Is Judaism Pro-Life Or Pro-Choice?

Does Judaism ban all abortions? No. Does it allow abortions to protect the life of the mother? No.Judaism MANDATES that abortion be done if it necessary to protect the mother's life. Should a woman who has been raped be allowed to have an abortion? Or is Paul Ryan's position banning abortion in cases of rape (and in other cases, as well) the traditional Jewish position supported by halakha? Do you know?

 

Does Judaism ban all abortions?

No.

Does it allow abortions to protect the life of the mother?

No. Judaism does not allow abortion to protect the life of the mother – Judaism MANDATES that abortion be done if it necessary to protect the mother's life.

Should a woman who has been raped be allowed to have an abortion? Or is Paul Ryan's position banning abortion in cases of rape (and in other cases, as well) the traditional Jewish position supported by halakha? Do you know?

Halakha, Jewish law, recognizes the psychological damage done to many women if they are forced to carry to term a baby that is the product of a rape. While it allows a woman to choose to carry the baby to term, it also allows her to abort it. The decision is based on her mental health and, especially in the case of choosing to abort, has to be ratified by a rabbi or beit din, religious court. But the halakha is extremely lenient in cases like this and in actuality there are few roadblocks to getting an abortion.

The same is true in other cases where the woman's psychological well-being is threatened by the pregnancy.

In fact, halakha is far more lenient in determining physical or psychological threats to a woman's life than pro-life Christians are. So in many cases where a pro-life lawmaker would ban an abortion, Judaism would permit it or even mandate it.

That's why Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, the greatest haredi authority on rabbinic law of the latter half of the last century, told rabbis not to join the pro-life movement. He wanted women and their rabbis to be free to make these life and death decisions without the interference of laws drafted by members of religions that have very different views on abortion than Judaism does. It was, in his mind, an issue of pekuakh nefesh, saving lives.

That means the abortion policies of both Mitt Romney and his running mate Paul Ryan are against halakha, and all other things being equal, that fact would mandate that you vote against Romney and Ryan in the upcoming election.

Comments

[Jason]

Judaism also does not dictate that life begins at conception.

[itchiemayer]

This is silly. Until we examine all issues through the eyes of halacha, it is not relevant to focus on only one.

[Shmarya]

This is silly. Until we examine all issues through the eyes of halacha, it is not relevant to focus on only one.

Posted by: itchiemayer | August 22, 2012 at 09:40 AM

First of all, if you world read the post again you might notice that I wrote, "all other things being equal, that fact would mandate that you vote against Romney and Ryan in the upcoming election."

Past that, unless there are other direct issues of pekuakh nefesh that tipped in Romney's and Ryan's favor, we would basically need to vote against them.

And as far as I can see, there isn't.

[Rochel]

An interesting article - thanks!

It has always frightened me how little value the far right place on women's lives. (And don't even get me started on the recent rape comment by Akin...)

[itchiemayer]

Shmarya, you are a liberal and will, of course, see it that way. I think it's quite a stretch. Gay marriage is an abomination which is a sign of moral decay in a society. To favor that is to favor the destruction of society. Hey, it might be a reach but I'm not sure how an observant Jew could vote for the pro abomination (gay) party. Frankly, whoever casts their vote based on abortion rights is a damned fool.

[Charity begins at Home.]

One thing for sure is that the Torah position is not to allow same gender marriage for either Jew or Gentile. There is no doubt or argument about this. Hence, following your logic, that means the policy of Barak Obama is against halakha, and all other things being equal, that fact would mandate that you vote against Obama in the upcoming election.

[seymour]

please what are you talking about no one gets pregnant from rape

as per Todd Akin and king both Republicans

[rebitzman]

Shmarya, you are a liberal and will, of course, see it that way.

I guess the rabbis of the Talmud were liberal as well, because he is correct.

Hey, it might be a reach but I'm not sure how an observant Jew could vote for the pro abomination (gay) party.

I'll need the hallachic source that defines marriage as being between a man and a woman.

Frankly, whoever casts their vote based on abortion rights is a damned fool.

Qualified slightly to read "casts their vote SOLEY......" and we are in agreement.

Now - what's your opinion about someone who casts his/her vote SOLEY on the issue of gay marriage?

[Rochel]

Hey, it might be a reach but I'm not sure how an observant Jew could vote for the pro abomination (gay) party. Posted by: itchiemayer | August 22, 2012 at 09:55 AM

If gay marriage is legal, no one that is religious (or even not religious) is required to get 'gay-married'. It doesn't affect how you observe your religion day to day. However, if these very restrictive abortion laws get passed, we will be required to put women's lives in danger, and go against halacha (pekuakh nefesh).

[Avi Rosenthal]

I would put Rochel's reply slightly differently: a candidate who wants to KILL WOMEN is preferable to a candidate who wants to define civil marriage for sinners who are FORNICATING ANYWAY?

[Rabbi David Wolpe Shlita]

The halacha is clear. Judaism is pro-abortion, pro-gay-marriage, anti-circumcision in the way it is practiced today, and pro-Palestinian.

