Lying To Protect Metzitzah B'Peh

Haredi representatives use lies to protect metzitzah b'peh (MBP), the direct oral-to-penis sucking done by many mohels (Jewish ritual circumcisers) immediately after cutting off the baby’s foreskin, from regulation by  NYC's Board of Health.

A Modern Orthodox mohel in Israel doing metzitzah. Outside of Israel, MBP is an almost exclusively haredi practice.

Regulating Metzitzah B’Peh?
Shmarya Rosenberg • FailedMessiah.com

A New York City’s Board of Mental Health and Hygiene held a hearing yesterday to discuss plans to have parents sign a consent form that details the risks of metzitzah b’peh (MBP), the direct oral-to-penis sucking done by many mohels (Jewish ritual circumcisers) immediately after cutting off the baby’s foreskin.

As you’d expect, haredi rabbis showed up to defend the practice – which has killed several children and caused severe brain damage in at least two others, along with infecting at least a dozen more in the NYC metropolitan area and its suburbs during the past 11 years alone.

There are no firm statistics, but based on the stats I’ve seen, a baby is more likely to be sickened or killed by MBP than by gun violence, meaning that if all American babies were circumcised at eight days and had MBP done to them, more would end up hospitalized and maimed than American children up to the age of 5 are killed or injured by gun violence.

Despite that, and despite the US Centers for Disease Control’s warning on MBP’s dangers, haredi rabbis leapt to the defense of MBP. And, as has been their norm, they did so in part by lying.

Rabbi A. Romi Cohn American Board of Ritual Circumcision reportedly made sure to tell the hearing that he is a Holocaust survivor – presumably to link any regulation of MBP to Nazi antisemitism.

Then Cohn tried to blame disease transmitted by MBP on untrained, unapproved mohels.

“I myself have performed 25,000 circumcisions, and, thank God, we have not had one single incident … our guidelines are, I think, much stricter than the medical profession.”

But, Cohn claimed, some people who are not certified mohels according to halakha, Jewish law, pretend to be and do circumcisions.

“This is completely forbidden, but unfortunately they are doing it. These people don’t know what sterility means. They don’t know about infection. We try to tell parents that if they choose a circumciser, he should be board-certified.”

What Cohn did not tell the hearing is that Rabbi Yitzchok Fischer, who has infected children with MBP who ended up maimed or dead, has kabbalah, the ordination halakha requires to mohels to have. He also has the backing of many haredi rabbis – including senior haredi rabbis.

So does Rabbi Yonoson Binyomin Goldberger, who wrote a leading book on supporting MBP and circumcision that was endorsed by leading haredi rabbis. He was forced to stop doing MBP after he infected at least two children with herpes through MBP.

Rabbi Cohn is a liar.

So is a Chabad mohel, Rabbi Levi Heber.

“Being a mohel is a religious status…I cannot follow an outside authority,” Heber, the director of the International Bris Association, reportedly told the hearing. “If we feel that our religious freedom is being restricted, we have the right to challenge it in court … we are ready, if needed, to challenge this.”

But Jewish law mandates Jews to follow the law of land unless it directly conflicts with a Torah law, and Jewish law does not consider MBP to be a part of the circumcision ritual itself. Instead, it is a health measure done to speed healing, just like putting cumin powder on the baby’s open penis wound. Both MBP and cumin powder have exactly the same status in Jewish law, and they are not part of the biblically mandated circumcision procedure.

But cumin powder hasn’t been used by mohels in a very long time, because better sources of promoting healing have been found.

Only haredim treat MBP as frozen in time, as if 1800 year old Mishnaic medicine, itself based on Galen, who lived decades before that, trumps empirical science, antibiotics and germ transmission theory. But it doesn’t, not in real life and not even in halakha.

And so haredim continue to lie.

The Board of Health plans to issue its decision on the informed consent this September.

For his part, NYC Mayor Michael Bloomberg – who sold out to Satmar the last time this issue was in the spotlight, after Satmar dressed some of its hasidim in Holocaust death camp uniforms and yellow stars and accused Bloomberg of mimicking the Nazis – has been nearly silent about the city’s most recent infant death from MBP, while at the same time he banned big gulp sodas and railed against guns. In the latter case, he blamed President Obama for not taking action to ban assault rifles and regulate sales of large caliber ammunition.

