Is It Permissible To Cut The Social Safety Net Because, As Paul Ryan Claims, We “Can’t Afford” It Anymore?

Among the arguments made by Republican Vice Presidential Candidate Paul Ryan to support his plan to cut the social safety net for America’s poor and working poor is that America just can’t afford these social programs anymore. They cost too much. Does Jewish law support Ryan?

Mitt Romney, left, and Paul Ryan

Among the arguments made by Republican Vice Presidential Candidate Paul Ryan to support his plan to cut the social safety net for America’s poor and working poor is that America just can’t afford these social programs anymore. They cost too much.

That use of social safety net programs would significantly increase during a severe recession, thereby making the social safety net “cost more” should be self-evident.

Even so, Ryan has no problem advocating the gutting of that social safety net during a severe recession, a form of circular reasoning that is truly mind-boggling – especially when you realize he advocates cutting taxes for the wealthy and upper middle class at the same time.

How does halakha view this issue?

To answer that question, we first have to understand that while giving tzedaka (loosely translated as “charity”) always had an individual voluntary  component, for much of Jewish history, tzedaka was collected by Jewish community administrators as if it were a form of taxation.

But when Jewish communities lost their autonomous bailiff powers (circa 1700 CE) and could no longer imprison criminals or corporally punish them, giving tzedaka took on more of a voluntary nature.

Even so, the halakhic essence of tzedaka is much closer to a tax (ma’aser oni) everyone must pay than it is to a choice to give or to not give that is made by a donor depending purely on his or her own whims.

So one of the questions we’re really asking is whether halakha would support reducing the amount of money the rich and well-to-do pay in taxes and have those tax cuts partially paid for by cutting support the poor.

Would halakha support that? The answer, of course, is no, it would not.

What if there were no tax cuts in the mix and the issue was simply that too many people need help and we just can’t keep helping them forever, so we’ll cut the programs now? Would halakha support that?

No, it would not.

Before cutting the social safety net for the poor, halakha would raise the amount of taxes the wealthy and well-to-do pay to the maximum allowed, and it would mandate cuts in other areas before allowing any cuts to the poor.

Halakha doesn’t view assistance to the poor as a nice thing to do. It views assistance to the as MANDATORY.

Indeed, the Torah (Five Books of Moses) states this clearly: “…You shall not harden your heart or shut your hand against your poor brother” –– Devarim (Deuteronomy) 15:7.

The practical application of this in the Land of Israel when it was an agrarian economy is found in the Mishna – largely in Peah.

(Peah does not have an extant Gemara in the Babylonian Talmud, and it is not regularly or carefully studied by most sectors of Orthodox-haredi Judaism. But it is still considered to be valid and it forms the basis for the halakhot, laws, of tzedaka as practiced today.)

A standard overall (significant) amount from each crop based is left for or designated for the poor. Each individual poor person was given (or allowed to take, as the case may have been) a certain standard minimum amount (or more) from each crop – x amount of barley, x amount of wheat, etc.

What happened if a landowner didn’t have enough to meet this minimum amount for every poor person?

Was he then exempt for giving to the poor at all?

No. He still gave the standard amount he otherwise would have given and allowed the poor to divide that equitably among themselves.

Cities, towns and villages also had MANDATORY soup kitchens to feed the poor paid for by tax-tzedaka money. Each of these localities was also MANDATED to have a welfare fund that gave the poor money. Money was disbursed daily to poor people who had come from outside the community, and to community residents every Friday. These welfare funds were MANDATED to give to each visiting poor person the cost of one day’s meals, and to each resident poor person the cost of one week’s meals. The traveling poor and the homeless were by law given money sufficient to pay for their lodgings. Each non-poor person was MANDATED to contribute to these funds, and if the funds ran low, extra collections were done by their community-appointed administrators.

Tzedaka – what we now translate as charity – was not voluntary: it was a tax (or, more properly, a series of taxes).

The obligation of a locality’s government or administration to support the poor was absolute.

It was not something people did if they felt like it or if they had some surplus money or food lying around. It was not an optional extra. There was a pact of social responsibility that was MANDATED by law and supported by TAXES.

None of what halakha requires sounds anything like what Paul Ryan and Mitt Romney advocate.

That’s because their policies – and the policies of the Tea Party, and of Rush Limbaugh, and of many Fox News pundits – with regard to the social safety net are in OPPOSITION to the Jewish view of tzedaka and halakha’s requirements for bringing that view to practical fruition.

Think about it.

Comments

[jancsibacsi]

We should all learn to live within our means that is the bottom line.

[Garnel Ironheart]

Tell me Shmarya, where can I buy the set of your sifrei Shu"t? After all, as a posek you must have some, right?
Society has a responsibility to help the poor. It has no responsibility to go bankrupt doing so. This is the choice the US is facing as its deficit climbs year after year as new "entitlements" and "handouts" come into place, all managed by the expanding civil service.
It would be nice if government could make sure that there's a chicken in every pot and a Ford in every driveway. The utopian society is unaffordable and soon the bills will come due to prove this.
Is it better to give folks what you can't afford right now and then go bankrupt later leaving them with nothing or give them some of what they need now with an eye towards sustainability?

[Fan]

Doesn't Paul Ryan plan to reduce welfare, but not eliminate it? I thought he wants to require Americans to work or look for jobs in order to qualify for benefits. Etc., but not completely take such benefits away.

There is no obligation in the Torah to give 30% of our income to charity.

As a side note, backing up Shmarya's point about tzedaka, see here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meEK4dUf3Os

[Shmarya]

There is no obligation in the Torah to give 30% of our income to charity.

And?

You're confusing what was given to the poor with other taxes levied on Jews by their Jewish communities.

Do you really think that taxes were not levied to build synagogues and roads or to hire lamplighters and guards?

All of these things were paid for through Jewish taxes paid to the Jewish community, and these taxes were separate from tzedaka taxes.

[jancsibacsi]

Garnel Ironheart -Youre way is the rational logical way of thinking but tell those who all their lifes got used to getting sec,8 food stamps etc.they wont settle for anything less then they are getting i know neighbors of mine dozens who are getting almost 100 thousand a year with 8 children they wont be able to afford living the high life as they do now they are very very spoiled with the rest of the country

[Shmarya]

Society has a responsibility to help the poor. It has no responsibility to go bankrupt doing so. This is the choice the US is facing as its deficit climbs year after year as new "entitlements" and "handouts" come into place, all managed by the expanding civil service.

One of the great things about you, Garnel, is that you are consistently craven and consistently foolish.

Before cutting BIBLICALLY MANDATED support for the poor, communities would have to cut other, non-biblically-mandated things.

And communities certainly could NOT reduce the taxes paid by the non-poor or the rich and claim at the same time that they need to cut or eliminate support for the poor.

The problem, my friend, is that you learn you halakha from Rush Limbaugh and conservative pundits rather than from actual halakhic sources.

[gevezener chusid]

Garnel Ironheart wrote: "The utopian society is unaffordable and soon the bills will come due to prove this."

.... actually it isn't "unaffordable" at all - it's just that those who can afford it don't feel any obligation to help those in need - and that's why it won't work.

