praise for her son from Israeli and Jewish leaders).
Bassy is right - it sounds good in the lounges of Harvard and Columbia or the offices of J-Street, but if you insist on moral equivalence despite the facts then Israel should be declared a rouge nuke state and sanctioned or attacked until it's nukes are eliminated. (if you think that will lead to peace it's pointless to continue the conversation).

[SkepticalYid]

Goldstein might not be the best example. His grave has practically become a shrine for elements of the RZ settler community.

So far as the destruction of Israel goes... highly improbable unless Iran gets Nukes.

[Yosef]

Jewish cynic,
Thank you for your well-presented piece. It's a breath of fresh air around here!

[Ken]

What a crock. Below is an article about the share DNA of Palestinians and Jews. Read the whole thing, but here is one quote:
So, as far as male lineage goes, the genetic story is very clear. Palestinians and Jews are virtually indistinguishable.

But then there was Cain and Abel...

http://epiphenom.fieldofscience.com/2009/01/shared-genetic-heritage-of-jews-and.html

[Korbendallas72]

You can't make someone see what they don't want to see. The truth is terrifying, especially when you're not a believer.

[Charlie Runkel]

Yaakov I don't live in the States, so I have nothing to do with you tax dollars. Second what does your response have to do with my comment to you.
You are the same as the Chareidim living in Israel, they live there, living off a society that provides, and protects them and giving nothing in return, and if there is something they do not like, PROTEST. You criticize the IDF and then go and enjoy vacations in a country that somebody who did not serve in the army, truthfully has no idea what every soldier has given up for those living there.
Well I don't like them and for the same reasons I don't like you.

[Yaakov]

Charlie Runkel:

First, Israel receives about $3,000,000,000 in US aid to the IDF each year. So, those tanks, planes, guns, and ammo are largely paid for with my tax dollars. You can stop using them to "defend" me and I will stop paying for them.

Second, I do not "vacation" in Israel. I protest by not visting Israel. I would not accept an all-expense-paid trip to Israel, I do not want to visit. I am very unhappy with the Israeli government, and the religious groups in Israel. I would feel unwelcome there in any case.

I don't care if you don't like me. You have shown yourself by your comments here to be someone not worth being liked by. So, keep your death-defying defense of my right to visit a place I am not interested in and I will keep the money I earn here in the states, which would be better used here.

You might also want to explain, if you can, why Israel should receive three billion dollars a year of US money. I am having a lot of trouble understanding the justification for it.

[Yaakov]

Jewish Cynic:

Your rhetoric is quite orthodox. Your invocation of moral equivalence reveals that you are not actual arguing against what I have been saying but a straw man. What I have actual written here does not suggest moral equivalence, which is a code word designed to cut off debate, rather it demands that this is not a zero sum game.

While I have pointed out that the two sides have different (while similar) behaviors, I have also pointed out that the moral high ground that Israel once claimed has eroded under it. First of all, the point about zero sum game is this: each side is 100% responsible for its own actions.

For example, if one side indiscriminately kills civilians it does not justify, nor excuse in any way, the other side doing the same, or even being less concerned about killing civilians in operations it undertakes. The sins of one side in no way ameliorate the sins of the other, even "smaller versions" of those sins.

This has nothing to do with "moral equivalence". It has to do with the inherent responsibility for a supposedly moral state to act morally. So tossing around code words intended to tar my argument might convince the partisans but it doesn't impress me, it has nothing at all to do with my position.

Second, since when do you think that the "honor" of the Palestinians is more important to them than a peaceful, prosperous life? Since when do you care about "insulting" them? Your rhetorical invocation of "flat screen TVs and nice cars" is another example of mere sophistry. How about safety for their children, the possibility of a peaceful future with enough food, clothing, and shelter of decent quality; reliable electricity and the freedom to engage in commerce? We are not talking about a welfare program, we are talking about allowing them to be normal as they once were. And, I have personal knowledge that the once-middle-class of the Palestinians would be quite willing to return to it. The idea that their "honor" would prevent them is just plain nonsense.