Obama, Bloomberg said, had let politics get in the way of doing the right thing.

And Bloomberg should know because that is exactly what Bloomberg did with MBP seven years ago, and it is exactly what he’s doing with it now.

Comments

[Rebitzman]

The one time I expect the Spanish Inquisition.........

I'm a little surprised. Didn't expect the Nazi Card to be played quite this early.

[Alter Kocker]

Fuck the Haredim:
Ban this practice immediately. If they do not like it they can go to jail or give their sons up for adoption.

[Bary]

Can you tell me again what MBP is?

[netflix]

"I myself have performed 25,000 circumcisions"

That's a lot of diq

[God is not amused]

Children subjected to pedophelia right from birth. And we wonder why the race is cursed? Stop these demons from hell right now.

[Mike]

I wish they would have the balls and make smoking illegal. So many people die because of it. Politics as usual gets in the way. Could you imagine the fight the tobacco lobby would put up!

[a pshute jew]

torah un mitvos

[WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar]

++Mike | July 24, 2012 at 11:18 AM++

The tobacco lobby still denies that smoking causes cancer.

[WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar]

Let the frumma keep sucking dicks of all frum boys. It's what they do and enjoy. As long as they are sucking the dicks of frumma children, it shouldn't bother the rest of society.
This practice needs to be publicized so that anything thinking of hiring a frum mohel understands what will be done to their baby.

[Deremes]

WSC-and a good professional frum mohel will NOT preform a bris if the parents wont allow him to do MBP.

[SarahBracha]

They are afraid of informed consent because informed consent requires that the parents be told of documented possible complications. If parents had to sign a vetted document, in language they could clearly understand, that stated that their child could be sickened or die from MBP, some might refuse. We had our son circumcised at home by a mohel who is also a surgeon. He followed most of the hospital protocol. Some family members were concerned that the bris wasn't kosher (enough) - I say, to hell with that - my son had no pain because we used an anesthetic, aseptic technique protocols were followed, minimizing the risk of infection, and his circ. was done cleanly and skillfully. People with no medical training, only religious study and apprenticeship should NOT be performing surgery!!!!

[dh]

Mike, newborn babies don't have a lobby. Their lobbyist is FM.

[seymour]

WSC-and a good professional frum mohel will NOT preform a bris if the parents wont allow him to do MBP.

Posted by: Deremes | July 24, 2012 at 11:38 AM

not true, since many us a tube.

Only the chasideyth still insist doing this harmful practice

[Eric]

> I myself have performed 25,000 circumcisions

That's one a day for nearly 70 years.

[jancsibacsi]

The hassidishe world thrives on vile and despicable behaviour it is their trade mark the viler the better.

[WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar]

++jancsibacsi | July 24, 2012 at 12:25 PM++

That sums it up perfectly.

[Alter Kocker]

And these people wonder why their ignorant practices bring the anti-semitic spotlight onto us. Explain this to your non-jewish aquaintances: At eight days we take little boys, surround them with family and friends, and then a complete stranger hacks off the skin covering the dick, and then sucks on the dick. And the family shouts Mazel-tov with joy and abandon.

Does anyone feel slightly nauseated-cause I do! So very very proud!

[Gevezener Chusid]

I myself have performed 25,000 circumcisions

That's one a day for nearly 70 years.

Posted by: Eric | July 24, 2012 at 12:24 PM

Your point, Eric, is what?

Mohels can an do perform many brissen in one day in the frum community. Romi Cohen has been a Mohel for at least 35 years. (So even if he averaged only 2 a day, he's still on target numerically. He has performed hundreds if not thousands of brissen for Russian immigrants, free of charge.)

[itchiemayer]

Bloomberg is too involved in the 32 oz soda to pay attention to this trivial matter. For the record, it is easy to find a frum Mohel to do a bris without MBP.

[WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar]

This story has been going on for years, and the NY politicians will always do what the frumma dictate, so I consider it a waste of time to take this matter seriously, because nothing will change. The frumma are in charge of NY politics, and that's all there is to it.

http://forward.com/articles/9654/doctors-say-circumcision
-ritual-still-not-safe/

[BibleBeltJew]

Mr. Jancsi, are you entirely well? Your comment is absurd in the extreme, as are you. "... the viler the better." Really? What exactly is vile about licht bentschen, for example? You must be an Auburn fan.

