Video: What Should Israel Do To Face The Haredi Challenge?

Haredim are geographically part of Israel but often act as if their only connection to the state they live in are the social services and welfare handouts they expect and demand from it. What can a secular society do to deal with a rapidly growing minority within it that refuses to bear the burdens of having a state, while at the same looting that state's coffers?

 

[Hat Tip: Joel Katz.]

Comments

[jancsibacsi]

The questions that is asked has one answer and the answer is a no brainer stop financing their lifestyle how simple can it get,if the state does not want to self destruct which is doing now then halt all monies and services to them will see how long they can survive on their own .

[5th Avenue]

Don't forget this is a reader supported website and gelt is good as long as its directed at Shmarya's pocket so he can continue as the epitome of a welfare recipient

[5th Avenue]

Does Shmarya care to respond to Z Atlas's allegation about money misappropriated from the charity for Ethiopians?

[Lubavitchers are Christians]

We're going to have the same question here in America very soon - what do we do with the 46.4 million people on food stamps living off the government who don't contribute to America.

One option for Israel is to do like Europe, and especially Greece, and that is to keep borrowing money to finance the welfare state, and then when the bills come due, blame the banks and the "international banksters" and Wall St.

[Lubavitchers are Christians]

Germany had the same question in the 1930's - what do we do with "them"?

It was called "The Jewish Question".

The solution to this very complex question was called "The Final Solution".

[Barry]

Seculars need to have more children :)

Seculars need to find leaders among them who can channel their energy and mount effective fronts both social and political. The main problem with the seculars is that they are part of the "I only care for myself" generation. Purely entrenched in the pursuit of physical pleasures for themselves and their family. There is nothing that binds them to the people around them. Yes, they may have minor circles like a bowling league or their poker buddies but there is no "achdus" among themselves. Their lives revolve more around what disco they will attend on Friday night than any larger issues.

[Shmarya]

Does Shmarya care to respond to Z Atlas's allegation about money misappropriated from the charity for Ethiopians?

Posted by: 5th Avenue | June 25, 2012 at 12:47 PM

You have a mental illness, Archie – one that Applegrad and Margulies will easily use against you.

Get therapy.

[MarkfromShortHills]

Re 5th Avenue: "so [Shmarya] can continue as the epitome of a welfare recipient"

Such vileness. Shmarya solicits contributions; he does not contend that he is entitled to money as of right. That is what the haredi do. Only the haredi have the nerve to demand from the state while denying any obligation to the state.

Re: Lubavitchers are Christians: "Germany had the same question in the 1930's - what do we do with "them"?"

Even more vile than 5th Avenue, quoted above. Jews in 1930's Germany were an integral part of the military, social, academic, and economic life of Germany. They actively served in the armed forces, they contributed to the arts, they served as professors in the best universities, and they owned large and successful business enterprises. The haredi hold themselves apart in all respects and their participation in politics is limited to making demands on the state for money while insisting that they be exempted from all service to the state.

The haredi may not eat pork, but they act like pigs.

[anti gestetner]

For starters they should all be tested on what they learn by a third party un associated with any yeshiva. All these guys should have to have their attendace taken several times daily by fingerprinting or retina scan. And if they feel thaat their learning is just as important or more that going to the army then they should be in the battle field away from their homes and failies just like their soilders are sacrificing themselves.

[Eric]

One of your better offerings.

Well done.

[Dovy]

I love how they claim to be protecting Israel with their learning and then close up the yeshivas for vacation during the recent Lebanon war!

[John Nagle, Silicon Valley, CA]

The first speaker mentions a "80% to 90% property tax exemption" for haredim? What's the basis for that?

[Alter Kocker]

This is what you get when you let the extremists in your society hold themselves separate from the society itself and demand that the majority serve the minority. Simply put; if you want to have a separate society be prepared to separate! The Haredim cannot possibly expect that the seculars will continue support as their numbers rise and their population continues to require services above and beyond their willingness and abiltiy to pay.

The Haredim will have to work, pay tax and serve in the military. Their schools will need to teach secular subjects like mathematics, history, science and geography. For a people that purport to be learning, they are totally ignorant of the world they inhabit. Certainly, there will be a fraction that will go off and follow a different path, but the majority will go forth and NOT spend all day in yeshiva. The majority will become self-sufficient and make Israel a better place.