I think we need to police the distribution of welfare funds to make sure that those who deserve them do get them and those freeloaders such as jancsibacsi is describing are thrown off the gravy train.

Ironically, the Monsey and Williamsburg and Kiryas Joel and New Square welfare queens (and kings) are all planning to vote Republican. I am confident that even under a Republican regime, they will somehow pay off the right people to make sure that their stream of goodies is not cut off.

[Sarek]

"I've got mine. Too bad about you," seems to be the current economic theory of the GOP.

[Alter Kocker]

Speaking from Canada, the social safety net is affordable if, and only if your spending is properly geared. The US has military spending that outstrips the next 6 countries combined. The US tax levels are among the lowest in the western world.

The money is there. You folks need to look at the strategies employed by other countries because the skew on your tax dollars is seriously wrong. There is no more cold war, there is no viable threat from any of your neighbors. You have trillions of dollars in warships and airplanes and citizens that go bankrupt if they get sick. Ryan is so full of shit that his eyes are brown.

[rebitzman]

I thought he wants to require Americans to work or look for jobs in order to qualify for benefits.

Dude - that's the law now. Passed during the Clinton Administration.

I like the law - think it needs to be applied more broadly - say, to Israel - to religious groups there.

[Lubavitchers are Christians]

Just met a friend of mine recently - he received his masters back in February, got a job as an intern for four months, then went on unemployment.

He is now working in a pizza parlor, off the books, so that he can continue to receive unemployment and food stamps. When he uses up his benefits, he'll get another real job, work for a year, then go back on unemployment.

I was shocked, but he smiled and said to me: "I love gaming the system. It's so easy."

Not Jewish.

[dh]

Civil Service is expanding??

[Lubavitchers are Christians]

What's wrong with the work requirement of welfare? Why did Obama quietly gut that requirement, which was passed in the 1990's and signed into law by Clinton? Should we be subsidizing people who just sit around and don't work all day?

Wouldn't we all be proud of Ryan if he was pushing these policies in Israel, where haredi parasites don't work but collect welfare?

So why is America different? Oh right, we only want haredim to lose their free govt handouts/ benefits, but not everyone else?

Why the double standard?

[Lubavitchers are Christians]

I thought he wants to require Americans to work or look for jobs in order to qualify for benefits.

Dude - that's the law now. Passed during the Clinton Administration.

I like the law - think it needs to be applied more broadly - say, to Israel - to religious groups there.

Posted by: rebitzman | August 23, 2012 at 11:38 AM

Yes, it is the law (passed by the Repubs, and signed by Clinton). But unfortunately the Obama Administration quietly announced last month that it would not be requiring that people try to work in order to receive welfare.

Did you miss that news tidbit? Maybe if you would listen to Fox News, you would actually find out the news.

From Wiki:
"In July 2012, the Department of Health and Human Services released a memo notifying states that they are able to apply for a waiver for the work requirements of the TANF program.[11] The waiver would allow states to provide assistance without having to enforce the work component of the program, which currently states that 50 percent of a state's TANF caseload must meet work requirements.[12] The Obama administration stated that the change was made in order to allow more flexibility in how individual states operate their welfare programs.[13] The change has been criticized by Republicans including Dave Camp, chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee and Orrin Hatch, who stated they were concerned that the memo would remove the main focus of PRWORA."

Be informed.

[Lubavitchers are Christians]

Shmarya -

Are you saying that Biblical law should be applied in America? Do you also propose that abortion and gay sex be outlawed as well as per the Bible?

What have we come to?

[Lubavitchers are Christians]

When you pull the lever for Romney/ Ryan this November, remember that you will be helping pull haredim out of poverty by taking away their free govt benefits, so that they will be forced to actually work to feed their 12 member families.

Or would you rather pull the lever for Pbama/ Biden, and increase the amounts of families in this country who act like haredim and don't work, but rather parasitically feed off everyone else?

[Lubavitchers are Christians]

Correction:

*** Obama/ Biden

[Rabbi David Wolpe Shlita]

Biblical law requires that we continue to raise taxes without limit until all social programs are fully funded, and then create new ones. That is the halacha.

[A Yid]

I don't understand why any of these historical tidbits as to how Jewish communities were organized in Europe before 1700s is binding on our votes in the US elections in 2012.
I also baffled as to why the worthiness of the candidates to US presidential elections all of whom are gentile, planning to govern a gentile country is relevant as to how closely their views resemble the views of the Jewish notables and rabbis before 1700s .
Also you keep using the word "biblical" as if halachik rulings in the exile of Edom more than 300 years ago somehow represent anything close as to how the the Jewish society functioned in biblical times when we had independence not simply limited self-government in the midst of Christendom.
From the halachik point of view a gentile society must try to conform to 7 laws of Noah none of these laws requires charity. (It does say that the gentiles have voluntarily accepted upon themselves to give charity and some other important precepts that are part of the 613 mitzvot nonetheless that doesn't prove that they must give charity according to the same halachik requirements that are binding on us. It is also not clear that US federal system of taxation must be set up in the same way as Jewish one before 1700s .
PS. As you know are all kinds of interesting halachik and extra-halachik practices mentioned in the huge body of halachik responsa. Would you for example feel we are compelled to support a candidate who insists on a capital punishment for theft of even a small coin and other violations of the 7 Noahide laws? After all this is the ruling of the Rambam as to how a gentiles are to behave if they are to set up a halachik society.

PPS. I also remain baffled Shmaryah as to why you feel a need to keep up this charade of appealing to our observance of halacha on your selected pet topics as if halacha means something to you considering you reject foundations of faith such as divine revelation, exodus from Egypt etc. Why not honestly state that you are guided by secular humanist values and you are selectively using halacha hoping to manipulate part of your audience to vote for democrats?

[Garnel Ironheart]

> Before cutting BIBLICALLY MANDATED support for the poor, communities would have to cut other, non-biblically-mandated things

Okay first of all, why do Biblically mandated rules have any impact on a non-Jewish government's policy? The Bible forbids pork. If Ryan has ham and eggs for breakfast is he sinning? If Obama shows up for work on Shabbos is he sinning? Why should the US government's failure to hold by Biblically mandated standards mean anything?
Secondly, what exactly would you cut? The military? You can't. Russia might not be the threat it once was but the US is still the world's policeman, like it or not. Cut health care? Oh right, the Biblical mandate thing. Education?
And forget about raising taxes. If the government confiscated the entire wealth of the 1000 richest Americans it would barely put a dent into the deficit, let alone the debt and such a confiscation would only happen once because the next 1000 richest Americans would immediately decamp to elsewhere.
So you can't fix the problem by raising taxes, none of the really big ticket items can be cut and you're heading to bankruptcy.
I know, why don't you go out, get a job and pay income tax so you can help things out?

[seymour]

the question is poorly framed

the issue really is what sort of safety net to provide not whether it should be provided?

have we loosed the definition of poor and loosened the requirements of verification?

those are the real question.

[itchiemayer]

How did I know that Shmarya was going to pasken that halacha mandates a vote for Democrats? He's like the YCT crowd, determine what answer you want ahead of time and then manipulate things accordingly.

