« Lopez To Step Down As Head Of Brooklyn's Dems After Sex Harassment Scandal | Main | What You Should Know About Chris Christie »

August 28, 2012

Comments

Feed You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

django

If the muslim sheikhs were doing this it would be a scandal

Jayman

You can sort of understand the Satmars and other groups like them, who are so simple-minded and backward that they literally don't know any different. The Chabadniks are part of the modern world--many doctors among them--or they have significant contact with modern science. They should know better.

Bob Guthrie

Posted by: Hamish McHorney
"Here is the "evidence" that debunks the DOH assessment."

Eh, chabad.info. Yeah, I will take their "knowledge" of the "complete safety" of Metzitzah b'peh as irrefutable as stormfront.org's "expertise" on all matters related to Jewish culture. =/

Hamish McHorney

Here is the "evidence" that debunks the DOH assessment.

http://www.chabad.info/index.php?url=article_en&id=28365

I used to believe in evolution. But surely people cannot be himan and this fucking stupid?

AztecQueen2000

"pseudo-doctors relying on outdated medical assumptions,"
Such as what? The germ theory of disease?
Introduce germs into the open wound of an infant with no active immunity (especially the genital area, which is rich with blood vessels) and you run the risk of killing said infant! How is this pseudo-science?

Sarek

Will their next proclamations be to reassure us that the earth is flat, the sun revolves around the earth, the earth is 6,000 years old, fossils were put there by God so we'd have something to play with in the dirt, and that Adam was missing a rib?

Althelion

I doubt whether any chabad rabbis will mention this at all to their congregants and program participants. An honest discussion of the chabad position on Metzitzah b'peh, like other controversial issues, could negatively impact the current and future donor base.

There is no rational defense for performing metzitzah b'peh today. Ironically, those that adamantly support this ritual on the basis of "tradition" are elevating it to a significance in Judaism that has never existed before.

Alter Kocker

So would the mohels performing this disgusting ritual object to their title (and yellow pages listing) changed to "Ritual Circumcisionist and Cock Sucker"?

Garnel Ironheart

How does one approach this respectfully with one's local shaliach?
After all, according to the Rebbe, "real" scientists believe the Earth is flat and that the sun revolves around it. So why should I care what he said about "real" doctors?

Having said that, I can provide a rational for direct MbP that would have made sense in earlier times. Consider that before anti-sepsis was known about little was done to keep a wound clean. Saliva has natural anti-bacteria property which means coating a wound in it might reduce the risk of infectin. Now, compared to today's standards the decrease in risk is minimal and combined with the rise of STD's it's actually dangerous but back in times of yore when the alternative was, well, nothing, it might actually have made a difference.

Barry

Understand where you're going, but the Gemara very often discusses situations that were simply theoretical (like an elephant swallowing a basket then later depositing it intact on the Temple steps) and in no way based in reality.

Posted by: Rebitzman | August 29, 2012 at 06:28 AM

This is more than a discussion. It is halacha.

Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah 263.4

"A women whose first son died as a result of circumcision it lost its strength. They circumcised the second one and he died as a result of the circumcision. We don't circumcise the third one until he is grown up and reached his full strength because he might die. This is the law if a man had a son and he died from the circumcision, he had another who died from the circumcision we don't circumcise the third one whether they were from one wife or from two. (there are those who argue and hold that it is not with a man only with a woman (chidush agudah we see in perek rabbi Eliezer de milah) and in questions of life we are lenient)"

That said, the average poor ghetto Jew who lost 2 or 3 sons did not know this halacha and his rabbi was unlikely to inform him of it.

Infant mortality was very high in pre-modern times because of poor sanitation. We do not know what proportion of such mortality was due to circumcision (and MbP) but logic dictates it must be substantial. It is possible that a baby born in Satmar for example, had a greater chance of dying by infection because of the actions of a mohel than a Aztec baby had for being chosen for human sacrifice.

WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar

Orthodox Jew wearing yarmulke breaks into neighbor's home, steals silver menorah, caught on camera.

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/brooklyn/nab-man-brazen-brooklyn-heist-10g-heirloom-menorah-article-1.1145794

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/brooklyn/prosecutors-charge-denis-ildatov-stealing-10-000-silver-menorah-alleged-thief-linked-break-ins-brooklyn-article-1.1146773

Jack

Shmarya:

Who signed this letter?

Posted by: Yaakov | August 28, 2012 at 06:01 PM


Rabbi Aharon Yaakov Schwei
Member, Crown Heights Beis Din

Rabbi Yosef Yeshaya Braun
Member, Crown Heights Beis Din

Rebitzman

The Gemarah would not have discussed this issue unless this was a common occurrence.

