Judge Allows 10-Year-Old Jewish Girl To Convert To Christianity Against Her Mother’s Wishes

A British judge has ruled that a 10-year-old Jewish girl can convert to Christianity despite her mother's strong objections.

 

Judge Allows 10-Year-Old Jewish Girl To Convert To Christianity Against Her Mother’s Wishes
Shmarya Rosenberg • FailedMessiah.com

A British judge has ruled that a 10-year-old Jewish girl can convert to Christianity despite her mother's strong objections.

The girl – who cannot be named due to her age – will join her father’s Christian church despite the strong objection of her mother, the Telegraph reported.

The girl’s parents, both born Jews, divorced in 2010 and share custody of the child.

The girl’s father converted to Christianity after his divorce.

Judge John Platt reportedly told the girl in a letter that, “…My job is to decide simply what is best for you and I have decided that the best thing for you is that you are allowed to start your baptism classes as soon as they can be arranged and that you are baptised as a Christian as soon as your minister feels you are ready.…Finally, and this is the most important thing, both your mother and father will carry on loving you just as much whatever happens about your baptism.”

The girl's father told the court that the girl claimed to have “experienced an encounter with God” after attending a Christian festival.

The girl’s mother claimed the father stopped the girl from practicing Judaism while the girl's grandparents accused the girl's father of forcing her to give up her Jewishness. A rabbi testified that it would be “unnatural to their soul” to make a child switch religions.

The judge was reportedly enraged by these claims, responding that the mother and the grandparents had not made “any real effort” to do what was best for the girl. And the rabbi’s letter, the judge said, was written in “inflammatory terms without [giving] any supporting evidence.”

He was also angered because the girl's mother went to court without first discussing the conversion with her ex-husband or his priest, calling her actions "wholly wrong."

The judge noted that he had no power to order the girl to be baptized, but he did have the power to dismiss the girl's mothers petition to stop it.

Comments

[Bary]

Whether she converts now or later is immaterial, she is a lost soul. This is a job for Chabad to seek her out and try to show her the way, but with a Christian as her father it will be tough.

You win some, you lose some, that's life.

[Michel]

It doesn't really matter. The girl can do what she wants, she is still a Jew and will remain so. Her children will be Jews, and any female children she has will give birth to Jews. They may forget who they are, but Hashm never will.

[Jeff]

Whether she converts now or later is immaterial, she is a lost soul. This is a job for Chabad to seek her out and try to show her the way, but with a Christian as her father it will be tough.

Yeah, I really don't think Chabad is the right organization to be appealed to to dissuade someone from worshiping a dead guy as messiah.

[ruthie]

doesn't matter. g-d understands.
i wish her well and if she's happy...she's lucky

[Pierre]

Looks like her mother has her work cut out for her.

[Jake in Jerusalem]

The question is: would the British judge also allow a 10-year old girl to convert from Christianity to Judaism? Or would he be laughed out of the British courthouse for suggesting something like that?

[ruthie]

who cares?
there are two obvious answers to that.
in any case, if the girl is happy...that's all that matters.

[Manny]

who cares?
there are two obvious answers to that.
in any case, if the girl is happy...that's all that matters.

Posted by: ruthie | August 05, 2012 at 07:57 AM

How true. At least Shmarya has something to write about and "appears" to be gainfully "employed".

[Dave]

Jake in Jerusalem, exactly right!
Jeff, I agree with you- in that case she'd be exchanging one avodah zarah for another.

[Jeff]

How true. At least Shmarya has something to write about and "appears" to be gainfully "employed".

Posted by: Manny | August 05, 2012 at 08:04 AM

Tell you what - why don't you guys clean up your collective act and put him out of business?

[Crickets chirping]

Yeah, that's what I thought.

[ultra haredi lite]

"If the girl is happy.....that's all that matters"
-Ruthie

Utter genius!

Parenting 101

[ruthie]

ultra haredi lite

you literally took what i said ultralite!!
do you think i think that's all that matters?
my point is...she's hurting, from a broken family and looking for peace of mind, security and less hurt. if changing her religion will make her happy and help her continue being a good person and getting a great education then yes, if the girl is happy...that's all that matters.

[Yerachmiel Lopin]

The subtext of the judges comments is that the mother and the maternal grandparents were lousy family members in various ways. The rabbi was a moron for arguing in a civil court about the welfare of her soul, however strongly many of us feel about that.

For the father and then the daughter to go Christian suddenly is most unusual and suggests something awry beforehand.

Naturally there are suddenly screams about British courts. But my guess is they would have handled the case the same way if it involved Christians who suddenly went Jewish with the same constellation of custody and family history and issues.

I suspect a series of sad stories leading up to this event, but I doubt the court is to blame.

[Rebitzman]

Whether an intermarriage ends in divorce or not - this is a crossroads that is reached if they have children unless one or both of them are willing to set aside their own beliefs and faith.

Only unexpected tragedy here is that the kid had to choose one parent over the other.....at age 10.

Some really stupid, really selfish people in the world.

And ruthie, do you REALLY think the girl is "happy" knowing that she just knifed her mom? Do you really think she's happy having been given the choice at age 10 NOT of Jew or Christian, but of Daddy or Mommy?

[Sarah]

Good Luck to her. I hope over time she is able to develop a relationship with her mother.

[Apostate]

Hopefully, when she's old enough to make her own decisions and think for herself, she will clear ALL of the useless dogma out of her head.

[ruthie]

rebitzman,

no, i'm sure there's pain there. that's why i want to add happiness to the ingredients already in her life.
only this point.....only her conversion..if THIS makes her happy...good. let her be good and and go after a great education for herself.

[seymour]

A rabbi testified that it would be “unnatural to their soul” to make a child switch religions.

this is a idiotic comment and could have doomed the case

I guess according to a kid cannot t be a ger

[seymour]

when person coverts from Judaisms do they need to covert back if they decide to come back

Orthodox
reform
conservative

I would hope the judge would have said let wait until she think for herself or when she is let say 16

[Bassy the Haredi Slayer]

Why the mother had a rabbi talks about souls in the court? Rabbis can be expert witness in matter of shaatnez, the colour of menstruation blood but not expert witness on child welfare. 

