Haredim Say They Don’t Have To Worry About The Draft – “We Won’t Be Dragged Into The Army,” A Yeshiva Student Said

"Everyone knows that forcibly recruiting haredim is not possible. I'm not going to lie – we are thinking of what the future may hold – but we believe the Torah protects the people of Israel, us included. I'm certain that if you interview me at this time next year, we will still be studying. I’m not changing any of my plans.…People like to accuse the haredim of mocking the seculars and soldiers, but we respect them. After all, they protect us. But our studies also have value. It all stems from ignorance and hatred for the ultra-Orthodox."

Haredim Say They Don’t Have To Worry About The Draft
“We won’t be dragged into the army,” one yeshiva student said.
Shmarya Rosenberg • FailedMessiah.com

The Tal Law, which allows Israel’s haredim to evade the military draft and which was ruled unconstitutional in February by Israel’s High Court of Justice, expires Wednesday.

Even so, haredim don’t believe they will be drafted or, if they are, that they will be forced to actually serve in the Israel’s Defense Forces.   

"Past experience has taught us that even when the Tal Law expires on August 1, we won't be dragged into the army," a haredi yeshiva student told Ynet yesterday.

"Everyone knows that forcibly recruiting haredim is not possible," Elad resident Yitzhak Burstein, who studies at a yeshiva in Bnei Brak, told Ynet. "I'm not going to lie – we are thinking of what the future may hold – but we believe the Torah protects the people of Israel, us included. I'm certain that if you interview me at this time next year, we will still be studying. I’m not changing any of my plans.…People like to accuse the haredim of mocking the seculars and soldiers, but we respect them. After all, they protect us. But our studies also have value. It all stems from ignorance and hatred for the ultra-Orthodox."

"We would rather go to prison [than serve in the IDF],” another hared man told Ynet. “When they threatened the parents in Emanuel [over illegal ethnic segregation in state-funded haredi schools] with jail time they thought it would break their spirits, but it didn’t help. This whole debate has an anti-Semitic feel to it. If you really want to integrate us into society, stop disparaging us and making up stories that taint our image. We are Jews who study the Torah. This has been revered throughout the generations; only in the State of Israel it is not appreciated."

A 22-year-old married haredi man mocked the proposed haredi draft. “Can you picture any [haredim] training for the army? They want us to enlist but they are not setting up any special units for us. How will I go to the army now with two children at home? Who will benefit from it? Even if haredim are eventually recruited, the authorities will quickly find that it is costing the state more, so I'm not concerned. The Plesner Committee [formed to draft a replacement for the Tal Law that would pass constitutional muster] failed, and so will the others. It's all in the hands of God."

The Plesner Committee was disbanded by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu hours before it was to issue findings that called for a universal draft and for civil and criminal penalties – including financial penalties – for draft dodgers.

Netanyahu, who depends on haredi political parties for the support that keeps his ruling coalition government in power, then formed another committee, this one co-headed by Plesner, who is a member of the Kadima political party, and by Moshe Ya’alon, a former IDF chief-of-staff who is a Likud Party member and a Netanyahu crony.

Netanyhu told the new committee just before it was to release its compromise findings that he would reject almost all of them, and that he wanted all haredi yeshiva students to be automatically exempt from IDF service until they reach the age of 26. Because the vast majority of haredim are married and have several children by that age, haredim drafted at that age would be unlikely to see combat. They would also be paid significantly more money than secular and Zionist Orthodox soldiers and would have to receive other benefits that would, in effect, turn their ‘army service’ into paid, full time yeshiva study.

Plesner resigned as a result of Netanyahu’s interference and issued a statement blasting Netanyahu for selling out to haredim.

Ya’alon then released his own findings which called for haredim to be drafted at age 26 (or later) into special haredi battalions in which they would study Torah for at least 45 hours per week while being paid by the state.

Comments

[jancsibacsi]

Of course toireh protects, not the country but those self serving holier then thou shoites who think the universe revolves around them,they just have to sit on their behinds and everyone serving them like slaves,they cant fool others anymore so they are threatening violence .