[jancsibacsi]

BibleBeltJew-What is youre problem that i fing mbp repugnant and vile? then you are brain damaged go get a new brain.

[Bas Melech]

Are mothers advised to stay away from a bris because of the cutting or the MBP?

[BibleBeltJew]

Okay Mr. Jancsi, you win. I am obviously over-matched linguistically and intellectually, so I will bow out somewhat gracefully. I must ask: You earlier alluded to being retired - Is this what one has to look forward to in one's 'golden years'? Awaiting Reb Shmarya's internet karbonote, vilifying Judaism in all of its iterations, and re-hashing imagined mikveh abuses in the olde country? War Eagle to you, Sir!

[jancsibacsi]

BibleBeltJew-You can kiss my tohes if you dont like what i am doing.

[dh]

BBJ, where have u been jelly bean? It's been so long I can't remember if we're fur ya or agin ya.

[Bas Melech]

BBJ-

Don't taunt or minimize another person's pain. Do you believe that people make up stories about being molested?

If you do, take a hike off a short pier.

[BibleBeltJew]

Hey DH, I wish I could say 'twas good to be back but the usual suspects (sycophants, self-haters, wankers, Yankees, catamites, & cheder drop-outs) appear to have taken control of the asylum, and Nurse Ratched (Reb Shmarya) has left the building. I was kinda hoping that Mr. Jancsi had taken up a new hobby such as shuffleboard or air guitar, but sadly, No. Has Yaakov left, and taken his snappy picture with him? Seymour, WSC, & Jancsi: the floor is yours, and I wish y'all an EZ 9Av (seriously). Roll damn Tide!

[jancsibacsi]

Bas Melech-Thank you for coming to my defense sorry to say but this bbj is a mental case he doesnt see anything wrong with his unbeleivable indifference to others pain in fact he is happy to mention the thing elated that hurts the most he is not a jew but a mindless tantunm thrower with a 2 years old brain

[BibleBeltJew]

Bas Melech: Crystal Mangum, Wanetta Gibson, Hofstra Univ, etc. The most recently-available stats from the FBI indicate between 8%-15% of rape allegations are "Unfounded," with spousal rape allegations returning even higher numbers. Assuming those numbers are even inflated by 2, or 5, or 10, that's a lot of fabrication. I'm sure that Mr. Jancsi believes his story, but does that mean we have to? I do like piers, thanks!

[jancsibacsi]

BBJ-You are truly sick you really beleive that i made it up unbeleivable,i just have no words to describe youre naivete,its all a joke to you i see until it happenes to youre children if you have any,youre to spoiled to really grasp the enormity of it.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Maybe chareidim mistake MBP for MVP and they want their bungalow colony baseball teams to win on Tisha B'Av.

[seymour]

And the family shouts Mazel-tov with joy and abandon.

Does anyone feel slightly nauseated-cause I do! So very very proud!

Posted by: Alter Kocker | July 24, 2012 at 01:37 PM

reminds me of Seinfeld episode about a mohel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlPNp8gm3aI

[seymour]

reminds me of Seinfeld episode about a mohel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlPNp8gm3aI

Posted by: seymour | July 24, 2012 at 05:49 PM

oops did not the the last seconds sorry about that

[Ra's Al Gahul]

If a man sucks adult dick, then of course must be "accepting, tolerant", like that is normal.

[Shmarya]

If a man sucks adult dick, then of course must be "accepting, tolerant", like that is normal.

Posted by: Ra's Al Gahul | July 24, 2012 at 06:14 PM

Idiot.

Two consenting adults having sex is in no way comparable to an adult sucking a baby's penis.

The baby cannot consent, and can be seriously harmed or killed from the sucking.

[Ra's Al Gahul]

The numbers of consenting men who were harmed or killed from engaging in dick -sucking and getting fucked up the ass is probably in the millions.

[Shmarya]

Posted by: Ra's Al Gahul | July 24, 2012 at 06:36 PM

Please.

Anal sex, yes.

Oral sex? Much less so.

