When Orthodox Jews Don’t Know The Halakha They Seek To Follow…

A tow-truck driver delivered a Jewish baby yesterday when the baby’s father, an Orthodox Jew, wouldn’t touch his wife for "religious reasons" and instead stood on an East Harlem street and tried to flag down passing drivers.

The New York Post reports that atow-truck driver delivered a Jewish baby yesterday when the baby’s father, an Orthodox Jew, wouldn’t touch his wife for "religious reasons" and instead stood on an East Harlem street and tried to flag down passing drivers.

Antonio Paulino was driving in East Harlem when a man flagged him down.

“He said, ‘My wife is giving birth,’” Paulino told the Post.

But, the father-to-be told Paulino, he couldn’t touch the baby or the mother for religious reasons.

“I reached in and took the baby out,” Paulino told the Post.

Halakhicly, the father-to-be was obligated to help his wife and the baby. Helping a woman in the middle of childbirth is pikuakh nefesh, the saving of life, and therefore the father-to-be was mandated to help his wife.

Instead, he stood on a street and flagged down a tow truck driver.

There has to be a huge gap in a person’s knowledge to act that way.

[Hat Tips: Moshe Ber and Seymour.]

Comments

[ז׳ גדול]

Obviously an am haaretz bal teshuva

[A. Nuran]

He was in over his head, panicked and came up with the first excuse he could.

[Shoshi]

In my experience, huge gaps in knowledge are constantly being exposed. With all the shiurim and study sessions and English seforim and online learning available, I am astounded at the ignorance I encounter--not of more complex topics, but of elementary halachic principles. It must come from the over-dependence on authority and lack of trust in oneself that is fostered in the Orthodox world.

[jancsibacsi]

Shoshi -well said youre right on,they have no selfconfidence in themselfs

[John Nagle, Silicon Valley, CA]

This is in Manhattan, where there's a hospital within a few blocks of anywhere. Mt Sinai, 98th and Madison is in East Harlem. So there was even a Jewish hospital handy.

A call to 911 would bring an ambulance. A smartphone would locate a hospital. Most people in NYC know where the big hospitals are. Mt. Sinai covers several city blocks. A basic education in the resources of NYC seems to be lacking here.

[Al]

The New York Post, who else?

[danny]

This whole story is quite cinematic. Imagine the Woody Allen (or even Spike Lee) treatment of this screenplay.

[Jeff]

I think it was here that a few years ago, someone told a story about a frum family who rented out their basement apartment to a kollel family. On one Shabbat, they smelled gas coming from the tenants' apartment. The dad went down to investigate; it turned out the pilot light on the range had gone out, and the young father wouldn't allow his wife to turn off the gas. The owner shut it off while the younger man glared at him.

It's amazing that any of these people make it out of adolescence.

[Garnel Ironheart]

There's a bigger issue here: decision making. right now it's considered such a terrible thing to pasken for oneself in the Chareidi community that no one wants to do it. Had a "Gadol" told this idiot he could deliver his wife then he just might have tried but when left to decide for himself whether this was a situation of pikuach nefesh, well who is he to render a decision on such a thing?

[Shoshi]

That's true. People have told me about halachic rulings they have gotten from a gadol, which could have been determined by the local rabbi, if not by the individual with the question, himself--but they said, "It takes a gadol to be able to make such a ruling." Basically, if it deviates at all from the first-line approach, the average local rabbi doesn't even have enough knowledge to determine if it's halachic, and if he does, he quakes in his boots to be the one to say it is. He'd much rather hand it off to someone with more "standing" and avoid the responsibility. (It's like sales clerks versus managers, I guess.)

[nachos]

Didn't he have to touch his wife to create the baby?

[Maskil]

The moment the woman cannot walk on her own is the determining moment that the husband may no longer be in contact with her (due to levitical impurity).

[Bartley Kulp]

Wow!!! AAA does all that for you?!