[Shragi]

I was in Beit Shemesh for yeshiva for six months and I can say that the second speaker, R. Meyer Rubinstein is lying about the lack of demonstrations.
I was there in 2004 and, although they did try to limit and control the demonstrations so that they didn't end up like Yerushalyim they did have an annual demonstration on a Friday night in which the Rav of the city participated. They told the police in advance when it was going to take place so that there wouldn't be violence.
All this was only instituted after a few demonstrations had taken place which looked no different that the ones in Yerushalayim....

[Lubavitchers are Christians]

Posted by: MarkfromShortHills | June 25, 2012 at 01:02 PM

Mark,

You may be right that the Jews in Germany were mostly secular, and very different than today's haredim. And yet, the German's had a problem with them. I don't know what their prolem with the Jews was (maybe a "bankster" problem??), but it was called "the Jewish Question". And the answer to the question was "The Final Solution".

Today, people have a problem with the haredim.

Same Jewish people, different problem.

Let's see what the solution will be. Will it be the same solution today as then?

[Meir]

Answer: Israel's "dirty-little-secret" is that they are counting on Haredi births to maintain a Jewish majority in the land. Secular Israel can't counter Haredi political pressure until they exceed the Haredi birthrate.

[shanda]

There are two seperate problems here in the haredi community. One is simply about hareidim not wanting to join the army and two which is a direct cause in my opinion is haredims not working. But sucking off the government. In my opinion there is no reason why tthe government should not allow anyone from going to work so can support their families instead of sucking off from government subsidies and in turn bankrupting the system. Im willing to put money down thatt if the israeli govrnmnt desides tomorrow that anyone can go work with out prior army then you will have lots of kollels closing down. I also believe that once army is no longer mandatory for a work permit, you will have lots of charedim join the nachal charediarmy service. Because this way they will get a better paying job when leaving. All this leeching off he government is only happening because the israei government is not letting them work. Granted everyone should serve in the army but you can't force it on any one. And certaily

[Barry]

Lubavichers are Christians, my wife comes from a secular and reform German family. One of her grandfathers' great uncle even married out in 1875. His aged half Jewish children stayed in Germany and Denmark through out the war, keeping a low profile. Indeed a quarter Jewish grandchild even served in the Wehrmacht. They were protected in the communities they lived in because despite the Nazis, the locals saw them as assimilated Germans or at least not the enemies the Nazis painted them as being.

As for those members of her family who remained Jewish but secular, they all left Germany before 1939 for England, South America, Australia, Canada, Palestine, South Africa and the United States. They were all well educated and secular and were accepted as immigrants. No nation would wish to accept large number of Haredim as immigrants.

Even the Vichy French took steps to protect 'their Jews' who were assimilated good Frenchmen.

If a substantial and visible minority of Jews refuse to be part of the society they find themselves in, then they may face the same problems as those faced by Eastern European Jews in the 1940's and inflict these problems on the rest of Jewish society

[MarkfromShortHills]

Lubavitchers are Christians @ 1:53:

Sorry, but your analogy fails, and very badly. Most of the people who have problems with the haredim are Jews. Most non-Jews know nothing about them, or alternatively "know" them as quaint and harmless relics of "Fiddler on the Roof".

And, there are very good reasons to "have a problem" with the haredim. They are deficient in education, vile and indeed criminal in the way they tolerate pedophilia, and noxious in how they abuse the social systems they live in in the USA and Israel. Tax and welfare fraud? Ignoring building and fire codes? Welcome to Monsey and New Square.

Today's haredi deserve their reputation based on their behaviour. Yesterday's German Jews did not.

[Lubavitchers are Christians]

Today's haredi deserve their reputation based on their behaviour. Yesterday's German Jews did not.

Posted by: MarkfromShortHills | June 25, 2012 at 04:04 PM

That is your opinion, and you are entitled to it.

The Germans had their own opinion. I guess they're entitled to it as well.

Why is your opinion any better than a Nazi's opinion, pray tell?