[fg]

You can also argue that permitting abortions in cases other then rape and danger of mothers helth is promoting a culture of death where babies are murdered without just cause. It's pikuech nefesh to vote for romney. H'll save thousends of babies.

[itchiemayer]

Now - what's your opinion about someone who casts his/her vote SOLEY on the issue of gay marriage?

Rebitzman, they would also be a damned fool.

[Rabbi David Wolpe Shlita]

I still cannot get over the fact that Chushim ben Dan knocked off Eisav's head at the levaya of Yaakov Aveinu. They were engaged in legitimate discussions. Did he paskin halacha in front of his uncles?

[Lawrence M. Reisman]

"Judaism MANDATES that abortion be done if it necessary to protect the mother's life."? I thought it mandated abortion be done if it is necessary to protect the mother's HEALTH! And there is a difference. A full-term pregnancy may cause injury or disability even though it wouldn't be fatal. The abortion would not be necessary to save the mother's life, but it would be mandated.

[Chicago Sam]

Chevara,

I am pro-choice wrt the Halacha; each case is a more a matter of personal conscience that must take into consideration the mental well being of the mother.

in my conservative shul, I do have a member who was raped and she gave birth to her son. That was her choice--as it should be.

That being said, I would never vote for a candidate on the basis of one issue, which I may or may not agree with, as Shamarya would have us do.

Romney and Ryan (surprisingly--especially given his Catholic background) condemned Akin and urged him to step down. I suspect JFK would have also agreed with Ryan, since he was an observant Catholic.

Obama's position on Jewish Jerusalem--especially when he referred to adding 1300 new apartments to it--as "Occupied Arab territory," this past year, along with condemnations heard from Biden, Hillary, Axelrod and Emanuel ought to be an outrage that all of us--as Jews--should remember. Obama's concept of a "contiguous" Palestine means that Israel should give up her territorial integrity to rely on the Palestinian "word" and "commitment" to respect and acknowledge Israel's "right to exist."

BTW, after Rohm Emanuel condemned the new buildings projects in Jewish Jerusalem, he celebrated his son's Bar Mitzvah in East Jerusalem. What a phony!

Those are the issues all of us at FM should remember.

Obama's animus toward Israel will know no bounds if he is reelected in Nov. God help us all if he wins.

[Chicago Sam]

Sorry, I misspelled "Chevra."

[EB]

There are other issues that may also determine who we vote for, examples being world politics or the economy. I am not a Romney fan, his sidekick Ryan looks too much like Robin. But in this case Halakha makes sense. Statistics show that in the USA the rapist would most likely be black.

And we don't need to worry about conservative Republican rapists because they believe women don't get pregnant when raped. That actually scares me a little, think about it.

[Wigmore]

Posted by Shmarya in the OP:

. . .and all other things being equal, that fact would mandate that you vote against Romney and Ryan in the upcoming election.

Here's where you risk lose supporters for this website. I'm interested in the stories you find about chareidim, chasidim, etc. even where I don't agree with your point of view but I don't come here for anyone's opinion on American politics.

I find it grossly offensive that you would try and use Halacha to support Obama. (Voting against Romney equals voting for Obama.)

Do I agree with everything for which Romney stands? Probably not. But I would vote for an empty chair rather than Obama! Not only is the country in a horrible economic place but Obama has proven himself to be totally clueless about how to get us out of here.

Better yet, and to bring this back to Jews, under Obama, the Justice Department has essentially stopped enforcing most laws involving employment discrimination especially on the grounds of race (if you're white), religion and age. Also, while Congress refused to pass the so-called Dream Act, Obama decided he refuses to deport people who entered this country illegally.

How are these policies good for the Jews?

Obama should have another term--as the president of Chelm.

[Charity begins at Home.]

There are various opinions about permitting or mandating abortions. Scott is certainly no authority. But one this is clear, same gender sexual relations are forbidden to both Jew or Gentile. Marriage between members of the same gender is what led to the Great Flood. If you are unfamiliar with these teachings, you ought to spend more time studying the sources.

[Rabbi David Wolpe Shlita]

Wigmore: It is clear halacha that Jews must vote for Obama as all of his positions are in line with halacha and all of Romney's are in opposition. Certainly this site has been dedicated ti the clarifying and furtherance of halachick observance.

[ohmy]

rebitzman-
"""I'll need the hallachic source that defines marriage as being between a man and a woman"""'

Al kein ya’azov ish es aviv ve’es imo vedavak be’ishto” - “Therefore, a man shall leave his father and mother and cling to his wife.
Getting Married and Having Children

"Be fruitful and multiply." (Bereishis 1:28)

It is a mitzvah to get married in order to have children and raise a family. One should strive to have many children, since each additional child is like building a world. Both men and women should always strive to be married (Rambam, Hilchos Ishus 15a:16).

[Jeff]

Not only is the country in a horrible economic place but Obama has proven himself to be totally clueless about how to get us out of here.

And you think Romney's going to get us out of it?

It would almost be worth voting him in just to see the looks on your faces as the country's inexorable downward spiral accelerates - but then, you'd only find a way to blame that on Obama as well.

