Reform, Conservative Are Poison, Chief Rabbi Says

During an emergency meeting called to try to find ways to stop the government from following through on its decision to recognize and fund Reform and Conservative rabbis, one of Israel’s state-funded haredi chief rabbis said non-Orthodox Jewish movements are “poisoning” the Jewish people.

Chief Rabbis Shlomo Amar, left, and Yona Metzger, right

Reform, Conservative Are Poison, Chief Rabbi Says
Shmarya Rosenberg • FailedMessiah.com

During an emergency meeting called to try to find ways to stop the government from following through on its decision to recognize and fund Reform and Conservative rabbis, one of Israel’s state-funded haredi chief rabbis said non-Orthodox Jewish movements are “poisoning” the Jewish people.

Around 150 rabbis attended today's meeting, which was called by Amar (please see Amar's letter posted below), as did leading haredi politicians including Minister of Housing and Construction Ariel Atias (Shas), Minister of Religious Services Yaakov Margi (Shas). Several Zionist Orthodox MKs also attended, the Jerusalem Post reported.

Non-Orthodox movements “are poisoning the well of holiness and taking people to nethermost pit,” Amar told the crowd and decried the “real halakhic dangers” in the state recognizing non-Orthodox rabbis.

“The most frightening thing, God forbid it should happen, is if we will need to make marriage records and that the Jewish people is split into two because we won’t be able to marry amongst each other any more. For this there is no cure,” Amar reportedly said, calling on the Prime Minister and the High Court of Justice “not to allow Judaism and Torah to be uprooted, [the Judaism and Torah] which has protected us throughout the generations and continues to do so today.”

Ashkenazi Chief Rabbi Yona Metzger denied claims made by many secular Israelis and by some Modern Orthodox rabbis, as well, that the state’s haredi-controlled rabbinate – which controls conversions, marriages and burials for all Jews in Israel regardless of religious affiliation of lack thereof – and Orthodoxy in general is not open and welcoming towards non-religious people.

“We are also sympathetic and friendly. Who among us does not want to do outreach [to secular Jews] and does not want to embrace and love all Jews?”, Metzger told the rabbis.

As Amar and Metzger spoke against them and their religious movements, several dozen Reform and Conservative Jews demonstrated outside, calling the emergency meeting “incitement and hateful.”

Rabbi Benny Lau, an influential moderate Zionist Orthodox rabbi, told reporters following the conference that “cursing the Reform and Conservative movements would not save one Jew from assimilation.”

“Delegitimization and war doesn’t work,” Lau reportedly said. “The best way to reach out to people not connected to Judaism is to do what is good and what is right, to be professional, to serve the community, to provide the best possible service and then people will choose those who are good in their eyes.”

Comments

[Abu Jihad Schneerson]

I love it that they NEVER say a word against racism,pedophilia,dishonesty and all the other things that make the orthodox world not exactly a 'light to the nations'.....

[seymour]

Torah] which has protected us throughout the generations and continues to do so today.

history says otherwise

[western jew]

The real threat comes from within.

These two rabbis are rabble rousers and not healing the rift in the Jewish wall of life.

[JK2]

“The most frightening thing, God forbid it should happen, is if we will need to make marriage records and that the Jewish people is split into two because we won’t be able to marry amongst each other any more. For this there is no cure,” Amar reportedly said ..."

What the hell does this mean? That non-Orthos are not Jews?

[Steven]

@ JK2

It means exactly what you fear. Given time, they will control aliyah. They might allow the law of return but will create a second class citizenship/passport for the non-approved.

It would be a given that my son would be in a heap of trouble because although my mother was brought up Orthodox, my parents were married by a Conservative rabbi. His mother's parents were married by a Reform rabbi and we were married by a Reconstructionist rabbi with a Conservative kituba.

And before the Orthodox here get too smug about it, they will go after the Modern Orthodox just as surely as they will go after the Conservative and Reform.

And then they will ask who performed your bris. When my son was born, a Modern Orthodox friend was very concerned who would do the bris because if he was not Orthodox, that might create shidduch problems if my son ever went Orthodox.