[yuk]

What does having 2 kids have to do with joining the army? When the toyrah tells us about those who fought in the army they were talking about fathers with kids too.
besides we all know that the reason why they want to be exempt has all to do with the concept of im charedi and and im in a holier league then any other denomination.

[Dave]

If Netanyahu were the CEO of a public company, he would be voted out by the board after the 1st year, on the grounds of sabotaging the firm.
What does everyone think of that?

[AztecQueen2000]

Plenty of men (and women) with children serve in the military. Anyone who dodges the draft on the grounds that he'd rather read books and let warts grow on his rear end should lose all financial stipends and the right to vote.

[Garnel Ironheart]

Let's look at it from a different perspective.
Israel's secular education system is ranked last when compared to the EU's various members. But they want the Chareidim to institute their curriculum.
Draft dodging is endemic in secular society. Ehud Olmert's kids fled the country rather than serve and Bar Rafaeli made a big public point about hating army service. But the Chareidim are supposed to happily march off to the nearest recruitment centre?

[JK2]

If they want their welfare checks to continue - yes.

[Dave]

Garnel, you have a point.
But, what is so anti-Torah about math, physics and chemistry and computer science and accounting? O.k., the haredim don't have to learn evolution or history if they don't want to. But what about the other subjects that I've mentioned- what about them?

[Alter Kocker]

Refuse to do army service...no more welfare and a stint in prison at hard labor. PS and your kids? How about wards of the state.

These backward residents of fairyland will just have to grow up and forget the tall tales from their gedolim, in fact if the gedolim continue to preach avoidance of service, maybe they should be jailed as well. Frankly, the country needs to shake up this cult. Israel is a country surrounded by enemies. A military is required to defend against these enemies. Countering arguments that "Torah Learning" defends against the enemies simply does not cut it. When Iran attacks with missiles and tanks, do these idiots think a Chassid holding a toyreh scroll will be able to fight them all with one parshah tied behind his back?

[jancsibacsi]

Alter Kocker-Well written,they actually think that they are the characters in x-men :)able to stop a bullet in mid air or a rocket for that matter

[128 Sherman]

Did Shmarya's grandpa Leon serve in WWI or did he dodge while already bootlegging, extorting & murdering?

Yes it's all relevant when Shmarya goes digging for dirt on rabbinic leaders who aren't alive to defend themselves.

It's also telling that Shmarya is one of the only people who defends Nazi colloborator Kasztner against mountains of evidence against him.

[MarkfromShortHills]

128 Sherman, people are sick of the crap you and your frumster cohorts are spewing. You are irrelevant and you know it.

[jancsibacsi]

128 Sherman-Youre rehashing old nonsense about shmarya granpa only show youre mindless moronic insane hate and grasping onto absolutely irrelevant meshugas, and about natzi colloborators easy to talk about not so easy to live through you dont make sense go get help the sooner the better.

[Jeff]

Posted by: 128 Sherman | July 27, 2012 at 03:50 PM

Archie, it doesn't even matter at this point whether or not you're right (you aren't). You have an obsession with Shmarya and this site. You need professional help.

[john]

In the torah it says that all men from ages 20 to 60 served in the army besides the levies where they were designated to sit down and study torah these are the levies of our times and don't forget a little bit of light can displace slot of darkness.

[AztecQueen2000]

John--Weren't the Levites the smallest tribe? About 1/10 the size of the others?

[Jill]

5 days to go till we see who is right!

[A. Nuran]

Garnel, Israel's education system ranked way the hell down there when Arab and some of the Charedim were included. Leaving those out it did a fair bit better. But even if it is as lousy as advertised it is light years ahead of Charedi "education".

[Apostate]

I wonder how much it would cost to get the guy doing the Groucho Marx walk in the picture cleaned up, trained and fit for duty.

[God is not amused]

This is the type of arrogance that gentiles here in NYS see from the Haredi as their population is no longer hard to miss, they are like locust, everywhere. That attitude coupled with the forced "financial support" of these parasites is what causes hatred towards the ultra-orthodox. It has nothing to do with their "semite race."

1) KICK THEM OF THE DOLE.