[mimi]

ohmy.

That would mean a marriage between older people or a marriage with an infertile person is not valid.

Also, with the technology today, gay couples can become parents as well very easily might I add.

[ohmy]

Abortions are also permitted by poskim in certain cases when we know in advance the baby has little chance of making the delivery or little chance of living after the birth.Please no one to pasken from what i said its a case by case basis where one needs to ask his rav.

[Charity begins at Home.]

"I'll need the hallachic source that defines marriage as being between a man and a woman."

Please clarify why you need that.

[Jeff]

There's no point in talking to these people. They simply parrot what they've heard from their rabbis, who are the evangelicals' new best friends.

[Dovid]

"One thing for sure is that the Torah position is not to allow same gender marriage for either Jew or Gentile."
Posted by: Charity begins at Home

Really, so Torah has a position on what constitues a marriage for gentiles and who gentiles may marry? Please elaborate. Or are you just making assumptions based on your own prejudices?

[Dovid]

The is absolutely no question WHATSOEVER about the law of the land, the abortion issue and Torah.

Unless the law of the land is going to be set up to coincide precisely with Torah, which it obviously is not, then a law of the land that allows Jews to practice Judaism freely is obviouly preferable.

In other words, an abortion law that allows Jews to follow Torah and Rabbis on the issue is preferable to one that tells Jews when they can and cannot have an abortion.

How any Torah Jew can support the Republicans on this issue is beyond comprehension. Do you really want cases where Torah mandates an abortion but the law of the land makes it illegal? Because that's what you're supporting.

[Yoel B]

I think that the strict antiabortion position is consistent with the halacha for Bnei Noach. Last time I checked, neither Ryan nor Romney were Jews.

Rambam, Mishneh Torah Hilchot Melachim chapter 9: (Mechon Mamre text http://www.mechon-mamre.org/i/e509.htm)

בן נוח שהרג נפש, אפילו עובר במעי אימו--נהרג עליו. וכן אם הרג טריפה, או שכפתו ונתנו לפני הארי, או שהניחו ברעב עד שמת--הואיל והמית מכל מקום, נהרג.

[Ynot]

Jeff, No Evangelicals. I am reading the blog and the last thing I need to be reminded of is Evangelicals.

[Dovid]

"I think that the strict antiabortion position is consistent with the halacha for Bnei Noach." posted by Yoel B

And for Jews? Or do you think that the Republicans plan to allow Jews to have abortions when they want?

This is not an issue of whether Judaism is pro-life or pro-choice. It's a question of whether someone else's religious beliefs will be forced upon everyone else in America, including us.

Dumb Dumb Dumb Dumb!!!!

[bob abooey]

FahfAhhFOOOOOEY

[Nathan]

And you think Romney's going to get us out of it?

We have a problem with healthcare and the uninsured. We are the only country in the world that does not provide healthcare for its citizens. What ever happened with that famous adage that says "health comes first"?

So what is Romney's health care proposal? Well lets go to his web site to see "his" vision on healthcare.

"Mitt will pursue policies that give each state the power to craft a health care reform plan that is best for its own citizens"

Now that's what you call a *leader* with a plan - NOT!

http://www.mittromney.com/issues/health-care

[A Yid]

>>>That means the abortion policies of both Mitt Romney and his running mate Paul Ryan are against halakha, and all other things being equal, that fact would mandate that you vote against Romney and Ryan in the upcoming election.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Mitt_Romney#Abortion_and_related_issues

2) You want a pikuakh nefesh issue Shmaryah?
During his whole political carrier Obama has fought against our right to defend ourselves against criminals:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama_social_policy#Gun_policy
he even went as far as advocating a ban on concealed carry of firearms.
Thus all things being equal it's a mitzvah to vote against him.
PS. check out Jews for Preservation of Firearms Ownership http://JPFO.org for more info .

[Anita]

"Mitt will pursue policies that give each state the power to craft a health care reform plan that is best for its own citizens"

Now that's what you call a *leader* with a plan - NOT!

http://www.mittromney.com/issues/health-care

Posted by: Nathan | August 22, 2012 at 12:55 PM

That's what you call a clueless individual who simply wants to pass the buck. How pathetic. Not someone who I want to be my 'leader'.

[Jeff]

"Mitt will pursue policies that give each state the power to craft a health care reform plan that is best for its own citizens"

Your talking to someone from Massachusetts. Just six years ago, Romney signed into legislation for us a health care policy that he'd promoted vigorously, yet he now condemns Obama's plan, which is nearly identical - and of course, the right wingers don't say a word.

That man can't speak in public without making an ass of himself.

[Anita]

Sorry wrong tag.

[dh]

So did Rabbi Feinstein also agree that a rabbi or beit din ratify the prospective abortion? That is not quite as loathsome as Romney /Morons posthumously babtizing Jews, specifically by name, who were mercilessly and spectacularly massacred in the Holocaust.

[No Light]

Don't you see Dovid? Yoel and his family are special, and won't be affected by Mittens the Mormon Bishop's laws! The cognitive dissonance is astounding.

