Is Hebrew National Really Kosher?

Hebrew National scandal part #7: What do we really know about Hebrew National's kosher status?

Briefly, this is what I believe we now know:

1. The class action suit against Hebrew National, filed by consumers  who do not keep kosher, many of whom appear to be non-Jews, is based on one premise – that the beef used in Hebrew National  products is not "100% kosher as defined by the most stringent Jews who follow Orthodox law."

2. It attempts to prove this by citing anonymous allegations of kashrut violations at slaughterhouses in which AER Services, Inc. acts as a contractor for Hebrew National and Triangle-K Kosher, slaughtering and processing beef.

3. AER Services, Inc.'s president Shlomoh Ben-David and Triangle-K's head Rabbi Aryeh Ralbag blame these anonymous allegations on former AER employees fired for cause.

4. One such former employee, Moshe Git, filed a lawsuit against AER. Git lost the suit and had a motion for a new trial rejected. (Please see the judge's ruling posted below.) The judge found Git was negligent when, fearing that halal non-kosher slaughter had been been mixed with the last small amount of kosher slaughter, Git left the South Saint Paul plant for a three day weekend, returning the morning after it with the unreasonable expectation that he could find the mixed up sides of beef and tag them all as non-kosher. Git wasn't able to find the suspect beef, so he told plant management all the beef produced on the previous working day was to be marked non-kosher, even though Git lacked the authority to do so. The plant followed Git's instruction, not knowing that it was unauthorized and not knowing that Ralbag was in the middle of investigating the mix up. Ralbag – unaware the meat was all now labeled non-kosher –ruled shortly after that the meat could, in fact, be sold as kosher.Git's behavior  cost the plant and AER a huge amount of money, and it got Git fired. (See the lawsuit attached below.)

5. Git's lawsuit contains the primary allegations used by the class action lawsuit.

6. Ralbag apparently ruled that the majority of animals slaughtered that day were definitely kosher. Therefore the halakhic principle of rob, majority came into play and all the suspect beef was therefore kosher. The Shulkhan Arukh not only rules this way, but its commenters demand that a person in this situation eat some of the suspect beef to prove that he accepts the halakha.

7. The class action's attorneys appear to be unaware of that.

8. I called Git a couple days ago. He would not comment on the class action or on whether or not he is behind it.

9. Git has a law degree and is a frequent columnist for the American Jewish World, the paper that broke the news of the class action suit several weeks after it was filed.

10. Allegations of tax fraud made in the class action against AER were denied by AER's president in an interview with me last week.

11. But Shlomoh Ben-David promised to show me documents to back up his claim that the cash payments to AER employees via their families in Israel as an undeclared part of their pay were legal. He never did, despite my reminders to him and a request I made to his attorney.

12. AER also claimed that it did not sell meat to Hebrew National or Triangle-K. But the Git lawsuit notes that:

The plaintiff is Git. The defendant is AER. This means AER has a stake or gets a commission on the amount of kosher meat it produces.

13. I asked Rabbi Ralbag about the kosher status of the pasteurization of meat before soaking and salting and the a question about stunning animals immediately after the schochet finishes slaughter. Ralbag did not respond in any way or answer the questions.

14. Both AER and Triangle-K have threatened to sue anyone they claim has defamed them.

15. AER sent a draft of a defamation suit to the AJW earlier this week.

So, here's what I think.

Ralbag has a well deserved reputation for being a thug.

AER claims to hold by halakha, Jewish law, but threatened to sue the AJW without citing any permit to do so given by a recognized beit din that is not a part of this scandal – itself a violation of Jewish law.

Based on the information we now have, there is no way to say that Hebrew National is treife, or that the meat it produces is not 100% kosher. Instead, Hebrew National is non-glatt meat, fully kosher unless and until proven otherwise.

But that does not clear the behavior of Ralbag, who sent me a statement on the scandal for publication but who would not answer the two questions I sent back in response to it.

And it doesn't clear AER.

Both Ralbag and Ben-David need to be completely transparent.

Until they are, the cloud of this scandal cannot be fully lifted from them – or from Hebrew National.

