Stunning Discovery Of So-Called 'God Particle' May Explain Creation

The just discovered Higgs boson, nicknamed the God particle, explains an element of physics that has been elusive for decades – why all matter has mass. It could also help explain how the universe really began.

Higgs Boson: Discovery Could Explain How Universe Began

(AP) – It’s being called the “missing cornerstone of physics.”

The Higgs boson, nicknamed the God particle, explains an element of physics that has been elusive for decades – why all matter has mass. It could also help explain how the universe began.

First proposed as a theory in the 1960s, the maddeningly elusive Higgs had been hunted by at least two generations of physicists who believed it would help shape our understanding of how the universe’s most elemental pieces fit together.

As the highly technical findings were announced by two independent teams involving more than 5,000 researchers, the usually sedate corridors of the European Center for Nuclear Research, or CERN, erupted in frequent applause and standing ovations. Physicists who spent their careers in pursuit of the particle shed tears.

The new particle appears to share many of the same qualities as the one predicted by Scottish physicist Peter Higgs and others and is perhaps the biggest accomplishment at CERN since its founding in 1954 outside Geneva along the Swiss-French border.

Rolf Heuer, director of CERN, said the newly discovered particle is a boson, but he stopped just shy of claiming outright that it is the Higgs boson itself — an extremely fine distinction.

"As a layman, I think we did it," he told the elated crowd. "We have a discovery. We have observed a new particle that is consistent with a Higgs boson."

The Higgs, which until now had been purely theoretical, is regarded as key to understanding why matter has mass, which combines with gravity to give all objects weight.

The idea is much like gravity and Isaac Newton's early theories. Gravity was there all the time before Newton explained it. The Higgs boson was believed to be there, too. And now that scientists have actually seen something much like it, they can put that knowledge to further use.

The center's atom smasher, the $10 billion Large Hadron Collider, sends protons whizzing around a circular 27-kilometer (17-mile) underground tunnel at nearly the speed of light to create high-energy collisions. The aftermath of those impacts can offer clues about dark matter, antimatter and the creation of the universe, which many theorize occurred in a massive explosion known as the Big Bang.

Most of the particles that result from the collisions exist for only the smallest fractions of a second. But finding a Higgs-like boson was one of the biggest challenges in physics: Out of some 500 trillion collisions, just several dozen produced "events" with significant data, said Joe Incandela of the University of California at Santa Barbara, leader of the team known as CMS, with 2,100 scientists.

Each of the teams confirmed Wednesday that they had "observed" a new subatomic particle — a boson. Heuer said the discovery was "most probably a Higgs boson, but we have to find out what kind of Higgs boson it is." He referred to the discovery as a missing cornerstone of science.

As the leaders of the two teams presented their evidence, applause punctuated their talks.

"Thanks, nature!" joked Fabiola Gianotti, the Italian physicist who heads the team called ATLAS, with 3,000 scientists, drawing laughter from the crowd.

Later, she told reporters that the standard model of physics is still incomplete because "the dream is to find an ultimate theory that explains everything. We are far from that."

Incandela said it was too soon to say definitively whether the particle was exactly the same as envisioned by Higgs and others, who proposed the existence of an energy field where all particles interact with a key particle, the Higgs boson.

Higgs, who was invited to be in the audience, said Wednesday's discovery appears to be close to what he predicted.

"It is an incredible thing that it has happened in my lifetime," he said, calling the discovery a huge achievement for the proton-smashing collider.

Outside CERN, the announcement seemed to ricochet around the world with some of the speed and energy of the particle itself.

In an interview with the BBC, the world's most famous physicist, Stephen Hawking, said Higgs deserved the Nobel Prize. Hawking said he had placed a wager with another scientist that the Higgs boson would never be found.

"It seems I have just lost $100," he said.

Marc Sher, a professor of physics at William & Mary College, said most observers concluded in December that the Higgs boson would soon be discovered, but he was "still somewhat stunned by the results."

The phrase "God particle" was coined by Nobel Prize-winning physicist Leon Lederman, but it's used mostly by laymen as an easier way of explaining the theory.

Wednesday's celebration was mainly for researchers who explore the deepest, most esoteric levels of particle science. But the particle-hunting effort has paid off in other ways for non-scientists, including contributing to the development of the World Wide Web.

CERN scientists used the early Web to exchange information, and the vast computing power needed to crunch all of the data produced by the atom smasher also boosted development of cloud computing, which is now making its way into mainstream services.

Advances in solar energy, medical imaging and proton therapy used in the fight against cancer have also resulted from the work of particle physicists at CERN and elsewhere.

The last undiscovered piece of the standard model of physics could be a variant of the Higgs that was predicted or something else that entirely changes the way scientists think about how matter is formed, Incandela said.

"This boson is a very profound thing we have found," he said. "We're reaching into the fabric of the universe in a way we never have done before. We've kind of completed one particle's story. ... Now we're way out on the edge of exploration."