But these are consenting adults, most of whom became ill before AIDS was understood.

And none of this changes the fact that you just can't process: 8-day-old babies cannot consent.

[Jeff]

not true, since many us a tube.

Only the chasideyth still insist doing this harmful practice

Posted by: seymour | July 24, 2012 at 12:17 PM

In Deremes' warped world view, Hasidim are the only truly frum Jews - probably the only real Jews, period.

[Ra's Al Gahul]

You can't give them blood tests, vaccinations, or ct scans without their consent either. Vaccinations and ct scans can and do cause permanent and immutable harm, in some cases. So, clearly there I'd no requirement of infant consent.

[Jeff]

Roll damn Tide!

Posted by: BibleBeltJew | July 24, 2012 at 04:35 PM

I should have said it a long time ago - repeating this inane statement (and yes, I know what it means) over and over, in nearly every comment, is almost certainly indicative of a developmental disability.

Not that anything else you say is ever of any value.

[Jeff]

Explain this to your non-jewish aquaintances: At eight days we take little boys, surround them with family and friends, and then a complete stranger hacks off the skin covering the dick, and then sucks on the dick. And the family shouts Mazel-tov with joy and abandon.

Does anyone feel slightly nauseated-cause I do! So very very proud!

Posted by: Alter Kocker | July 24, 2012 at 01:37 PM

I still have no way to explain to non-Jews that once a year my nephew swings a chicken over his head.

[dh]

BBJ, nooow I remember. We're agin ya! Don't be mean to my peeps. Yup, Yaakov is not posting at present. I noticed him on another site. Not by the Brooks Brothers snappy photo but by the extreme emphasis on certain words so Gd forbid we wouldn't miss a morsel. And I've been labelled a troll. Besides Shmarya my newest hero is Jeff. Seriously.

It gives me a frowny face with all the insults. Some good minds here. Sadly, mine included, we should all use them a little more.

[Ra's Al Gahul]

All of you shitheads doing all this complaining ought to stop torturing yourselves. Maybe you're right, maybe this religion is no good and not for you. Move on, join the Aryan Nation, become Hindus, or have sex with goats, if that's what you want.

[Jeff]

All of you shitheads doing all this complaining ought to stop torturing yourselves. Maybe you're right, maybe this religion is no good and not for you. Move on, join the Aryan Nation, become Hindus, or have sex with goats, if that's what you want.

Posted by: Ra's Al Gahul | July 24, 2012 at 07:01 PM

You're right. We obviously don't make the cut. Look at what a shining example of wit and refinement they've produced in you.

[Ra's Al Gahul]

Shmarya,
At what age did you start sucking dick?

[jancsibacsi]

Ra's Al Gahul-Ver geharget, means get killed, you lowlife trash.

[Ra's Al Gahul]

Jancsibacsi, isn't wishing death upon someone a little extreme,for i believing Shmarya sucks dick, that he is a ham-slammer? What's wrong with a man getting a hot meat injection in his mouth? We should celebrate it, and be proud.

[Alter Kocker]

Ra's al ghul
First-fuck off for stealing the name of a fairly decent Batman villain. You probably have no idea who or what Ra's Al Ghul was all about-even if you did watch the movie. Second, your twisted version of judaism is what is tearing a people apart. Here is what you do: go find yourself a time machine and go back to the 18th century-Poland or Russia or even Lithuania. You and your kind will be most comfortable there.

[dh]

Who is Ra 's Al Galwhatever, really? Sounds familiar. Don't fall for it.

[Ra's Al Gahul]

Alter, you miss several important points. First, and most importantly, I am very familiar with the villain. I didn't steal anything, no more than you stole the words alter kocker. Second, I don't defend anything. I am not a chareidi. I don't think mbp should be done. But that is not the issue. I am simply stating that people who find the religion in intolerable offensive should go their merry way.

[dh]

RAG, but that is the issue. Simplified, for you. And this is people going their own way. This is what it looks like. The baby fetishists went their own way and that way bears little resemblance to Judaism. Everybody is going their own way except you. You are just in everyone's way. Still.

[jancsibacsi]

Ra's Al Gahul-Drop dead again in plain english you mamzer.