But they will gladly take money from any stripe of observance.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Steven you are correct. "First they came for the Reform, but I wasn't Reform so I did nothing..."

Also, superstition, rebbe worship, amulets and other forms of avodah zarah are kosher?

[Abu Jihad Schneerson]

Steven,excellently said!Chapeau!

[Abu Jihad Schneerson]

Yochanan Lavie,double chapeaux!Expecially for criticizing superstition and amulets,which are the ruin of Judaism and Jewish monotheism!

[Alter Kocker]

Dear Rabbi Amar:
I beg to differ sir, it is you and your belief system that drives a wedge through our people. Have you no understanding? Do you choose to recognise only those who walk, talk, look and dress like you (aside from those ceremonial robes). You choose to cut off a sizeable number of people who identify themselves as Jews. Your intolerance and will to believe only good will come from those like you and evil from everyone else is an abomination. If Judaism is to survive without self-destruction then the olive branch must be extended. For too long you have been the tail wagging the dog of Judaism and Israel. As this ends and Masorti and Reform are recognised, your tenuous hold on power decreases and that is the fear that drives you. When the non-orthodox streams demand that your followers become full citizens of Israel; working, paying taxes and serving in the armed forces, you will find that power will completely elude you as your adherents will discover the world that you and your brethren have hidden from them.

[Litvish]

Rabbinic Judaism at its finest.

If some kid wants to affiliate or learn something via any Jewish group then that is commendable.

I would rather they learn about being Jewish via educated, open minded, Israel-friendly groups then those who are ignorant of the modern world and science, not open minded and hate Israel except for what they can get from it.

[Jake]

The law of return requires you have one grandparent who is a Jew.

So people who are Gentiles per orthodox, conservative and some reform Jews ( ie Canadian,south American and European Reform movements have not accepted patrilineal descent) would be permitted to go on Aliyah.

The rabbis rightly concerned about a number of issues.

Like orthodox Judaism, Conservative Judaism does not accept patrilineal descent and they require a ghet or a annulment after a Jewish marriage.

Until the reform movement in the US accepted patrilineal descent in the 70s in response to their reality of intermarriage and floundering synagogues we all had one definition of who is a Jew.

My mother was not brought up in a orthodox home but nobody even questioned if she was a Jew. My parents were married by a well known orthodox rabbi without any issues.

Liberal Judaism totally changed the goal post of who is a Jew and now they are angry that others don't accept that. Intellectual dishonesty.

[Jake]

No matter how many masghichim and schoctim are present you can't make a schechted pig kosher.

Israel is unique.

A reform rabbi will s supervise and be a mashgiach at a military base, or a hospital?

The military rabbinate will have reform rabbis doing the embalming and the cremations while Orthodox rabbis will be in charge of burials?

Most Israelis are clueless about the issues. But 50% of Israelis are Sfardim and if they understood the issues the majority would tell you to stay with orthodoxy.

[anon]

@Jake: not true. What about mothers who converted with non-Orthodox streams? Or even under Modern Orthodox auspices? Or under some Orthodox bet din that another doesn't trust? You can't blame patrilineal descent for those things.

[RandomReader]

Their #1 concern: Keeping control as control is tied into money in Israel.
Their #2 concern: Divorce. If a religious divorce is deemed non-halachic by Othrodox standards then any off spring of the woman's second marriage will be deemed "mamzeirim" and not allowed to marry into Orthodox society for 10 generations. So, if this improperly divorced women's children or grandchildren want to become Orthodox they will find themselves in a lot of pain.
Their #3 concern: Conversions. It's well known that the Orthodox do not accept non-Orthodox conversions. Any children of an improperly converted woman will be deemed not Jewish even if they are raised Jewish. This one is key. Once the estimated number of halachic non-Jews surpasses the number of halachic Jews among the non-Orthodox, everyone from outside of Orthodoxy will be expected to prove their Jewish lineage if they want to be accepted as Jewish in an Orthodox community.