The discovery is so fundamental to the laws of nature, Incandela said, that it could spawn a new era of technology and development in the same way that Newton's laws of gravity led to basic equations of mechanics that made the industrial revolution possible.

"This is so far out on a limb, I have no idea where it will be applied," he added. "We're talking about something we have no idea what the implications are and may not be directly applied for centuries."

Comments

[Jake]

Ex-nilo
יש מאין

[Sarek]

OK so what do the literalists do now? (1) Say God created this particle just as he did fossils so we'd have something to play with?, or (2) say the scientists are atheistic heretics who are challenging God who will soon come down and smite them?, or (3) Say they must be Reform Jews who are basically Christians and doubt the inerrancy of Torah?, or (4) Say that this all couldn't have happened in less than 6000 years?

Non-inquiring minds don't care about your so-called science when all knowledge is in Torah.

[jon]

It's not the God particle and may explain how particles have mass, but it still doesn't explain the attraction of mass to mass, i.e. gravity.

It doesn't explain the apparent lack of symmetry with respect to antimatter.

It doesn't explain dark matter (observed through gravitation effects).

The "God Particle," if there is one, will be at the root of all of these things.

This isn't to minimize the importance of confirming the Higgs boson (though its mechanism has been observed for a while now), but this isn't on par with, say, the verification of QED, QCD, and electroweak unification.

And it certainly doesn't bear on theology any more or less than quantum theory in general.

[Adam Neira]

Yes there is a G-d. The timing of this discovery is fascinating. In the midst of the chaos and strife a gentle, dynamic energy of unfolding potential does exist. This is perhaps the essence of this particle. If all of humankind's political, economic and social systems would just yield to the paradigm of stability, order, benevolence and expansiveness things would improve. G-d does indeed have a plan for the world.

We should listen carefully to the messages he sends us...

[David]

This discovery is further evidence that the Standard Model of particle physics is correct but the name "God Particle" is popularist hype and based on the name of a popular book.

Whilst a discovery of outstanding value, unfortunately it does nothing to tie up the loose ends of the unification of quantum chromodynamics, the electroweak interaction and gravity, nor does it explain the ultimate origin of the Universe.

Higgs himself is an atheist,

[Ken]

Actually, it's a stunning proof of the theory that the Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe.

[Garnel Ironheart]

Oh for crying out loud!
Do you know where the name "God particle" came from?
A few years ago someone wrote a book on this subject and, in an attempt to convey the frustration physicists were feeling in trying to isolate it, called it "The Goddamned Particle". And the publisher decided that a title like that wouldn't sell so he unilaterally shortened it to "The God particle".
That's where the name comes from. You can toss the rest of your theories into the shred now. I mean shredder.

[Gam Ani]

Funny - this topic requires some actual scientific knowledge and intelligent thought, which must be why the usual trolls are scared away.

[Eli, what me messiah?]

I've found one way to think about the Highs Boson is by remembering that wonderful moment in Carl Sagan's Cosmos series when he describes how to make an apple pie from scratch. "you must first invent the universe".
He then proceeds to talk about the concept of infinity, from the infinity of the large, extending out into the emptiness of space, to the infinity of the small, by cutting an apple pie in half, and half again, and so on, down to its atomic particles. But infinity doesn't stop there. If we had the energy and ability, we could keep cutting the particles into further, smaller sizes, forever.
The Higgs Boson, to me, is just another step closer to being able to see how that pie was made from scratch.
I really wish Sagan were still around for this. It's wonderful stuff.

[Jake]

Gam Ani. LOL

Also need to explain the role of consciousness plays today and visa a vis the role at the time that all began.

נקודה סתימה

[David]

. If we had the energy and ability, we could keep cutting the particles into further, smaller sizes, forever.

Posted by: Eli, what me messiah? | July 05, 2012 at 03:52 PM

Minor correction - we would probably have to stop cutting things up when we got to the Planck Length in size - the point and which the structure of space time stops being smooth and assumes a foamy quantum structure and it would be impossible to discern any distance less than the Planck Length apart.

[Gam Ani]

The problem, as always, is that religion and science simply do not, and never will, mix: something that cannot be disproved, conversely can never be proved.

[soso]

Do you know why it's called God-Particle? A journalist wrote "looking for the god-dam particle", and the editor cancelled "dam"...

[danny]

I didn't know that Adam had a micro-penis.

[Harvey]

WOW.... First time the comments to a FM posting were not written by imbecilic toirah experts. Science given enough time and resources answers all questions. No doubt some of the toirah bochurs are intellectually talented. If they would turn this talent away from reading just 5 books over and over for a lifetime to helping answer questions similar to that posed by the Higgs Bosun this would be a better world

[Fleishike Kishke]

Amazing! The week before last a group of scientists came to the Rebbe for 3-Tammuz and were davening with a lot of kavanah for something about Boston. When people asked who they were and what they wanted from the Rebbe, the people said they were looking for something very elusive called boson (not Boston) and even though they were skeptical about asking the Rebbe for help, they were at wit's end and ready to try anything. And they felt good because they got the impression that the Rebbe heard them and that all would be well. And now, not even two weeks later, these very people have made the announcement that they found their boson.