Just remember people, that Mittens and his gang have baptised thousands of dead Jews into Mormonism. They especially love to baptise holocaust victims, by proxy.

Mittens believes that Jews, all Jews, yes - even the wingnuts who agree with him, are delaying the redemption of mankind. Only when all "fake Jews" (halakhically Jewish) are baptised and become Real Jews (Mormons) can redemption begin.

I find it very telling that some of the frothing haredim prefer that future, to one with a mixed-race president.

Just remember men, without women there is no Judaism.

So when Yael, and Rivka, and Malky, and Devora, and all the other mothers of your 5/10/15 kids are dying, or maimed, or psychologically destroyed from being unable to terminate a dangerous pregnancy.

When you're on your third or fourth kid with Tay Sachs, because doctors are allowed to lie if they think disclosing test results may lead to an abortion.

When your lovely 13 year old daughter is raped by your rabbi, and is forced into carrying his child.

Remember why it happened, why you voted for it, and why you somehow thought it wouldn't affect you. Remember it all as you're forced to watch TS devastate families, as fathers are left to care for a dozen motherless children, as victims of your hidden child abuse/rape epidemic are punished even more harshly than they are now.

Think on. If you're even capable of doing so.

[Bassy the Haredi Slayer]

You are misrepresenting Rav Moshe opinion. He forbade abortion in any case except when the mother life is in immediate danger.

רציחה מלא תרצח גם על עובר ורק שפטור ההורגו ממיתה, ואסור להורגו אף לפ"נ =לפקוח נפש= דכל אינשי ורק להצלת אמו שלא תמות בלידתו הוא ההיתר

. שו"ת אגרות משה חלק חו"מ ב סימן סט

[ML]

If any of you knew what the Mormons really thought about Jews you'd never utter the name Romney again.

[Yoel B]

I think that the Mormons "baptizing" dead Jews is annoying and ridiculous. If I spoke Yiddish I would say "goyshe narishkeit." However, it is done out of a desire to benefit those baptized and I am obliged by my understanding of halacha to think that it has no effect on the neshamot of the dead. I don't know what kabbalah would say, but I think the general opinion of our host here is that kabbalistic doctrine about the soul is of little consequence.

Mitt Romney does not presently hold a position of authority in the LDS church, and I do not hold him responsible for its doctrines. He does have respect for the Constitution which makes the hysteria about baptism and a Mormon as President foolish.

[Bassy the Haredi Slayer]

As rav Howard Stern Shlita said, we really need to permit abortion not only in the first three months but we should permit it in the first three years!

[George Walker]

A fetus if it threatens the mother is a rodef, and the mother has the right to self-defense

[Yoel B]

Romney is on record supporting a rape exception to any abortion ban. (I don't think halacha necessarily does.) But ANY government in a religiously diverse country is going to step on SOMEBODY'S religious toes. I think that's called politics.

I think the LDS is a whacko cult that succeeded. As far as I know they think they're somehow connected to the "10 lost tribes" and I don't give a rip what the Mormons think about Jews in a religious sense. I care how they act in a secular sense, and mostly that seems OK. I wouldn't mind having most of the Mormons I've known as neighbors.

[Wigmore]

If anyone thinks that any president can reverse Roe v. Wade, you have a serious ignorance of how law is made in this country.

By the way, regarding continuing on with Obama, remember that this is the man who said he would "fix" things. In almost four years, he hasn't done anything.

Are you better now than you were before?

[God is not amused]

Dovid, this nation was founded by Christians. So if your religion doesn't jibe and theirs put you out, there is the beauty of a Jewish homeland.
This is where secular leanings comes in handy. How about everybody minding their business and leave this between the mother, the doctor and God.The mother should pay with their own dime, not with my tax$$$ considering I don't approve of abortions. per se.
How about everybody leave gays to hook up as long as they don't demand that the state change their age old traditions and give them license to be man and man/wife and wife. Such hook ups are between God and the sodomites.

How about live and let live??? and let God sort out the rest.

[God is not amused]

A human out of the violence of rape being aborted? why? it is not that childs fault. In fact that human might turn out to be the JOY and BLESSING of many peoples life. That baby has a potential to be a saint or sinner. Giving it the benefit of doubt it may be a serious blessing to humanity.
THAT IS WHAT THE RABBIS NEED TO TEACH if they must open their mouths. The potential of that human. The mothers life? Maybe that was all her purpose is to bring that potential in......and going BACK to GOD is not a terrible deal. That is what the Rabbis should teach if they must stick their beaks into everything.
What is so tragic about death if allegedly you are going home to a loving place??

[shosh]

Abortion is a very complex issue.

The Rambam, while listing the 7 universal, Noachide Laws writes: “A gentile who slays any soul, even a fetus in its mother's womb, should be executed in retribution for its death. Similarly, if he slew a person who would have otherwise died in the near future, placed a person before a lion, or starved a person to death, he should be executed for through one manner or other, he killed.”

