We Won't Serve In The Army, No Matter What

"Forget about it, because there is no chance whatsoever that any kind of yeshiva boy will be heading to the draft office the day Israel’s government announces a haredi draft. It won’t happen, and we can assume that you too, deep in your heart, are aware of this fact. Let us be, because maybe the time has come to discover that you have no chance to contend with people whose agents of influence and cultural icons – that is, the rabbis – view enlistment as a colossal disaster and make it clear that this is simply unacceptable."

Haredi service? No way
Op-ed: Israel’s seculars should realize there is no chance to enlist ultra-Orthodox for army service
Eliezer Hayon • Ynet

The tension around the Plesner Committee, which is currently debating alternatives to the Tal Law for drafting haredim into the IDF, is growing. We are hearing various reports, bits of information and countless commentaries, and it appears that anyone who can offer an opinion does not hesitate to do so. Yet it seems that there is broad agreement on one issue: The affair is heading towards explosion.

So this is the time to tell you, dear seculars – forget about it. Let us be. Give it up.

Forget about it, because there is no chance whatsoever that any kind of yeshiva boy will be heading to the draft office the day Israel’s government announces a haredi draft. It won’t happen, and we can assume that you too, deep in your heart, are aware of this fact.

Let us be, because maybe the time has come to discover that you have no chance to contend with people whose agents of influence and cultural icons – that is, the rabbis – view enlistment as a colossal disaster and make it clear that this is simply unacceptable.

Give it up, because both you and we are fed up with the meaningless debate, which is charged with emotion and endless frustration, on the question of “why haredim do not serve in the army.”

After all, the most frank and appropriate answer to the above question is: “Because we’re not interested.” Why? It’s almost irrelevant. If we say that the color of the uniform contradicts our faith, which happens to rely on blue, it will sound to you no less rational that the belief that learning and reciting ancient texts serves the people of Israel to the same extent that a Navy commando in Lebanon does.

It is impossible to argue or to produce a debate vis-à-vis someone who cannot accept the above. And after all, any haredi politician who uses this argument merely outrages you more.

Even if there are influential bodies in the haredi world who deep inside believe that the time has indeed come for change on the draft question, they will not have the public courage to openly declare it. The taboo around this issue has become a social haredi norm, and anyone who deviates from it may pay a heavy personal price: A less successful matchmaking partner (or none at all) and hostile reactions in one’s neighborhood. It is difficult or impossible to see a haredi public figure willing to sacrifice everything on the IDF altar.

Accommodate us, but also help yourselves. After all you too, dear seculars, are aware that the day a decision is taken on the forced draft of haredim, hundreds of thousands of them will hit the streets in demonstrations that will make the social protest look like an elementary school reunion. All our police forces will be preoccupied with dispersing the haredi Torah soldiers and clearing their hats from town squares.

Moreover, the battle you want to lead us all into will has immediate sociological implications for the haredi world: The radical haredim will grow stronger, the ultra-Orthodox Eda Haredit faction will flourish, and the military mob of the Shabbat protests will take all of us on a journey of self-destruction that even the moderate and sane among us – who have recently started to speak up – won’t be able to object to.

If you are indeed truly interested in the contribution of haredi youngsters, please invest your energy where they can truly contribute. Fight the unemployment and general ignorance spreading among young haredim. Teach them English, statistics, computer applications, research methods, social sciences and exact sciences. Encourage young haredim to turn to academia.

Try to produce haredi scientists, doctors, physicists, psychologists and economists. They will offer a return on the investment. The intellectual ability of these young haredim can lead Israel’s society and economy to huge achievements.

Yet for the time being, for heaven’s sake, forget about the issue of drafting the haredim. Nobody will be gaining from it.

Comments

[effie]

Stop giving them money. It's not that hard. Stop all benefits and privileges of Israeli citizenship.

[Jeff]

If you are indeed truly interested in the contribution of haredi youngsters, please invest your energy where they can truly contribute. Fight the unemployment and general ignorance spreading among young haredim. Teach them English, statistics, computer applications, research methods, social sciences and exact sciences. Encourage young haredim to turn to academia.

Try to produce haredi scientists, doctors, physicists, psychologists and economists. They will offer a return on the investment. The intellectual ability of these young haredim can lead Israel’s society and economy to huge achievements.

Seriously? Is he actually so deluded as to think they want that?

I hope this ends in civil upheaval; I really do. I want a publicly proclaimed schism, and an end to their free ride.

Of course, the Modern Orthodox will then have to decide which side of the fence they're going to come down upon. Good; I've had it up to here with their waffling and indecision. It's become a way of life for them, as gaming the system has become a way of life for the penguins.

[Garnel Ironheart]

This does not have to be a huge confrontation. Simply pass a new law: unless you've served in the army or national service you are not entitled to any government money, including health care, welfare payments, etc. Make it a law that applies equally to everyone and let the chips fall.