[David]

Back to the frumma... What is the frumma view on the structure of matter and atomic physics? Do they believe in quantum mechanics (probabalistic in nature, renouncing causality)? Or do they go by Empedocles in that matter is made of the earth, air, fire and water? Or do they go by Aristotle who added the aether to the four elements?

Or don't they know or care (Neanderthals)?

[rebitzman]

The problem, as always, is that religion and science simply do not, and never will, mix:

The Rambam would disagree.

[Lubavitchers are Christians]

Later, she told reporters that the standard model of physics is still incomplete because "the dream is to find an ultimate theory that explains everything. We are far from that."

Can someone please explain to me what they DID find, and what they DID NOT find.

[Eli, what me messiah?]

David, beautiful! How can someone not love this?

[jancsibacsi]

If i MAY I D RATHER CALL IT THE SATMER PARTICLE,SINCE THEY HOLD UP THIS WORLD WITH THEIR LIMUD TOIREH:))

[Abu Jihad Schneerson]

David,I imagine the Woody Allen kinda scene:you enter a charedi yeshivah and start talking about Empedocles,Aristotle and quantum mechanics.The bochurim start to give each othe blank stares meaning "Nu!Wtf is this frey schmuck talking about???"Then they start to get nervous and you find yourself kicked out by a shouting mob of 'students',while still inquiring about their opinion about the structure of matter and atomic physics.

[jancsibacsi]

I forgot to write on one thing religion and science do agree its how the universe came into being ,they both agree it was created out of nothing.

[Lchaim]

I was molested at 7 years old by our middle aged town shoychet
Oy vey

[jancsibacsi]

Lchaim-So go and beat him up you will fell much better,di farbisser asshole.

[jancsibacsi]

Abu Jihad Schneerson-szia nezed csak mit ir ez aki enelotem irt hogy het eves, probal csusagot csinalni asz hogy en irtam amit o ir emlekszek,iljen alat az alat kerbe kene legyen.

[Korbendallas72]

WOW.... First time the comments to a FM posting were not written by imbecilic toirah experts. Science given enough time and resources answers all questions.
Spoken like a true believer. There is one question that science has never provided an answer to, and never will: Why?
No doubt some of the toirah bochurs are intellectually talented. If they would turn this talent away from reading just 5 books over and over for a lifetime to helping answer questions similar to that posed by the Higgs Bosun this would be a better world
Posted by: Harvey | July 05, 2012 at 04:33 PM
The last time we heard this promise it was about the wonders of nuclear power and lo and behold now we're all inhaling cesium-134.

[Abu Jihad Schneerson]

@jancsibacsi,szerintem nem is Zsidò!Csak cukkol!Le van szarva!

[Korbendallas72]

I'm not sure why the discovery of a new subatomic particle is somehow inconsistent with Torah. The only people saying this are atheists. Their ability to marvel at their own magnificence and stare in wonder at just how fucking awesome they are means that they don't need a god - they've got themselves!

[God is not amused]

LOL! Satmar paticle. Now that is funny! They do live in a parallel universe mentally. Too bad not physically. Their Borg cube just got sent reeling through the spaces of their minds. I can just hear their shouting matches aka verbal discourse.
God is truly amused at their puny minds trying to interpret and comprehend HIM.

[jancsibacsi]

Korbendallas72-You hit the nail on its head,i knew this all the time they worship themselfs so in actuality they are in their mind gods this is why they are so stubborn,i guaratee you if their sec8. food stamps would be taken away they would know that they are not god.

[seymour]

The problem, as always, is that religion and science simply do not, and never will, mix:

The Rambam would disagree.

Posted by: rebitzman | July 05, 2012 at 05:36 PM

because he was willing to accept science and when it contradicted his believe or religious believes he simply decide he was mistaken and interpreted the Torah wrong

[seymour]

of course this really has no bearing on religion since one can simply say that is how god created the world

[David]

Can someone please explain to me what they DID find, and what they DID NOT find.

Posted by: Lubavitchers are Christians | July 05, 2012 at 05:46 PM

The Higgs Boson is a particle predicted by the Standard Model of particle physics that was the last to be found. The Standard Model is the accepted model of the structure of matter at the subatomic level. The Higgs particle is responsible for the mass of various subatomic particles.

It has only just been discovered because it requires enormously high energies to see it and massive detectors and computing power to sort through huge data sets to find evidence for it. The main reason that the Large Hadron Collidor was built was to test for its existence.

An analogy to its detection is to consider an Olympic sized swimming pool filled with sand. The number of collisions that need to be examined in total is represented by the number of grains of sand. The number of collisions that are related to evidence of the Higgs Boson would be about a dozen.