Understand where you're going, but the Gemara very often discusses situations that were simply theoretical (like an elephant swallowing a basket then later depositing it intact on the Temple steps) and in no way based in reality.

Yosef ben Matitya

sure they endorse, they stand for everything obscure.

Barry

The Gemarah in Yebamos 64b discusses whether one should exempt a baby from circumcision if two or three previous babies from that baby's mother died through the procedure. The Gemarah would not have discussed this issue unless this was a common occurrence.

There was no knowledge of sanitation or the need for a sterile operating environment until relatively recently. It seems pretty obvious that throughout the centuries before such knowledge came about, there must have been vast number of babies who died through infections contracted through circumcisions.

dh

Bob, I had an entirely different reaction to the Chabad advisory. So maybe that's the problem. I became elated and a bissel gleeful.

I was immediately plotting where to accidentally leave it. Folks around these parts are intimidated by black hats and hold them high as precious heroes closer to Gd. Perhaps they would be seen as mere people if anyone but one of them happened upon it near the kosher butcher or the kosher bakery. Aah, good times.

It's proof, don't you see, to the people they hurt and robbed who only have their own story, that there is something pathologically wrong with black hat logic / intimidation. No one need be obsequious around them.

Nachum

You have to love the primitive use of the words "according to the doctors."

No Light

Wow, the trolls are now so stupid that they can't even think up a name?

That explains why his 'arguments' are so poor. Bless him.


Nameless troll - how do you propose to deal with pre-viability foetuses (not babies) who survive abortion?

Perhaps you could try your magical cult ritual of giving them booze and then sucking their genital area?

You could call yourself David ChaBlaine!

Bob Guthrie

Posted by: dh
"Bob Guthrie I said "you" not the subject matter. And I find your delivery hilarious."

Sorry, the subject is freakin irritating. One dead infant is one baby too many to justify this version of bris. And the Chabad pontification didn't help either.

Yeah, as soon as I hit "enter", I knew that my response to you was a little uncalled for. My apologies again.

Bob Guthrie

Posted by: I can't think of a name yet
"Bob, you are stupid, eh?."

Proper extremist Charedim or supporter introductions, as expected. No, I'm not, but thanks for playing. Shall we continue?.

Part #1:

"Why do you get hung up on MBP on an 8-day old, but not on the murder of a 1-day old abortion survivor, which Obama supports and voted for."

I will go slow so you can grasp the concept: FM, a forum dedicated to the discussion of matters related to extremist Charedim fallacies within the Jewish population, in this case the subject of the use of an alternate bris method called metzitzah b'peh, with could pose possible fatal consequences to infants.

So, people start discussing the matter, but, alas, enter you stage left, with a point taking a political pot shot to people and matters you don't agree with. A point not related to the subject discussed.

I.e. Going off in a tangent, not staying in course, derailing the discussion, obfuscating the debate, etc, etc, skippy.

What part of "Chabad Rabbis Endorse Dangerous Penis Sucking Ritual, Tell Chabad To Convince Other Jews To Have It Done To Their Babies" lead you to conclude that it suggested the interjection of Illinois state senator Barack Obama's voting record on abortion?.

"But it's abortion!, is the same!, I have the right to suggest he is a Baby Killer too." Yes, yes you can write that, but expect to be called to the carpet for it not being the same or related, as I did so.

*Shorter?: Obama's voting record on an abortion measure not Chabad's endorsement of possible fatal alternate bris method.

*Shorter still?: Abortion: cessation of life functions on fetuses or nonviable unborns/Metzitzah b'peh: Possible fatality of a 8 days old Baby.

*"Duh" version?: Abortion not Metzitzah b'peh.

Clear?, good boy,...

Part #2:

"Answer: because you don't give a shit about babies. You only give a shit about banning religious rituals. Very tolerant you at, eh?."

Huh. Me telling you that Obama's abortion stand does not equate to Metzitzah b'peh's chances of fatalities equals to me calling for the prohibition of Jews to perform Brit Milah?.

Hmm, yeah, sure. You run with that one, bubbe. Now go out and have fun in the playground. ^.^

Just stay on target, Porky.

Korbendallas72

This is nothing more than a hazing, initiating defenseless boys into the perverted sexual world of the Haredi, disguised as a religious ritual.

Posted by: Hometown Postville | August 28, 2012 at 10:35 PM

We have a winner. Thanks for playing, everyone.