Not sure why our supreme leader did not mention that the rabbi in question is rabbi Odom Brandman of Chabbad of Buckurst Hill

[ultra haredi lite]

Seymour,
No conversion is necessary.

[ultra haredi lite]

Ruthie,
And if a major overdose of candy would make her happy in the moment...

[WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar]

All the major religions offer spirituality, a 'personal relationship' with God, beautiful philosophies and teachings from generations ago, wise leaders whose words can be enthralling, and stories from the past of miracles done by their heros.

Judaism, Christianity, Islam, blah blah blah, they're all about the same. Add a twist here and there. And they all have clergy who can debate and convince you that they're right and that other religions aren't.

The girl's parents have their own personal issues, and are using them to lash out at each other, and trying to use the child to their advantage. The same story plays out every day in matrimonial court.

[WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar]

I agree with Ruthie that the most important thing for this child is to immediately have some peace of mind (i.e. happiness) regarding all this religious turmoil.

The words of the judge summed it up perfectly.

I urge everyone commenting here to sit in the gallery in your local county matrimonial court and observe what goes on over the course of a few days.

[dh]

I agree with Rebitzman. And I don't agree that a ten year old's happiness is all that is paramount despite getting a good education. Let them go to court and fight about that. The judge was a jerk. If he was in need of other or further info he should have ordered that he be provided that, not punish the maternal relatives and by virtue of that punish the girl.

Also, gasp! I don't agree with Jeff. Chabad could be less jarring if she journeys away from the babtism gig to the mikva gig.

[Jeff]

Also, gasp! I don't agree with Jeff. Chabad could be less jarring if she journeys away from the babtism gig to the mikva gig.

Posted by: dh | August 05, 2012 at 09:50 AM

Frankly, dh, I'd rather see someone become a liberal Christian than a fundamentalist Jew.

Unfortunately, as the father is talking about an "encounter with God", he's probably fallen under the spell of evangelicals.

[dh]

Why?

[dh]

Oops. I read your post incorrectly. Thought you said you'd rather see her be a fundie christian than fundie Jew.

[Pierre]

Do you really think she's happy having been given the choice at age 10 NOT of Jew or Christian, but of Daddy or Mommy?

Posted by: Rebitzman | August 05, 2012 at 08:40 AM

Very wise! At 10 she is not choosing between Judaism and Christianity but between mommy and daddy and it appears that she is "daddy's girl".

[SkepticalYid]

Posted by: Rebitzman | August 05, 2012 at 08:40 AM

She wasn't given a choice of mommy or daddy. They may vey well still share full joint custody. Based on the judge's comments, it's entirely possible that they were never observant Jewa to begin with. It's a bit hypocritical for mom and the grandparents to make a fuss now, if they'd never cared about their own religion much.

[Maskil]

Next year it will be a 10 year old who wants to convert against the wishes of both parents. The kid will grow up happy being part of the majority. But the precedent is frightening.

[WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar]

++Rebitzman | August 05, 2012 at 08:40 AM++

Many excellent points, of which I agree and disagree:

"...one or both of them are willing to set aside their own beliefs and faith..."
In an acrimonious divorce, each side hardens their position, and religion is a favorite battle ground, and the child is the battle field.

"...unexpected tragedy here is that the kid had to choose one parent over the other.....at age 10..."

It's not unexpected. Matrimonial judges allow kids that age to voice their opinions as to which parent they prefer to live with, and the judge will give that child's opinion a lot of weight.

The vast majority of divorces end up with the mother getting physical custody. A woman really really has to come across as very unfit and mentally disturbed in order to lose custody. I suspect that was the case here, even before religion entered the picture.

"...Some really stupid, really selfish people in the world..."

You'll meet lots of them in matrimonial court.

"...she just knifed her mom..."

Nonsense. The mother set it up that way. Stop putting your child in an impossible position, and then making your child feel bad about the decision they reach. Mother's failure to understand this is probably one of the reasons she lost custody.

"...Do you really think she's happy having been given the choice at age 10 NOT of Jew or Christian, but of Daddy or Mommy..."

I'm sure the child is relieved to get away from her wacko mother.

[Pierre]

it's entirely possible that they were never observant Jewa to begin with.

I took it for granted that they, or at least ne of them, was haredi. If not why the post? There are countless cases of people going in and out of Judaism and Christianity. This site is all about haredim and chabad.

[WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar]

"But the precedent is frightening."

Maskil, is it really FRIGHTENING? Religion is just a bunch of stuff you think about. There is no proof of anything, and you can change your mind again any time. God will not strike you dead for changing religions. And the vast majority of people on this planet have no interest in being ultra-orthodox Jews.

[David W. Ruben]

wow

[dh]

She's TEN. She's probably also had an encounter with Cinderella.

[yuk]

Haredism. Chasidism. Yeshivishism is all a made up jewish religion so what difference does it make if she piccks another fake religion. Its all a farce. So the judge feels that she should do what makes her happy

[Maskil]

WSC, I could respond to your comment, but you presented that perspective so well (and so succintly!) that pointing out another side will not detract from the validity of what you wrote.

That being said, I still stand by my initial statement.

[grandpa]

Whether she converts now or later is immaterial, she is a lost soul. This is a job for Chabad to seek her out and try to show her the way, but with a Christian as her father it will be tough.

You win some, you lose some, that's life.

Posted by: Bari
This looks like a job for yes you guessed it
LaC

[Chicago Sam]

Life is a series of rebirths, I would not be surprised to see this young person rediscover her Jewish roots when she is of a more independent mind.

As is often the case, the problem is probably related to how the young girl relates to her mother--in psychological terms, it is a case of the Electra-Complex.

[Fleishike Kishke]

It's all a hill of beans. Fairy Tale 1 Fairy Tale 2. Straight parents have gay kids, religious parents have secular kids. When the girl grows up she'll choose for herself. Hail Jesus Schneerson.