Its discovery helps prove that the Standard Model is correct.

It does not provide answers to the other deep questions in physics such as providing insight into the unification of quantum chromodynamics, the electroweak
interaction and gravity, nor does it explain the origin of the Universe.

Its discovery is an enormous achievement but essentially helps prove the Standard Model without providing any further deep insight into the nature of the universe.

[ah-pee-chorus]

seymour -

the rambam was very clear in moreh nevuchim that he was willing to accept science when it disagreed with chazal . however he was also clear that when science seems to put certain basic foundations in question it is completely forbidden to accept that science. IOTW he wanted it both ways.

[David]

Collider not collidor...

[jancsibacsi]

This latest confirmation of the theory that matter is made up of this higgs boson i heard one scientist say that this is also prove that there are many many universes the name for it is multiverse,rxixting maybee millions of other universes.

[Pagan]

ah-pee-chorus, the book that Moses ben-Maimon wrote is called "Dalalat al ha'irin". He explicitly disavowed the Hebrew translation, so it seems to me discourteous to associate it with him.

[adam hasheni]

The Rambam would disagree.

Which is why the frumma don't hold by him.

[Dave]

Rebitzman and Seymour, I agree with your comments 100%.
APC- Some of the stuff that the Rambam said was very "political"- every time he writes things which are in contradiction to his rational positions, a great majority of the time it's because he didn't think it was worth alienating the powers that be/ machers, etc.
However, of course if any conclusions would lead in the direction of disbelief in the existence of the Creator, of course Rambam would reject that.
Then, so would I, and I'm not even Orthodox.

[ah-pee-chorus]

Pagan |-

thats ok. the torah used today is descended from the one ezra found/wrote. and that was in assyrian /aramaic.

[ah-pee-chorus]

Dave-

read my post here..

Posted by: ah-pee-chorus | March 27, 2011 at 07:58 PM from

http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2011/03/could-noahs-flood-have-really-happened-123.html

he said one MUST accept these events as literal yet we now know they couldnt have taken place.

However, of course if any conclusions would lead in the direction of disbelief in the existence of the Creator, of course Rambam would reject that.
Then, so would I, and I'm not even Orthodox.

its rare to have someone actually admit that. most fundies of every religion claim that if they were shown solid evidence that bible god doesnt exist they would stop believing in him. the truth is as you say, and they are lying. fundies arent interested in truth, theyre interested in twisting and contorting the words of the book they believe in so that it isnt blatantly wrong. and there is no limit to how ridiculous they are willing to sound in order to maintain their beliefs which are unchangeable.

[Dave]

Well, APC, thanks I guess, lol!
I am willing to accept evolution.
I am willing to entertain the idea that maybe the flood didn't exactly happen how we think, or maybe the figures are a bit off on exactly how many people were at the foot of Har Sinai at the time of Matan Torah- (but I still believe it was in the many thousands). That's why I'm not Orthodox.
However I am not going to stop believing in the Creator of the Universe.
I always believed in Hashem, and still do.
Thanks to FM, among other things, I've become more observant.
Also my observance and belief consoles me for the fact that I may never have any kids. I married for the
first time at 45, and she turned out to be a paranoid schizophrenic and then we got divorced, and I haven't remarried yet again, and which nice normal (ie. non-gold-digger) woman of about 38 would be interested in a guy of 53. Even trying to meet women who are willing to adopt is tough.
So without my religion I'd be pretty sad.
Make that very very sad.

[ah-pee-chorus]

: Dave -

i understand and i really do appreciate your honesty. i think ive suggested before that you might have a better chance at finding a mate if youd broaden your horizons, though that might mean including completely secular jews and even non-jews.
theoretically would you be happier with a nice wife and a couple of kids who arent jewish, or single, childless and somewhat observant?

i'm not suggesting that it has to be a choice, nor that i know whats best for you, but i am curious.

[jancsibacsi]

In science there is a saying question everything, in religion its the opposite question nothing.

[jancsibacsi]

Dave-With religion or without both are sad states of being.

[Max]

totally confused. All I know is that Shmarya is trying to use this article to prove that there is no god, and i don't see anywhere in the article anyone claiming to know how this world came into existence. So we're back to square one.

[jancsibacsi]

Max -you didnt see what i wrote before,both religion and science agree that the universe came into being out of nothing look back, you heard of the big bang ? science says that the big bang explosion came out of something millions of times smalled that an atom so it is out of nothing that we came into being.

[Max]

jancs - no matter how many times you repeat it, it still doesn't make sense. How the hell do you make something out of nothing?

[ah-pee-chorus]

How the hell do you make something out of nothing?

Posted by: Max

ask god. not only did he appear from nothing, but he doesnt even exist. at least we know the universe exists. besides, if you determine that the universe couldnt have come into being by any other means than supernatural, then i have about 100,000 gods for you to choose from. and if you dont like gods, trust me that the invisible black unicorn is behind it all. the IBU hates all dogma and all religion so for your sake i hope you have rejected all religion as adult fairy tales.