I can't think of a name yet

Bob, you are stupid, eh? Why do you get hung up on MBP on an 8-day old, but not on the murder of a 1-day old abortion survivor, which Obama supports and voted for.

Answer: because you don't give a shit about babies. You only give a shit about banning religious rituals. Very tolerant you at, eh?

dh

Bob Guthrie I said "you" not the subject matter. And I find your delivery hilarious. Geez, I hope you are going for hilarious.

I have said here that I am interested in learning and being amused. You are economical.

Hometown Postville

This is nothing more than a hazing, initiating defenseless boys into the perverted sexual world of the Haredi, disguised as a religious ritual.

A. Nuran

My Father spent over fifty years as a Urologist. Fellow of the American College of Surgeons. Fellow of the American Urological Association. Mohel. Some-time Professor of Urology.

His considered, professional response to MBP?

"Gak! Yeesh! That's disgusting!"

Bob Guthrie

@dh

And apologies in case I seemed too brusque responding to your post, dh.

Bob Guthrie

Posted by: dh
"You are so funny."

Do you think this a hilarious subject?. I'm sorry, dh, but you will have to excuse me this time if I don't find the mater mirthful.

dh

You are so funny - Bob Dylan, Woody Guthrie.... I mean Bob Guthrie

Bob Guthrie

Posted by: I can't think of a name yet
"By the way, as Illinois state senator, Barack Obama...".

Aaand here we go: "Here, here!. Look at the shiny keys!. Look away from the subject of Chabat approving, and "suggesting" other Jews to have performed on their own children, the practice of metzitzah b'peh, a bris variant that involves orally sucking the blood off the newly circumcised baby's penis, never mind that it carries a chance to infect the baby with viral diseases, like Herpes, which can cause organ damage... or... death...".

"Shiny keys?."

Putz.

Steven

Gotta love the logic.

Things like: "Their words have been printed in many books". And if you read it on the internet, it has to be true.

Or: "This was also explained by many doctors and scientists who debunked all the negative hype caused by pseudo-doctors relying on outdated medical assumptions, who chose to ban before researching it."

Name 3.

Shmarya

I have no doubt but that they represent the views of Chabad, but I have never seen a beit din (which requires 3 at a minimum) to release an opinion under 2 signatures. Is there something different about Chabad rules?

The Crown Heights Beit Din does it all the time, and all of the rabbis on the beit din do it.

The 'report child sexual abuse' letter was the same, and when I pointed out that the whole beit din hadn't signed it, and three rabbis were needed for a pesak din (although one of those can dissent), what I wrote was ignored by pretty much everyone (including you, apparently, ;-) ).

It's on the beit din's official letterhead. It's real. It's official.

Rebitzman

For Gosh sake.......

I have no doubt but that they represent the views of Chabad, but I have never seen a beit din (which requires 3 at a minimum) to release an opinion under 2 signatures. Is there something different about Chabad rules?

I wasn't speaking literally, BUT a quick search on either reveals that these two guys very often release notices under their signatures and only their signatures that are absolutely the most restrictive, narrowly written and right leaning opinions that have come out of 770 (ex: their similar letter last year around tsunis).

My question WAS and IS: why is it signed by two, and only two members of the beit din? And why are these too so often up front?

Shmarya

I am curious - what do the other members of the Beit Din think? Seems like every time an overly restrictive opinion is released from 770 these two and only these two rabbis sign it.

Posted by: Rebitzman | August 28, 2012 at 09:21 PM

That isn't even remotely factually correct.

Rebitzman

I am curious - what do the other members of the Beit Din think? Seems like every time an overly restrictive opinion is released from 770 these two and only these two rabbis sign it.

seymour

I wonder why is it that they go to get treated with modern medics why not just do what doctors did 1300 years

MarkfromShortHills

This is flatly criminal.

I have discussed MBP with a member of my bike club. He is a mohel and a Chabad rabbi, and he told me that he does not practice MBP. I have sent him an email about this and await his answer.

It will be interesting to see how he responds to Chabad's statement that: " The Mohalim should continue the tradition of the Bris as it was until now, without changing anything at all, Heaven Forbid. Whomever does not have the courage to stand up and follow the rules should retire from the job, and he is not fit to be a Mohel if he did not do all three parts - Milah, Pri'ah and Metzitzah B'peh."

moshe

Maybe they're doing kiruv in the gay community, showing off their best talent.

jancsibacsi

The more anti social behaviour the better this is the hassidishe motto,their whole exitance is anti social the more repugnant it is the better it is this is their trade mark.