[seymour]

But, the father-to-be told Paulino, he couldn’t touch the baby or the mother for religious reasons.

I can see a business opportunity

kosher for delivery gloves to be carrying by every man woes wife of concubine is pregnant

[maven]

Everything is forbidden.

[Deremes]

""When Orthodox Jews Don’t Know The Halakha They Seek To Follow…""

Obviously it has nothing to do with Orthodox JEWS.It is about an Orthodox JEW who has no common sense who doesn't know whats what.On something like this the mishna tells us:lo am haaretz chassid.Probably a young man who got lost in his mind and didn't think that its pikuakh nefesh and everything in the world gets put aside for pikuakh nefesh.
So again it has NOTHING to do with orthodox Jews in general. From now on when they learn halachas they will be told that if you have no choice and you are the FDR alone you are allowed to touch wife.Otherwise some silly illiterates will let their wives die c'v.

[Litvish]

They are more ignorant of life than a turtle.

And yet, they expect the rest of us to carry their water, pay their bills, give them koved because they are the real representatives of Hashem yisborakh.

These worthless parasites all deserve to be cut loose. Take away their medicaid, section 8, food stamps, force them to pay taxes, share in the community efforts.

They will collapse without our support.

Finally, the entire world will see what pathetic losers they and their rebbes are.

Hashem hates people like this, avdei avoda zorah.

[Lubavitchers are Christians]

Hashem hates people like this, avdei avoda zorah.

Posted by: Litvish | June 25, 2012 at 02:24 PM

How do you profess to know whom Hashem loves and whom Hashem hates.

The haredim say that Hashem hates gays.

Litvish and haredim seem to know it all.

[No Light]

Maskil - so what? Pikuach nefeshtrumps that.

This man is the very definition of a chassid shoteh.

[No Light]

Excuse my poor typing, new phone having fun at my expens!

[Atheodox Jew]

He was in over his head, panicked and came up with the first excuse he could.

A. Nuran, my thoughts exactly. He probably freaked out about the idea of delivering the baby and was happy to let anyone step in and do it for him. The "no touching" line was his way of rationalizing to the tow truck driver, his wife and himself how he could possibly pass the buck and let a total stranger (literally "off the street") deliver the baby while he stood off to the side.

[Alter Kocker]

What is so entirely angering about this is that the idiot would have stood there absolutely senseless, and allowed his wife and child to die because he was afraid to touch his wife. Is this an impossible situation? Is there no one to stand on the bimah of every little Haredi shul on shabbos and tell these fools that when an emergency strikes they have to help? Are they so overloaded with minutae and rules that they cannot see the reality of situations? Are they so robotic that they need the intervention of the rav to move their own bowels?

And what would have happened if the woman and child would have been injured or died? Shame should follow this entire cult.

This is no longer a religion when it comes to Haredi belief and culture. This is a cult. They have given over any hope of being individuals and critical thinking to a group that can only charitably called leaders. No these fools follow ancient dementia cases and if one of these gedolim stand on a bimah somewhere and say that it is good to soil yourself in public then they will go ahead and soil themselves in public.

[Rochel]

If that guy would have had a cell phone, he could have called the rabbi to ask for permission to help his wife (and also call 911).

It may be true that this man was so overwhelmed at the idea of helping his wife, likely never before having seen female genitalia and having no idea what to do.

I am surprised the article didn't mention the guy tearing out the interior of the car to fashion a mechinza for his wife from all the people passing in cars ( and possibly also on bikes.)

So I guess there are no male charedi gynocologists then?

[mm]

Interesting the 1st post i read in a while that Shmarya did not write like this
When CHAREIDI Jews Don’t Know The Halakha They Seek To Follow…

[Barry]

Deremes, whilst the mishnah states that 'Lo Am Haaretz Chosid' it states nothing about an Am Haaretz not being a rebbe as the Teitelbaums prove.