[Dave]

APC- thanks.
Frankly, I have been on many dates with secular Jewish women in the past.
The problem is that since I am Sephardic, and since they are Ashkenazi and have no interest in the Jewish religion only Jewish culture, my Jewish culture is totally foreign to them, so basically I am irrelevant as far as they're concerned, at least my Jewishness is irrelevant to them. They just end up getting disappointed that I don't care for borscht or blintzes or Yiddish.
Right now I am mainly dating Chinese women.
They're smart, they're cute and most of them have no deep background in any religion (Thank you, Chairman Mao and the CPC, lol!), so I could see that there would be a possibility if a Chinese woman and I got serious, that I could gently persuade her, over a number of years, to become Jewish.
I have also dated some WASP/ European Christian women in the past. My experience was that they tend to be uncomfortable with even Biblical kashrut, and they have an emotional attachment to Christmas trees. And that is just the more secular Christian women. I have never dated a religious Christian woman (even though I've had religious Christian women friends, since we agree on "social morality), since they're too hung up on the "J-man", lol!
Sorry for the long answer.

[ah-pee-chorus]

Dave -

im glad to hear youre out and about. i hope you find happiness no matter what theological package its wrapped in.

[Dave]

Thanks, APC.

[mike]

The question is if that particle is haredi or not. If it is then I want nothing to do with it and I say continue looking for another.

[ah-pee-chorus]

The question is if that particle is haredi or not. If it is then I want nothing to do with it and I say continue looking for another.

Posted by: mike

the experiment worked so there was nothing charedi about it.

[jancsibacsi]

According to hareidim its a hareidi particle yes since their learning toire holds toghether the whole universe andbecause of it it came into being nu so vus iz nayes:)) the hassid would say:)

[Joe Field]

Posted by: jancsibacsi | July 05, 2012 at 10:44 PM
This one was truly funny.

[Jake]

Dave
With your plan I hope your not Syrian.
Happy. hunting !

[Jake]

Nothing said here is contradictory to some more esoteric teachings.
The problem is most of us including lol el Ike don't have the knowledge to decipher the teachings. And they do need to be deciphered.

Not even sure Daniel Matt gas the ability / knowledge.

[Shoshi]

Dave, how about dating secular Sephardic women?

[Dave]

Jake, thanks. I am not Syrian, I am Iraqi (3rd generation).
Shoshi, thanks, there are very few secular Sephardic women whom I have met. I am not really secular myself. Some time ago, I would have called myself Conservative, until Conservative became so left-wing it has become like Reform but with more Hebrew. So I am tending toward Orthodox, except I don't agree that electricity = fire. So Orthodox people would say I am not Orthodox either.

[Yochanan Lavie]

I think much, if not most, of the torah is allegory, with just a grain of historical truth. I don't think Higgs boson proves or disproves God, although I intuitively believe and probably always will. Like Dave, it's an important part of my personal identity and emotional life. I salute the scientists, who pursue the truth wherever it takes them. I don't feel threatened by them at all. It's the old cliche that works for me: science tells us how and religion tells us why. If it doesn't work for you, live and be well.

[Sol]

David,I imagine the Woody Allen kinda scene:you enter a charedi yeshivah and start talking about Empedocles,Aristotle and quantum mechanics.The bochurim start to give each othe blank stares meaning "Nu!Wtf is this frey schmuck talking about???

I imagine the reaction would be similar if Mr Allen entered a typical high school in Bedford-Stuyvesant and would not only be given the blank stare but they would actually say "wtf is this fool saying".

[jancsibacsi]

I got just informed that they are looking for another particle called shoite chassid lets hope for a brakthrough although here in bp there are thousands of them so it shouldnt be hard for find it.:)

[jancsibacsi]

Yochanan Lavie-The Chinees dont have any religion and they are just fine, in fact their family values are even better then the jews they are very disciplined go figure.

[Rivka]

The beauty and wonder of god's creation. Just like we say that every day is mother's day, every sub-atomic particle is god's particle.

[Bassy the Haredi Slayer]

though that might mean including completely secular jews and even non-jews.

Right now I am mainly dating Chinese women.

I know this nebech guy who was never able to find a shiduch, in the Orthodox community he was considered a loser. When he was in his late forty - early fifties he met this Chinese girl who was much younger than him and probably makes twice as much as him (she is a nurse). They have two lovely children, drive a Lexus and they seems to be very happy. Not sure if she converted but they live a Jewish lifestyle whatever it means.

[Yoel Mechanic]

Or don't they know or care (Neanderthals)?

