Judge Allows 10-Year-Old Jewish Girl To Convert To Christianity Against Her Mother’s Wishes

A British judge has ruled that a 10-year-old Jewish girl can convert to Christianity despite her mother's strong objections.

 

Judge Allows 10-Year-Old Jewish Girl To Convert To Christianity Against Her Mother’s Wishes
Shmarya Rosenberg • FailedMessiah.com

A British judge has ruled that a 10-year-old Jewish girl can convert to Christianity despite her mother's strong objections.

The girl – who cannot be named due to her age – will join her father’s Christian church despite the strong objection of her mother, the Telegraph reported.

The girl’s parents, both born Jews, divorced in 2010 and share custody of the child.

The girl’s father converted to Christianity after his divorce.

Judge John Platt reportedly told the girl in a letter that, “…My job is to decide simply what is best for you and I have decided that the best thing for you is that you are allowed to start your baptism classes as soon as they can be arranged and that you are baptised as a Christian as soon as your minister feels you are ready.…Finally, and this is the most important thing, both your mother and father will carry on loving you just as much whatever happens about your baptism.”

The girl's father told the court that the girl claimed to have “experienced an encounter with God” after attending a Christian festival.

The girl’s mother claimed the father stopped the girl from practicing Judaism while the girl's grandparents accused the girl's father of forcing her to give up her Jewishness. A rabbi testified that it would be “unnatural to their soul” to make a child switch religions.

The judge was reportedly enraged by these claims, responding that the mother and the grandparents had not made “any real effort” to do what was best for the girl. And the rabbi’s letter, the judge said, was written in “inflammatory terms without [giving] any supporting evidence.”

He was also angered because the girl's mother went to court without first discussing the conversion with her ex-husband or his priest, calling her actions "wholly wrong."

The judge noted that he had no power to order the girl to be baptized, but he did have the power to dismiss the girl's mothers petition to stop it.

Comments

[Chicago Sam]

Yoel said,"And what does this language issue have to do with Chabad? or Chareidi? that is beyond me. Unless you mean to say their language usage is so poor they think the word is an insult."

Good question, but Chabad's attitude about the "goy" is plainly stated in the end of Ch.2 of Tanya. According to Chabad folklore, when the Alter Rebbe (Rabbi Shenair Zalman of Liadi) was arrested for charges of treason against Russia, the czar and the old rabbi got a long quite well. Among the other charges listed against the rabbi, was the statement about gentiles in Ch. 2 of Tanya. When asked, the Rebbe merely smiled, as if to say, "You really don't want me to answer that question do you?" The Russian Judge dropped the issue.

Chabad and other Hassidic types do not have a high view of gentiles. To be perfectly honest, since so many of them lived through some dark chapters of Jewish history in Europe, e.g., the pogroms and the Shoah, it is not hard to understand where they were coming from.

However, in the U.S., people--for the most part--are pretty decent; although the shooting at the Sikh Temple that killed many people proves that we too have our own crazies. Thank God, they are a minority.

The terms Shegetz and Shiksa are certainly pejorative expressions and should not be used.

[Yoel Mechanic]

>Good question, but Chabad's attitude about the "goy" is plainly stated in the end of Ch.2 of Tanya.

This is not relevant in any way to what I was discussing. I am clearly confining my discussion to the intrinsic meaning, and historical usage of the word goy. I have clearly demonstrated that use of this word does not carry negative meaning, or insult.

Your discussion, about social attitudes towards goyim (eg. other nationals) is a separate disussion, unrelated to the word goy or goyah. I hope you will be understanding that I currently am not interested in that discussion (perhaps for another day).

This issue only came up, looking back, because of a mis-comment someone made about the word goy. I've said what I think needed to be said, and wanted to confine myself only to that topic.

As I said already, Shiksah (and therefore Shaigetz too, of course) are intrinsically insults. But once again, because of naivenss and ignorance, a lot of times the speaker *thinks* these are the proper and polite term, and that goy and goyah are the insulting terms. I have already explained that this is backwards, and I think it would be more productive on educating people about the history, and proper usage than to try to add further cloudiness and obfuscation to this issue by talking about social attitudes of some of the speakers who commonly do use the word goy.

[Ynot]

Eli,

I read the article that was linked to the write-up.

Some of the evangelical cults target both Jews and mainline Christians.

I am not certain exactly how this works, but I have a relative who married a mainline Christian wife and did not need baptism. The Jewish equivalent was recognized. He could worship in either religion.

That raises another question. Why can't she worship with both parents? I don't condone the father's hard line attitude. Sounds like the father and daughter were targeted by a cult.

[Eli, what me messiah?]

Ynot,
Barry posted a link to the judgment, which is complete in providing relevant details.
And I agree with you. the judge said she could worship with both parents but the father is becoming a fundamentalist, which makes respect for another religion likely impossible

[Jeff]

If the father is a fundie, they'll spend the next ten years filling her head with so much garbage she'll probably never get out.