Rambam Hilchot Melachim, perek 9 halacha 4)

[Oy_Vegas]

None of this crap matters if we don't have any economy.

[No Light]

God is not amused - you're a Muppet. Head made of cloth, with someone's hand up your arse as you speak their words.

1) The Hyde Amendment is 30 years old. I'm not even American and I know that.

2) The fact that I have a wife, and not a husband, does not affect society in the slightest. We still pay our taxes, contribute to society, obey the law, and do whatever we can to improve the lives of people in our community.

Anyone who wants to restrict our rights based on something of no import to them, can come here, say it to my face and tell me why it's a problem without invoking their Sky Daddy.

Put it this way, I've yet to meet a bigot whose argument wasn't "But God says...". Going down that route means you have to accept the same argument against your religion, diet, dress, lifestyle. and finances.

So fly over here and have a face to face discussion with me. I guarantee to make your empty little head spin.

[Wigmore]

OBAMA & REID: BY THE NUMBERS

DEBT: nearly $16 Trillion

UNEMPLOYMENT: 8.3%

$ ROBBED FROM MEDICARE: $716 Billion

DAYS WITHOUT A BUDGET: 1212 Days

[george]

Shayma is such a tool - he'll say anything to support his real Gd, Liberalism. The country is in an economic death spiral as medicair, social security and medicade are imploding; we are in a long term recession; Iran's nuclear weaponry is about to threaten the world - and Obama has no answers and is only making the situation worse. And Shayma is still going on about issues that are irrelevant to the presidential race. Give it up Shayma, you and that horse's ass Debbie Wasserman are about as credible as a horse - fly.

[ultra haredi lite]

Reb Shmarya Shlita,
What would Reb Moshe Feinstein zt"l rule if a pregnancy resulted from consentual incest? Is abortion permitted or not?

[Shmarya]

OBAMA & REID: BY THE NUMBERS

DEBT: nearly $16 Trillion

UNEMPLOYMENT: 8.3%

$ ROBBED FROM MEDICARE: $716 Billion

DAYS WITHOUT A BUDGET: 1212 Days

Posted by: Wigmore | August 22, 2012 at 04:06 PM

Please.

Most of that debt comes from your REPUBLICAN former president George W. Bush and his tax policies.

The economy and the financial markets crashed under BUSH. Obama was left with the cleanup.

No money was "robbed" from Medicare. The CBO and every independent non-partisan analysis clearly show your claim is complete bullshit.

And, of course, you completely ignore the refusal of Republicans in Congress to compromise on anything.

That a frum Jew is as ignorant and as foolish as you are is truly sad.

[Shmarya]

Reb Shmarya Shlita,
What would Reb Moshe Feinstein zt"l rule if a pregnancy resulted from consentual incest? Is abortion permitted or not?

Posted by: ultra haredi lite | August 22, 2012 at 04:50 PM

It would, as all cases of potential pikuakh nefesh do, depend on the facts of each individual case. There is no blanket ruling forbidding or mandating abortion.

[JK2]

Do you really want cases where Torah mandates an abortion but the law of the land makes it illegal? Because that's what you're supporting.

Posted by: Dovid | August 22, 2012 at 11:53 AM

Dovid, an excellent point.

Before Roe v. Wade, that's what we DID have.

No Light wrote: Just remember men, without women there is no Judaism.

There's no Orthodox Judaism. They need women; women don't need them in order for their children to be Jewish. (The Conservative movement will probably change its position on matrilineal descent in the near future.)

Without the participation of the women, the Orthos would change their position on matrilineal descent so quickly it would make our heads spin. They will suddenly be able to find ample sources to support that position and say they were mistaken or misled for over a millennium. And they will be able to make common cause with those Reform and Reconstructionist heretics!

Jewish men having been marrying out since ...

[Charity begins at Home.]

Dovid, regarding your query "Really, so Torah has a position on what constitues a marriage for gentiles and who gentiles may marry? Please elaborate. Or are you just making assumptions based on your own prejudices?" Are you familiar with Rambam and Midrash?

[God is not amused]

No light. You are definitely in the dark. I PAY FOR ABORTIONS. Planned Parenthood IS funded by my tax dollars. Yes, it shows you don't live here. So much for you hoity toity knowledge of the Hyde Amendment. What rights are you talking about? you got a wife? are you male or female?
It is not important to me that sodomites get together, you are right on that. BUT for centuries the traditions IS, in the institution of marriage ,a man and woman. So LEAVE IT ALONE. Heather has TWO mommies IS AGAINST NATURAL NATURE.
Why the hell do gays feel the need to let the whole world know they take it up the poopershooter??? or they munch rugs??
NOBODY gives a damn!!!
The culture is of man and wife. LEAVE IT ALONE.
Gays do not need to hassle the whole culture with their bullshit. A handful of upstarts trying to overturn cultural norms. "Oh, look at me I am so friggin special you have to accomodate me and my needs. Screw you. Find a plot of dirt and set up a country where you can marry. NOT HERE. As it is you have "partner laws and common law priviledges."
Where you from Australia where all you tough talking dopes gave up your guns??? Assholes.
Merry old England? where you can't take a piss without the government being up your ass and YOU dopes gave up your guns, becoming servile pukes to Lizzy and her wayward in-bred degenerate family.
Yeah, I would tell you to your face. Sodomy is UNNATURAL. Do your thing. BUT IT IS NOT NORMAL and nor is it normal vis-a-vis the institution of marriage. And, further more who intimitated that "gays" are not productive humans beings that are an asset to the community? Not me. I have worked with gays, I have socialized with them BUT, no I will not accept it as a NORMAL state of being or as normal for the instituion of marriage and I have said that to their faces in arguments. There ARE natural laws in nature. Faggotry/Sodomy/Quiffness IS NOT IT. Gays want to delude themselves that is fine. I am not deluded.