[ohmy]

Posted by: Lubavitchers are Christians | August 23, 2012 at 11:41 AM

Posted by: Lubavitchers are Christians | August 23, 2012 at 11:51 AM

Superb points would love to see how the liberal haredi haters challenge you with the usual nonsense.

[ultra haredi lite]

Reb Shmarya Shlita,
The USA is clearly heading towards an ever worsening finacial situation. If we continue down this path it will lead to a default at some point. So assume that the USA continues its current policies and then everything explodes and falls apart. At that point all programs will come to a screeching halt.
I posit to you, is it better to continue government handout programs unabated until collapse, or to reevaluate, cut with mercy where necessary and save the whole economy?

[jancsibacsi]

Garnel Ironheart -- don't you go out, get a job and pay income tax so you can help things out?
Going to work would demean his toyredige honor it is below his dignity god forbid he should lift up something heavy he will get malkes as i wrote before i know of at least a dozen neighbors who are on sec.8 food stamps many of them over 30 years and they do work ofbook
so their net income is over 100 thousand some are over 100 g without working i wont go into that own houses i know 2 who are millionaires and they collect own houses it is the norm in bp.

[Jonathan]

Interesting how Shmarya advocates for the poor obviously excluding the hated Hareidim, who, with their large families are truly needy.
Of course petz like Jancibacsi, will come up with a few cases of Hareidis that gamed the system, but by and large this is help to put food on the table and health insurance, which is almost unafordable in the free market, because of witch doctors like WoolCotton silk, who are raking inmillions by overcharging

[Bassy the Haredi Slayer]

When you pull the lever for Romney/ Ryan this November, remember that you will be helping pull haredim out of poverty by taking away their free govt benefits, so that they will be forced to actually work to feed their 12 member families.

and I have a foreclosed bridge off the FDR drive to sell you with no down payment.

Even if romney/ryan or even ron paul win thew election the haredim will still have their entitlements, they will use their political power to ensure that the money to Kiryas Yoel and other Pale of Settlement towns will continue to flow.

[ohmy]

janci,since you claim knowing a dozen neighbors who get section 8,fs,welfare blablabla do you know any haradei person who doesn't cheat the system or you know only the ganefs?
how do you know that the dozen neighbors of yours are gaming the system?

[deasd]

Shmarya,

Who said that if the federal government wants to cut something the state and local governments shouldn't or can't pick up the slack of the safety net? Why is it a federal responsibility? Remember, the reason the Kingdom of Rechavom the son of Solomon was split was because he was following your advice of not cutting taxes. If you are going to impoverish your society by spending and raising taxes it spells disaster and civil war.

From a biblical perspective charity is completely voluntary. It is between you and God. If you don't give maaser God will take care of you and not the government. And surely from a halachic perspective you can't put someone in jail for not paying their share that society has decided they should pay. Finally, as others have already commented this not a Jewish nation required to follow bib

[Joe Field]

Posted by: Lubavitchers are Christians | August 23, 2012 at 11:38 AM

So you are telling us that this guy has a masters and invested at a minimum six of higher education and around 75-100K to work in a pizza shop, which pays him around $450.00 and to get an additional $400.00 weekly unemployment check, and you want us to believe your BS.

[SkepticalYid]

Be informed.

Posted by: Lubavitchers are Christians | August 23, 2012 at 11:46 AM

He allowed three states to try a small pilot program w.o a work requirement in very rural areas. Try researching Sachs instead of regurgitating shtuss.

[SkepticalYid]

Make that facts...not Sachs. Spellcheck error :-P

[Joe Field]

Posted by: Alter Kocker | August 23, 2012 at 11:32 AM
Speaking from Canada, the social safety net is affordable if, and only if your spending is properly geared. The US has military spending that outstrips the next 6 countries combined. The US tax levels are among the lowest in the western world.

You are wrong, it is the next 17 countries combined, and otherwise you are right.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures

[Jonathan]

"i know of at least a dozen neighbors who are on sec.8 food stamps many of them over 30 years and they do work ofbook
so their net income is over 100 thousand some are over 100 g without working i wont go into that own houses i know 2 who are millionaires and they collect own houses it is the norm in bp."

You don't know what people have or don't have, whether they actually get goverment assistance or not.Just to educate you, you can own a house and still be eligible for assistance.Are you supposed to "eat" your house?

[jancsibacsi]

ohmy-Yes i do know a few who dont cheat the system as a matter of fact also my neighbor owns a house and another works in computer programming the one who gets sec.8 fs just told us last week theese 2 are friends the working guy and the nonworking,the nonwroking who gets all the benefits said to us he pities the working guy and his income of around60 or 70 g s is not enough for him can you beleive it i am telling to toirat emes the truth the sec.8 guy gets over 100 gs i wont go into how but i can tell you he told me he got over 15 thousand back in taxes his wife doest part work 4 hours a day.

[ohmy]

jancsibac-first you know a dozen who are ganafes now its down to two make up your mind.
what kind of harediem do you know more:
a)the ones who collect benefits illegally
b)collects benefits legally
c)doesn't collect anything
??

[Shmarya]

I find it amazing, even after years of blogging, to see how quickly haredim and right wing Modern Orthodox types toss out halakha and the Torah when it conflicts with their political views.

The point of this post – which is clear, by the way, try re-reading it if you're confused – is to show how Judaism views helping the poor, and to show that Jewish communities from as far back as at least 2,000 years ago TAXED Jews to pay for helping the poor.

What halakha and Judaism clearly envision is a just civil society which cares for the less fortunate, not as an afterthought but instead as a first priority, and does not demonize the poor.

This is the polar opposite to current Republican policy and to the ideologies of Romney and Ryan.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now, a special note those retarded by years of listening to Chabad 'Torah.'

The very restrictive interpretations of the 7 Mitzvot B'nai Noach are one extreme of the halakhic spectrum – not its middle – and most of that is actually dealing with laws governing non-Jews who choose to live in the Land of Israel under Jewish governance – not laws meant to govern non-Jewish countries or communities elsewhere.

As for the contention, made above by one of these Chabadniks, that "none of these [seven laws non-Jews are mandated to follow] laws requires charity" and that giving charity is voluntary for Gentiles, that is certainly a complete misrepresentation of what Judaism and halakha hold and envision.

Rabbaynu Nissim clearly states that it is mandatory for Gentiles to give tzadaka to support the poor (Talmud Bavli, Sanhedrin 56b). The Rambam (Hilkhot Melachim 10:10) held that giving tzedaka to the poor was the proper way for Gentiles to behave and that their societies would gain Divine merit for doing it, even though giving tzedaka was not one of the Seven Laws. So if you believe the Ramabam is the final word for this issue halakhicly – and he certainly was not in this case – to say that supporting the poor in America is "voluntary" and leave it at that is a complete misrepresentation of his position.

Lastly, once a "voluntary" act like this is taken on and becomes the norm,, halakhicly you can't just stop doing it. It now has the force of halakha.