[Jeff]

And I love this "Dear seculars" bullshit. My God, the condescension just drips from his keyboard - and I'm sure he's utterly clueless. They're taught from birth to think of us as slow, wayward children.

I cannot WAIT to see their society come crumbling down around them.

[Alter Kocker]

Simple-No welfare and no public subsidy for the yeshivas and kollels. Let them serve in the army and let them go out and get jobs. Why should hard-working Israeli seculars be burdened with a non-contributing faction of society that takes more than they give. (...and please do not tell me they contribute by torah learning)

[who knows]

What a hutzpah! He wants to reward Haredi refusal to serve with another batch of benefits - free university education and guaranteed jobs in academia to top it all.

Haredim trully don't know a concept of fair play.

Does he know how competitive it is to get a job in academia? Does he know how much sacrifice secular Israelis are going trough to serve in the army, then to attend university and then to gain employment and then, if one is very hardworking and very lucky, to get a job in academia?

It is beyond any hutzpah that I've ever seen in the secular world.

[Jerry]

About 30% of jewish births in Israel are haredi and about the same for arab births as well. So in about 18 years, over 60% of young men in Israel will be exempt from the draft not to mention poorly educated. My guess is that most of the "dear seculars" will have left the country leaving the haredi to fend for themselves. They better start praying harder now.

[effie]

They better start praying harder now.

I can see it now...the arabs will be invading Israel while the haredis lob their stock piles of dirty diapers at them.

[effie]

Oh, and loogies. The haredi are always good for spitting...

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

If someone refuses to report for military service, the authorities should locate his yeshiva or center of "learning" and demolish it. Then send the yeshivaleit to "West-Bankistan" for resettlement in a future Palestinian state.

[Yochanan Lavie]

What chareidim fail to realize that most "seculars" in Israel are somewhat traditional. They don't observe all the halachot, but they celebrate the holidays in some way, believe in God, think a Jewish identity is important, and many even keep some kind of kashrut in their homes. There are only a few seculars who are truly, ideologically, against religion in any form. But they are cultural elites who have bully pulpits. By condescending to, and attempting to marginalize, the traditionalist-secular majority, chareidim are unintentionally bringing them closer to the truly anti-religious. This is the opposite of kiruv.

[S.]

They can defund the yeshivas, but not let people starve or fester with diseases. That's not going to happen, nor is it a solution. Even as a game of chicken, or an attempt to shrink the size of Chareidi society, they can't play it with thousands of kids lives.

[John Nagle, Silicon Valley, CA]

I read that on Ynet. It's not going to work. The Knesset committee says that there will be criminal enforcement, and the IDF already has military police hunting draft dodgers.
(http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4227322,00.html).

When this is over, there will be fewer rabbis, but better ones.

[Jeff]

They can defund the yeshivas, but not let people starve or fester with diseases. That's not going to happen, nor is it a solution. Even as a game of chicken, or an attempt to shrink the size of Chareidi society, they can't play it with thousands of kids lives.

Posted by: S. | June 28, 2012 at 12:06 PM

What should be done, then? Israel can't go on in this fashion; it will be bankrupt within a generation. You realize, I hope, that the few dozen Haredim enrolled in technology courses as a matter of pursuing "parnassa" aren't indicative of any sort of liberalizing trend.

The government has been unwilling to act for decades, while the black hats continue to reproduce irresponsibly. Not only do they remain immune to any sort of compromise, they become more strident and reactive with each passing year. Last year, when one of their own MK's suggested a few of them might actually want to consider working, he received death threats and had to hire a bodyguard. This is how they respond to attempts at reasoned discourse.

What do you think should be done, Fred?

[JK2]

The author's call to "the dear seculars" to make investment in haredi youngsters surely refers only those youngsters with penises.

Continue the service exemption - for boys and men only. Make the investment in the girls and women, and see what happens to their society.

[who knows]

Even as a game of chicken, or an attempt to shrink the size of Chareidi society, they can't play it with thousands of kids lives.

Posted by: S. | June 28, 2012 at 12:06 PM

Child allowances don't work, because, even though they are intended solely for the kids, the parents use them as well.

The haredi parents, not some secular strangers must feed their kids. If the parents fail in their first responsibility of supporting their kids, then their parental rights should be taken away and kids should be taken away from irresponsible parents afflicting them with hunger for no other reason than adherence to cultish ideology and personal laziness.

[Jeff]

If the parents fail in their first responsibility of supporting their kids, then their parental rights should be taken away and kids should be taken away from irresponsible parents afflicting them with hunger for no other reason than adherence to cultish ideology and personal laziness.

That's how I feel about it. That entire way of life is a form of child abuse.

[Alexander]

I wonder how many of posters here have served in the Israeli army? How many are plain BSing around? I dont recall much americans in my Golani tour of three years, and three months evrey two years, its time for american Jews of all denominations to serve in Tzahal.