[bostonborn]

I had a frum child stop me on Shabbos to ask me to pull the plug from a sparking air conditioner, while the adults sat around the table. The fire station was one block down the road. As a secular jew, i wondered if saving a life superceded shabbos. Or the fact that they got me to do it was okay. it did not matter to them. i was always taught that saving a life was as important. I wondered if they would have allowed a fire to start.

[An old classmate]

And shmarya twists the story AGAIN! It says nowhere in the jew hating ny post,that he TRIED to flag down a car,rather that he flagged down a car.Propably the first he saw passing by,and most definetaly because he freaked out and had to give an excuse.But you bored rusty nail Shmarya,had to take a non story from the bottom corner of the ny post,and stretch it even further,cause it was about a jew.What a shmuck!!

[Proton Soup]

i was under the impression there is a halakha against letting idiots breed.

[Sarek]

Bostonborn - I recall a story some years back, in Jerusalem I think, when a house fire started on Shabbat. The homeowner walked to the rabbi's house to ask him for permission to contact the fire department (which somehow is allowed to work on Saturday). The rabbi granted that permission. I do not recall if there was anything left of the house when the firefighters eventually got there.

[David]

Just how do you explain this bizarro stuff to non-Jews or even regular Jews?

Not knowing the Halacha just goes to show you that all their years of not working and "learning" in Kollel account for EXACTLY NOTHING.

There is a very basic Halacha here and in any case, if he knew his wife was pregnant (he may not of as he probably never looks at her or talks to her much) then he should have learned the relevant Halachot.

[No Light]

Rochel - I just laughed so hard at the idea of the car mechitza, my poor pets were very startled!

[Shoshi]

I wondered if they would have allowed a fire to start.

Posted by: bostonborn | June 25, 2012 at 03:58 PM

Absolutely would allow a fire to start, if they followed the halacha I was taught. Even if a fire DID start, you can't put it out. The rabbi said I could set bags full of water in the place where the fire would spread and then the fire would melt the bags open and hopefully be put out.

On top of which, they obviously didn't recognize that you were a Jew, since the child (I assume pre-bar-mitzvah age) should have asked a non-Jew to help.

[Office of the Chief Rabbi]

Didn't he have to touch his wife to create the baby?

Posted by: nachos | June 25, 2012 at 01:47 PM

Sure he touched, but he didn't look there, because then the baby would be born blind. (Nedarim 20a).

[David]

I had a frum child stop me on Shabbos to ask me to pull the plug from a sparking air conditioner, while the adults sat around the table. The fire station was one block down the road. As a secular jew, i wondered if saving a life superceded shabbos. Or the fact that they got me to do it was okay. it did not matter to them. i was always taught that saving a life was as important. I wondered if they would have allowed a fire to start.

Posted by: bostonborn | June 25, 2012 at 03:58 PM

And thus the totality of your Torah learning far exceeds theirs.

[ruthie]

again i'm rendered speechless

[Abracadabra]

June 25, 2012 at 01:24 PM

Shoshi - Well said!

[ah-pee-chorus]

i applaud the choice the father made. the less contact the baby has with him the better.

[PINK]

HE IS NOT ALLOWED TO TOUCH HIS WIFE IF THE WIFE IS ABOUT TO GIVE BIRTH!!! ACCORDING TO SOME POSKIM THAT APPLIES EVEN WHEN IT IS A MATTER OF LIFE OR DEATH...!!!!!

KUDOS TO THIS FELLOW!!

[WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar]

Even in the hospital, if the woman was hemorrhaging, and the baby was not getting any oxygen, and the doctors said she needed a C-section immediately, the frumma will not allow the doctors to intervene, and they must first call the rebbe to ask what to do.

[Radical Feminist]

This yet another reason of why I hate religion. The truth is this, the fear of blood, especially blood that is menstrual or related to child birth is so horrific to Harredi men, they would rather let a woman die in fron of them than help her (even their own wife and child). Blood phobia, is a failry profound phobia in this culture.