So even if one were to accept the completely flawed understanding held by that Lubavitcher above, you'd still have to maintain the social safety net.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You may not like civil society, but you are commanded to support it anyway.

Like it or not, that is the halakha.

[seymour]

janci,since you claim knowing a dozen neighbors who get section 8,fs,welfare blablabla do you know any haradei person who doesn't cheat the system or you know only the ganefs?
how do you know that the dozen neighbors of yours are gaming the system?

Posted by: ohmy | August 23, 2012 at 01:30 PM

MY brother is a BP and very frum and is amazed how many scam the system not most but many more than should be

[jancsibacsi]

ohmy -Everone knows in bp who live near each other more or less if they are on sec.8 you asked if i know anyone not on it i wrote to you yes i know a few but trust me i am not making this up i know way more then 12, most of my block is on it here in bp, i dont have to tell you how they do it,you know that most probably since you act like youre one of those getting sec.8 i can tell.

[seymour]

Posted by: Lubavitchers are Christians | August 23, 2012 at 11:38 AM

So you are telling us that this guy has a masters and invested at a minimum six of higher education and around 75-100K to work in a pizza shop, which pays him around $450.00 and to get an additional $400.00 weekly unemployment check, and you want us to believe your BS.

Posted by: Joe Field | August 23, 2012 at 01:37 PM

lazy I guess

[DBSesq]

Shmaraya's basic premise, that Halacha as applied to Jews is binding on national policy, is wrong. Even assuming he correctly states the Halacha (which is a big assumption consider his paltry knowledge of Jewish law. Query, Shmarya are you even capable of reading any primary Jewish source in the original and comprehending it? Or do you rely on translations as I suspect you do)it doesn't apply. The answer to his klutz kashe is found in the Noachide commandment of dinim, to establish laws and implement them so that society can function. Within the Noachide code there is no prohibition in following the Ryan plan. Consider this, the Noachide Code does not prohibit the death penalty, even when implemented in ways a Sanhedrin would not be allowed to do. If society can kill someone in a way a Jewish court cannot, then society certainly can cut off welfare.

[ohmy]

jancsibacs-dont get personal i don't collect ANY benefits,do you,have you?
The term "everyone knows"means zero everyone knows that Obama is not a US citizen,you thinks so too? i think he is a citizen.point,don't use the "everyone" "its known" baloney stuff.
interesting how you would know who collects what and you would also know they are not entitled.

[CHAMOR BLI DAAS]

If you listened to Faux News you would be misinformed: Pres. Obama only wants to allow States to find alternate ways to encourage welfare recipients to get work. The States would be free to retain the staus quo. In aany case, in the middle of a recession (produced by Bush and continued by Congressional intransigence) the only chance that most people have to get off welfare is to bump others out of jobs.

[Shmarya]

Posted by: DBSesq | August 23, 2012 at 02:18 PM

When you're disbarred, Danny Boy, you can tell us all if your grasp of American law and halakha was correct or not.

Now do try to process, little corrupt attorney.

Society cannot "cut off welfare," and a society's ability to apply the death penalty when a Jewish country would not do so in no way allows it.

As I noted in a comment above (but will repeat again for the ethically challenged), the contention that "none of these [seven laws non-Jews are mandated to follow] laws requires charity" and that giving charity is voluntary for Gentiles, that is certainly a complete misrepresentation of what Judaism and halakha hold and envision.

Rabbaynu Nissim clearly states that it is mandatory for Gentiles to give tzadaka to support the poor (Talmud Bavli, Sanhedrin 56b). The Rambam (Hilkhot Melachim 10:10) held that giving tzedaka to the poor was the proper way for Gentiles to behave and that their societies would gain Divine merit for doing it, even though giving tzedaka was not one of the Seven Laws. So if you believe the Ramabam is the final word for this issue halakhicly – and he certainly was not in this case – to say that supporting the poor in America is "voluntary" and leave it at that is a complete misrepresentation of his position.

Lastly, once a "voluntary" act like this is taken on and becomes the norm,, halakhicly you can't just stop doing it. It now has the force of halakha.

So even if one were to accept the completely flawed understanding held by that Lubavitcher above, you'd still have to maintain the social safety net.

As for you, Danny Boy, go learn some ethics.

[CLR]

If the government confiscated the entire wealth of the 1000 richest Americans it would barely put a dent into the deficit, let alone the debt and such a confiscation would only happen once because the next 1000 richest Americans would immediately decamp to elsewhere.

Just curious, Garnel, which countries will all of those rich people decamp to?

The US has one of the lowest marginal income tax rates in the world, especially when compared to nations with first world economies.

[steven k]

Shmarya,
Why are you being so nasty?
Strong arguments do not need ad hominem attacks to strengthen them

[jancsibacsi]

ohmy--Its common knowledge here with 8 or more children how cant you collect,its all by hook or crook as long as you have the best of everything no matter how religious you are you go for it,about me i never collected a penny from any sec.8 or food stapms never, trust me i am telling you the truth its besides i i am a retiree in my 60s

[steven k]

"about me i never collected a penny from any sec.8 or food stapms never, trust me i am telling you the truth its besides i i am a retiree in my 60s"

How do you expect to be "trusted" as an anonymous poster? We don't know who you are,right?

[jancsibacsi]

ohmy-The person himself tells me about others if i would tell you that this person has a house and a half million in stocks would you beleive me? well its true not on his name. i saw both with my own eyes.

[deasd]

This is a catch 22, you can't vote for the republican because he wants to cut welfare and you can't vote for the democrat because he supports gay marriage.

Shmarya you are evading the issue. The issue is that it is not simply cutting the welfare state it is the question of how to go about to do the most with the least amount of money and who should do it. The federal government, state government, local government or private charity. Most famous hospitals in the US were built by private charity. Most soup kitchens are operated by private charity. Most universities were established by private philanthropy.

"Lastly, once a "voluntary" act like this is taken on and becomes the norm,, halakhicly you can't just stop doing it. It now has the force of halakha." what bs. You only have to find a pesach chratah and say muter lach and that is all.

Finally as I said above, learn from history. The kindom of Yehudah was destroyed by taxes.

[steven k]

"Just curious, Garnel, which countries will all of those rich people decamp to?"

Actually people do move for tax reasons and many places would be happy to have them.

"The US has one of the lowest marginal income tax rates in the world, especially when compared to nations with first world economies."

I wonder if someone could provide actual numbers from different countries.Actually, I suspect that numbers for the U.S don't take into account state,city and county income tax, which can take quite a bite especially in places like New York

[ohmy]

jancsib-you say:
"Its common knowledge here with 8 or more children how cant you collect,its all by hook or crook as long as you have the best of everything no matter how religious you are you go for it"
that's called assuming you don't know for a fact but since they are haredeim you are assuming they are ganefs.

Then you say:
"The person himself tells me about others if i would tell you that this person has a house and a half million in stocks would you beleive me? well its true not on his name. i saw both with my own eyes."

Why in the world will someone tell YOU something like this is beyond me.

You cant have a house and collect sec 8.If you do have a house on somebody else name then you don't have a house at all.