[jancsibacsi]

Ra's Al Gahul- dummy its not the religion its the dummies like you who interpret it in that way the mbp way when to any decent human it is repugnant,you only come here to stir up the crap so it should stink to high heavens.

[dh]

jancsi, don't insult the mamzerim.

[Ra's Al Gahul]

Mr/Miss jan.... You are incoherent. Didn't take your meds today?

[Shmarya]

You can't give them blood tests, vaccinations, or ct scans without their consent either. Vaccinations and ct scans can and do cause permanent and immutable harm, in some cases. So, clearly there I'd no requirement of infant consent.

Posted by: Ra's Al Gahul | July 24, 2012 at 06:50 PM …

~~~~~~~~~~~

Mr/Miss jan.... You are incoherent. Didn't take your meds today?

Posted by: Ra's Al Gahul | July 24, 2012 at 09:30 PM

You're the incoherent one.

There is no proof at all that vaccines cause harm or that CT scans normally used cause harm.

However, both vaccines and CT scans have saved hundreds of thousands of lives, if not more.

However, MBP does nothing good at all, but it does do bad things – like infect babies and even kill them.

Past that, to posit that giving a baby a treatment that is proven to save lives proves that treating babies doesn't require consent, and therefore MBP is perfectly okay to do is, quite frankly, insane. Your contention doesn't follow logically and is completely unsupported halakhicly, as well.

You're a very sick little man.

[Eli, what me messiah?]

I've said this before. I had no idea what MBP was, or that there was an option of a pipette, and I allowed this to be done to our oldest son. (pipette was used with subsequent sons, but due to fortuitous circumstances, not because we knew about the risks.)
NO WAY would we, or any responsible parents, have allowed this to happen had we been informed of the risk and the options. No way.

[No Light]

Oh look, Archie's back!

Sadly so is RedNeckJew, the liar and MRA, with his lies about rape

The 8% figure does not refer to false claims, but to cases where not enough evidence can be found to open a case for prosecution.

Roughly 2% of claims are categorised as false, but that also covers retractions, which inflates the figure. It's common for victims to retract due to police misconduct, pressure from friends and family, and threats from the rapist and his family and friends.

The other crappy pseudo-referential name-dropping you sprinkled on your steaming turd of a comment, refers to studies which have been debunked, or were so methodologically flawed that they wouldn't pass muster as a second-grade project.

As for your views on spousal rape, well it stands to reason that someone who thinks women are the property of their husbands would accuse them of lying about being raped.

Most women who are raped are victims of their own boyfriend, fiance or husband. It's also hugely (and distressingly) underreported, and a large source of unconfirmed and retracted allegations.

Oh , and BTW, only someone completely amoral would laugh in the face of someone molested as a child, and then accuse them of making things up. You're a backward, inbred, sociopathic bell-end. You're truly heinous. Another shining example of what the cult has to offer. A rape-denying, child abuse apologist, who's misogynist, cold-hearted, and so utterly convinced of his own superiority that he feels he has the right to taunt people about past traumas while mocking their writing skills.

Tell ya what - instead of picking on easy targets, why not stroll on down to your local evangelical megachurch, walk on up to the podium, and say "Howdy! I'm RedNeckJew. Do we have any survivors of rape or child sexual abuse in here today? Well I believe in sucking baby-cock. There's nothing wrong with that you see, it's normal, and so is my belief that y'all just imagined or lied about being raped, or abused as a child. It's fantasy".

I wonder how long you'd hang in there before you exsanguinated via your groin...

Now, have you got any other strawmen to derail the conversation about your cult's penchant for abusing 8 day old babies, or are you done? Fuckwit.

[Eli, what me messiah?]

“I myself have performed 25,000 circumcisions, and, thank God, we have not had one single incident … our guidelines are, I think, much stricter than the medical profession.”

Yeah, who hasn't heard this? The mohel is a specialist with multiple engagements per day, and therefore much safer than even a pediatrician would be. It's hugely misleading.

Informed consent now!

[Ra's Al Gahul]

You're the incoherent one.

There is no proof at all that vaccines cause harm or that CT scans normally used cause harm.

However, both vaccines and CT scans have saved hundreds of thousands of lives, if not more.

However, MBP does nothing good at all, but it does do bad things – like infect babies and even kill them.