Muppet who the fuck uses such dopey, wussy term? Quiffs.

[Jeff]

Mitt Romney does not presently hold a position of authority in the LDS church, and I do not hold him responsible for its doctrines.He does have respect for the Constitution which makes the hysteria about baptism and a Mormon as President foolish.

Posted by: Yoel B | August 22, 2012 at 01:49 PM

Mitt has admitted having participated in baptismal ceremonies for the dead.

[sHMARYAH,should change his name to Julius Streicher]

since when does this criminaly insane,self hating jew hating nazi piece of human filth'Shmaryah'care about HALACHA?

[anycomment]

It is comical to read Shmarya -- the anti-Orthodox himself -- site halacha. I would expect him to say that non-Orthodox judaism has no restrictions on abortion or gay marriage, and that's halacha to SHmarya. Seems Shamrya started speaking out of both sides of his mouth.

[Rochel]

No light. You are definitely in the dark. I PAY FOR ABORTIONS. Planned Parenthood IS funded by my tax dollars. Posted by: God is not amused | August 22, 2012 at 05:25 PM

Not so. Planned Parenthood receives about a third of its money in government grants and contracts. By law, federal funding cannot be allocated for abortions. So your taxes pay for family planning and general health services, NOT abortions.

[Dovid]

"What would Reb Moshe Feinstein zt"l rule if a pregnancy resulted from consentual incest? Is abortion permitted or not?

Posted by: ultra haredi lite | August 22, 2012 at 04:50 PM"

Whatever Reb Moshe Feinstein zt"l would rude, what makes you so sure that it would be identical to what the Evangelical Christians would like the rule to be?

Don't you think it's obviously better to leave it up to the woman to decide, and base it on her Rov's ruling if she so chooses?

[Dovid]

God is not Amused: "this nation was founded by Christians. So if your religion doesn't jibe and theirs put you out, there is the beauty of a Jewish homeland."

Don't the frum people reading all this realize that it's people like this who you're supporting when you support the Republicans? You think you're supporting some idea of "Judeo-Christian morality," when the reality is that you're supporting people who will turn around and tell you this is a Christian country and if you don't like it get lost and go live in Israel. Do you think these people who want a blanket abortion ban are going to grant a special exclusion to allow Jews only to have abortions where it's allowed or even mandated?

[Yoel B]

"No money was "robbed" from Medicare. The CBO and every independent non-partisan analysis clearly show your claim is complete bullshit."

Not exactly. If you or I double counted like this on our tax returns we'd be in the slammer"

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304299304577346332422834276.html

"And, of course, you completely ignore the refusal of Republicans in Congress to compromise on anything."

Why in the world should they "compromise" on a nearly $750 BILLION theft from Gen X and younger? The real debt, taking unfunded liabilities into account, is staggering. If it's not paid down by massive budget cuts -- which in the short run will slow the economy and cause a lot of pain, and which NEITHER party seems to be able to do -- the way out will be the US Govt defaulting on debt or hyperinflation. That will be SO much fun for those on a fixed income.

[Shmarya]

Posted by: Yoel B | August 22, 2012 at 07:38 PM

You cited an OPINION piece in the Wall Street Journal that has since been shown to be wrong by the CBO and every other independent non-partisan study I'm aware of.

[jake24]

If your against gay marriage that doesn't have to effect your vote. No one is forcing you to be homosexual it's your personal choice. I see no problem with voting for Obama and being against gay marriage.

[SkepticalYid]

Posted by: Wigmore | August 22, 2012 at 04:06 PM
Obama generated 16 trillion in debt? Really?
You're probably one of the right wing shmucks who parroted Cheney a couple years ago when he said "debt doesn't matter."

[dh]

God is not amused @ 5:25, you like the norm. You want everyone to be "normal ". You are SCREAMING it. Normal. Do you know what's normal? Are you referring to fundamental laws or nature? Nah, you can't be. Heterosexuality is not a law of nature. You must be referring to the "norm ", right?

Having established that, you deem your own sexual behavior, if any, as normal, correct? Right.

Okay, you derive satisfaction and pleasure from the norm, not just in your sexual demonstrations, if any you have, but in life in general, right? That's a comfy safe place to be. The norm is something conforming to the average. Comfy.

