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June 21, 2012

Rabbi Reuven Feinstein's Grandson Is Get Refuser

Weiss (Feinstein) Get refusal p2 6-13-2012Avrohom Meir Weiss, a grandson of the haredi 'gadol' Rabbi Reuven Feinstein (and a great-grandson of Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, the American haredi leader for decades of the 20th century) is a get refuser. And a demonstration against his get refusal is scheduled for Sunday.

Weiss (Feinstein) get refusal p1 6-13-2012
Weiss (Feinstein) Get refusal p2 6-13-2012
Weiss (Feinstein) get refusal p3 6-13-2012
The Jewish Press has more details about ORA.

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for real...
be great if someone could get down there with a camera - I think some footage of a get-refusal protest should be made available on line, eg. here. If a get refuser is unwilling to submit to compliance with beis din, then maybe the internet can do its thing.

The older I get, the more convinced I become that Orthodox Judaism has nothing to offer humanity. The sooner it - along with conservative Christianity and radical Islam - are consigned to the dustbin of history, the happier I will be.

Of course, I don't really see that happening. It's far more likely that in the (not too far off) end, these belief systems will destroy us as a species.

ORA, operating on the assumption that three wrongs make a right:
- archaic, sexist tradtion
- withholding request to grant archaic, sexist tradition so woman cannot remarry
- tradtional bullying and public humiliation to force grant of request for archaic, sexist tradition so woman can remarry.

I'd have so much more respect for these women if instead of compounding wrong upon wrong, they simply borrowed the line of Alfonso Bedoya and said, "get? We don't need no stinking get!"
And just remarried under civil law, spiting their ex's by living happily ever get-free after.

Posted by: Eli, what me messiah? | June 21, 2012 at 02:43 AM

And their kids from their second marriage who would be banned from marrying Jews as their kids will be etc., for 10 generations?

What about them?

Oh.

You didn't think about them, did you?

no actually i didn't and i accept the rebuke. it's a fair point to look at this from the point of view of the kids. They shouldn't be made to suffer consequences of their parents' wrong decisions.
Still, we've discussed this ad nauseum here. The practice itself is wrong. You pointed out some months ago that, historically, get-refusers were taken out in villages and beaten, humiliated, etc until they agreed to give the get, and that what ORA is doing is the same but less harmful. (correct me if I misremember.) If the practice was barbaric centuries ago, i don't see the sense of giving it a modern update.
But, damnit, you do have a point.

Mamzerut is not limited to ten generations (despite it looking that way in the Torah), it's permanent.

start at the beginning -- and do what the beit din in israel does when they are called in to marry a nonreligious couple. They perform the ceremony with a non kosher witness or do something in the ceremony so that it is actually null. Then if years down the road the pair get divorced or are adulterous) there is no problem with mamzeirus. If a husband goes missing in war (a real problem in Israel) again, no problem with agunot.

Children born of such a union are 100% kosher. But the men with the power dont like this idea or want the big secret to get out ...bc they think its really okay to have concubines (Rabeinu Gershom is 1,000 years old and expired) but dont want their wife to have same freedom (which technically would be allowed if one wants to stick to the letter of the law.)

Hey at least Dodelsons brother got a sefer out of all this.

The older I get, the more convinced I become that Orthodox Judaism has nothing to offer humanity.

Posted by: Jeff | June 21, 2012 at 01:41 AM

Yes of course!
It makes perfect sense to throw out the baby with the bathwater!

david,

jeff is saying that this is not the orthodox judaism of our forefathers in poland and before.

it has become completely distorted with these idiotic rabbis.

Don't understand,

If she believes in the Torah that a Man has all the power and control, so, how can she complain.
If She does not believe, than let her just go get married to anybody that loves her.

Since few languages (including Hebrew) have gender-neutral third-person pronouns, we are stuck with a situation in which a woman cannot initiate proceedings for her own freedoms. Instead of pulling a "five daughters of Tzelophechad" and allowing women to get their own gittin, we we wring our hands and do nothing.


Don't understand,

If she believes in the Torah that a Man has all the power and control, so, how can she complain.
If She does not believe, than let her just go get married to anybody that loves her.

Posted by: Dovid | June 21, 2012 at 08:09 AM

Typical haredi troll.

Process: HALAKHA – the Jewish law you give lip service to but don't really follow – is full of examples where men refuse to give gets and are condemned for it.

Further, those sources talk about the wives of those get refusers being chained and their lives ruined.

And the older of those sources order batei din, religious courts, to beat the husbands until they grant the gets.