So while everyone may agree that the current system is not fair, the rabbinate sees their battle for control as being for their greater good to avert the eventual splitting of the Jewish nation.

Unfortunately, the rabbinate has acted with such corruption in recent years, and forced their radical views upon the masses, even where there is no possible justification, that they just don't have any credibility with the public anymore.

The rabbinate is at fault. There was a time when the support for Conservative and Reform movements in Israel was very small. Even when most of society was not Orthodox they were willing to defer to the Orthodox on halachic matters of grave importance. It's only been through the rabbinate's immoral behavior and their contemptuous dealings with society, that they have undermined their position.

[Office of the Chief Rabbi]

FREUD WAS HERE:
VIN, in caption, calls them "Chief Rabies."

http://www.vosizneias.com/108751/2012/06/26/jerusalem-rabbis-amar-metzger-reform-and-conservative-movements-poisoning-the-wells-of-holiness

We are amused.

[Jake]

Anon I did not blame patrilneal

descent for the issues you mentioned.
The orthodox rabbinate is undergoing changes as we speak.

There are two organizations in Israel Tzohar and the Rothchild foundation that prepare learned orthodox Zionist grab is to be communal rabbis and to actively serve the whole community at whatever level the person is at with out any pressure to make them orthodox.

As these rabbis become more prominent over time things will shift.
Rabbi Lau mentioned in that article is part of that group.

[Jake]

Random
Excellent explanation of the issues.
However I disagree with your conclusion.

Reform and Conservative Judaism have been active in Israel for more than 40 years. Even if there are 30 conservative synagogues they have barely made a dent in Israeli society. Reform has made less s a dent.
And their lack of success is not based on lack of state funding.

Many schules are to be found in bomb shelters. You don't need edifices.

[ah-pee-chorus]

Liberal Judaism totally changed the goal post of who is a Jew and now they are angry that others don't accept that. Intellectual dishonesty.

Posted by: Jake |

well since the torah went by patrilineal descent only until it was changed to matrilineal some time ago, its more valid to revert to patrilineal in keeping with the torahs authors' wishes . the reason for the change is no longer valid. not only are we no longer living in a time where rape of jewish women is commonplace, but even if we were, there is genetic testing available so we can be sure of who the father is. but since rabbinic judaism is completely impotent and afraid to use their brains, they stick with a matrilineal approach counter to 'god's instruction. and then they have the gall to assert that patrilineal jews arent really jewish. are they that dishonest?

[Jake]

Random

A persons actual status as a Jew has been kept record for decades already.

So a oleh of patrilineal descent is recorded in the ministry of interiors, population registry as being of patrilineal descent.

Everyone is registered, not just patrilineal Jews. But records are kept.

Non orthodox converts can make Aliyah , they will have on their identity cards that they are Jews but the population registry will have recorded that they had a non orthodox conversion.

The irony is that someone who converts a orthodox beit din which is not one of the RCA approved batei din can not make Aliyah.

I believe we will see changes in the orthodox conversion issues over time now that Rabbi Shmuel Goldin is the head of the RCA.

[anon]

this is total BS.

[anon]

WHAT is a valid conversion? You could fault each denomination... RCA (too modern?) Chabad (avoda zarah/idol worship?) Reform/Conservative (not al pi halacha?)
who, if anyone, can prove their really Jewish?

[anon]

personally i think charedi conversions are the most problematic but anyway.

[itchiemayer]

apc - the Rabbis decreed that the mother decides the religion and did so 2,000 or so years ago. It is valid Jewish law, and why would you be in favour of taking this exclusivity from the Jewish woman? Matrilineal descent is proof enough that women DO count in Torah Judaism. I am a Kohen and if I would create a child with a non-Jewish woman, that child is zero percent Jewish. It is the Jewish woman that has the privilege of determining the Jewishness of the child.

Seymour - you are so wrong. The Torah has protected the Jew for generations. We have no business even being in existence anymore, much less being so disproportionately vital to mankind relative to any other group. Alas, we're still alive and you're dead wrong.