[Shmarya]

"Lastly, once a "voluntary" act like this is taken on and becomes the norm,, halakhicly you can't just stop doing it. It now has the force of halakha." what bs. You only have to find a pesach chratah and say muter lach and that is all.

Finally as I said above, learn from history. The kindom of Yehudah was destroyed by taxes.

Posted by: deasd | August 23, 2012 at 02:49 PM

When a society adopts a good practice an continues it for years, it is not a casual thing to stop it. The idea that all that would have to be done is a quick hataras nedarim is ridiculous. Can you release yourself from your own vow? No. You need by a beit din – even if that is an ad hoc, almost pro forma beit din.

But a society can't do this.

You can vestiges of this in stories like the Book of Esther, where the evil decree could not be rescinded, but a new positive defensive decree for Jews could be issued, and was.

As for this statement of your, "learn from history. The kindom of Yehudah was destroyed by taxes," you're foolish.

The Kingdom of Judah was destroyed by harsh, disproportionate taxes on the poor and near poor, while the rich and the gentry lived extremely well.

And those taxes were not used for biblically mandated support of the poor and the like – they were used to build large palaces and to fund an extremely large standing army – acts that are criticized by Tanakh and by its commentaries.

Where did you learn? Who educated you? Are there really rabbis teaching narishkeit like you spout?

[Shmarya]

Shmarya,
Why are you being so nasty?
Strong arguments do not need ad hominem attacks to strengthen them

Posted by: steven k | August 23, 2012 at 02:44 PM

Corrupt attorneys who head school boards that allegedly steal millions of dollars from poor non-Jewish kids need every slap across the face they get.

[Lubavitchers are Christians]

So you are telling us that this guy has a masters and invested at a minimum six of higher education and around 75-100K to work in a pizza shop, which pays him around $450.00 and to get an additional $400.00 weekly unemployment check, and you want us to believe your BS.

Posted by: Joe Field | August 23, 2012 at 01:37 PM

There are no jobs, my friend. 50% of 2012 college graduates can't find jobs based on their education. Read the following Yahoo News article; you will be shocked at the state of our economy.

My friend can't find a good job, he is taking intern jobs, then going on unemployment.

http://news.yahoo.com/1-2-graduates-jobless-underemployed-140300522.html

[A Yid]

Shmaryah you are misreading what I am saying. I
am not saying that charity is not binding upon gentiles simply because it wasn't commanded to them as part of 7 laws of Noah, but was accepted voluntarily.
I am simply saying that charity by gentiles has nothing to do with the details of halacha included in the charters of Jewish communities in Europe before 1700s . (It could be individual it could be communal it could be partially run by local state or federal governments, but there is no precise undisputed ruling as to how it should be done. )
Your point about the Rambam's opinion regarding 7 laws applying to gentiles living among Jews in Eretz Yisrael under Jewish dominion supports this same notion.
Neither Romney nor Obama nor most people one of them will govern next 4 years ever learned details of halacha as interpreted by our rabbis. They have never accepted upon themselves to abide by it.
And by the way the responsa you are referring to says nothing how an individual Jew should vote in the USA in 2012 just how the self governing Jewish communities were to be governed more than 300 years ago. No-one is bound by your interpretation as to what those rabbis would rule today as to who should we vote for.
PS. Btw it's doubtful that one fulfills ones obligation to give maaser simply by paying federal income taxes.
So in fact Ryan's platform (if he indeed plans to go ahead with it and succeeds and not simply pandering to his base) would cause more charity to be given not less.

[ohmy]

"When a society adopts a good practice an continues it for years, it is not a casual thing to stop it."

Good to see that you finally agree that a Minhag Jews have followed for ages is not that easy to stop doing by claiming it has no basis in halacha.Minhag Oiker Halacha.

[AztecQueen2000]

The US is Unique!
We're the only country (other than Somalia and the South Sudan--great company!) that has not signed the UN's Declaration on the Rights of the Child. In other words, we're one of three countries that can execute children.
We spend more on war, and have proportionately the highest number of prison inmates.
Our great innovation to solve the energy crisis was ethanol gasoline. In other words--moonshine (corn whiskey!) We're running cars off a food crop.
Our healthcare is so poor that our citizens are literally going overseas for better.
We have over 48 million uninsured Americans. This does not take into account those who are underinsured.
And yet, we still act like it's 1946, the rest of the civilized world is trying to rebuild from bombed-out rubble, and we're the only game in town. The rest of the world has rebuilt and surpassed us.

[jancsibacsi]

ohmy-He is a partner in owning the house,i am not making this up the reason he tells me about all this is a sort of a bal gava he wants to feel superior he wants to show that he is even better then you by being successful in accumilating so much money i am not going to write to you here about verything he does or tells me,and i have much much more i can tell you it would boggle youre mind trust me when i tell you that 80 per cent of my block is on sec.8

[Yaakov]

I'll preface me comment by saying that I have no intention of voting for either ticket in this race, so I have no axe to grind. That said, I think that there is a lt more heat than light in this "debate" about Shmarya's opinion piece.

As I understand it, Shmarya's pint is not that the candidates are obligated in any way to follow the halacha, rather, that a Jew who feels bound to the Jewish ethical tradition should consider their stated intentions in that light. He is pointing out that our tradition has an emphasis on helping the poor which would make removing civil support for them "un-Jewish".

Further, I think that he is using the halacha for rhetorical force, not justification. Something to the effect of "if you have learned from our ethical tradition you should consider how this candidates positions run counter to it, and even if you consider yourself bound to the halacha, and don't specially care about ethics qua ethics you also need to consider how un-Jewish this is."

I don't intend to put words in Shmarya's mouth, or into his fingers as the case may be, but that's my read.

[ohmy]

jancsib, i get the feeling that i cant trust you.No one in his right mind will tell YOU stuff like this vile di bist a groise fortz.

[jancsibacsi]

ohmy-hahahah ih bin a groisen fortz thats trash talk from you you are truly a disturbdt person,every word i wrote is toiras emes but you are mentally unstable youre burst out telling me that i am vile youre an animal what i expect of a farrikter hussid.

[Joe Field]

lazy I guess
Posted by: seymour | August 23, 2012 at 02:16 PM

You cannot be lazy and get a masters, it is a lot of work and dedication, therefore I most conclude it a BS story.

[WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar]

How did we enter into two wars- Afghanistan and Iraq- without any plan to finance either one?

During WW2, there were massive increases in taxes, food was rationed, unemployed people were drafted, and all industries were redirected towards the war effort. The government sold war bonds, thus putting the government into huge debt.

What was President Bush's advice to the American people regarding the economy and the war? "Go out and spend money to stimulate the economy!" And what was the war strategy? Winning the "hearts and minds" of the Afghan and Iraqi peoples by fighting a half-assed war where we didn't want to hurt anyone's feelings. Meanwhile, American soldiers die, and plenty of Americans see it as wars fought on behalf of Israel. You think most Americans are in love with Israel? Guess again.

The amount of money that Wall Street crooks have stolen from the American people could finance all health care and social programs. To all you frumma out there who are in love with the Republicans- Occupy Wall Street resonated with more Americans than you think.
The frumma hatred of Obama is irrelevant. NY State will go Democratic in the election. The frumma, as always, will be left in the rear view mirror, along with all other religious fanatics.