Surely, there are those among the Palestinians who, like their Jewish counterparts in the settlements, consider land more important than human life. They are a minority, and if there was something to fight for (a better life for themselves and their children) the Palestinians who are not among the zealots would do it (see: Arab Spring).

So you can keep your simple-minded rhetoric. I am not the straw man you would like me to be. If you actually read what I wrote instead assuming you know what it says you'd find there is a lot more nuance than your "rebuttal" addresses.

[No Light]

I watched a documentary yesterday. In it, people were talking about the need to protect their country at any cost.

The country was not originally theirs. It had a different name, different religion, different borders. They partitioned the land piece by piece, until descendants of the few original citizens who had managed to somehow survive mass murder were shunted into primitive encampments lacking facilities, and treated as foreigners in their own land.

Anyway, the protagonists of the film supported violent military action to quell certain religious groups. No action was considered too extreme, after all, these people posed a huge threat to the country, an enemy within. Plans to disallow them voting rights, education, access to employment, and homes were discussed. Other ideas included keeping them in tightly controlled territories with military checkpoints.

They had other "threats" too, such as black people, generic Arabic people, secular people and especially "liberals". They spoke out against feminism and social justice, citing a woman's place as keeping house and bearing as many babies as possible, all the better to outnumber their enemies.

Killing was justifiable if there was suspicion of an attempt to "destroy [their] bloodline", which happens when girls and women date the Other.

They marched, demonstrated, prayed and sang of a future where their ideas held sway. They discussed the significance of certain numbers and symbols. They even talked (oddly enough!) about the New World Order, Rothschilds, Trilateral Commission etc, during their discussion of a Holy War.

A racial Holy War, or RaHoWa. I believe the film was called "White Power USA" .

Filmed undercover to expose plans to keep Jews (the "enemy within") under military control, in order to scare them into submission. Showing their intent to violently terrorise black people, Arabs, secular people, and even mainstream Christians, into accepting that the Old Testament clearly shows the white man as
natural ruler over all, imbued with a higher soul, meant by God to prepare the world for the coming of a Messianic Era.

It was honestly terrifying. I'm not. naive or unexperienced enough to think that the UK doesn't also have such despicable organisations hiding in plain sight, but they're banned from police and army roles as soon as they're discovered (apparently fascist ideology in official military/justice roles is protected speech in the US) so they can't stockpile guns and explosives, or use their power to enforce their beliefs, like their American comrades do.

Watching that, then coming here today, was jarring beyond belief. They claimed that past atrocities committed in their name were propaganda, smears, libel. They insisted that victims of their violence were all linked to powerful forces in the "Jew World Order", that innocent civilians were never harmed, that there was no such thing as an innocent Jew/POC/Arab, that their sons would kidnap and rape young white women, rob them of their "purity", impregnate and enslave them. Apparently this was a real issue in places like "Jew York City", where Jews are numerous, and often "disguised" as white men. Better to keep young women at home, homeschooling them, protecting them from a "liberal agenda" that would see them lured to "Jewniversities" and indoctrinated out of their beliefs by exposure to higher education.

There are no winners when hatred, mistrust and violence are used as tools of indoctrination. Everyone loses out. Tit for tat for tit for tat for this for that, until nobody knows why they're fighting, only that their side is right.

Monsters are made, not born. For every finger someone points, three are pointing back. Extrapolated to the Nth degree and viewed at the macro level, the pointed fingers are linked like some ghastly family tree of human stupidity and tribalism, more suited for prehistory than the Digital Age (pun intended).

Religion, with it's bizarre notions of purity and superiority, drives this continued idiocy. Belief has a body count. Take any two humans, they'll be more similar than they are different, but bring belief into it and the differences become all that there is.

Mindless, pointless, barbaric stupidity. All of it.
.

[Yaakov]

No Light:

This is the darkest side of human society. We readily acknowledge the "mythology" of the other while claiming what we have is "Truth". The irony is completely lost on the subscribers to any of the various orthodoxies around today.