I also see that you seem to be a strict constructionalist biblically, Constitutionally and socially. That is comfy too. You don't have to look far for instruction and you know where to look. Safe and comfy. Any bending or reshaping would degrade the institutions that we grew up with as Jews, Americans and socially as men and women, indeed as human beings.

You are only alive because of the "norm " changing. You would have died from bubonic plague because it was the norm to live side by side with rodents' and bacteria or cholera because it was the social norm not to cleanse oneself.

The "norm " and what is "normal " is fluid. The individuals that discovered bacteria and the benefit of soap and water, on the other hand, were not normal, as are you.

Winston Churchill said "Empires of the future will be empires of the mind ". You will not be present.

The comparisons of filth and sewer rats to you, of course, are advisory and apropos.

Oh, and also, hoity-toity has a dash.

[Bassy the Haredi Slayer]

"What would Reb Moshe Feinstein zt"l rule if a pregnancy resulted from consentual incest? Is abortion permitted or not?
-------------------------------------------------
If you look in the teshuva I mentioned before you will see that he forbids abortion even in a case of mamzer and Tay-Sachs

ופשוט כדכתבתי הלכה הברורה ע"פ רבותינו הראשונים המפרשים והפוסקים ממש שאסור בדין רציחה ממש כל עובר בין כשר בין ממזר בין סתם עוברים ובין הידועים לחולי תיי - סקס שכולן אסורין מדינא ממש,

[Shmarya]

Posted by: Bassy the Haredi Slayer | August 22, 2012 at 08:07 PM

No, that is not how halakha – or Rav Moshe – works.

If there is no other prevailing factor in a *specific* case, Rav Moshe held strictly. But if there was another prevailing factor – the life of the mother, including her mental health, for example – the ruling normally changes based on it.

That's in part why Rav Moshe opposed supporting the pro-life movement.

He held that a rabbi has to make the decision with the woman (and often her doctors) on a case-by-case basis.

[Friar Yid]

Charity-

Marriage between members of the same gender is what led to the Great Flood. If you are unfamiliar with these teachings, you ought to spend more time studying the sources.

Help us out and cite the source that says gay marriage caused the flood.

We'll wait.

[Yoel B]

Obama's Medicare trustee doesn't agree with the CBO:

http://mercatus.org/publication/fiscal-consequences-affordable-care-act

[Wigmore]

That a frum Jew is as ignorant and as foolish as you are is truly sad.

Posted by: Shmarya | August 22, 2012 at 04:58 PM

Whether I am "frum" or not is irrelevant.

You belittle both yourself and your blog by delving into politics especially when you engage in ad hominems.

[Charity begins at Home.]

Friar,

When I provide the source (twice cited in the Midrash) how will you react and respond?

[Maskil]

Shmarya, the prohibition is murder (from 40 days from conception). The reasons for exceptions where we would not ever be allowed to take the life of one for the wellbeing of the other are due to the fact that a fetus is lesser than a living person; there is a distinction between murdering a fetus and murdering a "life."

Also, you know deep in your heart that after all the propoganda the republicans have against abortion, none are planning on ever getting past 3rd trimester abortions, many of which are partial-birth. Partial-birth abortions, halachicly, are not just the murder of a human, but already the murder of a living human.

[seraphya]

Maskil, are you joking?!

It is not even considered Halakhikly murder even after a baby is born until 30 days have passed.

Forget about looking to rishonim, achronim, the mishna or the talmud, the Torah even clearly states that if you cause a pregnant women to abort when you injure her there is no murder or even manslaughter(ie you don't go to an ir miklat)

['Shmarya']

Jewish law does requires a case by case evaluation of whether abortion should be performed. If R Feinstein would have known what vermin I turned out to be he would have ran for thecwire hanger himself and jammed it up the cunt of the whore that was carrying me and yanked me out himself.

[Friar Yid]

Charity- By saying the midrash is as stupid as you. But, notice, I'm still waiting.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Orthodox rabbis are useless when it comes to important life decisions, including medical and scientific issues. Imagine a doctor who insists on using a 1000-year old textbook as his only source of information.

Rabbis should stick with rulings about chickens, mezuzahs, panty stains, etc.

When religion gets involved in government and politics, you end up with people slaughtering each other in the streets.

[WoolSilkCotton]

If the Midrash is your source for making important life decisions, then there is something seriously wrong with your mental health.

[Sifter]

You seem to have an agenda here.
The bigger question is whether or not I will be voting for Romney and Ryan based on their abortion stance. THe answer is NO. I will be voting for both of them DESPITE this stance.

Apparently, many Jews still vote according to their belief in the Holy Jewish Trinity:

Abortion, gay marriage, gun control.

Shmarya, I'm sad to see you seemingly in congruence with this. Obama has been a disaster for this country and a disaster for Israel. Abortion stances of the GOP is about at # 30 or so on my list. This country needs a litlle R&R. I'll be voting for Romney.

[Yoel B]

Speaking of the CBO...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/deeper-recession-imminent-if-congress-doesnt-act-on-fiscal-cliff-cbo-report/2012/08/22/0da7a07a-ec60-11e1-a80b-9f898562d010_story.html?hpid=z1

[Charity begins at Home.]