Shmarya

whats the risk factor? 3.4 TIMES greater then what?

Posted by: the story | August 28, 2012 at 08:09 PM

Sigh.

Than those who are circumcised without MBP.

Well publicized information here and in hundreds of newspaers, radio news casts and tv newscasts worldwide.

A. Nuran

So Chabad is full of cocksuckers. אין חדש תחת השמש

Pedophilic ones, no less

WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar

Here come the trolls! Hasidic Penis Sucking Trolls!

the story

whats the risk factor? 3.4 TIMES greater then what?

Shmarya

So it's just 3% more?

No.

3.4 TIMES greater. I made a mistake typing but fixed it now.

I can't think of a name yet

So it's just 3% more? And for that we're going to infringe on religious freedoms? Hmmm. By the way, as Illinois state senator, Barack Obama voted to allow the killing of a live child if the child survived an abortion attempt and was born live. We're all okay with that. But if the child lives another eight days and gets MBPS which only raises the risk by 3% according to CDC, my that's terrible. Can't we all admit that we don't give a shit about an eight day old baby any more than the children aborted as they are born. It's all about taking away religion.

Alter Kocker

Really
They are in total denial of medical fact? Many doctors are refusing to take patients who smoke. Paediatricians should similarly refuse to take on the children of families that participate in this most barbaric of rituals.

Do not get me wrong, I am for ritual circumcision, however, direct oral genital contact during the bris is not only disgusting, but plainly dangerous. You want to make a mark on the community; start warning parents that if they submit to this, then social services will intervene and take their children. This is child endangerment. The state has the right to protect it's most defenseless citizenry.

If a mohel or rabbi complains, then they too should see the inside of a jail cell close-up.

R.W.

Was the original in English?

Even the translation is barely english.

WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar

Still hoping to see a NY Post headline "Hasidic Penis Sucking Ritual".

seymour

I wonder if their son get a cut on their leg do they clean it with water or do they clean it by licking it since it helps in healing?

they should join Todd Akin who Claims Breastmilk Cures Homosexuality

Fleishike Kishke

Maybe I'll put the same message on my 'Rasha Shanna' cards.

Fleishike Kishke

In a nutshell the letter says, 'Keep sucking the bloody penis, and Happy New Year.'

It's time to send the 101st Airborne into the US Haredi Community to conquer some hearts and minds.

jancsibacsi

Its an insane world we live in,as the song goes ,its a jungle out there i wonder how i keep from going under.

Eli, what me messiah?

Rabbi Aharon Yaakov Schwei and Rabbi Yosef Yeshaya Braun should be criminally charged for endangering children, and as accessories to murder the next time a baby dies of MBP. What psychos.

And they show they are acting with knowledge of the danger, "Obviously, if a Mohel has any sickness which can cause damage, he should not do Metzitzah B'peh"

So they admit the risk exists. And if the mohel's sick and doesn't know it?

Office of the Chief Rabbi

So Chabad is full of cocksuckers. אין חדש תחת השמש

Shmarya

Rabbi Aharon Yaakov Schwei and Rabbi Yosef Yeshaya Braun on the Beit Din's official letterhead.

I just put it in my post now, after seeing your comment and realizing I had forgotten to note that originally.

Chicago Sam

The Chabad morons never know when to quit.

Yaakov

Shmarya:

Was the original in English?

Yaakov

Shmarya:

Who signed this letter?

SkepticalYid

Any moment now the ignoramus troll brigade will start comparing the risk of death via MBP to the risk of dying in a car accident.

WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar

Visit 770, and you will see all kinds of printed drek laying around, whether it's about the Rebbe being alive and well, or how innocent Rubashkin or various other frumma criminals are, or this kind of nonsense.

The comments to this entry are closed.

Failed messiah was established and run in 2004 by Mr. Shmarya (Scott)Rosenberg. The site was acquired by Diversified Holdings, Feb 2016.
.
We thank Mr. Rosenberg for his efforts on behalf of the Jewish Community

.

Comment Rules

  1. No anonymous comments.
  2. Use only one name or alias and stick with that.
  3. Do not use anyone else's name or alias.
  4. Do not sockpuppet.
  5. Try to argue using facts and logic.
  6. Do not lie.
  7. No name-calling, please.
  8. Do not post entire articles or long article excerpts.
***Violation of these rules may lead to the violator's comments being edited or his future comments being banned.***

Search this site with Google:

6a00d83451b71f69e201b8d1656462970c-250wi

FailedMessiah.com in the Media