The Git v. AER lawsuit as a PDF file:

Download Moshe Gitt v AER Services, Inc

Rejection of Git's Motion For A New Trial:

Download Git Motion For New Trial Denied

The first version of this post incorrectly stated that Moshe Git lost his appeal. In fact, the appeal has not yet been heard. What Git did lose was a bid for a new trial. That rejection is posted immediately above as a PDF file.

Comments

[Rose]

Is Hebrew National Really Kosher?

If its not glatt I will not eat it so for all practical purposes it is not kosher. To me that is the definition of something being kosher. The fact that the person down the street will eat it and he/she "calls" himself/herself Jewish is immaterial.

[Yerachmiel Lopin]

Rose, I usually don't trash commenters as ignorant. But in your case I will make an exception. It isn't personal. I don't know you from anyone else. However you exemplify a kind of amaratzus (ignorance) common in the frum world. Halachah is clear, kosher is what halachah says. Ordinarily individuals or even communities can take on chumros (stringencies) but they can not declare the ordinary standard unkosher. So, if you declare that you do not trust Ralbag/Triangle K, that is fine. If you say that you only eat glatt, go right ahead and enrich some rabbonim and feel righteous. But you do not get to redefine kashrus to match your chumros. By your redifinition many of the gedolim of the previous generations knowingly ate food that was not kosher. Is that your position?

[dlz]

Rose:
The fact that you hold yourself to a higher standard and eat only glatt, does not mean that non-glatt is not kosher. Until maybe fifty years ago most Ashkenazi Jews, no matter how religious they were, ate non-glatt meat. The definition of "kosher" is what is written in the Shulchan Aruch and it's commentaries.

[Yerachmiel Lopin]

Or, Rose, are you saying that halachah changes over time. If so you are contradicting one of the tenets of daas torah. That is fine by me, but is it OK with you?

[seymour]

stunning animals immediately after the schochet finishes slaughter.

why should that be a problem

[Yochanan Lavie]

Yerachmiel: Excellent rebuttal of a butt head.

I eat HN because I do not believe in the glatt chumra. But if it turns out not be reliably kosher at all, that's another story. Ralbag's personality aside, I think this is a vendetta by an individual with an axe to grind. I'll keep eating it until I and unless I hear otherwise.

[seymour]

Is Hebrew National Really Kosher?

If its not glatt I will not eat it so for all practical purposes it is not kosher. To me that is the definition of something being kosher. The fact that the person down the street will eat it and he/she "calls" himself/herself Jewish is immaterial.

what hescher do you eat?

If its not the hesher that I trust I will not eat it so for all practical purposes it is not kosher. The fact that you will eat something without the hescher that I trust and you say you are Jewish is immaterial to me.

Posted by: Rose | June 22, 2012 at 08:57 AM

[seymour]

Is Hebrew National Really Kosher?

If its not glatt I will not eat it so for all practical purposes it is not kosher. To me that is the definition of something being kosher. The fact that the person down the street will eat it and he/she "calls" himself/herself Jewish is immaterial.

Posted by: Rose | June 22, 2012 at 08:57 AM

Rose, what hescher do you eat?

If its not the hesher that I trust I will not eat it so for all practical purposes it is not kosher. The fact that you will eat something without the hescher that I trust and you say you are Jewish is immaterial to me.

[Rebitzman]

Kosher is kosher. "Glatt" has become nothing more than a marketing tool intended to jack up the price of food that is already beyond expensive. In the past couple of years I've seen Glatt chicken, Glatt fish.........

I know for fact that at least one supplier supplies the same meat regardless if Glatt is requested or not - only difference being the price.

I don't eat a lot of hot dogs, but know and trust the rabbis who did and do the actual inspections and would eat HN if served. They are kosher.

[Bassy the Haredi Slayer]

Yes, Rose is a typical ignorant BT! they just became observant and now they are posek hador

[seymour]

Yes, Rose is a typical ignorant BT! they just became observant and now they are posek hador

Posted by: Bassy the Haredi Slayer | June 22, 2012 at 09:56 AM

is she a BT or maybe FFB? FFB are many time more ignorant than BT

[FirstGenerationBavarianAmerican]

WABC-TV, New York City, did do a story on this lawsuit on June 19th:
http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/video?id=8707243

Note the stock footage of the outside of a ConAgra plant, while the suit claims the meat is slaughtered at plants owned by American Foods Group.