Past that, to posit that giving a baby a treatment that is proven to save lives proves that treating babies doesn't require consent, and therefore MBP is perfectly okay to do is, quite frankly, insane. Your contention doesn't follow logically and is completely unsupported halakhicly, as well.

You're a very sick little man.

Posted by: Shmarya | July 25, 2012 at 12:21 AM

I have made no contention about the validity of mbp. I would argue that it should not be done.
Arguments based on lack of consent, however, do not hold up. Everything that is done for young children is done without their consent, with some carrying significant risk. People transport them in motor vehicles without their consent. The odds of an infant being injured or killed while in a minivan are probably higher than being injured or killed by mbp.

As for vaccines, they do cause serious injury in some cases, about a one in a millin chance (you can find that on the CDC website). Cases of death from vaccines are too rare to be statistically quantified. In the case of ct scans, any particular one does not usually cause immediately observable injury, but the effects of all radiation entering ones body, whether from ct scans, dental x rays, or muons from space, is cumulative over one's lifetime. There are many instances in which it is not clear whether particular ct scans are worth doing or not. In fact, the best current estimate is that between 1 and 2 percent of all cancers are actually caused by overuse of ct scans in the US.

I'd argue that we live in a secular society, and the gov't has the obligation to promote public health, and all laws, really, in an objective way that doesn't allow for mitigation by religion. The implication, aside from dealing in a significant way with mpb, would also be to not accept murder defense arguments from muslims based on their concept of "honor killing". American judges have allowed these arguments to be presented, although to the best of my knowledge, none has admitted to allowing these arguments to influence their decisions.

[jancsibacsi]

gahul--You would be better of if you kept youre stupid oppinions to youreself
The odds of an infant being injured or killed while in a minivan are probably higher than being injured or killed by mbp.
You imbacile a brit is done onece in a lifetime but ridind in a car is everyday or as long as a person lives sure the odds increase of being killed youre sick and getting sicker if thats possible.

[Eli, what me messiah?]

Everything that is done for young children is done without their consent, with some carrying significant risk.
Posted by: Ra's Al Gahul | July 25, 2012 at 07:06 AM

Informed consent is for the parents. But when you say thinks like this, is there really any point in demonstrating the fallacies in what you've written? Are you capable of realizing that the implication of what you say is that it is ok to intentionally expose infants to the risk of death or brain damage by MBP because their parents drive them in cars?

[Jeff]

Posted by: Ra's Al Gahul | July 25, 2012 at 07:06 AM

You aren't even spelling it correctly: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra%27s_al_Ghul

[WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar]

All frumma should be transported to Ted Kaczynski's old stomping grounds in Montana, where they can live without the dangers of modern medicine or cars, and are free to suck all the children's penises they want.

[WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar]

Jeff, if it's a reference from the 1970's, you know it's Bunker.

His contact with the outside world stopped in the 1970's, when he became a BT. You'll notice the pattern of 1970's references with him over the course of time.

[Eli, what me messiah?]

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar | July 25, 2012 at 07:52 AM

I could agree if you would substitute "goat's" for "children's"

[WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar]

Eli, LOL.

[Just the Facts]

If the NYC Dept. of Health ends up forcing all Mohels to get a signed consent form from the parents before doing MBP, the Charedei Mohels will be dancing in the streets. The form will release them from all liability if something goes wrong.

The consent form will become a badge of honor for Charedei parents to sign to show how frum they are and the Mesires Nefesh they went through to follow keep the Mesorah. There will be too much peer pressure to do anything but this.

I don’t have numbers to back this up, but these days most MO Mohels no longer do MBP. They use a pipette and therefore the Dept. of Health guidelines will not change anything in this community.

So in the end, the Charedim will win, the NYC Dept. of Health will have accomplished nothing but to protect the Mohels. Their actions will ensure that this practice never goes away and just the opposite, guarantee its survival.

[SMR]