[Yoel Mechanic]

If the father is a fundie, they'll spend the next ten years filling her head with so much garbage she'll probably never get out.

Posted by: Jeff | August 06, 2012 at 04:51 PM
---------------------------
well, at least you are an equal-opportunity fundie antagonist. but also consider: there *are* non-fundie individuals in Chabad, and other typical Chareidi groups. There are non-meshichist members in Chabad too. Unfortunately there are people who want to deny this for several different reasons.

[WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar]

Yoel, if your daily appearance is a black hat with oversized brim, a beard that makes you look like you haven't taken your meds, a black suit and a white shirt, than you are a 'fundie' and any child you raise will have serious psychological issues when they step foot outside of the ghetto.

[Jeff]

there *are* non-fundie individuals in Chabad

No there aren't. There are no non-fundamentalists within the Haredi world (apart, of course, from those who no longer believe and are merely "passing"). I'd probably classify most Right Wing MO as fundies. The "Centrists" may constitute a gray area, but I still don't want to talk to them.

The only Orthodox I wouldn't consider to be fundies are the Left Wing MO, and most Orthodox don't even consider them part of the club.

[Jeff]

And what WSC said.

[Ynot]

Eli,

I read the court order, although quickly.

I am confused in that the Telegraph article says evangelical and the court order mentions Christian and Anglican. They are different from each other.

Regardless of which religion, what the father did to the mother and to the children, by exposing them, is very cruel.

The father should have had more respect for the feelings of the mother and all four grandparents, and waited until the girl was old enough to make her own decision.

The mother must feel terrible right now.

At least the judge told the girl that she is Jewish and is free to go back to Judaism should she choose. If it is the Anglicans she can do so anytime she wants. If it is the evangelicals they may need the cult deprogrammers.

PS: Woolsilkcotton. Reference to the ghetto not funny. Forced conversion and taking children from mothers was a Nazi practice.

[WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar]

Ynot, take a hike with your nazi bullshit.

I agree the father was a jerk for having the child go through a formal conversion, no doubt to spite his ex-wife, but I have no problem with the child attending church with her father and a synagogue with her mother.

And Ynot, this is just for you!
NAZI NAZI NAZI NAZI NAZI NAZI NAZI NAZI NAZI
HOLOCAUST HOLOCAUST HOLOCAUST HOLOCAUST HOLOCAUST
AUSCHWITZ AUSCHWITZ AUSCHWITZ AUSCHWITZ AUSCHWITZ
GAS CHAMBER GAS CHAMBER GAS CHAMBER GAS CHAMBER

[Ynot]

Oh really, you have no problem with a 10 year old girl being forced to worship a false messiah.

The father is a complete jerk.

Your terminology needs a lot of refinement. Study your history, about 2 million megatons of allied bombings worth.

[Yoel Mechanic]

>No there aren't. There are no non-fundamentalists within the Haredi world

As some are fond of saying on this blog: this is the no true Scottsman fallacy

[Eli, what me messiah?]

Ynot, we agree the father is a jerk. And the mom played the wrong hand by asking a Chabad rabbi to give her a letter full of silly drivel about the soul. (how's a judge even supposed to consider that? "ok, I order we bring this girl in and inspect her soul! have my clerk get me the cellphone number of Cardinal Richelieu immediately!")
and a word of advice: WSC is pretty damn witty. Resistance is futile. Go with it.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Eli, thanks!

My 'Holocaust cred' is second to no one, and I offer no apologies regarding whatever I choose to say about the Holocaust.

Bringing the Holocaust into this thread was wholly inappropriate by Ynot. The Jews do not have sole rights to the term 'ghetto', and it has no Jewish connotation when used in a non-Holocaust discussion, unless, ironically, you are mentally trapped in one.

Furthermore, where or what the child worships is not a problem to me, as long as she is not being manipulated by her parents who are using her as a pawn in their ongoing acrimony. Unfortunately, she is being manipulated, and now you can add the clergy who want to formally convert her.
Nevertheless, the judge is right. Eventually, when she reaches the age where she can make her own informed choice, she will go with a religion and denomination that offer her the spirituality and solace that we all seek from religion.

All religions offer spirituality and solace, if properly approached and applied. What truly matters is her eventual peace of mind, coming to terms with this tumultuous period in her life, and- yes- her happiness.

Whether she finds it in Judaism or Christianity, and whichever denomination, is ultimately her choice, and not mine or anyone else's.

False messiah? The Christian theology is no better or worse than the Jewish theology. There are Christian theologians who are as compelling and convincing with their speaking and writing as any Jewish theologian. You can find comfort and inspiration in a Christian service just as well as you can in a Jewish one. What you get out of a service is directly proportional to what you put in. If you don't think so, it's your problem, not mine or the child's .

[Eli, what me messiah?]