Hebrew National hot dogs are used as loss leaders in the New York area. Wegman's was selling them for $1.99 a pack last week and is charging $2.99 a pack this week. The people who buy them who do not keep kosher care more about the spice mixture and the texture than anything else. Or they perceive that kosher is better food. OU even uses that pitch to get food manufacturers to sign up for certification services.

This lawsuit seems aimed at extracting a settlement. News stories like WABC's will cause some people who don't keep kosher to buy other brands of hot dogs, such as Sabrett and Nathan's, which taste similar. So I can appreciate AER and Triangle K wanting to sue or at least intimidate anyone who wants to shake them down.

Now, this post mentions an individual who
1. has a law degree
2. was one of the people involved in the production of Hebrew National products
3. writes for the newspaper that first publicized the filing of the lawsuit against Conagra.
Maybe the AJW has the goods on ConAgra like the Washington Post had the goods on Nixon and his cronies. But they haven't printed it yet.

Pass me a Abeles and Heymann some with their deli-style mustard.

[FirstGenerationBavarianAmerican]

Forgot that these types of shakedowns require getting the media to publicize them. Who reads court dockets all day long?

[Rose]

If you say that you only eat glatt, go right ahead and enrich some rabbonim and feel righteous. But you do not get to redefine kashrus to match your chumros. By your redifinition many of the gedolim of the previous generations knowingly ate food that was not kosher. Is that your position?

Posted by: Yerachmiel Lopin | June 22, 2012 at 09:16 AM

My point clearly was that "kosher" like "beauty" is in the eye of the beholder so the question "Is Hebrew National Really Kosher?" is rather silly.

[itchiemayer]

35 years ago in St. Louis, I only knew of two glatt families since it wasn't readily available and had to be shipped in from the NYC. Now, I don't know of any in the orthodox community of St. Louis that do not eat only glatt. I'm sure there must be a few, but none that I know of. That being said, if I went to a relative's house and they had prepared for me a HN hot dog, and had gone out of their way to see that all areas of Kashrus were observed in the preparation of said hot dog, then I would eat it just as I would have done like most everyone else 35 years ago. I would not, however, bring them into my home since glatt dogs are readily available.

[Gefilte Fish]

Rose,

We all have our standards. You won't eat non-glatt meat. I will not eat chassidic shechita. The reason? Lubavitch are messianic worshippers of Menachem Mendel, and Satmar has been proven again and again to provide outright treif to non-Satmar (not non-glatt, but outright TREIF!).

O-U, KAJ, or Beit Yosef is fine.

[Shoshi]

The fact that the person down the street will eat it and he/she "calls" himself/herself Jewish is immaterial.

Posted by: Rose | June 22, 2012 at 08:57 AM

I'm sure they feel the same about you.

[Shoshi]

stunning animals immediately after the schochet finishes slaughter.

why should that be a problem

Posted by: seymour | June 22, 2012 at 09:20 AM

And why do they even do it? I thought stunning was supposed to be a humane measure, so the animal doesn't experience the slaughter, so how does doing it *afterwards* help? What am I missing?

[Shoshi]

My point clearly was that "kosher" like "beauty" is in the eye of the beholder so the question "Is Hebrew National Really Kosher?" is rather silly.

Posted by: Rose | June 22, 2012 at 10:17 AM

Do you really think it's in the eye of the beholder, or do you think your idea of kosher is the correct one? Or do you believe that kashrut follows a system of rules set down in various texts and applied by rabbeim of today?

[seymour]

And why do they even do it? I thought stunning was supposed to be a humane measure, so the animal doesn't experience the slaughter, so how does doing it *afterwards* help? What am I missing?

Posted by: Shoshi | June 22, 2012 at 10:27 AM

it kills it faster I guess

[seymour]

My point clearly was that "kosher" like "beauty" is in the eye of the beholder so the question "Is Hebrew National Really Kosher?" is rather silly.