25,000 brisses = 2 per day, every single day, for over 34 years.

Busy guy.

[Eli, what me messiah?]

25,000 brisses = 2 per day, every single day, for over 34 years.
Busy guy.
Posted by: SMR | July 25, 2012 at 09:40 AM

Would say not at all unusual if he works in the NYC metropolitan area. I remember trying to schedule a convenient time for guests but inevitably working around the mohels' other appointments same morning and afternoon, allowing for traffic so they could get to the next one on time. They never stayed long. They were all snip n' runs.

When you look at astronomical numbers like 25,000, you realize that just one infected mohel could be a real Typhoid Mary.

[Jeff]

These numbers just astonish me. I don't know if you'd get 25,000 mohel-performed brisses in the Boston area over the course of a decade.

[Eli, what me messiah?]

Jeff, some crude math from a non-statistician:
1.5M Jews in NY (2011 census)
30K births per year (used Israel avg of 20 per year instead of 14 for USA genreally)
15K boys
Assume not all will have brisses. Let's say only half (a conservative number).
7.5K total snippings in NYC per year.
If a single mohel averages 735 brisses per year (<10% of market), it would take him 34 years to reach a total of 25,000.
Not impossible.

[Ra's Al Gahul]

jancsibacsi,
if a person drives 10k miles in a year, the odds of getting killed are about 1 in 6000, much higher than of a kid dying from mbp, you dumb shithead.

[Eli, what me messiah?]

Posted by: Ra's Al Gahul | July 25, 2012 at 10:56 AM

Right, so give mohels a license to kill kids because of some other death or accident rate?

and you have the gall to call jancs dumb?

[Shmarya]

if a person drives 10k miles in a year, the odds of getting killed are about 1 in 6000, much higher than of a kid dying from mbp, you dumb shithead.

Posted by: Ra's Al Gahul | July 25, 2012 at 10:56 AM

Bad stats from a sick, evil, little mind.

If you remove people who drink or do drugs and drive while intoxicated and people who do not wear seat belts from your stats, the risk of dying in car accident is dramatically reduced.

If you don't drive in a SUV, the risk is reduced even more.

In other words, you could understand it this way:

x number of babies will die from a circumcision-related injury or infection this year.

But, if the circumcision is done by a well-trained professional, the risk of death drops significantly.

If MBP is not done, the risk of death or illness drops even more.

In the same way, driving in an SUV with a teenage driver who is listening to music and talking on a cell phone (or texting) and who is stoned dramatically raises your chance of death or injury.

Make the SUV a Ford Taurus and the risk drops.

Make the driver sober and the risk drops.

Make the driver not distracted and the risk drops.

Wearing your seat belt drops the risk even more.

You're arguing that it is wrong to make texting while driving, DUI, and not wearing a seat belt crimes.

Further, what you're really arguing is that taking your 8-day-old baby in an SUV being driven by a drunk, texting, teenage driver and not placing the baby in a properly used car seat should not be a crime and that this behavior should not be discouraged.

[Ra's Al Gahul]

Even adjusting for distracted driving, age, sobriety, and vehicle type, one is much more likely to be killed doing an average amount of driving in a year than a baby is from mbp.
I am not arguing for making distracted driving legal etc.
I am saying that we shouldn't make driving illegal. We don't even make it illegal for people of advanced age who are not fit to drive. There are high risk activities that society accepts.
Let the health department ban mbp. You then get into some interesting questions about what their bounds are.

[Jeff]

If a single mohel averages 735 brisses per year (

It's very different here. If your figures are correct, Jews account for 16% of the total NYC population. Boston has a Jewish population of between 208,000 and 260,000, out of a population of 4.6 million (figuring the entire metropolitan area) - less than 5%.

Plus, as I keep saying, Boston has never been a particularly Jewish town to begin with. We didn't even have any Jews in appreciable numbers until the waves of mass immigration began in the late 19th century. By contrast, some of the Southern cities, which we don't think of as being home to significant Jewish populations, have had Jewish communities since the late 18th/early 19th centuries.

Wikipedia lists Boston as one of eight "Significant Jewish population centers" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Jews#Significant_Jewish_population_centers) - but I think that merely attests to how small a minority we really are.

[jancsibacsi]

Ra's Al Gahul-YOU ARE BEYOND THE PALE AS I WROTE TO YOU BEFORE, GO AND GET KILLED YOU DONT DESRVE TO LIVE IN THIS WORLD,YOURE PURE EVIL,YOURE ONLY HERE FOR THE SAKE OF STIRRING UP THE CRAP TO MAKE EVERYTHING STINK TO HIGH HEAVENS YOU ANIMAL.