Remember this, Mark from Short Hills, there are people today who can go on and on about how you Jews destroyed the economic system of the entire world, how you Jews own the banks and the federal reserve and Wall St, the Illuminati, Bernie Madoff, and how you all deserve to be annihilated. The things that are being said about the evil secular Jewish banksters (and what the Nazis said about the evil Jewish banksters at the time) is far, far worse than what we are saying about the haredim.

You, Mark from short hills, think the haredim are worse.

The Nazis (and many people today) think the banksters are worse.

Just some food for thought when you think about "Jewish Questions" and "Jewish Solutions".

[Lubavitchers are Christians]

Most of the people who have problems with the haredim are Jews

Posted by: MarkfromShortHills | June 25, 2012 at 04:04 PM

I understand that. My original question was, will the people having problems with the haredim (whoever they are) have the same solution as the Nazis who also had problems with the Jews?

Without a doubt, there are some Jews on this board who would love to see the same "Final Solution" for the haredim.

While these Jews are entitled to their opinion, they should (at the very minimum) give the benefit of the doubt to the Nazis for their "Final Solution" to the "Jewish Question" which obviously bothered them very much (for whatever reason they had to hate Jews as much as we hate haredim).

[fraudulent rabbis and poliltitions]

The reason why the rabbis prefer the tal law is because this way they can control their sheep. Once the israeli government takes the tal law away then thses rabbi lose control. They lose their yeshivos. They lose government subsidies. They lose honor. Which means they will become a nothing over night. They care more about their kovod then anything else. Its no wonder these rabbis want the tal law

[Rocky]

Luavitchers: The Germans were looking for a scapegoat after their defeat in WWI and the Jews conveniently served that purpose well before Hitler came to power. It didn't matter that 120,000 Jews served in the German armed forces and that 12,000 died in the service of their fatherland. Of the 400 or so high profile assassinations that took place in German cities after the war, most were committed against Jews. Right wingers blamed the collapse of the German mark in 1923 on Jewish speculators (bankers) such as the Rothschilds and the Warburgs, just as some Americans did not hesitate to blame the Great Recession on Goldman Sachs. In reality, the Germans could have avoided their currency collapse if the politicians had raised tax rates on those who could pay. Instead they cut them in 1921. Sound familiar? We are going through this same debate some 90 years later in the US. William Schirer has a discussion about the German currency collapse in his book "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" on pages 61 and 62.

If the US$ collpases, guess who is going to be blamed.

[MarkfromShortHills]

Lubavitchers are Christians @ 04:22:

"My original question was, will the people having problems with the haredim (whoever they are) have the same solution as the Nazis who also had problems with the Jews?"

Obviously not. Read their suggested solutions: cut off the money, require military service, insist that schooling include the basics of a secular education, etc. etc. And, while you are at it: punish - as by jailing - those who spit on little girls, who throw rocks and break windows of cars driven by women whose dress they do not like, etc. etc. ad nauseum.

In fact, Shmarya bans people who advocate violence and I imagine that anyone who posts "Kill the haredim" would be banned and the offending post would be removed.

There is no analogy between the attitudes of the readers of this blog and the attitudes of the Nazis, and you cannot fairly construct one.

[Lubavitchers are Christians]

Luavitchers: The Germans were looking for a scapegoat after their defeat in WWI and the Jews conveniently served that purpose well before Hitler came to power. It didn't matter that 120,000 Jews served in the German armed forces and that 12,000 died in the service of their fatherland. Of the 400 or so high profile assassinations that took place in German cities after the war, most were committed against Jews. Right wingers blamed the collapse of the German mark in 1923 on Jewish speculators (bankers) such as the Rothschilds and the Warburgs, just as some Americans did not hesitate to blame the Great Recession on Goldman Sachs. In reality, the Germans could have avoided their currency collapse if the politicians had raised tax rates on those who could pay. Instead they cut them in 1921. Sound familiar? We are going through this same debate some 90 years later in the US. William Schirer has a discussion about the German currency collapse in his book "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" on pages 61 and 62.

If the US$ collpases, guess who is going to be blamed.

Posted by: Rocky | June 25, 2012 at 05:07 PM

Rocky, you are 100% correct.