Posted by: David | July 05, 2012 at 05:15 PM
----------------------------------------

Look, this question is extremely difficult to answer. As I've said before: in a dysfunctional situation it is hard to know your own attitude let alone anyone else's. Things are really mixed up on these issues, it isn't black and white. Everyone, almost, is very reductionist, and those who bail out (eg. OTD) make websites, presumably, to shine a light on the situation while often continuing with the very same dysfunctional attitudes of reductionism and tunnel vision, etc etc etc

[Bassy the Haredi Slayer]

Aren't you the same Dave who posted numerous times on this web site how much he objects to anal sex and thinks it should be criminalized.
here http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2012/05/haredim-allegedly-torch-chabad-library-345.html?cid=6a00d83451b71f69e201630567da45970d#tp
here http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2010/12/hasidic-jews-demonstrate-against-dont-ask-dont-tell-at-west-point-345.html?cid=6a00d83451b71f69e20147e0f21958970b#tp

http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2010/05/american-jewish-leaders-call-israeli-conversion-bill-undemocratic-234.html?cid=6a00d83451b71f69e2013480a607b2970c#tp

One can do an advance search on failed messiah with the words 'anal sex' and find many comments by Dave objecting to it. If you were not so uptight about other people sex preferences you might have an easier time with women.

[Gam Ani]

Sorry - i've been off the thread since yesterday afternoon.

A couple of you have very aptly pointed out that according to the current charedi "group-think", the Rambam himself is a heretic. My posit on science and religion was aimed at the current charedi world.

As well, my comment was not intended to conclude, therefore, that religion must be tossed aside. As Yochanan Lavie's recent post pointed out, for those of us with enough inner strength and intellectual honesty we are able to live with both science and religion. Rather, when it comes to issues of religion, one must be honest enough to acknowledge that certain fundamentals are simply a matter of faith and can never be proven. If your belief in God is so shaky as to be unable to accept this, congratulations - you have self-diagnosed as a 'sheeple' in the charedi camp.

[Mike]

@ Gam Ani and Yochanan Lavie:

Agreed. As far as I am concerned, I have looked at some of the things they have said about the Higgs Boson, and no, it doesn't prove/disprove creationism in any way whatsoever. Science (for me) is just a way to explain how the world that G-d created works, there is nothing wrong with that and nothing heretical about studying and following it. Haredi culture is so vehemently against science mainly because, at least in my opinion, they wish to keep their flock away from all progressive and intelligent thought.

[Eli, what me messiah?]

Posted by: Yochanan Lavie | July 06, 2012 at 07:55 AM

YL, if you have not read it, you might very much enjoy Ken Miller's Finding Darwin's God. Miller is the author of the leading high school biology textbook, and professes to be a profound catholic. his view is somewhat similar to what Rivka commented above. he essentially says there's no need to assume science and religion are in conflict. the biologist Steven J. Gould had a theory that I like which is "Non-Overlapping Magisteria" (NOM), which is to say that religion occupies the spiritual side of things and science the laws that govern the natural world, and they do not overlap. it's also a good way to make religious folk feel less threatened by science. but sounds like Miller might be more your style. it's all good stuff.

[Eli, what me messiah?]

some excerpts from Ken Miller's Finding Darwin's God, which seems appropriate here (and I hope Korbendallas has not skulked off just yet).

"Each of the great Western monotheistic traditions sees God as truth, love, and knowledge. This should mean that each and every increase in our understanding of the natural world is a step toward God and not, as many people assume, a step away. If faith and reason are both gifts from God, then they should play complementary, not conflicting, roles in our struggle to understand the world around us....
Science reveals a universe that is dynamic, flexible, and logically complete. It presents a vision of life that spreads across the planet with endless variety and intricate beauty. It suggests a world in which our material existence is not an impossible illusion propped up by magic, but the genuine article, a world in which things are exactly what they seem. A world in which we were formed, as the Creator once told us, from the dust of the earth itself....
Those who ask from science a final argument, an ultimate proof, an unassailable position from which the issue of God may be decided will always be disappointed. As a scientist I claim no new proofs, no revolutionary data, no stunning insight into nature that can tip the balance in one direction or another..."

[Dave]

@Bassy the Haredi Slayer-
What's YOUR problem? Do you like anal sex? Huh?
You don't even know who the hell I am.
Leave me alone. I have never attacked you, I have never even responded to your comments.
Now I am responding.
Didn't you learn from your parents what they taught- if you can't say nice things to someone or about someone, just SHUT UP !
This is the 2nd time you have made such "ad hominem" attacks against me.
So I am telling you now- for the 1st time- SHUT UP!!!!

[Gam Ani]

Dave - LOL. Take a deep breath. You're the one pontificating about how you don't agree with "even heterosexual anal sex" - isn't that an ad hominem attack on any of us heterosexual anal sex lovers??
:)

[Dave]

GA, What Bassy has said twice was an ad hominem attack on me, and every reader on this site knows it. It was very rude and hurtful and I do not take back what I said.