Posted by: Rose | June 22, 2012 at 10:17 AM

not at all, somethings are trief. And something are kosher and some want to add a chumrha. But without the chumrha does not make it non kosher

[Rose]

The fact that the person down the street will eat it and he/she "calls" himself/herself Jewish is immaterial.

Posted by: Rose | June 22, 2012 at 08:57 AM

I'm sure they feel the same about you.

Posted by: Shoshi | June 22, 2012 at 10:24 AM

Exactly! So is Hebrew National franks kosher? Yes, No, Maybe, Who cares.

Is chocolate the best flavor ice cream? Yes, No, Sometimes.

All depends on who is answering the question.

[Max]

"If you say that you only eat glatt, go right ahead and enrich some rabbonim and feel righteous."

What's funny is that, from what I understand, "glatt" in the hechsher world doesn't actually mean the meat is glatt (no lung nicks), it just means "really kosher."

[Max]

"But that does not clear the behavior of Ralbag, who sent me a statement on the scandal for publication but who would not answer the two questions I sent back in response to it."

No offense Shmarya but unless I missed something Ralbag simply declined to answer two of your questions. That doesn't need to be "cleared" and certainly doesn't make him a "thug."

[i was there]

i was one of the shochtim at the plant in st paul with the git mix up, the rabbi did not at all rely on bitul and rov, he took testimony from me and others about what really happened and git made a mistake thinking the halal that starts fri afternoon went into the kosher section, i clearly marked off with a specific sign when the shechita ended and personally saw to it that the behemot from that point were not marked off anymore as kosher. git was hasty and reported the wrong facts. the rabbi took our testimony and ruled that there was no mixup but rather a mixed up fellow. at the end the meat was anywyas rejected because it was too late to be used already and over the weekend it was placed on hold till the rabbi investigated and we gave testimony. even tho rely it was not even a problem or isue, after that fashla git was fired by aer and he sued them and lost so you can imagine he is beharbeh kaas.
the shooting after the shechita we as shochatim learned the igrot moshe yorea dea volume 1 siman 22 where he says its lechatchila permitted according to shach and gaon from vilna and most rishoniim, its not a question of kosher slaughter but rather havlaat damim that maybe blood wont come out with salt and soak, igrot moshe rules that even that chasash is only if one would eat that meat raw after salted, or salted as a whole and not cut up into pieces and then salted, but once the pieces are cut and salted, like its done by all plants there is no worry of that lechtchila he writes.

[glatt u gotta be kidding buncnch of gullibles]

i dont even get this whole glatt issue the ppl posting that they only eat glatt and less than that is not kosher, do they even know that almost all glatt today is really not glatt, unless it is pure beit yosef where not one sircha is taken off. there is no such thing as glatt not beis yosef he is the one who formulated glatt, and not his glatt is really the regular kosher taking off sirchos. just the regular glatt today takes off up to three sirchot so they consider it as if it was less then a chazaka of sirchos so its considered like glatt, that is the only way u have glatt supply we see, real glatt is 10 precent u wouldnt have meat at the chasuna u fressed at last night if u really ate only glatt. so if there is a greater marketing gimick then this i cant think of one lets go glatt clas$$ action

[Althelion]

Rabbis have hijacked kashrus. It's really not that complicated. Chewed cud and cloven hooves. Fins and scales. Milk and meat. The multitude of hechirs is mostly result of rabbinic greed and politics.

[david k.]

shmarya u write
"But that does not clear the behavior of Ralbag, who sent me a statement on the scandal for publication but who would not answer the two questions I sent back in response to it."

i have gotten the statement too from ralbags office trust me its not ralbag himself triangke k kosher email is his office if have corresponded with them in the past, ralbag himself doesnt send or read or respond to any emails even from friends so dont take it personal shmarya he aint as tech savy as you are. in addition i doubt he would answer technical halachik inquiries what he relies on in an email to a blogger u gotta be kidding with all due respect.

[Fleishike Kishke]

When you eat Hebrew National, it's most definitely kosher, and possibly GLATT. When you eat "GLATT" it's most often not GLATT, and sometimes not even kosher.