[dh]

Well, ok. But if a little girl has an "encounter " with Snow White you don't send her off to live with the Dwarfs. If she grows up thinking she is a Dwarf it's not so easy to become un-dwarfed.

[A. Nuran]

According to some versions of Christian mythology she became a Christian the moment she decided to. No judge or conversion classes necessary.

[ruthie]

Ruthie,
And if a major overdose of candy would make her happy in the moment...

Posted by: ultra haredi lite | August 05, 2012 at 09:35 AM

now you're being silly. if you don't understand what i'm trying to write....i'm sorry. just skip over my comments

[Yoel Mechanic]

It was a mistake to take this to court.

Now think about what happened in court, and what the judge said. What do you think was going to happen?? Maybe they thought that the judge would automatically side with the mother? In American courts this is the stereotype. The reality??...I dunno. In any event, I think it a mistake to run to the courts in these matters. People should be able to settle things themselves better

[WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar]

Yoel, what you say makes perfect sense.

If people used menschlichkeit, as well as thinking through the potential consequences of their actions, the matrimonial courts would be mostly empty.

[Contente]

Children of divorce generally experience loyalty issues, over time leaning towards one parent, then the other. The parents in this case appear to be using their child as a weapon to hurt one another, a far too common occurrence in divorce. Throwing fundamentalist religion of any stripe into the picture produce an ugly stew. Sadly, the child loses.

[Office of the Chief Rabbi]

I had a 14 year old girl show up in my shul once who wanted to convert to Judaism. I envisioned the end process: "Hey little girl, we're going to the mikveh now where you'll take off all your clothes for us." I decided that the age of religious majority in Judaism is irrelevant, and that all conversion candidates needed to be 18.

But goyyim don't get naked for their baptisms, do they?

[Eli, what me messiah?]

The judge was ridiculously superficial, helped by an idiot rabbi who wrote about the "soul" instead of the girl's history and connectedness with community. What was he smoking?
And equally insensitive are the in shallah comments that god will know or Chabad will save her.
The point is not christianity vs Judaism but consistency in the girl's life during the parents' divorce. This "conversion" is the father's way of alienating his daughter from her mother and her family. And the judge should have engaged in a different sort of inquiry, not looking to her wishes but what would best serve her interests, starting with protecting her from being manipulated by one of her parents.

[Sarah]

Office of the Chief rabbi.... You are very rude.
The use of the word goyyim is very insulting.
If you do any reading you may will not need to answer if they "get naked for their baptisms'

[No Light]

Chicago Sam - you're disgusting.

To the rest of the Idiot Chorus - the UK is not America, where children are owned by their parents until the age of 18.

Children can be given agency to decide for themselves in medical or legal matters. In legal cases like this, as long as they can make their own case, understand the consequences and meaning of their decision, and are not wanting to engage in harmful, illegal or immoral acts, then their choice is their own.

Medically speaking, children. are entitled to privacy, and can consent to, or refuse, any treatment or procedure, as long as they can demonstrate a full understanding
of the consequences.

A child cannot be forced to undergo chemotherapy, or a transplant, or anything else. A child who's terminally ill has every right, under British law, to say "I don't want the treatment. I don't want to spend the last six months of my life in hospital, I'd rather have three months at home, just being a kid". Likewise, she can also say "I'd like to postpone the facial surgery until after my exams".

In the medical and legal scenarios the minor is allowed to change their mind. They are not bound legally or medically. If a child wants to move from in-home palliative care to a more curative regimen, and her doctors agree that it could still be of benefit, it'll be done. if the child in this case wishes to revert to Judaism, nobody's stopping her.

Nothing damages children quite as much as being turned on by a parent over an issue that affects the child. Forcing a child to adhere to a religion they do not believe in, or making them have a second transplant or third round of cancer treatment, when all they want to do is die with dignity, is not humane.

Violating their human rights is not likely to result in them loving, trusting and respecting you. After all, if they can't treat huge matters of importance with dignity and wisdom then, in the child's eyes, they can't be .trusted with anything.

Right, to the "Wah it's anti-Semitic" or "It's avodah zara" or "They wouldn't let a kid choose Judaism" parade of Muppets, please try and think. I know you have difficulty with independent thought, but just try. If the Jew, sorry, the SHOE was on the other foot and the child wanted to become orthodox, how would you feel about people saying it was bizarre superstitious crap, and shouldn't be allowed? Hell, at least Christians won't tell her "Sorry kid, we don't want you. You don't have a special soul, go away!"

To the Chucklefuck Circus, throwing out strawmen about children petitioning the court to be allowed to eat their own weight in sweets? You're pretty much beyond hope. You're like a kid having a tantrum. And again, if a child wanted to become Jewish and someone said "What if they want to abolish bedtime or live like a cat? Should we allow that?", you'd be tugging your payes, howling "OY VEY!", and accusing everyone involved of trivialising Judaism. and trying to exterminate you or something equally stupid.

Don't worry, you still have plenty of ten year olds left. Grow up, stop acting as if you, and you alone, deserve special consideration and respect. Does the thought of a happy girl distress you that much?

[catcher50]

I know that this has become a debate about a number of items, with most of those retaining their "traditional" positions.

Did anyone bother to read the Judge's letter (assuming that the article's report is accurate)? This is an obvious statement, indicating that the Judge came in with a bias. His decision certainly does show that he has allowed his personal belief that becoming baptized was the best thing for the girl, is more than a mild indication of that prejudiced.

I strongly suspect that if this case had been tried in the US, that would have been grounds for appeal (well, in the South, it would have required going through the motions to get to a Federal court), and the judge would have been slapped on the wrist for violations of Church State separation.

The proper call would have been to forestall any sort of decision as to baptism, Bat Mitzvah, or anything else, until the young girl reached an age when she was capable of making a more mature decision.