[ah-pee-chorus]

Eli, what me messiah? -

i think the concept of Non-Overlapping Magisteria" is just a clever escape hatch for those who wish to maintain their cognitive dissonance. i dont have time to write a whole new piece so i'm reposting parts from earlier threads...

there is a definite conflict between science and religion. the reason the argument that god is outside the realm of science fails is that science is search for truth which can be measured by one of the five senses (or a device which impacts one of senses, such as a microscope) . so if someone believes that there exists a god beyond our universe which had and has no contact or impact on us, that would be beyond realm of science, as there is nothing for science to study, as per this definition. however, when the claim is that not only does god exist but he wrote a book, in which many claims are stated that affect everything related to this earth, starting with its time and method of creation, well then there is a whole lot that science can study to see whether its true. and under this scientific scrutiny the torah falls woefully short in its claim and need for inerrancy. the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of man having been its author, while no evidence exists which in fact points to a metaphysical author.
as for the arguments that since the torah is not a history book it wasn't concerned with creation, the facts say otherwise. the author didn't have to mention the creation at all, but once discussed, an inerrant god must be accurate. the torah version is not only inaccurate, it strongly resembles the creation myth 'enuma elish' which preceeded the torah. the torah need not mention the order of the creation of life, but once it does, the order must be correct or an inerrant author is precluded.

the same claim can be made about the FSM. he exists and created the world and runs everything but operates on a different plane than science. once a claim is made that the earth was not only created by a god, butthat god continues to intercede every second, there are various types of evidence that should support this, and none do.

the reason most orths and all charedim reject parts of science is that science renders their beliefs untenable. rabbinic judaism relies on every letter and word in the torah being true, as understood either via direct explanation from god at har sinai, or via the explanations of chazal in the gemara. when science shows that chazal were dead wrong on many things,icluding many with halachic implications, the entire house of cards crumbles down. if the torah said god created each animal separately, and created man from dirt, and not one of chazal or any rishon knew that this wasnt so, then why would they know any better what tefillin , kashrus or tzitzis should be? they all thought the earth was 6000 years old. that IS what the book says. science teaches thats wrong by a factor of 700,000 . that is just one example of science and religions based on bible god being in conflict. in fact, because of this conflict, apologists try in vain to change the meaning of the torah to make it fit. if there were no conflict between sciences findings and religion, there would be no need for a change.

"Each of the great Western monotheistic traditions sees God as truth, love, and knowledge. This should mean that each and every increase in our understanding of the natural world is a step toward God

not really. this would only be true if scientific advances led towards a belief that there is a master manipulator behind everything. instead it shows the opposite.
this statement only works if one has pre-supposed god and yet is willing to keep minimizing his direct role in the running of the universe as science continues to explain things without any need for him.

suggests a world in which our material existence is not an impossible illusion propped up by magic, but the genuine article, a world in which things are exactly what they seem. A world in which we were formed, as the Creator once told us, from the dust of the earth itself....

he took quite a leap here. the bible says man was created directly from dust. evolution teaches a quite different path.

If faith and reason are both gifts from God, then they should play complementary, not conflicting, roles in our struggle to understand the world around us....

here he just gets ridiculous. faith and reason are not both gifts no matter what the source. faith is not pretty nor positive. it is a belief absent evidence. that is a really bad thing which once present can lead otherwise good people to do almost anything. but not only is it dangerous, faith is entirely the opposite of everything scientific. science is truth based on evidence, reason and logic. faith says its good to believe in something not only if theres no evidence, but even when theres contrary evidence, provided we engage in compartmentalized thinking.

[Gam Ani]

APC - faith is only dangerous if one ascribes to the current, distorted faith of the charedi group-think. If the utlimate goal of a "God-fearing/God-believing" person is to become closer to God - i.e., to become a better person, less petty, more loving of humanity - then it's there is no danger to faith, as anything that leads one towards harming another human will necesssarliy be viewed as outside of the 'faith'. In this regards, there is nothing wrong with compartmentalizing religion and science. As with anything, it's a question of motive and degree.

[ah-pee-chorus]

Gam Ani -

faith is what leads muslim suicide bombers to kill thousands in order to please god and obtain 72 virgins. faith is why homosexuals are so reviled and why members of many religions want them killed. judaism is quite clear on this unless you begin to reject the torah as gods words, in which case you have called everything into question. faith is why people waste money and risk their health on homeopathic remedies. faith is even the reason why many in north korea accept the supernatural abilities of their dear leader. faith means not having to question the results of your actions. i could go on. faith is a terribly dangerous thing. though it doesnt automatically cause harm, it opens the door wide for many evil and wasteful actions.

the only 'positive' aspect to it is that it permits those who entertain it to avoid reality. so do alcohol, weed, opiates and hallucinogens.

[Gam Ani]

APC - all of your examples, though, prove the point that it's what you have faith in that leads to those consequences. A world without faith is quite sterile. In my opinion, it's a matter of finding the right balance, which I can honestly admit is something I grapple with daily. As you point out, at some point, the questions of faith lead to outright rejection of what some would label as fundamentals. I guess maybe that's where I'm leaning towards - a world with GOd, but not as defined by a specific religion (or perhaps I should say, as incompletely defined by many religions).