[chaimperachia]

Shmarya, who in their right mind is going to spill their guts to a blogger while in the middle of a lawsuit? Just because they won't fully cooperate and release all information to you doesn't mean they're scandalous thugs.

[state of disgust]

Glatt, as one rav hamachshir once said to me, is a marketing tool. This in response to the fact that the label on his chicken declared it to be glatt. I asked him who was inspecting the smoothness of the chicken's lungs?
Glatt only refers to the lungs of cow and the lack of schirot (growths caused by ingesting feed into the lungs or caused by other factors). Other growths (cancer) in the carcass or organs can also be a reason for rejection. But Glatt refers only to the smoothness of the lungs.
The proper term to use when referring to strictly kosher is mehadrin and poultry in the 40's and 50's used to be marked "Kasher Mehadrin Kasher" as a sign of strict kosher slaughter.
But given the dumbing down of the Jewish community - including the Haredim - sellers of kosher food began putting Glatt on everything, a marketing ploy supported by the OU which has led the charge in the dumbing down of the American Jewish consumer.

[Jake]

Hmmm had a midnight snack of HN baloney. Yum!!!!!!!!

Consumer Report has regularly reviewed HN hot dogs as being the best.

Things have changed in the kashrus world over the decades.
Years ago (ok decades ) I dated a wonderful woman whose father was the head of the kashrut division of the Vaad Harabonim of Flatbush, Rabbi
He and some other Rabbis literally went to slaughter houses, and examined each carcas.he clearly explained that there was no possible way that the quantity of Glatt being sold in Brooklyn alone could be slaughtered. Even taking into account using the most lenient halachic position as to what technically was or wasn't glatt.

They knew meat was being sold as glatt with a higher price tag even though much of it could absolutely not be glatt. he told me that the vaad's working definition of what glatt was that the meat was properly slaughtered and that it was either soaked and salted or PROPERLY watered by the third day.

Note I do not know the Vaad of Flatbushes current halachic stance.
I presume it has had to shift with the right wing radicalization of Orthodoxy.

One of Rabbi Soleveichiks closet students, probably unknown to most FM readers because of his early death was Rabbi Harrold Kanotopsky.
Rabbi K gave a lecture in his schule before going on Aliyah that decried the kosher meat market going in the direction of glatt. I. His sermon he mentioned that whole sections of the Shulchan aruch and the works of other poskim were being made totally irrelevant. Rabbi K moved to Israel in the late sixties early seventies to Chair a department at Bar Illan. He was a brilliant student of the rav. Unknown to most today because of his premature death. Surely of the quality of most if not all of the current YU Roshei Yeshiva. But definitely not a right winger.

current stance.
Hebrew National which had been located in Queens had problems with ensuring the wetting down the meat. One reason they moved their manufacturing to the mid west closer to

[Jake]

Whoops left out the rabbis name.
Rabbi Sidney Applbaum z"l.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Coming soon: Glatt Kosher Chalav Yisroel Milk!

[Yoel Mechanic]

stunning animals immediately after the schochet finishes slaughter.

why should that be a problem

Posted by: seymour | June 22, 2012 at 09:20 AM
====================================
Excellent question! Why not ask a Rav to getaccurate information, and a clear halachic answer. Isn't that what a Rav is for?

Here is some background info: stunning before slaughter is a nonstarter, as no one one claiming to be frum is going to accept that. (OK, so find some exception..somewhere)

Stunning *after* slaughter is done to prevent back-splatter on the line. Perhaps some will feel it still has some advantage for humaneness, but I think the splatter issue is the main one.

Here too: ask a Rav. You will be extremely hard pressed to find someone who will consider that acceptable. Obviously the internal advisors at Hebrew National think it is acceptable. I hope you are beginning to get some ideas as to why Hebrew National doesn't "sell" so well in the frum communities.

I am not qualified to comment on how or why the decisions are made. I only wish to provide some background as to the situation.

[Jake]

Shmarya,follow the money.

I believe you have something re payments of cash per diems to family members in Israel. Israeli companies can in fact pay employees in cash for per diem expenses. I did it as a Israeli Employer. My employees loved they made a killing when they were traveling overseas. If they were away for more than 20 days they were taking home net, more than their monthly gross.