2) ARREST THEM FOR DRAFT DODGING.

Take their children so they can be socialized properly, instead of being turned into bottomless pits of society.
THAT will stop them from breeding.

The politicians in the US and in Israel ENABLE these people to exist and maintain their NON-PRODUCTIVE, destructive ways in society by allowing them to abuse the "charity/welfare" system.

[God is not amused]

John/these people are so dodgy, we are assuming that they are Levites. I am assuming that they are a lot closer to Khazars.

[Lo K'darkah]

Apologies for the length of this:

Those who are familiar (and it matters little if you’re not) with the sorts of things I usually say in posts on FM, know that I am certainly not a fan of the whole alm’a d’malbishei schoirim (“the world of those who wear black”) and the sooner we transform the so-called ‘charedi world’ and bring our brothers and sisters back to Judaism, the better. But I really, really, disagree with most of the comments on this particular issue. And since it’s Tisha B’Av, I will allow myself the indulgence of a proper and courteous analysis of why I believe it is wrong to force them (or anybody) into an army – and I will be as brief as possible.

A summary of the current populist moral line on this issue seems to be (just so you know that I think I understand the argument): “you live in a state from whose citizenship and infrastructure you benefit when it suits you. That state has obligations upon its citizens as well as privileges. Defending the state is an unwelcome but necessary sacrifice in time and energy of critical importance, and can only be effective if spread equally: both in terms of the numbers required to defend the state and in terms of the moral ‘load.’ For decades now, an entire sector of the Israeli public has not done army service; it’s time to change that. The claim of this sector, that it is ensuring the protection of the state by spiritual pursuits, is disingenuous.”

Some of that I agree with; and on the surface it looks very reasonable. But here’s my problem:

The one thing that is not being spoken about here is the whole question of WHY there still is mandatory military service in Israel. And before you throw your hands up and shout “another naïve idiot!” - even if we accept the picture – which by the way, I don’t – that Israel is surrounded by implacable evil foes hell bent on its destruction, what is being done so that, in the future, mandatory military service may no longer be necessary? The picture of good and evil, black and white, Jew and Muslim is painted so starkly in the world view of so many Jews and Muslims, that it simply becomes an accepted axiom. Yet, surely, the real protection of the State of Israel will come from its efforts to make peace, not by arming a whole sector of its society that doesn’t want to fight.

That sector, by the way, is not a sector filled with peace-loving hippies or those who respect gentiles as created in the image of God. Yet everybody wants to put guns in their hands. Actually, we should be proud of their unwillingness to take up arms. What a blessing it would be if all the religious fanatics in all countries were the very ones who did not want to fight. (The National Religious in Israel have created an entire discourse based upon the melding of kipah v’roveh and look where that has got us.)

You can’t have it both ways. You can’t, on the one hand, talk about how terrible Israel’s attitude is towards non-violent Palestinians, or how brutal and racist the occupation is, and with the other hand want to put charedim in the mix, and subject them to the uber-guidance of politicians like those of this generation. The whole question creates a disconnect when I see the same demonstrators that protested on the streets against Operation Cast Lead, protesting the social injustice of the Tal Law.

But even if you are a judeo-fascist and you want to spit at the screen as you read this and say: Oh, another bleeding heart arab-loving liberal; then think about this: Every sane person in the world knows that, barring a Divine intervention (that we cannot rely upon), the only sensible and eventual solution to the Middle East conflict is a two-state solution. What else is there? When you rule out genocide, transference, or forced Israeli citizenship (which is perceived to have potential demographic problems), what else is there except either two states for two peoples, or the status quo? Do you like the status quo? Does it make you feel like you live in a nice world?

Modern warfare is increasingly not about numbers on the ground, and more about overall technological superiority, better surveillance and response systems and faster C3I, and mechanisation (increasing use of drones and other unmanned craft). So the question of: who will defend the state when the Charedim are the majority? - is a misnomer. And on that very topic, do you really want to see Charedim rising through the ranks of the IDF proportionate with their rising demographic until they actually control the army (as well as government, and as well as public service)?