[zionist goy]

Interesting. I know that the late "King" Schneerson would have told this father that he was mentally ill. Not something he would permit for lenghthy discussion when a converted jew went through his recieving lines during dollars for mitvos days. I have wondered if something is missing in judaism, at least in the faith of my jewish acquaintances which includes a Sikh, a Christian minister, a Buddhist monk, and a transcendental meditation teacher. Oh, there is the Reform physician. For all the criticism of Chabad, ( and i have many), there seems to be a cohesiveness there not found in moderate branches. If jews don't hang together, perhaps they will hang separately, if i might borrow a concept from the U.S. revolutionaries.Though i prefer to see Jews remain in the faith of thier ancient heritage, the bottom line is as Michel state; the girl was a jew and will remain a jew.She will give birth to jews. Anti semitic tyrants are proof of that recognition.

[dh]

She's only TEN. She can't form the intent to enter into a contract or consent to sex. But look who she has for guidance ; a bunch of people with their own agenda and bias. No one gives a rat's rear about her.

[Yoel Mechanic]

If people used menschlichkeit, as well as thinking through the potential consequences of their actions, the matrimonial courts would be mostly empty.

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar | August 05, 2012 at 01:50 PM
============================================
Yes, right on. And thanks.

[Eli, what me messiah?]

No Light,
We agree this is not about religion. We disagree after that.
The judge should have engaged in an inquiry of whether the father was using religion to alienate his daughter, maybe even unintentionally.
I said the same thing when Pearlpenny Reich took her kids out of the haredi world. Schn--rson knows I'm not one to advocate the haredi lifestyle, but the move smelled of injecting instability and confusion in the kids' lives instead of continuity.
I also think it's wrong to let a 10 year old dictate their own medical treatment. I'm not so sure many parents should be allowed...

[Yoel Mechanic]

Office of the Chief rabbi.... You are very rude.
The use of the word goyyim is very insulting.
---------------------------------------------
This is unfortunate that misinformation has become so common. Here is the actual usage:

Avraham is promised by G-d to be made into a Goy Gadol (Great nation)

Israel is referred at as a Goy Kodesh (Holy Nation)

Every Shabbat, in the Michchah Amidah everyone will recited that "Israel, Goy Echad" (Israel is The One Nation), best understood to mean "Unique Nation".

Now, how can one possibly think the word Goy is an insult?

Now the reality: through misuse, neglect, and naiveness, a lot of people thing the word goy, or goyah is a negative word. I would prefer that Israel retake ownship of this word as it has been used for thousands of years.

To add insult to injury, there are even many people who not only think that goyah is an insult (it is not) but also think skiksha is the proper word (but *this* word is an insult as the shoresh would indicate).

Therefore a lot of people use the word shikshah completely without intent of insult. That is how mixed up things have become.

Bottom line: the word goy is a plain word. it is not insulting. The word could be used with any intent based on the context it is being used. Sort of like the word American. That would might or might not be an insult based on the rest of the sentence.

[Barry]

The full judgement is at:

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/Misc/2012/15.html

Firstly both parents have joint custody with the child living with her mother.

During the marriage the parents were completely irreligious, working on the Sabbath, not keeping kosher and not attending synagogue.

After divorce the father became Christian while the mother remained irreligious (though she now lights a candle Friday nights). She did not object to the father taking the child to church.

The judge suspects that it is the four grandparents who objected to the child's wish to be baptised on the basis that this one act would somehow cut the child off from her heritage. The judge could see no harm in this action because should she later change her mind she would be welcomed back to Judaism as in the eyes of Jewish law the act of baptism is of no effect. The judge did not like the Chabad Rabbi's claim that this act would be harmful to the soul considering this suggestion inflammatory. The judge took the view that Ruthie took. If it makes her happy why not let her do it and if she later changes her mind, no harm would be done. The judge suspected that the grandparents were more concerned about their own interests than that of the child.

[Russian PhD]

All that happened is the mother’s fault. She could go to her ex’s priest, to talk to him, and to achieve a compromise (e.g., the daughter will attend BOTH Christian and Jewish services and will NOT formally converted until her adulthood or at least late teens). Christian priests will definitely find a compromise-they are intelligent people and not close-minded bigots like Orthodox Rabbis. However, the mother was sure that the Court will on her side. Of course, she is JEWISH, she is poor victim of everybody, and everybody have to her everything. Not the case. Even if the Judge had some prejudice, so what? United Kingdom is a CHRISTIAN country where the Queen is the Head of the State and Head of the Church of this State. Haredim should stop fighting Christianity and Christian values within Christian countries (e.g., to force authorities to remove Christmas trees etc)-they are not their Shteitelach.

[Pierre]

During the marriage the parents were completely irreligious, working on the Sabbath, not keeping kosher and not attending synagogue.

There we have it! The child wanted more religion in her life and she wasn't getting it within the marginal Jewish setting so she figured she would get it in the Christian setting.

Definitely need to visit and spend some time with a chabad shilach and his family to get in touch with her true Jewish roots.

[Rebitzman]

The judge did not like the Chabad Rabbi's claim that this act would be harmful to the soul....

Would not such a claim validate baptism - and by extension, Xtianity?

Interesting point of view for a rabbi.

[No Light]

Barry - I thought as much.

Eli - consider this, totally open mind ok? You have a baby girl. When she's about a year old you're bathing her, and her tummy is swollen. You lift her out of the bath and notice her belly is rock hard. You take her to hospital, and they discover a huge tumour on her kidney. It's a very aggressive form of paediatric cancer that will take at least two rounds of chemo.

Baby spends the next two years in hospital. Her second and third birthdays happen on a cancer ward, the holidays happen there. She's never swum, run on the beach, eaten birthday cake, or played in the mud. She hasn't eaten food for over a year, she has a port in her chest for meds, one in her stomach for nutrition.

Instead of knowing what a party is, or who Spongebob is, she knows what radiotherapy involves, she's seen her friends die. She's almost bisected by a huge scar, she's bald, and skinny, and so pale.

At three and a half years old she's officially declared to be in remission. She only has one kidney left, and it's in poor shape. She gets infections really easily, she needs dialysis, lots of medication, and she needs to learn to be a child.