Note I said a Israeli company.

AER apparently pays them a salary in America and a per diem in Israel?
If the schochtim are working in America they have a American tax liability. Are they bein paid by AER Inc. An American company?

Or are they being paid by a Israeli company which would pay their traveling employees a per diem living expense?

American tax reporting and possible tax liability in one of two ways.
A non American works in America on a work Visa of some sort.
Or just because you are born American you have to report world wide income and possibly pay taxes.

Israel on the other hand bases a person Israel tax liability on the number of days per year that you are physically in Israel without regard to citizenship.

If the Israeli Schoctim are in the US for let's say 190 days a year they have no Israeli tax exposure. They would only have a American tax obligation.

How is it do they get the Israeli per diem in cash. That's $3,000 a month.
Is it an American Company paying them cash in Israel? Is it a Israeli company paying them?

Is there a AER Inc in America and perhaps a AER Ltd. In Israel?
If AER Inc has 10 Israeli employees they have to get 30,000 a month in cash to Israel to pay their per diem.

Part of my life experience background is public accounting, not for profit accountg and forensic accounting as well as having lived in Israel and being a business owner.

When Shmarya reported on his conversation with AER and mentioned cash a payments made in Israel for per die m expenses per Israeli tax law all of my antennas went up and I sad to myself whoops TMI.

That's why I posted on this blog directly to AER to shut up and get a lawyer. It is clear from their press response that they have lawyered up.

I have no personal knowledge nor can I say anything authorativly about AER and it's international employment policies. They probably are doing everything 100% kosher. But I can create so many permutations on how things. Could have been structured to avoid taxation that I had to post this. Let's hope everything is glatt kosher when it comes to finacial dealings.

[Shmarya]

Posted by: david k. | June 22, 2012 at 11:40 AM

david k., glatt u gotta be kidding buncnch of gullibles, and i was there, are all the same person sockpuppeting for AER and Ralbag.

Chose on screen name, boiychik, and stick with it or I'll ban you.

[Yoel Mechanic]

Glatt kosher is the standard for kosher four legged creatures. However, the Remah has written extensively about the lung issue, and for Ashkenazim who hold this way, kosher stam is 100% kosher. Shephardim however only hold by glatt. Sadly, the bottem dropped out of the American kosher stam market for a lot of unfortunate reasons. till about 1950 I think that A LOT of Jews of all sorts kept kosher, and there was a big market for kosher stam. Sadly, that market is virtually gone, and kosher stam has a bad reputation. And many claim that reputation is not undeserved. If it really is kosher stam, it *is* kosher, but who trusts that anymore?

Second issue: the word "glatt" is now used as a slang to simply mean "kosher, strictly, and we really really mean it". OK, big deal! there is no reason to make fun of someone just because they say things like "this chicken is glatt kosher". Sure, it is a misnomer, but isn't it getting a little nasty to mock someone just because their language style doesn't fit an academic form?

[Rebitzman]

Coming soon: Glatt Kosher Chalav Yisroel Milk!

YL - do not for a minute think this hasn't been considered.

[a rabbi]

I agree pretty much with Shmarya's take of the situation with several reservations:

1) The halacha of rov (majority) is not so simple, and we don't have enough information to discern if it was properly applied in this case.

However - when people buy kosher meat they rely on the hechsher that the meat was properly slaughtered and koshered. Meat that was mixed up with non-kosher, while it may be technically okay for me to use, it may be consumer fraud to sell it without disclosing that. In other words: if you were to come to most people and offer to sell them meat that was possibly mixed up with non-kosher meat, and attach to it a letter from the greatest rabbi stating it is halachikly fine, most people would still say no-thanks, and buy other meat. (And I don't care if other hechshers do it too, it's wrong regardless of who is doing it.)

2) In terms of AERs threats to sue whoever is behind this lawsuit, many rabbis would hold one does NOT need permission from beis din to sue in a case where court proceedings were brought against them by the party they are now suing in retaliation.