We want the Charedim – or whatever they call themselves – to be better educated and productive citizens, so let’s get into their education systems and weed out the nonsense; send people to jail for not providing basic education and sanitation for children. But why, oh why, are you so keen to give Jewish children an education in weaponry and in violence, when you haven’t actually thought about what that means in the physical universe, and what other options might exist?

Learning Torah and praying do not seem to always stop bullets. But an investment in the heritage of Israel is priceless, and purpose is a type of protection. If we fight, what are we fighting for? The charedi world is an impure vessel, but it is carrying, more than any other sector, the spiritual resources of Israel – it’s raison d’etre – into the future (who else is studying and publishing the texts? Progressive Judaism? The Jewish Agency? Hollywood?) We should be celebrating our hundreds of thousands of batlanim; and not only would I keep the exemption for talmidei yeshivah, but I would grant every person who wanted to study any aspect of the humanities a deferral on military service. I want a gentler Israel.

But you still want the burden shared? There are other ways. The real contribution of the Torah world (and of the world of the intellect generally) should be (and could be) in building bridges and creating peace (marbim shalom ba’olam). But here we are dealing with a society that seems not to care what sort of world they live in. Where is the cross-cultural dialogue between the spiritual leaders of Judaism and Islam that would begin to defuse long-term tensions (I mean real dialogue, from learning and dugma - not some 18th century penguins going to Teheran to play footsies with Haman)? Where is the mutual respect that will lead to a better world? If we have reached that level of detente with the Catholic Church, then Islam should be a piece of cake. So what are our Mullah-Gedoilim afraid of? God not big enough for you dudes? The opposite: He’s too big…

[Rocky]

Secular, educated Jews in Israel will gradually vote with their feet. They will move. Israel will increasingly become a land of the old, the poor, the sick and the religious. Given current trends, the long term prognosis for Israel is not good.

[Jeff]

(who else is studying and publishing the texts? Progressive Judaism? The Jewish Agency? Hollywood?)

LK, you had me up until this point. As I keep saying, the Haredi world is self-destructing, and when they go, they'll be taking most of Orthodoxy with them. The future of Judaism - whether or not anyone likes it - lies with the liberal denominations and the handful of Left Wing MO.

The real contribution of the Torah world (and of the world of the intellect generally) should be (and could be) in building bridges and creating peace (marbim shalom ba’olam).

You know they have no interest in this. They haven't even any interest in learning the skills.

I agree with the rest of what you say, but it would be a lot easier to cheerfully grant them an exemption if they were willing to partner with the government in developing other ways in which they could contribute, instead of brandishing that collective self-satisfied smirk, and saying, "We aren't worried; they'll never draft us!", which is probably true, because they know neither Netanyahu nor any other Israeli politician has any goddamn balls.

They have the secular public over a proverbial barrel. I think inducting a few of them and forcing them to conform, even at the expense of compromising some of their beliefs, would show them the government and secular public mean business. It would, so to speak, put the fear of God in them. Once they understand the free ride is over and are willing to compromise, then other solutions can be found.

[Lo K'darkah]

LK, you had me up until this point. As I keep saying, the Haredi world is self-destructing, and when they go, they'll be taking most of Orthodoxy with them. The future of Judaism - whether or not anyone likes it - lies with the liberal denominations and the handful of Left Wing MO.
Posted by: Jeff | July 28, 2012 at 04:37 PM

Yes, Jeff, a good point, and a fair prediction, in the long term. I suppose I was just talking about carrying the seeds of self-transformation that even the future of these denominations will require for their eventual reinvention.

[ah-pee-chorus]

Lo K'darkah -

id like to offer the perspective of a non-believer.

The claim of this sector, that it is ensuring the protection of the state by spiritual pursuits, is disingenuous

not only is it disingenuous in that they themselves dont believe it, but its also preposterous from an empirical standpoint.

even if we accept the picture – which by the way, I don’t – that Israel is surrounded by implacable evil foes hell bent on its destruction

the koran and hadiths require that any land EVER under islamic rule must be ALWAYS under islamic control. if its lost in a war, it MUST be recaptured. the majority of muslims are similar to charedim in their fundamentalist approach to the holy koran. this is non-negotiable. so which part of that leaves you in doubt as to the their muslim neighbors desire?