[rebitzman]

@Proton Soup

According to my rabbi, idiots always live long enough to reproduce.

[Yosef ben Matitya]

Obviously an am haaretz bal teshuva

not necessarily,
many rebbes are fools.
hence the expression 'chosid sheuyteh'.

[Jake]

Folks would learn a lot More by reading the vin comment section, besides it isnt filled with Jewish bigots.

[David]

HE IS NOT ALLOWED TO TOUCH HIS WIFE IF THE WIFE IS ABOUT TO GIVE BIRTH!!! ACCORDING TO SOME POSKIM THAT APPLIES EVEN WHEN IT IS A MATTER OF LIFE OR DEATH...!!!!!

KUDOS TO THIS FELLOW!!

Posted by: PINK | June 25, 2012 at 06:01 PM

That's ignorance and sorcery, not Judaism.

[PrettyBoyFloyd]

This article truly shows Shmarya's hatred toward all 'Haredim', this man didn't steal, molest, scam, cheat, rape anyone, yet, he's vilified by this midwest couch potato as a bad person.

[David]

This article truly shows Shmarya's hatred toward all 'Haredim', this man didn't steal, molest, scam, cheat, rape anyone, yet, he's vilified by this midwest couch potato as a bad person.

Posted by: PrettyBoyFloyd | June 25, 2012 at 06:53 PM

No, but he put the life of the baby at risk.

[Moe]

The poor guy was afraid that if he looks at 'Mukom ha'erva' the kid wold be blind like it says in shulchan aruch, and then he wouldn't be able to get a good shiduch... lol poor creatures.

[simple jew]

B"H

Ruthie

I have a feeling I am not the only one smiling that you are left speechless.

No hard feelings.... just telling you my first reaction to your post.

[Seymour]

Now we have a new category of goy

Delivery goy

[Wigmore]

If I recall correctly, the Gemara speaks of someone termed a "Chasid Shoteh," i.e. a pious fool.

The example is given of a man walking near a body of water. He hears a woman screaming for help because she's drowning. Jumping in to save her, however, would be mean being alone with a woman.

So he lets her drown.

[AztecQueen2000]

So, he can't touch or look at his wife "down there," while she's giving birth to his childbut he'll let a total stranger, one who (I assume) has no medical training, reach down and pull his kid out of the most private area of his wife's body.
So much for "family-oriented."

[othodox ppl have a strange logic]

the orthodox jew would not touch his wife but let a goy touch his wife .

i love the logic .

[Yoel Mechanic]

I'm with A. Nuran on this one. Panic is a far more plausible explanation.

[Jeff]

The comments made above confirm me in my opinion that these people should not be allowed to reproduce. They're holding back the progress of civilization and are a continuing drain on our limited resources.

There really ought to be laws prohibiting congenital imbeciles from breeding.

[under duress]

Seymour +1

[Bob Guthrie]

Posted by: PrettyBoyFloyd
This article truly shows Shmarya's hatred toward all 'Haredim'.

Uh, how do you extrapolate FM posting a news article about an Orthodox Jew unwilling to touch his birth giving wife for "Religious reasons" into "Aha!. Proof that Shmarya hates Ultra-Orthodox Haredim!"?.

Better lay of the Irish's Southern Comfort, skippy. Users don't let other users post stupid.

[Maskil]

Posted by: No Light | June 25, 2012 at 02:36 PM

No, impurity trumps touching one's own wife, but pikuach nefesh trumps laws of impurity. It is just that the barometer contains a certain irony. Ultimately, Posted by: Garnel Ironheart | June 25, 2012 at 01:40 PM summed it up well. However, at least here in Israel, the problem is not limited to Haredim but it is just as bad (if not worse) by Dati Leumi. They are allowed to make no decision of application of priority in halacha without their designated "expert" giving it a go-ahead. And these "experts" are a-o-kay with holding this level of control over the populace.