Except that the ones that are blaming the Great Recession on "Goldman" and the "banksters" are from the Occupy Wall St crowd. (and Louis Farrakhan of Nation of Islam.) And Obama who hasn't stopped blaming CEO's and banks and high earners for all the ills of the country.

The Tea Party, on the other hand, are blaming the Democrats who pushed banks to lend to minorities who couldn't afford to pay back the loans. Remember when Carter started the Community Reinvestment Act? Or remember when Clinton's Attorney General Janet Reno threatened banks that if they wouldn't lend to subprime borrowers, they would be sued for discrimination? Remember when George Bush tried to regulate Fannie and Freddie, but Chriss Dodd and Barnie Frank (a Jew) refused to allow any regulation of these two orgs. (By the way, Fannie and Freddie were at the time the only mortgage buyers who WERE not regulated by the government, and the Democrats refused to allow the Repubs from regulating them in the early 2000's, when things started getting out of hand with subprime mortgages. Fannie and Freddie were buying up all these exotic subprime mortgages, with implied taxpayer guarantees, without any regulation, and the Democrats refused all attempts to regulate them.)
In addition, the debt is being run up by none other than the Democrcats, while the Republicans are trying to stop it, unsuccessfully.

So, yes, the rhetoric is beginning to sound very eerily similar to Nazi Germany, but it is coming from the left, not from the right.

[Abracadabra]

Without a doubt, there are some Jews on this board who would love to see the same "Final Solution" for the haredim.

Lubavitchers are Christians - That has got to be the most ridiculous accusation I have ever read on this blog of Chareidi critics on this blog. No one here has ever called for rounding up and sending Chareidim to gas chambers and ovens, or killing them in cold blood. And you cannot prove that that was ever suggested as a "Solution" to the "Chareidi Problem", unless, of course, you take comments out of context.

What MIGHT have been suggested, is if the Chareidim themselves get voilent, to answer their violence with violence. That is a far cry from Hitler's "Final Solution."

Your comment is dispicable, and worse, it is grossly insulting to the memory of the 6-million Jews who were murdered in the Holocaust.

[Litvish]

The haredim have brought the hatred the world and Jews have for them on themselves.

As has been detailed here a thousand times they are dependent on the work of others, whom the revile and curse, to support them.

Section 8 housing, food stamps, welfare ( fraud, too), refusing to pay taxes ( and double books, often), refusing to serve in the IDF, and so many other things.

Without the medino and the USA which they sponge off of, they couldn't exist financially.

Where is their support from their mythical god?

No where to be found.

Hashem Yisborakh has no use for these avdei avoda zorah who daily dishonor him and his Torah with their tumei actions and words.

They richly deserve the misery and suffering which awaits them and those who support them.

[Rocky]

Lubavuitchers: The Community Reinvestment Act of 1977 did not bring the US financial system to its knees. It operated largely out of the public eye for decades. Financial deregulation in the late 1990's and the development of a Wild West mentality in the mortgage market were far more responsible for the sloppy loan underwriting that went on in the early 2000's. Not a week used to go by that I didn't get junk mail from a company called Ameriquest Mortgage trying to get me in financial trouble. I never took the bait, but many people did. The head of Ameriquest was a Holocaust survivor by the name of Roland Arnall. He became a billionaire by exploiting unsophisticated borrowers with deceptive mortgages. Arnall gave political donations to both parties but was especially generous to Republicans. George W. Bush rewarded him by nominating him to be Ambassador to the Netherlands in 2005. He served from 2006-08, when he resigned because of ill health and he died of cancer soon afterwards. In early 2006, Ameriquest was fined $325 million for massive deceptive practices in a settlement with 49 states and DC (see Wikipedia). Of course, Ameriquest was not the only sleazy company in the mortgage business. Countrywide Mortgage undoubtedly caused more financial damage and it was controlled by Angelo Mozilo, who was NOT Jewish.

We can't re-do history but we can learn from the mistakes of the past. It doesn't really matter whether Democrats or Republicans were more at fault for the country's past financial troubles. But I can just about guarantee you that if the US slides into a full blown financial crisis in the next few years, it will not be good for the Jews, whether you are religious or not.