The common thread here is that halakha empathizes with the chained women.

Flash forward to the behavior of haredi rabbis today and the trolls – like you – who openly or clandestinely shill for them and what you see is the exact opposite behavior. The women are treated like crap and the men who abuse them are not.

Now toddle off.

Having the signature of Rav Nota Greenblatt, shlita, adds significant weight to this document. He is a tremendous person, not to mention that he wrote the get for my divorce, and for which I am eternally grateful. He is a Gaon when it comes to matters of gittin.

Dovid, I agree with respect to the divorcing couple. If you see the get as a chain, it is not to the marriage but to the religious belief.
But I hadn't really "processed" the impact on her future children.
Why make a future child mamzer? My antipathy towards the rule is in conflict with my sympathy for an innocent third party.
But I still don't like these public shaming/humiliation events that ORA puts on. The beit dins should be able to come up with more human solutions for nullifying marriages, as they do when husbands go MIA in the IDF.
I think there is also precedence - in Israel at least - of suing a refuser for damages.

I don't see what the issue here is. On the beth Din papers they state that he went to court, so i guess he is not giving a get untill the case is resolved in the courts.I dont see how that is a problem. A legal divorce is also only usuelly only given once the case is resolved.

You people don’t understand the inside from this. The case here is Kotler Vs. Feinstein. She refused to let see the kids since they got separated. Her family has a lot of money and is part of the Kotler family which is very powerful in Lakewood so most botai dinim were automatically biased (read money) against him. His only choice was to go to court. Now that he is in court, he is waiting for the case to be settled in court and have a custody agreement then he will give a Get.

Avrohom Meir Weiss and Mordecai Tendler are cousins. Lovely family.

Tendler was expecting to get a court ruling in December 2011 for "improper dismissal" (yeah, right) from his shul. Anyone know what happened with that?

Wasn't R' Malkiel Kotler first married to a Feinstein

Why don't the ORA people demonstrate in front of rabbi Feinstein's home ?
Certainly he could go along way in convincing his grand son to grant a get.
I would also like to see the results of rpevious demonstartaions. Were any gittin in fact resolved or facilitated because of ORS's demonstartions or are these demonstartions useful PR expresions.

There are two sides to every story especially when it comes to something as messy as divorce. I certainly share the distaste for ruining her life by withholding the get, but if he believes she'll never let him see the child again, I understand why he's using the only tool he has. (Don't know the facts, just speculating)

Jeff don't you realize that the beit din fighting this Weiss guy is ultra orthodox and they are upset at him because he is "REFUSING" to give a get!!!!!! Now you proved that you are biased and hate Hareidim no matter what they do or say! Go get a life

This is rabbinic bullshit.

When facing a crazy wife wanting a ghet I informed the rabbis that rav Moshe Feinstein ruled that giving a ghet in the united states before a civil divorce decree is not required. They agreed with me.

Many American divorces go on for years.

Their is a video floating around of rav herschel schacter talking about the corruption of the beit din system in the United States.

The beit din is complaining that he went to a civil court. Sorry rabbis that is where American marriages are dissolved.

Wait till the civil proceedings are over and then deal with the ghet.

You also find somewhere on the Internet rabbi be hover writing about his experience being on a zabla beit din. He was horrified with what he was a party to.

Don't be impressed by the rabbinic letters.

I had all sorts of people coming after me starting 17 days after my wife told me she wanted a divorce.

Only thing is my wife was lieing left and right to the people.
I had a well known female attorney who does good work for women who were agunot call me. Told me all t,he nasty things that would be done if I didn't give my wife a ghet.

Then I asked her if. She knew how long I had known my wife wanted a divorce. She told me she didn't know. When I told her 17 days she went silent Then she told me I should think about it and she would call me back in a week. She never called back.

Two sides to every story folks.

Now my wife may end up facing felony charges.

Just saying

1. I have lived in Israel for over a decade and never saw a rabbi intentionally make a mistake so they can retroactively invalidate a wedding.

2. Don't know what your referring re a woman having the same right as a man vis a vis pilegesh.

A married woman was never permitted to have a pilegesh. Even before rabbeinu Gershons takanah.

By definition a relationship of pilegesh requires a woman out of her free will to be involved.