That's Ellie, btw, my niece. She's six now, but sounds like she's ten. She's at the hospital a lot, she needs to be monitored carefully. if the cancer returns? She'll die. She remembers chemo, radiotherapy. dialysis, watching her little friends die in agony. She's old beyond her years, uncomfortable around healthy, undamaged kids. She's ashamed of her many scars, especially the chest scar she got after a second cardiac arrest involved open heart massage to save her life. She often wonders why she lived and her friends didn't. She sees a therapist regularly.

She knows she has a fair chance of dying. Chemo wouldn't save her. it would only keep her alive a few months longer. The last part of her life could either be six months of doing whatever she wants, whatever she's able to. The hospital would provide medication to control her pain, oxygen if necessary, and round the clock support. She could go to school, the cinema, birthday parties, the park. She could have a puppy, ride her bike, and pass away in her own bed.

Or, doctors could compel her to have treatment. Another eight months of vomiting, tube-feeding, losing her hair, getting sores in her mouth, in isolation to protect her from germs. Then she'd die anyway.

That's why the laws exist. It's not about kids refusing medicine for an ear infection, or. having a tantrum because needles are scary. It's about giving kids like Ellie a chance to live, and die, with dignity and compassion.

[Office of the Chief Rabbi]

Thanks. Yoel M, for coming to my defense against Sarah while I was occupied this afternoon. Heaven forfend that I be perceived as rude.

But as to the ways the various Christian groups practice immersion, I know that there are variants ranging from the trickling of a few sprinkles to full-body public immersions. Really, I am unaware if any of them do their ritual immersion as do we: naked. Sorry, Sarah, if "naked" offends you. I believe with perfect faith that is how my Creator made me.

[Barry]

One needs to read between the lines of this judgement. The mother was not arguing for Judaism but rather for agnosticism and she assumed that an agnostic judge would support her. Most Britishers are agnostic and see religious Christians as a bit eccentric (and religious Jews as totally eccentric).

The mother's unstated case to the judge was that like the judge and her parents and her former parents in law she was not a religious nut but agnostic. Her former husband had after the divorce, unfortunately become a religious nut and she feared her daughter might become just as nuts if she attended baptism classes. She wanted the court to help the chances of her daughter become agnostic like her mother (and the judge) by keeping her away from eccentric Christians.

The judge however was of the view that whilst there was a possibility that the child might become a bit nuts, there was just as good a probability that she would grow out of this and any action the court took now was likely to be ineffective and upset the child and damage her relationship with her mother and her grandparents. If you are worried that your child is becoming too religious rather than involve the court (which would not work), you should exercise your parental responsibility and show the child the errors of her ways. The mother after all had custody of the child and should be able to influence her daughter more than her ex husband

If the child remains religious after she have done the best to persuade her otherwise, then you have to learn to accept this. A child has her own personality and you cannot force them to have yours. One must also accept that sometimes your children are not as intelligent as you would like them to be or have eccentric or odd personalities and may end up religious.

[dh]

No Light, I am heart broken about Ellie. She sounds beautiful. So sorry for your family's pain and strain.

[mimi]

"But goyyim don't get naked for their baptisms, do they?"

It depends, Orthodox Christian take the full dip-used to be nude Just like Jesus but now with the goodies covered. The babies are of course nude. Luckily for any ten year olds out there, the Orthodox Church doesn't "sheep-steal" or seek converts. People convert mainly for marriage.

Some Protestants also immerse too.

http://freechristimages.org/images_Christ_life/Jesus_Baptized_John_The_Baptist.jpg

[MarkfromShortHills]

Suggest that anyone interested should read the decision of the Court as posted by Barry.

This was clearly a carefully considered decision that is a credit to the court.

The mother is clearly full of shit, and the Chabad rabbi is - like so many Chabad rabbis - a moronic asshole.

[Eli, what me messiah?]

Barry, makes a lot more sense. Thanks. I'm still of the view that this is a black mark on the father for putting his new religious beliefs before consistency in his daughter's life. But at least the judge wasn't completely out there.

NL, there's nothing I can say that would fit the situation, and I feel for Ellie, her parents, and you. I suspect, however, that when the voice of children is heard in these situations, it is not really about hearing the child's view, but humanely moderating those parent/s who cannot even think of refraining to implement any remote possibility of extending their child's life.

[Jeff]

To add insult to injury, there are even many people who not only think that goyah is an insult (it is not) but also think skiksha is the proper word (but *this* word is an insult as the shoresh would indicate).

Therefore a lot of people use the word shikshah completely without intent of insult. That is how mixed up things have become.

Or they could, you know - learn to speak English?

[Jeff]

No Light, I'm so sorry about your niece.

[Jeff]

and the Chabad rabbi is - like so many Chabad rabbis - a moronic asshole

In general, yes - but has it been established this was a Chabad rabbi (not that I'd be surprised)?

In any case, it most likely was a Haredi rabbi of some sort. Leave it to one of them to be clueless that their superstitious nonsense about the "Jewish soul" wold be offensive to a gentile. After years of arguing about this stuff, my nephew still can't understand why it's offensive to me.

[Jeff]

Definitely need to visit and spend some time with a chabad shilach and his family to get in touch with her true Jewish roots.

Posted by: Pierre | August 05, 2012 at 05:04 PM

Again, having her talk to a Lubavitcher isn't the way to get her not to worship a dead guy as messiah.

[No Light]

Yep Barry, apart from pockets here and there, the UK is largely irreligious. Even official holidays like Christmas and Easter are more about time together as a family, having fun, and watching bad TV!

dh - She is a great kid. She is so clever, so unbelievably funny, and she runs my mum and dad ragged! She has an uncanny intuition, it's very hard to keep anything from her!

Watching her transform from a bald, bloated toddler into a gorgeous, cheeky kid who could charm the birds from the trees, has been one of the highlights of my life.