[S M L]

"Even the Vichy French took steps to protect 'their Jews' who were assimilated good Frenchmen."

Let's keep our facts straight. The cowardly Vichy government sent about 75,000 Jews to the ovens. Only recently is the French railway system SNCF coming clean about its role in those murders. Read your history. Vichy makes for a particularly ugly chapter.

[Sheketz Aroiss]

Litvish, think about it. What do toyavaniks bring on themselves? Deflecting are you?

[Rocky]

SML: During WWII, the French made a distinction between Jews born in France (generally not deported) and those born in foreign countries (e.g. Poland). As grim as the deportation numbers seem, they were far lower in percentage terms than for Holland.

[SkepticalYid]

Posted by: Lubavitchers are Christians | June 25, 2012 at 05:57 PM

You're so predictable. You go off topic to spew right wing propaganda about domestic politics. It's quite pathetic.

[Bob Guthrie]

Posted by: Lubavitchers are Christians
Without a doubt, there are some Jews on this board who would love to see the same "Final Solution" for the haredim.

Yes, without a doubt, 100% backed with facts, no possible merging of error, you know that there are Jews (Wertvolle Juden) in this forum, a Failed Messiah Judenräte if you will, that would have no qualm to personally commit genocide against Jewish Haredim (what, no love for the goyim crowd?).

Congratulations, I don't know what is more disgusting, the fact that you firmly believe (without a doubt) that either there are people here that would murder/exterminate fellow Jews based on their religion, or the fact that you seem to not acknowledge that Haredim are also people from Judea.

FA members are murderous Jewish anti-semites. Welcome to Deremes territory, Lubavitchers are Christians, where your posts are graded by the beliefs you write down,... and any other point is rendered moot because of this belief.

[chicago sam]

I think Israel should offer to resettle the Haredim I eastern Europe, where they will be happy.

[Bob Guthrie]

Posted by: Lubavitchers are Christians
"Germany had the same question in the 1930's - what do we do with "them"?"

Cute. Trying to infer that discussions/post about the refusal of several thousand Haredim to serve in the IDF on FM by people in the FA site, not in accord to such behavior, equates to the "The Jewish Question",...

...While suggestions by this same users of how to deal with the refusal of "them" to serve in the defense of Israel equates to the "The Final Solution".

Do continue. There 's plenty of shoe to fit down that gullet.

[Bob Guthrie]

Lubavitchers are Christians

You know, for an Extremist American Conservative Haredi frumie, you do not follow the same beliefs of the Extremist American Conservative Christian Fundamentalists (fundies), which I deal with in another couple forums.

They are extremely very loyal to the idea of defending their country, have or are serving in the US Military, and encourage and are proud of other Fundies that do join. Religious and Military backgrounds, they are badges of Honor.

They have words for other US religions that don't wish to serve in the US Armed Forces because of their alternate beliefs, and "Patriot" is not one of the, Lubavitchers are Christians =/

[Max]

SkepticalYid, to be fair to LaC, it seems to me that Rocky was the one that brouoght in politics in America into this conversation, and LaC was defending his beliefs against Rocky's attacks on his fellow right wingers.

I'll have to read this thread again to be sure.

Better yet, I won't waste my time.

[Jeff]

Lubavitchers are Christians

You know, for an Extremist American Conservative Haredi frumie

That's the weird thing - he isn't Haredi. He isn't even Orthodox (at least, that's what he's told us). He despises Chabad, but is rabidly protective of the rest of the frum world. When I've pointed this out and asked him why, I haven't received anything remotely resembling a straight answer. He has some sort of axe to grind. The only thing I can figure is that he's a frum wannabe, and like so many secular Jews, has been brainwashed into thinking that they somehow represent "authentic" Judaism.

[Sheketz Aroiss]

Most non-orthodox think that way & Jeff's extreme bitterness won't change that

[Jeff]

Most non-orthodox think that way & Jeff's extreme bitterness won't change that

Posted by: Sheketz Aroiss | June 26, 2012 at 07:08 AM

Only because your leaders have been lying to them for more than half a century.