[Yoel Mechanic]

So I am tending toward Orthodox, except I don't agree that electricity = fire. So Orthodox people would say I am not Orthodox either.

Posted by: Dave | July 06, 2012 at 07:16 AM
============================================
Look Dave, avoiding electric lights on Shabbos is not a big deal. So even if you have the incredible expertise to reach an alternate conclusion there is also the principle of siding with the majority. I mean you need to decide what it means to fit into a community and participate into a community. This one (tiny) Shabbos issue is hardly a speed bump. Perhaps it is a symbol for a whole vast away of issues. I mean, if there are Sephardic women to marry, this hardly seems like something worthy to hold you back.

[Yoel Mechanic]

>A world without faith is quite sterile.

I'll take that as a matter of faith

[Dave]

Yoel, thanks for your comments.
However, the majority (Ashkenazim) think that I am irrelevant anyway, so why should I care.
As far as Sefardic women, I even asked the secretary of the rabbi of the largest Sefardic synagogue in town to introduce me to a woman, but he kind of shied away.

[Eli, what me messiah?]

APC, the intelligence of your post requires a more considered response which I can't get to now. But I won't defend Miller as I don't hold his views, just find them the most articulate statement of that line of thinking. certainly his complete text, which accepts we are the product of evolution, is about as scientific as you can get for a theist. As for NOM, I agree it's maintaining cognitive dissonance, which is why I like it. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
I'd as soon believe in the FSM as other deities, but I don't bother to go there at all. the natural world is enough for me. But I can respect that it's important for others and not feel compelled to show them that their theism is delusional.
Anyway, not enough time for a better response. A good shabbos to you, and the great minds at CERN.

[Bassy the Haredi Slayer]

So I am telling you now- for the 1st time- SHUT UP!!!!

and I would not what would you do ? tell on me?

The problem is not what sexual practices you favor , the problem is that you want to enforce on us and prevent people from doing what YOU think is degrading. If you do not like anal, oral or other kind of sex do deprive other people from it.

[Bassy the Haredi Slayer]

FSM is quite pleasurable (so I heard) and does not require a worship of any kind.

FSM = Full Service Massage

[ah-pee-chorus]

Eli, what me messiah? -

miller seems like a christian counterpart to slifkin. i do appreciate the intellectual honesty of those theists who admit the truth of evolution.
i hope your shabbos was nice.

[Dave]

Shut up, Bassy!

[Eli, what me messiah?]

APC, thanks and hope you had the same. Slifkin is a fair comparison (and had an interesting post on the Higgs boson discovery), also because he has also taken lumps from his religious community: as a prominent scientist vocally opposing creationism, and especially after he was a key witness for the plaintiffs in the Kitzmiller case in Dover, Pa, testifying against intelligent design theory. I don't know if his books were ever subject to a religious ban, though, which I seem to recall was the case with Slifkin for daring to state the earth is billions of years old...

[Brian]

I wish they hadn't dubbed it the "God Particle" ... that's typical of science writers who feel the need to hype the already-fascinating physics underlying the Standard Model.

In any case, Shmarya- thanks for posting.

[Steven Waldman DDS Jerusalem]

Clarification- the "nothing, or "ayin" out of which the world was "created,"  is perhaps better understood not as the nothing as we generally understand that term to mean. 
A deeper appreciation of the concept would be to understand that word to signify "no-thing," in other words a condition or state not yet differentiated  and conceptualized into graspable things, into seemingly separate concepts. Identical to this is the idea of the "emptiness" of all phenomena that Buddhism discusses. Early western studies concluded that eastern thought was nihilistic at its core, a prejudice that present day fundamentalist theists maintain. Later, more sophisticated studies appreciated the true fullness of that "emptiness," for it refers to the wholeness and radical interconnectivity of all phenomena  before our mind and language divides that wholeness into seemingly separate categories and disparate objects which are at a deep level "empty" of fully independent existence. 
בדבר ה׳ שמים נעשו  :  thinking is thinging. Dibbur creates davar. Conceptualization, language, is seemingly divisive, and a world of things seems to be created "out of " no- thing.  Perhaps the goal of "tshuva,"  is to "return" to that state of wholeness; not as a regression to an infantile pre-rational state prior to distinction, and not as a running away from the world of matter as if the spiritual realm is something different, but to a post-rational integrative  appreciation that experiences distinctions, the "yesh," the physical world of matter and form, not as a contradiction to wholeness, to ayin, to spirituality, but as a perfect expression of what wholeness really is. 
In summary: the no-thing, the ayin,  is not prior to the yesh- they are not separated by time as children are taught in grade school, and one didn't "come out of" the other. The ayin is the inner dimension of the yesh in each and every moment; it is the total inter connectivity, the radical interdependence, the full reality of each seemingly disparate moment and object.
Steven