Even if Obama emptied out the US Treasury and handed it to the frumma, they would still hate him, because he is African American. Yes, that's right, you frumma are all filthy racists, along with the white trash branch of the Republican Party. And don't give me this crap about how much you respected Alan Keyes, or Herman Cain. Neither of them were ever actually serious candidates or would ever be nominated, so please spare me your fake interest in them.
Show me how many African Americans the frumma have ever actually voted for in any election, except for local NYC elections where it was AA vs. AA candidates. The frumma hate Democrats because they see them as the party of African Americans, but the frumma want to live with all the benefits of Democrats. Does anyone really believe the frumma give a shit about anything besides hating African Americans, and getting welfare checks, Medicaid, Section 8, Food Stamps, etc.?

Americans are utterly dependent on Arab oil, and even if there are other sources of oil and energy, the Arabs have tremendous influence on market prices of oil, and so we are beholden to them. Go to war against Syria? Piss off the Palestinians with inflammatory rhetoric? No American is interested. You frumma want war against the Arabs? Go send your sons and daughters to fight it.

[Yaakov]

Not all advanced degrees are equal. Depending on the degree, it might have no benefit in getting a job in the current economy.

An MS, in engineering, or a hard science, or in a medical area would be a sure job. An MBA is also likely to land something. An MA in humanities, or an MFA, or even in psychology, would not be any special help for a new graduate.

The engineering students have a joke at my university: "What does a liberal arts graduate say to an engineering graduate?" "Do you want fries with that?"

[Shmarya]

Posted by: A Yid | August 23, 2012 at 03:34 PM

To say that you lack even a simple level of ability to grasp an argument would be an understatement.

Again, Judaism expects a certain attitude and a certain level of support for the poor of a community.

In other words, the Torah has both an expectation and an outlook – a worldview, if you will.

That worldview conflicts with the social welfare-civil society policies advocated by Romney and Ryan.

Those are the facts.

Do with them as you will.

[WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar]

The current situation for a lot of young people, graduates of college with BA and MA degrees, is that there are no jobs, or there are unpaid internships or minimum wage jobs with no health benefits.
And that's the way Republicans want it. No regulations, no minimum wage, no health benefits, no unemployment benefits. The One Percenters. Screw everyone else.

And all those young people who are unemployed or underemployed are not going to vote Republican.

You frumma can keep chanting the drek you hear on Faux News and Talk Radio. You're whistling past the graveyard. The election is over. Romney already lost. The frumma along with all the other white trash drek can start crawling back beneath the woodwork.

[Joe Field]

There are no jobs, “my friend”
There are no jobs, my friend. 50% of 2012 college graduates can't find jobs based on their education. Read the following Yahoo News article; you will be shocked at the state of our economy.
Posted by: Lubavitchers are Christians | August 23, 2012 at 03:22 PM
Firstly, you are not my friend, and I don’t want to be your friend.

Secondly, you cite an article which is talking about BA not a masters.

[DBSesq]

Let's analyze the prattlings of the am ha'aretz point by point.

Society cannot "cut off welfare," and a society's ability to apply the death penalty when a Jewish country would not do so in no way allows it.

YOU HAVE YET TO EXPLAIN WHY THAT IS, OTHER THAN POSTULATE IT BECAUSE YOU WANT IT TO BE SO. MY LOGIC IS CLEAR, IF SOCIETY CAN KILL SOMEONE IN A FASHION NOT SANCTIONED BY HALACHA AS APPLIED TO JEWS, IT CERTAINLY CAN CHANGE ITS WELFARE POLICIES. ALSO IN YOUR SILLY ILL CONCEIVED HALACHIK MODEL YOU IGNORE THE HALACHOT CONCERNING KINGS AND THEIR POWER TO LEGISLATE L'TOVAT HAKEHAL; THAT INCLUDES CUTTING BENEFITS IF IT IS BELIEVED THAT SOCIETY WILL ULTIMATELY BENEFIT FROM DOING SO.

As I noted in a comment above (but will repeat again for the ethically challenged), the contention that "none of these [seven laws non-Jews are mandated to follow] laws requires charity" and that giving charity is voluntary for Gentiles, that is certainly a complete misrepresentation of what Judaism and halakha hold and envision.

JUDAISM DOES ENVISION GIVING CHARITY, AND INDEED LOOKS FAVORABLY UPON GENTILES DOING SO AS WELL. THAT HOWEVER SAYS NOTHING ABOUT THE PROPRIETY OF CUTTING THE SAFETY NET.

Rabbaynu Nissim clearly states that it is mandatory for Gentiles to give tzadaka to support the poor (Talmud Bavli, Sanhedrin 56b). The Rambam (Hilkhot Melachim 10:10) held that giving tzedaka to the poor was the proper way for Gentiles to behave and that their societies would gain Divine merit for doing it, even though giving tzedaka was not one of the Seven Laws. So if you believe the Ramabam is the final word for this issue halakhicly – and he certainly was not in this case – to say that supporting the poor in America is "voluntary" and leave it at that is a complete misrepresentation of his position.

I'LL HAVE TO CHECK THAT RAN INSIDE. (BTW ARE YOU REFERRING TO HIS GLOSSES ON THE RI"F OR HIS CHIDUSHIM? DO YOU KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO?) BUT MY HUNCH IS THAT YOU ARE RELYING ON A BAD TRANSLATION. OR YOU MAY JUST NOT COMPREHEND WHAT YOU'RE READING, PREFERRING TO SHOE HORN YOUR PRE-CONCEIVED NOTIONS INTO THE TEXT. PEOPLE LIKE YOU DO THAT ALOT.

Lastly, once a "voluntary" act like this is taken on and becomes the norm,, halakhicly you can't just stop doing it. It now has the force of halakha.

THIS IS ONE OF THE STUPIDER THINGS YOU'VE ARTICULATED. BY YOUR LOGIC, SINCE "MINHAG OKER DIN" IS THE DECISIVE NORM, CHAREIDIM ARE FORBIDDEN TO EVER STUDY SECULAR SUBJECTS, SINCE THEY HAVE NOT DONE SO FOR GENERATIONS. YOUR STUPIDITY MEANS THAT SLAVERY SHOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN ABOLISHED IN THIS LAND SINCE IT WAS A CENTURIES OLD PRACTICE. INSIDER TRADING SHOULD STILL BE ALLOWED. APPLYING YOUR NONSENSE TO RITUAL MEANS THAT WE SHOULD NEVER EVER CONSIDER ANY MODIFICATION TO RITUAL, INCLUDING WOMEN'S ROLES. I CAN GO ON, BUT THE IDIOCY OF WHAT YOU'RE SUGGESTING OUGHT TO BE CLEAR TO ANYONE POSSESSED OF ANYTHING MORE THAN FUNCTIONING BASAL GANGLIA. SO I GUESS YOU STILL DON'T GET IT.