[BoruchGuthrie]

Phenomenal!

Only on FM can you find 50 comments concerning the actions of an Am Haaretz fool!

Most of us would just laugh and move on. The world is full of fools.

Don't blame anyone but the fools for their own foolish actions!

[BoruchGuthrie]

Even in the hospital, if the woman was hemorrhaging, and the baby was not getting any oxygen, and the doctors said she needed a C-section immediately, the frumma will not allow the doctors to intervene, and they must first call the rebbe to ask what to do.

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar | June 25, 2012 at 06:09 PM

Nonsense.

There is nothing Halachically suspect about a C-section.

[Maskil]

Re: C-section

It's a form of surgery, and surgery can require local or general anesthesia. General anasthesia has a certain element of risk. That's when hasidim would call to get approval even when the doctor's are giving an expert opinion.

A real misnaged would be concern for the fact that the c-section might involve undue cutting of the flesh to produce a wound, which is in conflict with one of the 613 precepts (it is prohibited to cause a flesh wound in one's self or someone else), and would seek authoritative proof that this case would be exempt from such violation.

[David]

A real misnaged would be concern for the fact that the c-section might involve undue cutting of the flesh to produce a wound, which is in conflict with one of the 613 precepts (it is prohibited to cause a flesh wound in one's self or someone else), and would seek authoritative proof that this case would be exempt from such violation.

Posted by: Maskil | June 26, 2012 at 05:40 AM

I think it's safe to assume that as long as we are not dealing with witch doctors but professionally trained Western doctors there will be no unecessary cutting whatsoever, just the bare mininum. There is no need to consult a rabbi, who would not be qualified to comment in any case. And if the Charedim knew the Halacha, they would not need to ask.

We are talking about scientifically-based medical procedures, not cutting of the flesh for the purpose of adornment as pagans once did (and some still do).

[WoolSilkCotton]

++BoruchGuthrie | June 26, 2012 at 05:22 AM++

Can't frumma trolls come up with original monikers? Are you so mentally limited that you can't even make up an original fake name?

You are completely ignorant about how the frumma behave in a medical emergency, as well as in Labor and Delivery. They are incapable of making any independent decision, and when an important decision arrises, they go into a state of panic. It is sad to see adults in this century in the USA acting the way they do.

No frumma will ever allow an unplanned C-section without calling the rebbe first, no matter how medically urgent the crisis at hand is.
It has nothing to do with risk of surgery or anesthesia or "cutting of flesh". It has to do with being utterly indecisive and incapable of making a decision without the rebbe. It also has to do with the woman feeling like a failure. Frumma women have told me that they were planning to have 15-20 children, and with a C-section you may be limited to 'only' about 8 or 9, because the frumma are afraid that they would then need a repeat C-section for future deliveries. Women who have a C-section are often considered a failure by their families.

Emergency C-sections are always delayed by the frumma until the rebbe can be contacted, even if the baby is not getting enough oxygen, or even if the mother is hemorrhaging. Nothing happens without the rebbe's approval. Woe be unto any frumma who dare to make an important decision without the rebbe's approval.

[Maskil]

It's actually the violation of the verse: (Deuteronomy 25:3) "Forty stripes he may give him and not exceed lest if he should exceed and beat him above these with many stripes then thy brother should seem vile unto thee," which covers any hitting or beating when not in this venue (punitive lashes), and by ancient tradition is measured by the point at which blood is shed.

Surely doctors will make an incision they feel necessary when there is another, more invasive (or inconvenient or riskier) procedure available, but to the Haredi it doesn't (or may not) take priority - but then again if the surgeon is a goy it may be another story. I'm not ruling, I'm putting WSC's comment in perspective, that to these people there are halachic concerns that require rabbinic and or mystic instruction to clarify - even when it is as clear as "if the woman was hemorrhaging, and the baby was not getting any oxygen, and the doctors said she needed a C-section immediately." There are acutal halachic factors to take into account, and the highly reliant (whether knowlegeable or not) will not allow medical (life-saving) interference until they have consulted their gurus.