Religious orthodoxies, that is, those who's tenets have no chance of being disproved because they don't have any testability are the most dangerous. To be sure, the scientific world has its damaging orthodoxies but those can be excised, and generally are eventually.

Religious orthodoxies, though, coming as they do "from the Creator" or his appointed representative claim, as their domain, all things including human life. Ironically, a common feature of nearly every religious orthodoxy is a lack of compassion. Some focus on mechanical compassion for the fellow, none have more than convenient compassion for the other.

I hasten to add there are some examples (e.g.: Baha'i) that do not follow the normal pattern and don't pose a threat to non-adherents. But mostly, a religious orthodoxy is a dangerous and inhumane thing, all the more so when it claims inherent humanity since that makes it immune to reform.

Religion, per se, is not inherently bad. Religious orthodoxy, particularly pietistic purity cults with retrospective philosophy are. Judaism has the potential to be something different than it currently is, but that potential may never be realized. I know with certainty it won't happen in my lifetime.

[No Light]

I fear it will never happen. I hope I'm proved wrong.

[Box]

Too bad they didn't leave all three in a coma!

[Eli, what me messiah?]

Yaakov, nice answer to Jewish Cynic. Israel is a modern state (at least for now), and it is right to hold it to the moral standards applied to any other modern state. At times it seems like the standard being applied is that of small children who are fighting. ("he hit me first!" "but you hit me HARDER!" "that's because you hit me below the belt!")

[Eli, what me messiah?]

NL,
thanks for the wonderful post, which I hope God (is not amused) will also read. You had me going... I was trying to guess which country, and was not expecting the answer. Scary.
The talk of these groups about the Rothchilds, Trilateral Commission, etc, is nothing less than broad paranoid delusions, of people parking their brains and letting themselves get fooled into thinking the "elites" are really out to get them.

[Korbendallas72]

The talk of these groups about the Rothchilds, Trilateral Commission, etc, is nothing less than broad paranoid delusions, of people parking their brains and letting themselves get fooled into thinking the "elites" are really out to get them.

Posted by: Eli, what me messiah? | August 27, 2012 at 06:17 AM

You really should pay more attention.

[Eli, what me messiah?]

Korb, please don't tell me YOU believe in this crap, too?
I mean, you can be out there on some things, but you're not THAT out there.

[No Light]

Eli - as I was watching it, my eyebrows were inching so high that I thought they'd end up on the back of my head.

KD and GINA - so you believe in a shadowy collective of Zionist agents, planning the NWO/OWG? And if so, what of self-dubbed Messiah David Icke's claim about the lizards, and their involvement? Don't forget about the symbolic nature of the owl.

I hope LaC pops in. with his spin on it. I'm going to c&p the conspiracy rantings into an email to the commissioning editor of C4 comedy.

[Yaakov]

Personally, I believe that people with great wealth and power do everything they can to maintain and increase it. The limits of what they allow themselves vary, of course, with people, place, and time.

However, one of the basic flaws in these grand conspiracy theories is motive. Why would these people want to kill the goose that lays the golden egg? Their power and wealth depends on a vital and active consumer economy. It is to their advantage to have the largest, most prosperous middle class that can be sustained. They will make more money in that situation.

The second major flaw is ability. No matter how much their wealth and power, controlling a system with as many degrees of freedom as the world's economy is a non-starter. What they can, and do accomplish is surfing it. They ride the waves and stay on top of them. The opportunistically take advantage of local effects, and exercise some local control. But they cannot and do not manipulate the world's economy, it wouldn't work any more than Leninism did.

[Korbendallas72]

I'm not a coincidence theorist, if that's what you're asking. Truth is stranger than fiction and people have been dumbed down. You don't think the entire world is against the Jews completely organically, do you?

[Korbendallas72]

Yaacov - Your argument displays a fundamental misunderstanding of monetary theory and the current state of affairs with fiat currency. They already have all the money - US Dollars are infinite imaginary digits. They're like arcade tokens for unwitting Americans.