[DBSesq]

A friend on Facebook posted this. It aptly sums up Shmarya's methods of debate:

10 Rules for Winning Arguments on the Internet
1. You are, by definition, perfect. It is impossible for you to be in error, and thus, you must never admit that somebody has brought an insight to the discussion which you had not thought of before.
2. Ban the Internet so people in your community won't be mislead by the arguments of others, but you yourself blog/facebook w
ith anonymous profiles so you can convince the poor shmoes on the other side to come over to what is obviously the right side: yours (see Rule 1).
3. Should you argue for a mainstream position, it's helpful to dismiss your sparring partner as being naturally attracted to radical ideas.
4. Should you argue for a position considered outside the mainstream, it's helpful to dismiss your sparring partner as brainwashed by the promoters of the status quo.
5. If your epistemology is religious, lie, and pretend that your religion has nothing to do with your beliefs. Cry that anybody who disagrees with your religious ideas is closed-minded. Remember to assert that any true rationalist would accept your views on abortion and your views on homosexuality as perfectly legitimate (if there are authorities within your religious tradition who disagree, ignore them; should they be brought up in the conversation, plow on and pretend they were never mentioned). It's important that people think that anybody who doesn't accept your arguments is just stupid.
6. If you're an atheist, remember, it's not just God: Every argument you're in disagreement with -- political, social, or aesthetic -- is based on irrational faith in a godlike concept.
7. You fall into no boxes. Your beliefs defy easy categorization. It's only the other guys who think in easily categorizable terms. Sociology is real, but it doesn't apply to you.
8. Be sure to dismiss anybody who strongly disagrees with your positions as arrogant or angry. People who are arrogant and angry are never right about anything.
9. When all else fails, resort to the argument from age: "When you get older, you'll see it my way. This is the sort of thing that comes from experience and maturity." Remember, you can tell how much experience and maturity a person has from one argument.
10. After the argument, stick it to your ideological foes by putting up a meme on facebook. If a meme's on your side, it can't be wrong!

[WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar]

Your '10 rules' are too complicated. Nobody cares. The don't resonate.

People say what they want, and that's the way we Americans like it, even if we get a little steamed up about it.

[WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar]

No modern country has ever run by halacha, nor ever will. Anything that has to be decided by octogenarians with black hats and beards is doomed to be stagnant.

America is not run by halacha, thank God. Neither party's views can be pinned to halacha.

Social issues and problems in America today are beyond the scope of mezuzah checking and panty stains. This entire thread was a waste of energy.

Time for the gym.

[Shmarya]

Posted by: DBSesq | August 23, 2012 at 04:46 PM

You are astoundingly ignorant.

Use your time in Otisville well, my friend. Learn.

And when you realize that the Ran does hold that tzedaka is mandatory for Gentiles you can go on to learn that Judaism does not dictate HOW a non-Jewish welfare program is structured – it dictates what that program must achieve, meaning how much help a poor person is required to get, etc.

[Liran]

Among the arguments made by Republican Vice Presidential Candidate Paul Ryan to support his plan to cut the social safety net for America’s poor and working poor is that America just can’t afford these social programs anymore. They cost too much.

How about talking about fixing up some of the problems that creates so many poor people in our country. As an example, fostering an environment that encourages exporting jobs to foreign countries causing the layoffs of countless number of people.

So Romney wants to dump the healthcare problems on the states and Ryan wants to walk away from the poor. Some winning team. They are only comfortable hobnobbing with the rich.

[Valhalla]

DBSesq--what are the rules about stealing from children in your school district?

[Jeff]

Shmarya, I've never agreed with you as much as I do at this moment. I don't know how you deal with these troglodytes, day after day. They make me tired of living.

[gil]

Jeff is a tool. Everyone knows it. I'm disgusted by his hatred of anything and everything religious.

[Jeff]

You're merely terrified that I may be right, and that you may be wasting your life on nonsense.

[God is not amused]

70% (28K people?about) Haredi of Kiryas Joel is on welfare gaming the system. Then there is the 100k Haredi in NYC probably another 85% of those gaming the system. Then there is the "illegal" or "working visa" crowdw working for the Haredi, who is also gaming the system via welfare. THESE ARE NOT NEEDY PEOPLE. These are greedy low lifes. Ryan/Romney is right GUT the system. These Parasites are gutting the taxpayer. My net worth would sky rocket if I didn't have to pay for some of these slugs. I have NO problem with throwing the Haredi on the street.
My mind still cannot grasp how they justify stealing from welfare by breeding. This level of disrespect to a country who has taken them in, and they turn around and steal from the system, while at the same time they harbor racist bigotedness towards those Christians whose money they steal, is appalling.Yeah, throw the bums off of taxpayer subsidy. They are not Jews in the real sense of a Jew. They are the lowest form of reptiles from the bowels of hell who bring shame and hell to Jews.

Israeli soccer players were disrespecedt by Hungarian fans. What gives??? Apparently Israeli BEARDS are in Hungary buying up Hungarian realestate property. Rents are so high only other foreign Jews can afford it. Some of these buildings are national treasures, so naturally seeing rich foreigners buy it then lock them out of enjoying it is unpalatable. Do we need Jews pulling crap like this?? I don't think so. THIS is what causes Europeans from welcoming Jews.

[God is not amused]

yes, yes, Judaism expects certain level of Tzedaka for the poor. Does Judaism also allow to forcibly make other people give Tzedaka by stealing via welfare? Apparently if does. NOT ONE RABBI has stepped out and PUBLICLY DENOUNCE communities like Kiryas Joel NOT ONE. Fifty million Rabbis drooling pseudo wisdom not one of them DENOUNCED stealing via welfare. NOT ONE CRITIzied the practice of breeding children that neither parent can provide for HOW DISGUSTING IS THAT? No, these slimy Rabbis ENCOURAGE young couples to SIN and get on welfare so they can get 40% kickback from these couples.
If I could I would kick every Haredi out of the country. They are not of God. They are fake, pseudo and parasitical and worse yet they call themselves Jews.

[God is not amused]

Jeff I am definitely not into "religiosity." But, do you not see the beauty of a grand designer in nature via physics?

Einstein said he wanted to know the mind of God.
Ironically he actually was looking at it.
Religiosity with all these babbling fools aka Rabbis/Popes.......whatever, completely obscure the wonder of GOD with their postulations of the whys and the wherefores. In all Gods glory HE made life very simple, all we have to do is observe nature.....we don't need no stinking guys running around in funky garbs(the pope in that red drag cracks me up. The Rabbis with those fur flying scaucersLOL!!!! ............to tell us about the glory, the beauty and the love of God, we just have to observe the nuances of nature.

[Chicago Sam]

As much as I like Shamarya, I cannot agree or accept his political view re/ Obama, who I believe to be a crook, a thug, and is a grave threat to Israel.

In addition, he is incompetent and deserves to be booted out of office; along with his extravagant wife, who spends millions on her lavish vacations.

[Jeff]

Jeff I am definitely not into "religiosity." But, do you not see the beauty of a grand designer in nature via physics?

I'm not opposed to it in principle, although as our understanding of the foundations of reality becomes more comprehensive and sophisticated, the more irrelevant the notion of a creator becomes.