She went to a day nursery with an amazing educational program, and by the time she was four she was chattering away in Spanish and Mandarin. We buy her Usborne books that teach French, German, and Greek. She has CDs and DVDs that teach languages through music and songs, and it is hysterically funny watching her play 'X Factor', standing with her pink toy guitar and singing 'Twinkle Twinkle Little Star' in Japanese, then forcing her judges (us!) to tell her she's the winner.

I'm lucky to know her. She's an amazing little girl.

[Eli, what me messiah?]

Read the opinion. (hat tip to Barry.)
Yes, the mother is a dolt. She agreed to let her daughter attend church with dad because she's not religious. But she objected to baptism, and in a fit of further stupidity got a Chabad rabbi to give her a letter that just made things worse:
"...Rabbi Odom Brandman, the Director of the Buckhurst Hill branch of the Chabad Lubavitch Community Centres which is a Jewish charitable organisation. This letter which is written in highly emotive terms starts out with the paragraph:
"It was extremely disturbing to hear last night of the proposed baptism of the two young children named above [A and C] in clear contradiction to the wishes of their biological mother and all four grandparents – all of whom are proudly Jewish."
The letter continues:
"In Judaism we don't encourage conversion either way as it is unnatural for a person to change the religion they are born into and which thus is ingrained in their soul in a deep way. Although conversions are performed they must be worked at over a number of years when a real change can realistically take place. It is unfair to any child to put them under this pressure and to do something unnatural to their soul.
What was even more disturbing in this case was the fact that the children have been enrolled in a baptism program without the knowledge or consent of their mother…
.A formal change of religion must be agreed by both parents. To me this does not stand well for the integrity, trustworthiness or responsibility of the father."

The letter pissed off the judge. Here's how it was dismissed as having no value:
"Although the letter from Rabbi Brandman suggests a number of adverse consequences I am certainly unable to accept that I can place any reliance upon that letter as expert evidence. It contains no declaration of truth, no confirmation of the Rabbi's qualifications to put forward expert opinion on matters of Jewish law and no expert witness declaration all of which are required by the Family Procedure Rules."

[dh]

No Light, thanks for the smile.

[Vince Ortega]

Since the first half of the Christian bible is the Tanakh, perhaps the judge didn't see her as straying that far from Judaism....just a thought.

[Jake]

Rebbitzman

Yasher Koach. You hit them theological nail on the head.

To be baptized and become a Christian is all about saving ones soul. Your baptized in the name of the father son and the holy ghost. The water cleanse you of original sin and any sins you committed since birth and now your belief in the dead Jew on a stick will keep you spiritually saved.
I guess xtians have the lock on that concept

Any Rabbi who puts forth a religious argument based on what's best for a soul must be by definition a Neanderthal. But per the judge it would be ok for a xtian to say it and it is ok for many of the posters to this blog.
for a xtian to say that.

[dh]

Dead Jew on a stick. That's hilarious!

[Jeff]

"...Rabbi Odom Brandman, the Director of the Buckhurst Hill branch of the Chabad Lubavitch Community Centres which is a Jewish charitable organisation.

Well, there you go. Naturally, a Chabad rabbi would start talking about qualitative differences between the souls of Jews and gentiles. This time, it worked against them.

[Chicago Sam]

No light, if anyone is disgusting, it is you. Your name is certainly well chosen. FYI, children often suffer from their parents' inability to communicate properly about religion.

I, for one, don't like seeing a Jewish child raised as a Christian. I also know that children ultimately choose for themselves as adults the spiritual path s/he will consciously choose. That's simply reality--whether you like it or not.

If you want a child in a broken home to remain Jewish, you--as a parent--had better start modeling the best qualities that personify mentshlikeit, arlichkeit, and Yiddishkeit. Should you fail to do so, don't be surprised if kids look elsewhere for their spiritual inspiration.

Nobody will follow a fake. Platitudes won't work either--no matter how hard you scream.

Live the moral Jewish life, and you might have success with your kids.

As for you as a human being, I suggest you get some Prozac to handle your bipolar disposition--and lastly--

Get a life.

[Chicago Sam]

BTW, the way Chabad uses the term "Goy," as well as other Haredi-Hassidic types, the term "goy" is typically pejorative, so the Office of the Rabbi is correct.

Yes, linguistically, "Goy" in the Tanakh does not have this connotation.

Worse still are the terms, "Skeketz" (detestable) that is used in Yiddish as "Shiksa" or "shegetz," which is a similar derivation.

Jews would be wise to refer to non-Jewish persons respectfully. If anyone's behavior seems to be abominable and disgusting these days, it's the axis of religious fanaticism--Haredi, Chabad, and other Hassidic types who make a daily mockery of Jewish values any way they can.

[Bassy the Haredi Slayer]

It reminds me the movie  (and the book)  Mermaids with Cher and Winona Ryder, Winona as 15 years old girl Jewish girl fantasizes  about being a nun and Cher reminds her "Charlotte, we're Jewish"

[Yoel Mechanic]

Goy is used in a pejorative way justlike the word African American or Black would be. All three of these are intrinsically neutral. I am truly shocked to hear people think the word is intrinsically an insult. It depends on the context, or other factors *outside* of the word itself (gestures, or body language perhaps). I gave examples of how the word is used to this very day. If the word always means an insult, then why is Israel recited as Goy Echad by all frum Jews on a weekly basis??

Look, if someone wants to be insulting, they will use words in an insulting way. that doesn't mean the word is an insult in itself. And to spread ignorance is merely to set up a whole class of Hebrew speakers so that naive people will think they are bigoted just because they frequently use the word goy or goyah.

And what does this language issue have to do with Chabad? or Chareidi? that is beyond me. Unless you mean to say their language usage is so poor they think the word is an insult.