WSC, as we've traveled similar paths, I'm a little surprised at your deference to the judge on this. That the mother made a dumb argument and relied on a loopy rabbi's letter (that clearly pissed off the judge) doesn't make the dad right.
The kid was basically growing up in an open-minded environment pre-divorce. It's religion vs. non-religion, and it's pretty clear there's some manipulation going on by the dad.
the judge didn't just allow the baptism, but also altered the parents' visitation schedule so that the daughter could attend Sunday church services with her father, which the judge justified by noting that her absence would allow mom to spend more quality time with her sibling.
so dad played the religion card on his daughter, and the judge went with it.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Eli, we may never know the full context of how this played out in front of the judge. I assume he had dealt with this couple in other divorce-related matters. Possibly, the husband came off as the level-headed sensible one.
Putting an end to a seemingly endless conflict, this time over religion, was not a bad idea.
Someone is always unhappy with every divorce decision by a judge.

[Yoel Mechanic]

False messiah? The Christian theology is no better or worse than the Jewish theology. There are Christian theologians who are as compelling and convincing with their speaking and writing as any Jewish theologian. You can find comfort and inspiration in a Christian service just as well as you can in a Jewish one. What you get out of a service is directly proportional to what you put in.
========================================

One can find the same or similar social features, and similar emotional benefits;

But I would like to point out the difference in the theology. The difference is that Christian theology is based on the Greek NT, and is often at odds with the Hebrew Tenach. The main difference is on sin and atonement (Christians do not accept the idea of Yom Kippur, nor they accept the idea that one can substitute prayer, as in Rosh Chodesh, as a substitution for animal sacrifice. Rather the NT says you *must* have the blood of an unblemished "lamb" in the form of a "messiah" who sacrifices his life. This is distinctly different from the Hebrew bible, and distinctly different for any current version of Judaism (including Chabad). Differences over who the messiah is is not the issue at all: if you examine the theology you will see total disagreement over *what* the messiah is, and what the messiah's role in history actually is. Moreover, the Christian view does not come from any accepted Jewish source, but comes completely from the New Testament.

There is no reason to fight over this. Different religions... just get a long. However, I think one should not just lump em all together.

If necessary, I can give a whole string of a 2000 year history of Christian scholars who have written extensively on the differences of the NT and "OT"-sic. There should be no surprise here.

[Ynot]

Putting the religious issues aside for a minute.

The mother may be afraid the father gets remarried and she loses touch with her children in the process.

Yoel, there are a lot of interpretations to history... None are completely right. I am not getting into this to avoid a doctoral thesis nobody wants to read.

[Yoel Mechanic]

>I am not getting into this to avoid a doctoral thesis nobody wants to read.

You're on that level?

[Jeff]

The mother may be afraid the father gets remarried and she loses touch with her children in the process.

There may very well be another woman involved, and she might have drawn the father into Christianity. I've seen it time and time again.

[Ynot]

Yes. And being a male I would not be surprised. These type of things seem to usually be the man's fault.

[JSalamea]

We should not be upset b/c this girl became a Christian due to “experienced an encounter with G’d”. Who are we to judged that she did not experience something godly? Didn’t G created the whole universe? And why do we doubt her. Does it means that we ordinary person that have time sets for prayer and read the Holy Scriptures on the daily basic with a sincere heart cannot experience anything. Does G see us and cannot approach us because He see us (we are tough) like a deadly virus or bacteria? I believe that we humans (the creation) cannot comprehend the holiness of G, so we start putting barriers and thresholds so that we can manipulate G’s desires and love towards us his creation. Rather that let the Holy Scriptures guide us (Tehillim 119:105). What I stated means that we don’t need Rabbis? Absolutely not true. We do need teachers; leaders and we do need great men of G. But we need to pray and read the Holy Scriptures daily so we don’t get fool (Hôshēa‘ 4: 06). Remember the same G our creator is the Christians G. Christians believe in Moshe, Avraham, Yitsẖak, Yitsẖak and whole Tanach. We should not criticize this little girl and father, what we should do is to ask G the Hebrew G’d to help us experience an encounter with him. If G was still able to speak to Adam after the sin in Gan ʿEdhen , still bless Noach after his nakeness, maintain His promises wit the nation of Israel after the golden calf at Moshe Mountain, bless David after murdering Uriah the Hittite and fornicating with Bath Shebhath, etc. There are many, many stories in the Holy Scriptures regarding G’s mercy and compassion towards His creation. Let use Gid'on examples, request affirmation that He stills the G that could show that He is real like the girls form the news.

[Yoel Mechanic]

http://www.outreachjudaism.org/

Download the "Let's Get Biblical" audio lectures. Very nice, very informative and insightful. A lot of what he says is also some good social commentary and relevant to a lot of situations. He is informative, and shows how you can discuss issues without only doing the "antimissionary polemic hand wringing thing"