Yet, surely, the real protection of the State of Israel will come from its efforts to make peace, not by arming a whole sector of its society that doesn’t want to fight.

not only do i disagree but the trend is heading into an even worse reality. the only peace israel has been able to make was with 2 countries who had 2 things in common. joradan and egypt were both ruled by dictators/king. this enabled them to go against the opinion of the majority within their countries. the peace was able to be enacted because the regimes prevented islamists from foiling these agreements and even led to the death of one of those peacemakers, sadat. this is a lesson certainly not forgotten by the arab leaders. further, israel had something egypt wanted, sinai. the palestinian issue is not the reason for their relationship with the arabs, its a smokescreen. while id like to see a 2 state solution achieved, i see no reason for hope. muslims will NEVER let israel have true peace. it violates the word of allah.
the 'arab spring' movement is another obstacle. the era of dictators is ending. in arabia this hasnt led to LESS islamicism, it has led to MORE.

Learning Torah and praying do not seem to always stop bullets

they never stop bullets.

The charedi world is an impure vessel, but it is carrying, more than any other sector, the spiritual resources of Israel – it’s raison d’etre – into the future

if israel has a "spiritual resource" it has nothing to do with torah or learning. the spirit of most of those who envisioned the country as well as most of those who settled and built the country, and who fought in its early wars was a spirit of yearning for a land in which jews could be safe. it was a group who understood that goals and even dreams are achieved by TAKING ACTION. not by praying or learning. everything about israels history, success and future is reliant upon those who continue TO DO. those who sit in batei medrash are staining the very spirit of the country.
and israels raison d'etre has little to do with books. it was and is a place where jews can live freely and unafraid of having someone elses religion imposed on them. it has NOTHING to do with being a torah theocracy. you pin your hopes at ensuring the fulfillment of israels raison d'etre on charedim??? these are the people who spit on priests and little jewish girls for not being jewish 'enough'. they stone drivers on shabbos for the same reason. they deface shuls and factories for daring to be open on shabbos. and on and on.
charedim not only dont embody israels reason to exist, they represent the antithesis of it. they would like to see israel and israelis adhere to THEIR version of gods demands. they deny other jews the right to live as they please.

Where is the cross-cultural dialogue between the spiritual leaders of Judaism and Islam that would begin to defuse long-term tensions

its pointless. on the jewish side, unless the leaders were non-ortho, there would be no right to compromise on any issue that contravenes their understanding of halacha. and if the leader is non-ortho, then there no benefit in furthering extremism in judaism. and that speaks towards removing all incentives for yeshivas, and requiring army service which not only is fair, but also serves to moderate an isolated groups extremism. win-win.

and on the muslim side, as discussed above, only people willing to violate the koranic requirement would be willing to acknowledge isarels right to exist and have peace as a jewish country. and these voices are stifled by fear and murder. whats left are leaders who openly demand israels end, and those who pretend otherwise until they speak to the masses.

in summation, israel will never know peace until islam undergoes an enlightenment and israel is willing to control its own messianic lunatic settler movement. and neither of these is foreseeable. therefore israel needs EVERY single soldier it desires, whether they like it or not. she cant afford to go to an all volunteer army. thats fantasy. and when most boys would rather be doing something else, you cant allow an entire group to be exempted without threatening the loyalty of all.

[David]

a little bit of light can displace slot of darkness.

Posted by: john | July 27, 2012 at 05:14 PM

Not when the light is from an oncoming freight train (Charedim) and you are in a tunnel (Israel)....

[Jill]

We are now down to three days to see who was right.

[hilton]

to markfromshorthills. YOU DONT GET IT AT ALL. the FRUMSTERS think the "'OTHERS" meaning not hardcore hardei jews are second class. Hardei beleive they are above all the rest of us. If it becomes so bad like rubashkin,child paedophiles crooked rabbis etc etc and they go to prison for their deeds. ,then they see the hand of GOD in what is happening to them.We will never be rid of these pompous arrogant smelly sects.they turn the meaning of holy upside down but cannot see what they have done.Which jew sitting in prison ever displays remorse except to probably suck up to aleph tto get better conditions for themselves.HAREDI when caught out are always victims and never the perpetrator.