Mitch from Lakewood is either lying or misinformed about several things.
A)"She refused to let see the kids since they got separated"
Truth: One child, less than 3 years old, whom she has no problem with having a normal custody agreement with. Problem is that this Dude, like Friedman in the Freidman-Epstein case, wants the custody agreement to be all his way, otherwise he won't give a Get, hence her aguna status.
B)"Her family has a lot of money and is part of the Kotler family which is very powerful in Lakewood"
Truth: While it is true that the Kotler Family has lots of power in Lakewood, saying that their cousins therefore have lots of money and are powerful is a stretch. Most people in Lakewood can't tell you what a Dodelson is, much less if they are powerfuland regarding money,and we all know that Reuven Feinstein walked off with the lion share of the Tropper/EJF money, leaving him with a sizable monetary advantage.
C) "...which is very powerful in Lakewood so most botai dinim were automatically biased (read money) against him. His only choice was to go to court."
Truth: Mechon Lehoraah is hardly a Lakewood Beis Din, and commands universal respect and has stood up to the Kotlers on many occasions.

She doesn't need a ghet now.

She legally can't remarry until she has a civil divorce.

In NY if a person only has a religious ceremony performed by someone who is permitted to officiate it is deemed a civil marriage even without a marriage license.

If she is still civly married and represents herself as married to someone else she is committing bigamy even. If not married.

So no need for a ghet now unless she wants to screw around which I doubt.

Why didn't Malkiel Kotler give his first wife a Get that would be kosher according to the shitos of her family.
Why doesn't this organization organize a demonstration in around Malkiel's house. And what about the phony heter mai'ah rabanan that he used which was predated and ignored the fact that his wife told the bais din that he was willing to go to a din torah.
kol haposail bimumu hu posail.
And considering the fact that the person he now signed against was related to the first wife who he abandoned, had he had any brains he would have stayed out of this case person he now signed the seruv against.
We will refrain at this point from discussing his recording about molestation in lakewood and his efforts to protect vhe molestors and the campaign he has led against the victims and their families.
Malkiel, if you know what good for you, you'll crawl behind a big rock and do us a favor and not come out. We wonder of the people in lakewood who are not allowed to use the internet will, biruach kodsham, respond to deny the truths that we have stated. A hypocrite is a hypocrite is a hypocrite.
I wonder if the husband had been a lubavitcher, who according to malkiel are not part of klal yisroel, if he would have to give a get.

To "you cant handle the truth" and "mitch".
Even if kotler owns some beis din in monsey which sounds absurd, i have a hard time believing that lakewood now infiltrated YU and bullied rav shechter and rav willig. ive never seen people from opposite ends of judaism get together on 1 cause like this. WOW. shows you that Lakewood and YU put aside partisan politics to do the right thing. some people just dont want to believe the truth

Why doesnt she just have someone snuff him out if he refuses to cooperate?

Why wont he give her a get? Its not as if he can move on without one.

Jacob.
That's exactly my point. Thank you.

Im not gunna sit here and argue with yout lies and twists. I'll just say one thing. Dont you agree that if they are in court fighting it out, he should wait untill he gets the civil divorce to give a GET?

jacob, obviously you have no idea how this Beth dinim work. Most of them are corrupt and run mafia style organizations. And yes, for the right price they will all work together MO, chassidish and litvish. They all like money and power the same way.

mitch- funny because rav shechter spends his time fighting against bottai din corruption-there are interviews from rav shechter available online- but who in judaism is honest? just you? and you believe that if you turn to beis din your wrong and if you go to court your right?

Jacob, what i said is, is that if its court rigt now, he has a legit reason to hold back untill its resolved in court and he has his civil divorce.

Mitch, so your off your beit din rant. Even if it would be legit to wait for a civil devorce, weiss has stated in and out of court that he's not giving a get until all his financial custody and other demands are met (weiss already has the child twice a week and every other weekend for three days but wants at least fifty fifty custody

Jacob

Schachter and willg were seeking greater status from Israeli charade leaders.
Thus several years ago when the RCA was going right wing they kowtowed to to the Israeli chief rabbinate re conversions. What a screw up that has caused on who is a legitimate orthodox convert.

Jacob rabbis are people foremost like everyone they ave egos and opinions desires and goals. But it doesn't mean what they say is right, correct or should be followed.
Few have succeeded ego abnegation. Even the humblest can take a lot of pride in his humbleness.

Rav schachter is going trying to improve bate din? Good reason to go to civili court.

Jake-wasnt feinstein involved in conversions with that whole tropper scandal?

This is Weiss who works for Artscroll, who translated the Bava Batra. He had a strange yeshiva in Staten Island for weird people which closed down a year or two ago.He must have one of the world's most abusive personalities.

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