WoolSilkCotton,

The Midrash is an essential source of wisdom and certainly qualifies as an authoritative source to cite to demonstrate that the Torah "says gay marriage caused the flood".

[rebitzman]

The Conservative movement will probably change its position on matrilineal descent in the near future.)

Not even being discussed - and as any opinion takes years to get through the law Committee, and this issue is not even on the radar - either you are mistaken in your assertion or your definition of "near future" differs radically from that of the rational world.

[WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar]

++Charity begins at Home. | August 23, 2012 at 09:45 AM++

Tell that story on your next job interview.

[Maskil]

Maskil, are you joking?!

It is not even considered Halakhikly murder even after a baby is born until 30 days have passed.

Forget about looking to rishonim, achronim, the mishna or the talmud, the Torah even clearly states that if you cause a pregnant women to abort when you injure her there is no murder or even manslaughter(ie you don't go to an ir miklat)

Posted by: seraphya | August 23, 2012 at 02:56 AM

No, I'm not joking at all. Quite serious. There is no contest to your comment. You are referring to a trial where the defendant faces a potential sentence of biblically mandated penalties. Since he is exempt in this case he is not tried in said venue. A rabbinical counrt can decide whether to press charges and, if found guilty, it can subject him to any penalty it sees fit, not just death but even torture or worse, or both etc. I was referring to the biblical prohibition, not the elligibility or exemption from biblical retribution.

And no, I'm not going to cite sources if you can't figure out the distinction, because there is a female haredi slayer commenting in this conversation who has already quoted sources on the matter, and it is a disgrace to our Torah and our nation when a female needs to teach the men.

[Charity begins at Home.]

Genesis Rabbah 26:5 and Leviticus Rabbah 23:9

"Rabbi Huna said in the name of Rabbi Joseph, 'The generation of the flood was not wiped out until they wrote marriage documents for the union of a man to a male or to an animal."

They were pretty progressive back then too.

Now you have the option to reject the Midrash, other Torah sources and attack anyone who strives to live according to the Torah as incompetent mentally and less that a human. I recall that this too is an ancient argument used and continues to be used against Jews.

[Shmarya]

Posted by: Charity begins at Home. | August 23, 2012 at 06:32 PM

You do realize that you are citing a midrash, not halakha, and that the midrash you cite is not even a halakhic midrash, and the assertion it makes is made in the name of one rabbi – not the rabbis as a whole.

[Friar Yid]

Charity- And now that we've gotten such an illustrious argument (one whole rabbi said so!) we of course get to pose the follow-up: How does he know?

[Friar Yid]

it is a disgrace to our Torah and our nation when a female needs to teach the men.

Does your mother know you feel this way?

[Charity begins at Home.]

I was asked for a source, I cited it, nuff said. The sarcasm that Friar and Scott offer lends nothing to their positions. It was uncalled for and it was not the focus of the discussion. This is neither the appropriate forum nor is this the best method to engage in a honest, thoughtful and reasonable conversation. If you want to discuss this in earnest let me know and we can arrange a direct conversation. If you are not interested in this, we can leave it at that.

[Shmarya]

The sarcasm that Friar and Scott offer lends nothing to their positions.

Please. What I wrote is:

You do realize that you are citing a midrash, not halakha, and that the midrash you cite is not even a halakhic midrash, and the assertion it makes is made in the name of one rabbi – not the rabbis as a whole.

Posted by: Shmarya | August 23, 2012 at 06:36 PM

I think the problem here is that you don't know what you're doing, not that we point that out.

[Jake]

ROTFLOL

[Charity begins at Home.]

To review, (may the folks from Minnesota need to read this carefully, so I will type slowly) - I initially wrote that the Torah position is against same gender marriage, whether the people are Jewish or Gentile. And there is no argument opposing this position. I then shared that the Torah teaches that same gender marriage is a factor that lead to the Great Flood. Friar asked for the source, I provided that. Adequately and accurately.

To now begin a new line of attacking the source is changing the subject and distracting from the point. You want to discuss this, I would be happy to do so in person.

[Shmarya]

Posted by: Charity begins at Home. | August 24, 2012 at 12:01 AM

The truth is that you don't seem to know the difference between halakha, a halakhic midrash, and a midrash and you don't seem to know the difference between an opinion stated in the name of one rabbi as oposed to an opinion stated in the name of an entire school (Beit Hillel, for example) or the "rabbis."

Go ask Nachman Wilhelm to explain it to you.

[Charity begins at Home.]

Are you saying that the Torah supports same gender marriage? The query was "Help us out and cite the source that says gay marriage caused the flood." Asked and answered. You are the "expert" delving into the "differences" between halacha, a halachik midrash and a midrash. Why don't you induldge us and show us your great scholarship, depth and insight. Or can you just fess up and recognize, I was asked a question and answered it.

[Shmarya]

We don't pasken from non-halakhic midrashim.

In other words, there is ONE opinion that it caused the flood.

But that's all that is – a lone opinion.