[BoruchGuthrie]

No frumma will ever allow an unplanned C-section without calling the rebbe first, no matter how medically urgent the crisis at hand is.
....
Emergency C-sections are always delayed by the frumma until the rebbe can be contacted, even if the baby is not getting enough oxygen, or even if the mother is hemorrhaging. Nothing happens without the rebbe's approval. Woe be unto any frumma who dare to make an important decision without the rebbe's approval.

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | June 26, 2012 at 09:11 AM

Sweeping generalisations...and a load of turd, too.

I, too, can say any crap I want about a swathe of society. Doesn't make it any more accurate just because I say it.

(As an aside, quit using the word 'frumma' - your grammar is so damn annoying. If you are referrring to frum people, should either use 'the frum' or 'the frummas'.)

But anyway, 'frumma' indicates Orthodox/haredi. The Rebbe is a hasidic institution. Are you saying all orthodox/haredi call a Hassidic Rebbe for medical advice?

You are seriously confused.

[BoruchGuthrie]

Can't frumma trolls come up with original monikers? Are you so mentally limited that you can't even make up an original fake name?

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | June 26, 2012 at 09:11 AM

Yes, you are correct, of course. The level of intelligence required to concoct a fake name is vastly superior to borrowing someone else's. I must be mentally limited.

Well done, my friend. You take the prize for the weakest Shtech. And in a delicious irony, in doing so cast aspersions on your own intelligence!

If you must know, my choice was intentional. Bob Guthrie's posts have the dubious privilege of being the posts I detest the most on this site (along with Jeff's, of course). I thought maybe I could channel some of my hatred/anger away by aligning myself somewhat with him.

[Shmarya]

If you must know, my choice was intentional. Bob Guthrie's posts have the dubious privilege of being the posts I detest the most on this site (along with Jeff's, of course). I thought maybe I could channel some of my hatred/anger away by aligning myself somewhat with him.

Posted by: BoruchGuthrie | June 26, 2012 at 11:19 AM

Go back to using MoisheCohen or I'll ban you and delete all your comments.

No more warnings.

[seymour]

Posted by: BoruchGuthrie | June 26, 2012 at 05:10 AM

check out vin

[Pinny Gold]

And before you know it, you have this:
http://www.bhol.co.il/article.aspx?id=42079

[WoolSilkCotton]

MoisheCohen aka BoruchGuthrie, you know absolutely nothing except what your penis-breath frumma rebbe or frumma rabbi or frumma godol tells you.

You certainly know nothing about Labor and Delivery or anything else medical. And you obviously don't speak Yiddish, either.

[WoolSilkCotton]

MoisheCohen, whether you are haredi, hasidic, or uber-orthodox, it's all the same shit to me.

[dh]

Baruch aka Moishe @11:19..... so should we call you Adolf?

[Proton Soup]

@Proton Soup

According to my rabbi, idiots always live long enough to reproduce.

Posted by: rebitzman | June 25, 2012 at 06:14 PM

now i don't know if i am blessed or cursed. ;)

[David]

Women who have a C-section are often considered a failure by their families.

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | June 26, 2012 at 09:11 AM

So primitive! So shocking! It's like they're talking about a prize farm animal or racehorse.

[A. Nuran]

For fewk's sake, how did this get onto C-sections? An emergency C-section is emergency surgery, necessary to save the life of mother or child or both. An elective one would probably have the same halachic status as any other elective surgery.

[Bob Guthrie]

Posted by: BoruchGuthrie

Oh, how Cute! ^.^

I never seen this done before!. Actually, no. I have experienced the same on the Fundie forums I follow,... and the names: Bitch Guthrie, Boob Guthrie, ButtF***** Guthrie, ButtM***** Guthrie. Aaah, and now a Frummie counterpart. "I have no valid points, so I will make fun of his name!. It's a devious, brilliant plot that will show all users in this forum how intelligent I am!".