[jancsibacsi]

hilton-You are describing them perfectly every word you wrote is true they are very very arrogant i am with you all the way.

[D]

Jancsibacsi,
I've read a few of your recent posts, and you sound like you speak from personal experience. Do you have a story you'd like to share?

[jancsibacsi]

D-Yes an example i live in a hassidishe neighborhood and when i pass their synagougue since i have no beard the kids strat making fun of us shaved saying di bist oih a yid,meaning you are also jewish looking down onothers who dont have beards or dressedlike them theese are kids and they alreay know this hate or demeaning others jews not like them.

[D]

Jancsibacsi, I'm sure that's unpleasant, and surely doesn't reflect well on the community. But do you have anything more concrete, like something from adult behavior?

[jancsibacsi]

D-Yes i see you are not satisfied with my answer,well the kids behaviour reflects their parents behaviour many times adults themselfs act i a very rude manner example not answering back when i say good shabbas to them of course there are many many fine hassidim but dont forget hassidim hold themselfs to be in a highter midos good behaviour and alot of them dont abide by that good behaviour.

[D]

Jancsibacsi, thank you for your response. A word about children's behavior: I am a HS teacher, and I once mentioned to a counsellor how shocked I was at some of the kids' behavior. The response was
as follows: mental health professionals used to say that kids have "tunnel" vision; they do what they want to without thinking through the broader ramifications of their actions. Nowadays, they will say that the decision-making area of the brain is not fully developed until age 20 or so, and kids do not filter their actions through the full spectrum of the range of the possible consequences. Case in point: this counsellor described how a 14yr old student was alone in the gym one day and began playing on a piano in the corner. The child then got up and sat on top of the piano, with legs dangling over the keys, and began banging the keys with her feet. Still not satisfied, she then stood up and actually walked across the keys, at which point the principal walks in and, in utter shock, says, "what in Heaven are you doing?!" (this is why I say that kids is not hard proof. I personally remember a kid who exhibited much worse behavior as a child, a true "vilde chaya", who grew up to be the sweetest lemel you've ever seen.)
As far as the adults, let me quote two quotes from the Satmar Rebbe zt"l: "oib nit l'kaf z'chus, zol zein l'kaf shtus". In other words, "foolishness is much more common than maliciousness." It may be that they don't have the social graces to know how to respond to you; it may just be that they aren't trying to insult you.
...and here's that other quote: there was once a Yid w/o a beard speaking with the SR. A chasid was upset that the SR was being mechabed this Yid, and he said to the SR, "er hut nisht kein bord!" So the Rav answers: "you're right! When he comes up to Shomayim they will say, 'Yid, Yid! Vu is dein bord?!' But when you come up to Shomayim, they will say, "bord, bord! Vu is dein Yid?!' "

[jancsibacsi]

D-Very nicely written answer, i was raised until the gae of 11 hassidish since i come from eurpoe a town near satmar i live if you google my name you will see what i wrote here for the past 2 yearsi do have anger towards the hassidim but i like many of them also i am like split you will see why i am the way i am.

[Jeff]

Nowadays, they will say that the decision-making area of the brain is not fully developed until age 20 or so, and kids do not filter their actions through the full spectrum of the range of the possible consequences.

That's all well and good, but meanwhile, this matter of Haredi children denigrating and ridiculing non-Orthodox Jews is ubiquitous and has been going on for a long time. I've read numerous accounts of it, but I haven't read one account of a Haredi parent apologizing to the frei yid for the actions of the child. Not one.

They're learning it from the parents, either indirectly or (as I suspect is far more often the case) directly.

[D]

Jeff,
All in all, Jancsibacsi's scuttling an entire community based on this flimsy stuff is absurd, to say the least.