How many of you lost 15 friends in the hands of hizbullah? But I did.

The problem is not only the chareidim also are the seculars learning to be actors,painters, designers and so on, that also skip it, and they hide under the coat of hareidim.

[Korbendallas72]

If someone refuses to report for military service, the authorities should locate his yeshiva or center of "learning" and demolish it. Then send the yeshivaleit to "West-Bankistan" for resettlement in a future Palestinian state.
Posted by: Nigritude Ultramarine | June 28, 2012 at 12:02 PM

This is a fantastic idea, I bet they'd actually get along rather well with their new Arab neighbors. They could bond over their shared hatred of western civilization and the state of Israel.

By the way, you have the best nickname on this board.

[Korbendallas72]

I wonder how many of posters here have served in the Israeli army? How many are plain BSing around? I dont recall much americans in my Golani tour of three years, and three months evrey two years, its time for american Jews of all denominations to serve in Tzahal.

If you consider Haredi "study" as a form of national service, then every American who argues for the IDF is serving. We fight the ignorant hordes of leftist turds over here who seek Israel's destruction. Have you been to an American college campus recently? What do Haredim do except curse those who fight to protect their life as an ignorant breeder?

[S.]

>What should be done, then?

I don't know. I just know what won't be done - letting thousands of kids starve and get eaten by disease, which is what letting them slide into desperate poverty with no rescue will do. There's also too many to take away, so that's not a realistic possibility either. Not all problems have solutions.

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

"its time for american Jews of all denominations to serve in Tzahal."

No, I'm an American citizen. You have fun playing soldier at your house.

"How many of you lost 15 friends in the hands of hizbullah? But I did."

No one said it would be easy to kick people out of their yard.

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

By the way, you have the best nickname on this board.

Posted by: Korbendallas72 | June 28, 2012 at 01:37 PM

Thanks. I wish I could claim to be the originator.

[Jeff]

Not all problems have solutions.

Posted by: S. | June 28, 2012 at 02:00 PM

Well, that's it for Israel, then.

[Brian]

I don't want to sound like a broken record, but what would we rather have? Haredim who refuse to serve, or Haredim who serve, but refuse to obey their commanders when they're asked to control the settlers?

[Jeff]

I don't want to sound like a broken record, but what would we rather have? Haredim who refuse to serve, or Haredim who serve, but refuse to obey their commanders when they're asked to control the settlers?

Posted by: Brian | June 28, 2012 at 02:21 PM

Look - if they were to say, "You're right, we have been shirking our collective responsibility, and we should be contributing more, but you know we'd make lousy soldiers, plus there are issues of tznius that concern us - so how about you train us to serve in noncombatant capacities?" - I wouldn't have a problem with that. I suspect a lot of people would consider it a reasonable response. But you know damn well they aren't going to say that.

Instead, it's, "Gay in drerd! We're doing you a favor by studying Toyreh, and it's your privilege to support us while we do so!" Then they throw burning garbage cans.

This can no longer be tolerated.

[PrettyBoyFloyd]

If they won't serve, kick they're asses out. Every one of em'. It's the law of the land. They can all move to boro park an viliamsburg where there are no laws.
As for Alexander, good for you that you served your country, but attacking others for not doing so, makes you sound like Shmarya in heat.

[Seth]

No way will Israel jail thousands of its citizenry. No way, no how. What a spectacle that would be!

[S.]

>Well, that's it for Israel, then

Could be.

[Mike]

There is a fundamental problem with this whole article- the haredim have the burden of proof. If they can prove to me (which they can't) that their sitting in yeshivos and dodging taxes is as great as a defense to Israel than the courageous men and women fighting for their country then I wouldn't be so upset. People pointed out the unbelievable condescension and it's really true; the way he says things like "people who cannot accept the above are impossible to produce a debate with."

I do think it is a good idea to introduce secular study/academia into the Haredi community, but this is different. This is standing alongside your fellow countryman to protect the Jewish state.

[grandpa]

posted by: Nigritude Ultramarine

Just curious if u know my friend. They used to call him Rambo in Lebanon.

[God is not amused]

Cut off welfare, remove the children to state protective custody. Those that raise hell, jail them, put them on chain gang and let them clean the streets day and night and work on public projects. Time to put them in their place. They are on the dole. THEY HAVE NO SAY SO. THEY ARE BEGGARS THEY GET WHAT THEY ARE GIVEN.

[Barry]

So in about 18 years, over 60% of young men in Israel will be exempt from the draft

I sure hope that 18 years from now there would be peace and that the army would be a volunteer one!

[Yissy-CA]

Shmarya,
Consider that one of the biggest fears of the rabonim is that the bochruim will join the army and marry traditional/secular/MO Jewish women. As you already know they don't even view 90% of Israel as Jewish. This is silently about a battle over Mi yehudi.