[Yochanan Lavie]

As someone who did not grow up Orthodox, I can say that most non-Orthodox do not revere the ultra-Orthodox. They have a residual Fiddler on the Roof nostalgia about them, but also find them a bit of an embarrassment and dislike their attitudes towards non-Orthodox Jews and other forms of Judaism.

[Jeff]

They have a residual Fiddler on the Roof nostalgia about them, but also find them a bit of an embarrassment and dislike their attitudes towards non-Orthodox Jews and other forms of Judaism.

Yes - better answer than mine.

Of course, the frummies are brainwashed into believing we're all jealous of them and lack the moral strength to become like them.

[Lubavitchers are Christians]

Jeff,

I am not orthodox, but I have alot of friends who are orthodox. I find them mostly to be nice good people. As a community, they have their issues, but I don't think they warrant so much hate.

How many times do I need to explain this.

I am not a defender of haredim. In fact, I come to this website precisely because I have an open mind, and want to hear the negative aspects of haredi judaism precisely to prevent me from ever becoming a haredi.

But I find myself disagreeing with alot of the spin on this website, and especially the blind hatred that I see here.

Frankly, the blind hatred prevents a healthy debate on many of these topics, and the false anti-haredi spin muddles the water for the honest criticism that should be discussed.

Lubavitchers, on the other hand, are Christians (Had to throw that in...)

[Jeff]

Posted by: Lubavitchers are Christians | June 26, 2012 at 10:14 AM

That's a clearer, more straightforward answer than you've given me in the past; however -

I am not a defender of haredim.

You don't seem to see yourself doing it.

In fact, I come to this website precisely because I have an open mind, and want to hear the negative aspects of haredi judaism precisely to prevent me from ever becoming a haredi.

That alone tells me a lot.

As for the "false anti-haredi spin", I maintain there isn't any. We know for a fact that Shmarya isn't making this stuff up.

[Lubavitchers are Christians]

As for the "false anti-haredi spin", I maintain there isn't any. We know for a fact that Shmarya isn't making this stuff up.

Posted by: Jeff | June 26, 2012 at 10:36 AM

Jeff,

There are many times when Shmarya gets the facts wrong. But I'm not even talking about facts. I'm talking about "spin".

I'll give you an example:

There is another thread here about the woman who had a taanit dibur and would not call emergency services when she went into labor.
This story is being used to spin a negativity about haredi judaism.
However, I don't see the negativity of the story. It's quite obvious (and even Seymour agreed - see his comment there) that this woman suffers from mental illness. I believe she suffers from an extreme case of OCD. I would venture to say that 99.99% of haredim know that the halacha demands that in a case of pikuach nefesh (danger to life) all 613 commandments are dropped (except for the three cardinal sins). This woman obviously isn't your normal haredi. The fact that there is this one mentally unstable haredi woman should in no way iinfer that haredim are mentally unstable. Will we say that all blacks are high on bath salts and will eat another human's face, just because there was one black man in Miami that was high on bath salts and ate another live human's face?

That said, now think about the other aspects of the story. The husband's rabbi, when he found out what happened, DID call emergency services. Hatzolah, which is haredi, DID immediately come to the house on Shabbos. When they realized that they were facing a mentally unstable woman, they called three rabbis to come down and take away her oath, and the rabbis DID come and try to convince her that she can send her baby to the hospital. When the rabbis realized that that wasn't working, they DID call the police to help, and the police DID come and force the woman to hand over her baby to the haredi Hatzolah members who immediately rushed the baby to the hospital. In addition, they discovered that home was dysfunctional.

So when I drop the automatic hatred that everyone else has to all things haredi, I see here instead a system that worked, and that even though the haredim were faced with a mentally unstable woman and family, their immediately responded to the situation in the best possible way.

To me, there is nothing negative about this story. But the underlying tone of the story as reported here, and the comments, show a virulently anti-haredi spin.

If we could just remove the blind hatred from the discussion, we would be able to have a serious debate about OCD and mental illness in the haredi community, which is no different than any other community.

[Jeff]

Of course she's unbalanced. The point, I believe, in Shmarya's posting the story is that this woman, like the women of the burqua cult, is the end result of Haredi ideology. It isn't just one example here and there. It's the whole package. That world is batcrap crazy.