3) The reason a hechsher is trusted is that the person supervising has a chezkas kashrus, meaning that it is presumed he is an upright individual. In the case of Aryeh Ralbag, who is known to be a thug, and someone who perverts justice for the sake of money, he does not have a chezkas kashrus, and as such he cannot be trusted to supervise kosher food; especially since he is known to twist halacha for money.

4) In terms of pasteurizing meat before it is soaked and salted, I very highly doubt there is any textual justification to allow it, which is probably why Ralbag did not respond.

[Eli, what me messiah?]

Years ago I was in my office eating a hot dog (high probability was HN) when a colleague stopped by and said, "you actually EAT those things?" I said ah, yeah, why?
He said, "lips and buttholes", shrugged and walked away.
I didn't get it immediately, as he was probably referring to pork or chicken franks. but it eventually sank in that it's impossible to know with certainty what you're eating in a hot dog.
That is how I realized that, when it comes to hot dogs, it's better not knowing, and to just to keep your head in the ground like a stork (only with extra mustard).

[Shmarya]

when people buy kosher meat they rely on the hechsher that the meat was properly slaughtered and koshered. Meat that was mixed up with non-kosher, while it may be technically okay for me to use, it may be consumer fraud to sell it without disclosing that. In other words: if you were to come to most people and offer to sell them meat that was possibly mixed up with non-kosher meat, and attach to it a letter from the greatest rabbi stating it is halachikly fine, most people would still say no-thanks, and buy other meat. (And I don't care if other hechshers do it too, it's wrong regardless of who is doing it.)

Huh?

You can claim to ba a rabbi all you want to. But the halakha is that rov is kosher, all is kosher (as long as we're talking about a mistake or an accident, not something intentional).

Not only that, al pi din, you MUST eat it.

Someone who holds like you is specifically singled out by halakha as being an opponent of halakha, and what you do is not only wrong, it's horrible.

Who gave you smicha?

[a rabbi]

"Posted by: Shmarya | June 22, 2012 at 03:21 PM"

You are simplifying an extremely complicated matter.

Who gave YOU smicha?

[Eli, what me messiah?]

Ok, not a tax expert, but I think Jake makes some valid points, although I think Israel would also have some claim to taxes.

US tax liability: the amounts earned in the US and the per diems paid to the family in Israel should all be treated as taxable income, I think, unless there is a specific exemption. for per diems, there are exemptions for US citizens working abroad. For foreign workers living in the US, payments to their foreign families seems to me as just sending money to your employee's bank account abroad. taxable income if it's compensation for the job.

Israel tax liability: if the families are receiving payments, why isn't this income taxable in Israel? it's not a "per diem" because these are families living at home, right?

The explanation for not paying taxes doesn't sound kosher. Maybe someone more expert can weigh in on whether there are any specific exemptions that are being used (and the tax code is riddled with them).

PS: sorry to see that AER has now embargoed the discussions with Shmarya. that was maybe their best and fastest way to get their story and facts vetted and heard. (and maybe that explains the silence.)

[David]

Posted by: Yerachmiel Lopin | June 22, 2012 at 09:16 AM

Well said, along with other commentators upon similar lines.

In time, the frumma will change Halacha again and declare today's glatt to be treif.

[Shmarya]

You are simplifying an extremely complicated matter.

Who gave YOU smicha?

Posted by: a rabbi | June 22, 2012 at 03:41 PM

Obviously someone who really knows halakha, unlike you.

Look at Rashi. Look at the commentaries on Ta'aruvot there. You HAVE to eat it.

It really is that simple.

[Rocky]

Whether or not HN hot dogs are kosher, they contain sodium nitrate which is a preservative used in processed meats. Sodium nitrate converts to sodium nitrite in your body and forms nitrosamines when mixed with protein rich meat. Nitrosamines create cell damage in the body. Processed meat (whether kosher or not) increases the likelihood of getting colorectal cancer. For more information, read here:

http://www.dukehealth.org/health_library/health_articles/myth-or-fact-hot-dogs-cause-cancer

Kosher does not necessarily mean healthy. Don't be fooled by a marketing slogan.

[Litvish]

I love HN hotdogs.