"If you must know, my choice was intentional. Bob Guthrie's posts have the dubious privilege of being the posts I detest the most on this site (along with Jeff's, of course). I thought maybe I could channel some of my hatred/anger away by aligning myself somewhat with him."

So much for sin's china, eh, Moishe?. That's a big "No No" in the Talmud. but, feh, you are an Extremist Haredim, so, the same as Fundies, very selective of the written word of G-d.

"Bob Guthrie's posts have the dubious privilege of being the posts I detest the most on this site."

Why, Mosh, I'm flattered!. It does indicate that exposing the Criminal side of the Extremist Haredim, knocking down your feeble attempts at apologizing for it, poo-pooing your ad nausem regurgitated talking points fed to you by the Rabbinate, correcting some of your chaps even on Talmud matters and quotes, and exposing the crudeness, disdain, and plain childish behavior of you lot against other users is working.

Burns you, doesn't, bubbe? >=)

Love this post by the way:

Posted by: Shmarya
"Go back to using MoisheCohen or I'll ban you and delete all your comments. No more warnings."

Owned. So much for "Plan A", Mosh =)

[WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar]

My previous posts do indeed refer to emergency C-sections, and the incredible stupidity displayed by the frumma in those situations.

The topic is idiotic decision making by frumma during a medical emergency.

On numerous topics that arise on VIN and CrownHeights.info, the frumma regulars there will always point out that you cannot go with common sense or logic, but must rely on what the holy rabbonim decide is the halacha. Halacha, according to them, is not necessarily based upon logic or common sense.

So if a doctor says you are hemorrhaging and your baby is in immediate grave danger, that's not good enough. You are not allowed to think for yourself. You must call your rebbe to make the decision for you.

[shosh]

Dear Shoshi,

1 - This individual was clearly ill-informed. (Does anyone know his mental capacity?)

2 - Every child would know that if one’s life is in danger (because of lack of food etc.), one may eat pork on Yom Kippur (if that is the only readily available food. If ones wife goes into labor on Shabbos, one is allowed to drive her himself to the hospital. (did you ever see the ultra orthodox hatzala drivers driving the ambulances on Yom Kippur?)

3 - There are Halachot that are clearly articulated in the Shulchan Aruch. If you have learned it, you know it and therefore do not have to ask a rav about it. (i.e. can I light a candle on Shabbat, can I drive a car on the second day of Pesach, if a clean ‘Basari’ pot, that was not used for a week came in contact with hot milk, is the mild permissible etc. etc.)

Then there are questions that come up, which are not clearly articulated in the Shulchan Aruch. If one wants to know how to act in these situations, one contacts a legitimate, practicing posek/rov and the rove will clarify how the halacha is applied in this specific situation.

[shosh]

WoolSilkCotton, regarding what you allege that religious Jews let their wife’s and babies remain in dangerous situations (where every minute counts) until they consult with their Rabbi is clearly false. You are clearly living in some other world.

[shosh]

Maskil, you write “A real misnaged would be concern for the fact that the c-section might involve undue cutting of the flesh to produce a wound, which is in conflict with one of the 613 precepts (it is prohibited to cause a flesh wound in one's self or someone else), and would seek authoritative proof that this case would be exempt from such violation.”

I don’t know where you got this idea from, but there is no such halacha. If an expert doctor decides that the procedure is medically necessary, there is no halachic prohibition (aside for some very few procedures (for example where it can cause castration…))

[Bob Guthrie]

Posted by: shosh

WoolSilkCotton, regarding what you allege that religious Jews let their wife’s and babies remain in dangerous situations (where every minute counts) until they consult with their Rabbi is clearly false. You are clearly living in some other world."