If we could just remove the blind hatred from the discussion, we would be able to have a serious debate about OCD and mental illness in the haredi community, which is no different than any other community.

It's very different. You don't want to see it.

[Bob Guthrie]

Posted by: Jeff

You know, for an Extremist American Conservative Haredi frumie

That's the weird thing - he (Lubavitchers are Christians) isn't Haredi. He isn't even Orthodox (at least, that's what he's told us). He despises Chabad, but is rabidly protective of the rest of the frum world.

How... odd. Sooo, if we eliminate Orthodox and Ultra-Orthodox), is he a secular US jew?. a US goyim?.

Why the moniker "Lubavitchers are Christians?. Lubavitchers is part of the Chasidic movement. So, if he proclaims a distate for Chabad, is he equating a distaste for Christian too?.

An odd fellow.

[Bob Guthrie]

Posted by: Lubavitchers are Christians
"I am not orthodox, but I have alot of friends who are orthodox. I find them mostly to be nice good people. As a community, they have their issues, but I don't think they warrant so much hate."

Uh, good for you that you like the Orthodox, and "some of your best friends are Orthodox" angle, but there is no "hate" for the "Orthodox" community here as FM covers mostly the Extremist fringe of the Ultra-Orthodox Haredim

"I am not a defender of haredim. In fact, I come to this website precisely because I have an open mind, and want to hear the negative aspects of haredi judaism precisely to prevent me from ever becoming a haredi."

*Number of posts you criticizing the Haredim in this article: 0
*Number of posts you criticizing users criticizing the Haredim in this article: 5
*Number of posts you criticizing US welfare recipients: 1
*Number of posts you criticizing the US Government and the "left": 1
*Number of posts you criticizing Shmarya (ergo, the site): 2

You are not working very hard on the "I dislike the haredim" angle on this thread, are you?. You have only offered counter-arguments (religious or political) to all users not agreeing with you.

"But I find myself disagreeing with alot of the spin on this website, and especially the blind hatred that I see here."

Blind hatred?. Sin's china? (Hatred [noun], The feeling of one who hates; intense dislike or extreme aversion or hostility.)

*Number of posts by Secular/Orthodox/Goyim users that matches the definition of "Blind Hate": 0
*Number of posts by Secular/Orthodox/Goyim users that dislike the actions of the Haredim: 12
*Number of posts by Secular/Orthodox/Goyim users that suggests that any post calling for any kind of violence against the Haredim should be banned: 1

Show me an article that a Secular/Orthodox/Goyim user has expressed "Blind hate" against a Jewish Haredi, LaC.

"Frankly, the blind hatred prevents a healthy debate on many of these topics, and the false anti-haredi spin muddles the water for the honest criticism that should be discussed."

*Number of posts you criticizing users with dislike responses about the Haredim (most over the line): 3

-"Today, people have a problem with the haredim.
Same Jewish people, different problem.
Let's see what the solution will be. Will it be the same solution today as then?." Implying that users here regard the haredim problem the same as the German's "Jew Problem", and any suggestion, the German "Final Solution".

-"That is your opinion, and you are entitled to it.
The Germans had their own opinion. I guess they're entitled to it as well.
Why is your opinion any better than a Nazi's opinion, pray tell?
...
You, Mark from short hills, think the haredim are worse.
The Nazis (and many people today) think the banksters are worse.
Just some food for thought when you think about "Jewish Questions" and "Jewish Solutions". Implying that users here regard the haredim problem the same as the German's "Jew Problem", and any suggestion, the German "Final Solution", again.

-"I understand that. My original question was, will the people having problems with the haredim (whoever they are) have the same solution as the Nazis who also had problems with the Jews?

Without a doubt, there are some Jews on this board who would love to see the same "Final Solution" for the haredim." Without a doubt, accusing Jew users on this forum to use the Holocaust ultimate German "Final Solution", Genocide, on fellow Jews, the Haredim. No, this not a hateful comment, no.

I haven't read your posts in the past, but your posts in this thread indicate a clear dislike for any person that dare criticize the Haredim in any context, including Shmarya, ergo, the purpose of this site.

Stones and glass houses, LaC, stones and glass houses. Not a person full of simcha, are you?.