I have to tell you that this site is becoming more and more blatantly anti-orthodox. It's a bunch of people rambling on and patting each other on the proverbial back. This is nothing personal, just an observation.

Do the orthodox often provide you with ammunition? Sadly, Yes they do. However, the Torah is truth, the people just are not following it. It does not make Torah sheker, not at all.

[anon]

itchiemayer -
i think this site has remained pretty consistent - and it's not anti-orthodox. this site is about ultra orthodoxy. the biggest problem i think most people have is the growing influence charedim are having over other jews and society in general. that includes their growing influence on politics in israel.

I hardly think that her being able to determine the child's Jewishness makes up for all the other inequalities, besides the woman doesn't even determine his kohan status.

[Abu Jihad Schneerson]

ah-pee-chorus said it perfectly right:the Torah clearly shows that Judaism was patrilinear in the good old days and therefore the rabbinic estabilishment,who claims to stick to the sources,has made a vital change in G-d's instructions!As a matter of fact,the only ones who follow the Tanakh 100% are the Karaites;they don't believe in the Mishnah,the Gemarah and,needless to say,the consider the Kaballah pure and unadultered pagan sorcery.

[Jeff]

Non-Orthodox movements “are poisoning the well of holiness and taking people to nethermost pit"

Oh, Jesus. Drama queen much?

The most frightening thing, God forbid it should happen, is if we will need to make marriage records and that the Jewish people is split into two because we won’t be able to marry amongst each other any more.

I have news for him - it's already happened. The schism has already taken place; we have two religions, now. As I keep saying, it's time to recognize this, and move on.

Of course, that also means we have no obligation to support these people financially - and, as Israel was founded by Liberal and secular Jews, it's a foregone conclusion that the state no longer has any sort of obligation of allegiance to Orthodoxy.

Cut 'em loose. Let them fend for themselves. We'll see how long they last.

[Isa]

From Steven
""""And before the Orthodox here get too smug about it, they will go after the Modern Orthodox just as surely as they will go after the Conservative and Reform.""""

It has already happened as per Modern Orthodoxy and conversions

[Jeff]

It has already happened as per Modern Orthodoxy and conversions

Posted by: Isa | June 27, 2012 at 06:19 AM

Indeed, many of the have greater contempt for Modern Orthodoxy than they do for the liberal denominations.

It's one of the reasons Modern Orthodox toadying to the Haredim is so sad.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Not that anyone asked, but I think we should accept either matrilinear or patrilinear Jews, as long as they identify as Jews exclusively. Paternity can now be proved (unlike 2000 yrs ago when the Romans were raping our women) and in reality religion usually follows the father, halacha and feminism notwithstanding. If your 1/2 Jewish and think of yourself as a Jew exclusively, you're in. That's what I think.

[Jeff]

If your 1/2 Jewish and think of yourself as a Jew exclusively, you're in. That's what I think.

Posted by: Yochanan Lavie | June 27, 2012 at 07:38 AM

For what my opinion is worth (which isn't much), I agree. They could find a way to legislate it if they wanted to; they've done it with everything else they've ever wanted (or not wanted) to do.

[PrettyBoyFloyd]

Of course their doctrine is poison, look here in the US the non religious are disappearing quicker then a cup of water in the desert. So now these heathens are going to the holy land to try and up their withering numbers, problem for them is, the Chareidim have allot more governmental power in Israel then here.

[Jeff]

Of course their doctrine is poison, look here in the US the non religious are disappearing quicker then a cup of water in the desert. So now these heathens are going to the holy land to try and up their withering numbers, problem for them is, the Chareidim have allot more governmental power in Israel then here.

Posted by: PrettyBoyFloyd | June 27, 2012 at 09:33 AM

Just keep telling yourself that as you drive yourselves further and further into the ground.

Your growing numbers, which you see as your greatest strength, are destroying you.

[rebitzman]

Allow me to translate the good rabbi's words: Thou shalt not covet the freedoms of the Reform and Conservative movements (though you believe in exactly the same things they do, you feel you MUST be superior).