[Yoel Mechanic]

ps: this reminds me of a parallel in history. Look at the evolution of class names for Blacks: Colored People, Negro, Black, Persons of Color, then African American. It is like every couple decades or so a new name is needed because there is so much abuse going on, the name gets negative connotations so a new name is needed to help ease the tensions. So, now you are saying that because of misuse, and abuse, a 100% fine word, that has been around in the Holy Tongue(Lashon HaKodesh) for like 3000 YEARS, GOY, has to be avoided now because there are ignorant people around who will find it insulting. This is what I mean by the tragedy of outsiders manipulating the language, and Israel loosing control: and the timeliness for Israel to reassert control of the language.

[Yoel Mechanic]

pss: If one has a goal of getting people to behave in a respectful way, one will have to work on engendering respectful attitudes. Just manipulating attitudes to get on to think a word, like goy, is insulting, and now one has to avoid that word, is not the way to go, for reasons already mentioned. I don't have an easy way to create culture change; no one does. Setting good examples might be a first positive step, but many more steps will have to follow.

[Ynot]

She is too young. The article does not say which parent she is living with, thinking it is the mother, she should be left with the mother's religion and remain Jewish, at least until she is old enough to make up her own mind.

The article also does not mention which Christian denomination the father is making her convert to. Enough said of that issue.

The judge should have dismissed this case as a personal issue that does not belong in court. Jewish education is more complete, and Christians use the main Jewish texts, so why drag the child through the courts or conversion? It should be a non-issue and the girl should remain Jewish. She can decide on her own later on when she is old enough.

There was another case recently in Cologne, Germany, that I read about on Chief Rabbi Sachs website in which the Cologne Courts made circumcision illegal. They are having difficulty with the courts interfering in religion in Europe.

I am happy to live in New York.

[Eli, what me messiah?]

Ynot, it would be helpful if you read the post. Her father is going to baptize her. The mom wants the court to stop this.
The judge did what you suggested by dismissing the mom's request, so now she's baptized as a Christian.

[Jeff]

Looking back over it again, I retract what I said about the Chabad rabbi. It doesn't seem as though he's referring to their belief in a soul that is intrinsically Jewish (although I'm sure that was part of his meaning. as it's one of their core beliefs).

And this:

Although conversions are performed they must be worked at over a number of years when a real change can realistically take place... What was even more disturbing in this case was the fact that the children have been enrolled in a baptism program without the knowledge or consent of their mother…

seems perfectly reasonable.

The judge obviously had an agenda.

[Barry]

Imagine a case where a man and woman both children of democrat activists and themselves democrats got married and had a daughter. The marriage breaks up and custody is awarded to both parents with the child living with the mother. To the embarrassment of the ex-husband's parents, the man suddenly turns from being a democrat to becoming a Tea Party activist and to the annoyance of the ex wife lets his daughter know what his views are on political matters which the child seems to prefer to the mother's democrat opinions. Can you imagine the ex-wife would get anywhere by going to a court arguing that only she should be allowed to determine her child's political development? Parents have different political views just as they may support different football teams. Let the child decide for itself what it wants if it makes her happy. It is of no great consequence what she does today as she can change her mind (like everyone else can) as she grows up.

If a democrat father admitted he had broken all contacts with and disinherited his adult daughter after she became a republican, you would be shocked as such behaviour exhibits a fanaticism (which is found in Hareidi sitting shiva for kids going OTD) which does not sit with morality a democrat should hold. Blood is thicker than water.

This judge chose to treat religious affiliation as no more important than political affiliation or sport team support. He would not be mad enough to prohibit a father taking his daughter to Manchester United games because her mother and all grandparents as Liverpool supporters fear she might end up as a Manchester United supporter. For this judge, the comments by the Chabbad rabbi are equivalent to that of a football hooligan justifying his extreme and immoral behaviour as normal and healthy team support.

[Jeff]

Barry, as cult-like as the Tea Party is, being baptized a Christian isn't equivalent to going to a few of their rallies (although the dogma is as mind-numbingly stupid).

That said, the mother really should have brought in a psychologist. As Eli said, she sounds like a dolt. She probably just ran down to her local Chabad rabbi (as there seems to be one on just about every street corner now) and cried, "Help! They're going to baptize my daughter!", so he did the best he could with the crap with which he's been indoctrinated - "ingrained upon the soul", or whatever.

Pretty pathetic that Lubavitchers have become the go-to rabbis.

I'd hold up this incident to my nephew as evidence that Chabad's eschewing of secular education runs counter to their own aims, but he'd just dismiss it as one isolated incident involving an antisemitic judge.

[WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar]

Jeff, I think that CrownHeights.info actually had a pretty good summary, and even their usual lunatic Milhouse took a remarkably liberal view of the matter.

The judge put considerable weight upon the Chabad rabbi's testimony as an expert witness, and some of that testimony was good, but when the rabbi started up with the nonsense about what is 'unnatural to the soul', he lost credibility with the judge.

As an expert witness, you need to speak in terms of facts, experience you've had with similar cases, what your sources are- i.e. texts, journals, data, research- and of course there is no body of research or texts other than the Tanya that Chabad relies upon, and we know what the Tanya says about other religions. And so the Chabad rabbi ended up being a part of the problem.

It would have been better for the woman's attorney to either have prepared the rabbi better for what needed to be said, or found a more capable rabbi with experience testifying in divorce cases where religious differences are part of the contention, or used a psychologist who would testify that changing religions at this tumultuous time was not in the child's best interest.

In other words, the mother's side could have handled this a lot better.

We both know that the usual Chabad philosophy, that plays so well in the yeshiva on a Thursday night when everyone is drunk, makes a person sound like a psychotic when he says it to anyone in the real world.

[Jeff]

It would have been better for the woman's attorney to either have prepared the rabbi better for what needed to be said, or found a more capable rabbi with experience testifying in divorce cases where religious differences are part of the contention, or used a psychologist who would testify that changing religions at this tumultuous time was not in the child's best interest.

In other words, the mother's side could have handled this a lot better.

Certainly.

We both know that the usual Chabad philosophy, that plays so well in the yeshiva on a Thursday night when everyone is drunk, makes a person sound like a psychotic when he says it to anyone in the real world.

The only disagreement you'll get from me is that they don't get drunk only on Thursday nights! Every day's a holiday in Lubavitch!