[jancsibacsi]

D-ARE YOU BLIND DIDNT YOU SEE ME WRITING THAT THERE ARE MANY GOOD HASSIDIM ARE YOU THAT VICIOUS?

[Jeff]

Moreover, nor did he address my point.

[D]

Jancsibacsi, please calm down, I mean no harm. I am not trying to be vicious. Your post seemed vicious: 
"We will never be rid of these pompous arrogant smelly sects.they turn the meaning of holy upside down but cannot see what they have done.Which jew sitting in prison ever displays remorse except to probably suck up to aleph tto get better conditions for themselves.HAREDI when caught out are always victims and never the perpetrator.
07/29/2012 09:18
hilton
hilton-You are describing them perfectly every word you wrote is true they are very very arrogant i am with you all the way.
07/29/2012 09:28
jancsibacsi"...and I believe there were other recent posts that sounded like this; so I thought, boy, this guy must really have it in for them!
...and then you can only produce flimsy, nonconclusive stuff!

[D]

...and how's about this: "Of course toireh protects, not the country but those self serving holier then thou shoites who think the universe revolves around them,they just have to sit on their behinds and everyone serving them like slaves,they cant fool others anymore so they are threatening violence .
07/27/2012 11:34
jancsibacsi"
Not such pareve stuff, eh, Jancsibacsi?

Jeff, i've been called "Kike" by MO kids. It's a micro issue. I'm more focused on the macro.

[Jeff]

Jeff, i've been called "Kike" by MO kids.

If that's true. it's an isolated phenomenon. I've never heard of that happening.

It's a micro issue. I'm more focused on the macro.

It's indicative of more pervasive underlying issues.

[jancsibacsi]

D-i am not going into detail but i know of at least a dozev hassidim my neighbors who are working reporting minimum wages and get sec.8 food stamps so in reality they make over 100 thousand a year there are 10 s of thousands of similar characters so it isnt just macro of course these are recent postings of mine go back months

[jancsibacsi]

D-sneaky halerye you are you come here ingratiating yourself to me then you attack me
you think i dont see youre method youre are a vengefull person come here and talk to me after you are molested by one theese hassidim as i was at he age of 10 then you will know what i am talking about .

[D]

Jeff, it was prevalent enough for my Shabbos host to warn me what to expect when passing through that neighborhood. As far as your claim that the reverse is indicative, that's your hypothesis. Let's try to stick to actual cases.

[Jeff]

I was going to let you have the last word, but I can't let it go. I'm sorry, but I simply don't believe that MO kids are denigrating Haredim (or whichever group to which you belong) on a widespread basis. Conversely, we know for a fact that Haredi kids denigrate non-Orthodox Jews all the time. That's my position and I'm sticking to it.

Now you can have the last word.

[D]

Jancsibacsi, I'm really sorry to hear about your unspeakably painful maisa. I'm truly sorry; I simply had no idea. I had asked you what was behind your upset w/Hasidim; you initially told me some very light-duty stuff - I imagine you wanted to avoid the painful, real story. Please accept my Bracha that you should only know simcha and Bracha and Gezunt and nachas in your life, and Hashem should grant you no more pain. Zeit moichel!

[jancsibacsi]

D-Thank you for youre kind words you are truly a mentch.

[D]

Jeff, it's not about who has the first or last word. I'm trying to dialogue with you, not have an argument. What kids do is largely irrelevant (and you also are painting with a broad brush. There are many sectors of the Haredi world. In the non-Hasidic, you don't hear of this). What is relevant is that I believe that much more can be accomplished with words of love than with words of hate. If
you seriously want things to change, they can. But with honey, not with venom. There's enough good out there to be able to sincerely extend a torch of love. Nobody is going to respond to anything else; it's simply human nature.

[Jill]

T minus two days to see who is right!

[Jill]

Tomorrow is the big day to see who is right. I can hardly wait!

[D]

Jill, what are you talking about?

[Yogev]

27% of Israel's 1st grade students are religious. One day they will be a majority. Who will defend them then? They won't serve in the army. Torah won't protect them. It didn't protect bucharim and gadolim in Poland in 1939. They refuse to join the army. What will they do when they must depend on themselves!