[Ra's Al Gahul]

jancsibacsi,
You ought to seek some professional help. There are many fine psychiatrists out there. Or maybe the problem is they let you out of your straight jacket today.

[Eli, what me messiah?]

Jeff, fair points. My stat on NYC was Wikipedia relying on 2011 census.

Ra's Al Gahul, your problem is that jancs is on the right side of the argument (and makes sense). Your fault, not his.

[Another]

Somewhere else on this blog (can't find it now), it was mentioned that a certain protocol had existed, which, if followed, allowed MBP, but that the protocol has been rescinded. What was that protocol?

Also, what is the position of the medical authorities with regard to MBP via a sterile glass tube? (i.e. mouth is used for suction, but at one end of a tube whose other end is placed tightly over the wound.) Is that considered safe?

[No Light]

Archie - you're a very damaged individual. Clearly some very bad things have happened to you, in order to warp and sicken you so badly.

The bad things that happened to you were not your fault, but lashing out on everyone else isn't going to do anything except make you more isolated and bitter

You need serious professional help. You're not going to get that here, a place that you apparently hate, but are obsessed with.

Your compulsions and obsessions can be managed, and treated, to improve your life.

Only you can take that first step though.

[Shmarya]

ven adjusting for distracted driving, age, sobriety, and vehicle type, one is much more likely to be killed doing an average amount of driving in a year than a baby is from mbp.
I am not arguing for making distracted driving legal etc.
I am saying that we shouldn't make driving illegal. We don't even make it illegal for people of advanced age who are not fit to drive. There are high risk activities that society accepts.
Let the health department ban mbp. You then get into some interesting questions about what their bounds are.

Posted by: Ra's Al Gahul | July 25, 2012 at 11:41 AM

No, we don't allow "people of advanced age who are not fit to drive" to drive. In most localities, when a driver is not fit to drive, his license is revoked.

Past that, you garble the stats to make your point.

As I noted, if your remove texting while driving, DUI, etc., from the equation, a driver or passenger is very unlikely to die in a car accident.

In other words, a person correctly operating a safe motor vehicle within the speed limit, not texting or talking on the phone, not drunk or stoned, not speeding (and not 16 or 17 years old), not driving on icy roads or in a snow storm or heavy rain storm, wearing a proper seat belt, etc., is very unlikely to die in a car accident.

Following the law – which is based on hard stats and good science – helps protect them from risks others unnecessarily face.

In the same way, parents who do not allow MBP to be done on their children dramatically reduce those children's risk of being sickened, maimed or killed during a bris.

That you are too ignorant and too biased to grasp this simple fact is sad.

[Ra's Al Gahul]

Following the law, sobriety, etc.... does help. But the odds of dying while driving remain much higher than people think.
I set auto liability insurance rates for a personal auto carrier, I am quite familiar with the numbers.
As usual, you are full of shit.

[Hometown Postville]

"Children subjected to pedophelia right from birth...."
Posted by: God is not amused | July 24, 2012 at 11:12 AM
Anyone who tries to justify this practice is warped and thank you "God is not amused" for pointing this out.

[rose bush]

I do not know how anyone can suck anyone else's blood. The idea itself just makes me want to vomit.

[rose bush]

Again, I noticed a pro circumcision writer calling an anti circumcision writer a fascist who should either join the Nazi party or become a Hindu. The pro circumcision writer is a bigot himself because he implies that anyone disagreeing with him is a Basically and he is also making fun of Hindus.

[Grossed Out Gentile]

The fact that this perverted procedure is being discussed as legitimate and as anything other than institutional child molestation is disgusting.

The baby dick suckers should all be convicted and sent to jail for the rest of their lives. The parents should have the children taken from them and the rest should pray for forgiveness.

At least the pervert Catholic priests do not try to justify their pedophilia, they just go to foreign countries to escape prosecution. These freaks actually try to justify their actions...you sick mothers.

"Children subjected to pedophelia right from birth...."
Posted by: God is not amused | July 24, 2012 at 11:12 AM
Anyone who tries to justify this practice is warped and thank you "God is not amused" for pointing this out.