[Eli, what me messiah?]

WSC, it's interesting to see how CHInfo plays up things like this, and I was also surprised by Milhouse's absence of complete lunacy in commenting.
The mother should have taken a completely different position, along the lines of, "look, I'm doing everything I can to support my kids in this rough time and help them respect their father. Despite my deepest wishes, I even allowed my daughter to attend Christian services. But this is taking this too far, and you, judge, should reign in my ex's behavior before he does permanent damage. I'm not frum and don't see the world of religion as all black and white. I have already proved I am not one to force my religious views on my daughter. I just don't want her making a decision now that may hurt her in the long run."
Instead of going to a Chabad rabbi who would just say what is predictable, the mother could have asked an independent psychologist to opinon on the likely effect to a child of radically changing religion immediately after a divorce.
It was stupid of the rabbi to issue a statement against the father in a divorce case. I disagree the judge gave his testimony considerable weight. on the contrary, he treated the rabbi as a hired gun who just took the side of the litigating parent who hired him.

[WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar]

Eli, good points. A more level-headed approach by the woman to the judge would indeed have been advisable, with the overal message being that the last thing the child needs right now is to change religions, since it does involve considerable deeply-rooted psychological effects, especially at such an impressionable age.

There are smart capable Chabad rabbis out there who could have made an intelligent compelling argument to that effect, without any mumbo-jumbo BS about the Jewish soul, etc., and it probably would have been much more impressive upon the judge, but this rabbi wasn't one of those.

Inability to express oneself in an intelligent articulate manner is a combination of lack of education, lack of effort, and lack of truly understanding or even believing in what you're saying.

I would think that a rabbi going to testify before a judge in this matter would have done his homework and prepared what he was going to say, and to know before whom he was saying it, but this rabbi was unprepared and came off hurting the case instead of helping.

[Jeff]

There are smart capable Chabad rabbis out there

Are there really?

In any case, this is one of my chief complaints about Chabad. There's no intake process, no evaluation as to whether or not it's the right path for that individual, because they begin form the premise that it's the ONLY viable Jewish path. Then, anyone who wants to be a shliach, can find a territory and produce - gets to be one. There's no aptitude test.

I ealize this applies to all such groups, but Chabad is the only one out there actively recruiting on a large scale.

[Jeff]

Okay, I read the CrownHeights story. I still think the judge was insensitive, but yes, he could have been worse.

And I read Milhouse's comments. Yes, he's being less of a nutjob than he usually is, but still:

If she's already going to church, there's really not much difference whether she has some water shpritzed on her or not. It makes no difference to the golus her neshomo is in... Ideally, of course, we'd like the courts to recognize that the Torah is true and their religions are false; but that won't happen until Moshiach comes... even though in a case like this it means that this poor little neshomo loses. "

Lunatics.

[God is not amused]

The mother brought this to the GOV., to solve? A dilemma in the family and she runs to "strangers" HOW LAME IS SHE. Matters of how to honor God is between the person and God. There comes a time when parents got to LET GO and let the child fly. THIS IS IT. No congregation is qualified to speak for God and claim the child/person is a lost soul, because they don't prescribe to the "brand/package" of the congregation. That is just pure arrogance to claim to know the mind of God and how God accepts a relationship from a person. YOU BEARDS OR EVANGELIST ARE NOT IN A POSITION TO TELL PEOPLE HOW TO HAVE A RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD AND WHAT QUALIFIES AS A RELATIONSHIP.
God writes(right or wrong choice) on peoples heart which usually is manifested via the "conscious" of the person. God gave FREEDOM of FREEWILL to choose.
You Rabbis/Priest TAKE THAT AWAY. YOU arrogant pukes.

Bary the TEA PARTY is not a cult. It is a grassroots POLITICAL movement PROMOTING FREEDOM from GOVERNMENT TYRANY. Promoting SELF-Determination of choice. To be free to fly or fry and get back up again to try. TEA =Taxed Enough Already. The gov., takes freedom by taking YOUR$$$$
Everybody knows that $$=freedom to do and make a choices(as in everything that moeny can buy)

The Chassids are a cult. Following a "leader" like a mindless zombie is the definition of a cult. Look it up. Cult leaders promote tyrany and SUB-SERvience to THEM and to their WILL. That my friend is a cult. That my friend is what Chassidim espouses. NOT FREEDOM of choice and personal self-determination. Rabbis living off of the congreation$$$$$ dispensing "philosophies" many of which is flat out WRONG is pure arrogance.

If they(religious leaders are so "right" how come the congregations are all so wrong and the world is so screwed up with all these righteous people running to various congregations??? hmmmmmmm Muslims/Jews/Christians/Hindu/Buddhist etc:

Ans: They are all mislead and are NOT TAUGHT RIGHT FROM WRONG.

Like I said all religious leaders are nothing more than arrogant pukes, living off of other peoples $$$$.

[Teddy]

Vince, Vince, that isn't true about the Tanakh, being the first half of the Bible...
I have got here a King Yaakov edition and in it the so called Old Testament has 1158 pages and the New Testament 348.The Tanakh is thus a bit over the first-three quarters of the XP-book. (Of course the Christian versions for kiddies are more balanced because the Psalms, Song of Songs and so on are not included in Christian kiddie versions).

[WoolSilkCotton]

Jeff, my impression is that Chabad shluchim up until the early 1990's were mostly competent people, and generally the 'best and brightest' of the Lubavitch community.
Once the organization expanded beyond a certain point, and there was no real leadership without the Rebbe, the overall standards went downhill, and now you have every Tam, Dick and Hymie calling himself a Chabad rabbi and in charge of a Chabad Center.

[Jeff]

They spent all these decades recruiting all of those BT's, and now it's coming back to bite them in the ass. Those same BT's have made Chabad even more fundamentalist and retrograde than it was already.

God, there is nothing about that world that I find even remotely attractive. I find it galling that they convince themselves their "one size fits all" lifestyle is the only one appropriate for every Jew, without exception.