In any case, if there is a personal creator, it is undeserving of our devotion.

[dh]

Honestly Jeff, I am in love with that little Curiosity. When it bopped onto Mars I started cheering and needed to wipe my eyes a time or two. I didn't have to jump up because I had been pacing for seven minutes.

To me the more comprehensive and sophisticated the foundation of reality is, going back or going forth, the more relevant is the feeling of, or for, a creation that wasn't happenstance. I view devotion as an entirely different matter. It is a very troublesome way to to go about living. But it's better than being brain dead.

[Yosef]

"PPS. I also remain baffled Shmaryah as to why you feel a need to keep up this charade of appealing to our observance of halacha on your selected pet topics as if halacha means something to you considering you reject foundations of faith such as divine revelation, exodus from Egypt etc. Why not honestly state that you are guided by secular humanist values and you are selectively using halacha hoping to manipulate part of your audience to vote for democrats?
08/23/2012 12:08
A Yid"

You hit the nail on the head.

[Korbendallas72]

In any case, if there is a personal creator, it is undeserving of our devotion.

Posted by: Jeff | August 23, 2012 at 11:02 PM

Right, because he only gave you everything.

[Shmarya]

"PPS. I also remain baffled Shmaryah as to why you feel a need to keep up this charade of appealing to our observance of halacha on your selected pet topics as if halacha means something to you considering you reject foundations of faith such as divine revelation, exodus from Egypt etc. Why not honestly state that you are guided by secular humanist values and you are selectively using halacha hoping to manipulate part of your audience to vote for democrats?
08/23/2012 12:08
A Yid"

You hit the nail on the head.

Posted by: Yosef | August 24, 2012 at 01:24 AM

The tweedle dee and tweedle dumb of haredi trolls.

Process, little men: even if your sick, disgusting, corrupt sect of evil men had sole control over and ownership of halakha and its history, it would be completely justified for the rest of us to take that halakha, show the world what it really says, and show that your cult isn't following it.

You claim to be halakhic Jews.

Fine.

Then demand that the poor be helped, that they be given "what they need" (as halakha puts it) so that they can live with dignity and security, so that they have safe housing and more than adequate food.

Demand that abortion law allow a woman and her advisers (family members, spiritual advisers, or clergy) decide, along with her doctors if necessary, whether it is best to have an abortion or not.

Demand that the rich pay taxes and that the loopholes they use to avoid them be closed.

All of those are halakhic positions. All of them are Jewish positions.

The problem is that they aren't conservative or Republican positions, and you 'halakhic' Jews care more about Rush Limbaugh, Eric Cantor and Paul Ryan than you do about the God you claim to worship and his law – the halakha – that you claim to follow.

[WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar]

++Right, because he only gave you everything.

Posted by: Korbendallas72 | August 24, 2012 at 06:55 AM++

This is strictly your imagination. Maybe you're right, maybe not.

Meanwhile, the frumma spend every moment, every thought, every action, every resource to worship this God based upon imagination.
The motivation is always fear of the Jewish God getting angry. The Torah spends a lot of time talking about how angry God gets, and how easy it is to get Him angry.
Fear of God getting angry at you and smiting you. Fear of your rabbis getting angry at you and declaring you persona non grata in the community. Fear of your fellow orthodox getting angry at you and cutting you off from your screwy little society.

Sorry, Korbendallas, I don't want to live with constant fear. I'll take a middle approach, maybe like the one alluded to by DH 12:01. There just may be a God, and I'll tip my hat to Him (or Her), and I'm sure He/She understands that I don't have to base my life on the words of elderly bearded black hats who want to run my life.

[Jeff]

Right, because he only gave you everything.

Posted by: Korbendallas72 | August 24, 2012 at 06:55 AM

You have no idea of what my life is like. I despise being alive. I have absolutely no gratitude for having been born. The life I've had to live for 55 years, you couldn't live for 55 minutes. And of course, this doesn't begin to address the ocean of human suffering.

I try to be patient with you because, as I've said, we're largely on the same page concerning Haredim - but you really are a smarmy little troll.

[Jeff]

The problem is that they aren't conservative or Republican positions, and you 'halakhic' Jews care more about Rush Limbaugh, Eric Cantor and Paul Ryan than you do about the God you claim to worship and his law – the halakha – that you claim to follow.

Posted by: Shmarya | August 24, 2012 at 07:13 AM

Yep. Of course, they're too thoroughly brainwashed to see it.

[WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar]

++and you 'halakhic' Jews care more about Rush Limbaugh, Eric Cantor and Paul Ryan than you do about the God you claim to worship and his law++

I believe that Jewish Republicans had their moment- when they ceased being Jews and began being Republicans- when they sided with Glenn Beck and declared George Soros to be a nazi collaborator during The Holocaust.

Utterly mindboggling, when a Holocaust survivor who eventually became incredibly successful- but whose politics you don't like- is declared a nazi collaborator by the ugliest form of revisionist Holocaust history- calling a Jewish Holocaust survivor a nazi- and the Jew Republicans lap it up like the pathetic drek that they are. Talk about self-hating Jews.

[Jeff]

Talk about self-hating Jews.

I can't deal with it at all any more; I really can't. As I said last night, they make me tired of living. This is a nation of morons and psychopaths, and apparently, the Jews are not immune.

[Korbendallas72]

I try to be patient with you because, as I've said, we're largely on the same page concerning Haredim - but you really are a smarmy little troll.

Posted by: Jeff | August 24, 2012 at 08:47 AM

Look man, I get that you're suffering. We all are. It's the end of the goddamn world and we all wish we were never here. One issue with the Haredim is that they can turn believers into non-believers with their egregiously offensive ways of dealing with outsiders and sowing hatred among the nations. I think blaming God for everything while giving him no credit is immature.

[Jeff]

I think relying on an Invisible Friend is immature. It's indicative of arrested development.

I understand that you're making a gesture, but you really don't get it. Don't bother trying.

[jancsibacsi]

Korbendallas72--I saw this movie last night called the 5th element the main star was bruce willis whos name in the movie was korben dallas did you copy it from that movie loved the movie?.

[Korbendallas72]

multipass

[jancsibacsi]

Korbendallas72--Ok KORBEN GOT IT:)

[Jeff]

I think blaming God for everything while giving him no credit is immature.

And something else - in Isaiah, your Invisible Friend very clearly takes responsibility for all of the shit that happens in the world:

I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things. - Isaiah 45:7 NIV

So apparently, you're no better versed in these matters and no less afflicted with cognitive dissonance than are the Haredim you so vehemently despise.

[Korbendallas72]

I'm sorry, did the prophet Isaiah fail to give God any credit, or did you? Also, you did provide an example of Jews who vote for Obama are doing so as an underlying resentment of God. Leftists are actually fighting God, but they have to call you crazy, stupid, or evil for even thinking such a thing... because it's true. They'll get very indignant and angry if you accuse them of this. They're all the same this way.

[Jeff]

You didn't understand my point, which doesn't surprise me.

You're an obnoxious little piece of crap. As I said in the other thread, don't address me again.