You known, sometimes you guys are so easy:

Haredi Woman Gives Birth At Home, Hides Baby Under Dress (http://tinyurl.com/7vpm3u8).

"At one point, three neighborhood rabbis were brought in to form a beit din, rabbinical court, in order to release the woman from her vow of silence. But even when that was done, she still would not speak or communicate. The baby was still under her dress, hidden from view.

[Bob Guthrie]

Posted by: shosh

"I don’t know where you got this idea from, but there is no such halacha. If an expert doctor decides that the procedure is medically necessary, there is no halachic prohibition (aside for some very few procedures (for example where it can cause castration…)

*Sigh* Yes, yes there is. Kitovet Kaaka, the Halacha prohibition to cut even one layer of skin.

Do you even bother to back up your posts with reference?.

[shosh]

Bob Guthrie,
@June 26, 2012 at 11:22 PM thank you for bringing me a story of a (sadly) deranged women. I sure hope someone is making sure that the rest of her children are properly taken care of…

@June 26, 2012 at 11:36 PM do you even know what “Kitovet Kaaka” is? You clearly don’t have any knowledge of halacha

[Bob Guthrie]

Posted by: shish

"do you even know what “Kitovet Kaaka” is? You clearly don’t have any knowledge of halacha."

The Kitovet Kaaka prohibition (Vayikra 19:28), related to the application of tattoos, how long it will last, the permissibility of a cut or wound, and how deep cutting or tearing into one's flesh is allowed without breaking Kitovet Kaaka (some Rabbis assert that even cutting the first layer [the epidermis, more specifically the stratum corneum] is already a violation of the prohibition).

The Rishonim have discussed this theme since the ancient times, with no concesus, except exceptions, which have reach to the present (are temporary tattoos a breach of Kitovet Kaaka?. How about open wounds for a diabetic patients' insulin device?. Tracheostomies?).

This biblical level prohibition was not imposed on slaves owned by Jews.

This is very, dry barebones version of it. More?.

[Bob Guthrie]

Addendum to Kitovet Kaaka.

"The Rishonim have discussed this theme since the ancient times, with no concesus, except exceptions, which have reach to the present."

This may sound that the "First Ones" are/were still around on the present. That honor is presently held by the leading Rabbis and Poskim of the Acharonim.

[WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar]

++shosh | June 26, 2012 at 11:08 PM++

You have never worked in a hospital where there are lots of frumma paitents. You are clueless and a liar.

Everything I said is 100% true each and every day in the hospital.

[shosh]

Bob Guthrie, Just by reading the chumash you will never know anything about halacha.

If you are interested in reaing up on this subject, here are some places to begin:

Talmud Makot pp 21a (also rashi & tosfot)
Rambam Avodat Kochovim 12,11
Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah 180

enjoy

[shosh]

WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar, I have children; many of my friend and family have children. For many (not all), the preferred choice is natural birth. But if there is a complication, and an EMERGENCY C-section is required (due to imminent danger (the baby being in distress, or the mothers health is at stake)) no one I know will hesitate to go ahead with it.

Why the need to accuse me of being a liar?

[Bob Guthrie]

Posted by: shosh
Bob Guthrie, Just by reading the chumash you will never know anything about Halacha.

So sorry that the Chumash is not good enough for you. I don't have any Sefer Torah scrolls at hand on my studio presently =/

[Chutzpah]

What a whore that woman was to let a stranger see her in such an immodest position! Her righteous husband should be zochur to do the mitzvah of giving a get and cast her out for her indiscretion.

[shosh]

Bob Guthrie | June 27, 2012 at 06:41 PM,

“Kitovet Kaaka” is a biblical prohibition against tattoos. Nothing more and nothing less. If you read the mefarshim, Talmud, rambam, shulchan aruch etc. you would surely be aware of it.

We don’t just make up interpretations for the chumash as we see fit. We have a very extensive oral tradition called “torah she’baal peh’.