Once I visited with my elderly parents and my mother offered to buy me some food.

I asked for Betampte garlic pickles and HN hotdogs. And get the regular ones, not low fat, I told her.

She got low fat.

I told her to bring them back to the store.

My father yelled, Don't ever bring that garbage into this house again! You know Jewish people don't eat low fat hotdogs!

He is so right.

[George Walker]

It's as Kosher as anything else is these days.
I remember HN took out an ad 20 or 30 years ago saying it's Lashon Hara to call them unkosher

[Rebitzman]

@Rocky

Until someone can demonstrate that high fat, high salt canbe healthy in some instances.......kosher NEVER equals healthy, and has never been my (or anyone else I know who keeps kosher) motivation for eating this way.

Good point,

[longwave]

A little history on Hebrew NAtional. THey were in Maspeth, Queens. Rabbi Shalom Rubin was head of the New York State Kashrus Division of the Agriculture Department.

One afternoon, his inspectors arrived there to check up on the plant. They found frozem meat, not soaked and salted, being defrosted in hot water (akin to boiling the meat). This is a major no-no.

The inspectors wrote up a violation but screwed up on te paperwork. They checked off that the plant was in compliance, realized their mistake after they left, then wrote that the plant was NOT in compliance.

Major scandel erupted after the violation was publicized. Hebrew National took out a page in the New York Times showing the original report. They sent people to Rabbi Rubins shul in the Bronx and taped the Shabbat sermon to see if he messed up and said something wrong. The bad blood lasted for years.

Eventually, There were union negotiations and Hebrew National told the union, Local 174, to take a major pay cut or else, be locked out. The workers decided to go on strike and they all lost their jobs. Hebrew Nation had just bought a treif plant in Indianapolis and was in the process of converting it to Kosher.
They had a year of crap coming out of that plant until they stabilized their production. It was said at that time that Indiana was picked because it was one of the few states that had no Kosher consumer protection laws and did not want anyone looking over their shoulder.

[Yerachmiel Lopin]

Yochanan Lavie asks if chalav yisroel glatt is next?

Of course: They will claim to remove the spoilage sirkes by hand using a frum yid.

Next question?...

Also, animal crackers are trayf, even if they only have kosher species in the mix. It leads kids to break off pieces and think there is no issur of ever min hachai.

[Yerachmiel Lopin]

Shmarya, you keep saying Ralbag is a thug. Could be. But I am not even sure what you mean. Does he play tough? Does he have lousy manners? Has he done dishonest things to exercise power?

Please clarify what you mean when you say he is a thug, with examples.

[spacedout BT]

If my wife told me she wants to go vegan I would spend the same night shopping and changing the kitchen around

[Hershel Ostropolyer]

Did anyone think to ask the cows, pigs and stray cats that were ground up into the kosher 'beef' what they thought about the whole affair? I mean, they were actually there, could testify as witnesses.

[Hershel Ostropolyer]

During this heat wave in the East, they have started selling 'glatt kosher' bottled water in the frum supermarkets. Even has a stamped certificate from the local rebbe certifying that the water is glatt kosher.

Enough said.

[state of disgust]

Yoel Mechanic said ...

"Sure, it is a misnomer, but isn't it getting a little nasty to mock someone just because their language style doesn't fit an academic form?"

It is not a case of language style, it is a case of a deliberate lie. In the case of kashrut, it has contributed to the dumbing down of the Jewish People. Mehadrin does not mean Glatt which is a specific term referring to the smoothness of the lungs of a cow. In this case, "Rabbonim" have led the Jewish People astray - in favor of marketing over stringency of description. For authorities in favor of stringency in almost all other areas of life, this is strange to the point of hypocrisy.

[Rebitzman]

I was thinking of firing up the grill and roasting some HN dogs in a show of support.......

But then I saw the lamb chops ..........

[Barry Farber]

The short answer to the headlined question is: on many occasions, NO!

[s]

The problem in some kosher plants is that the majority of workers are not Jewish, probably Mexican or from some other Spanish-speaking country. They may mix up the items that are kosher with items that are not and there is not adequate supervision over the non-Jewish employees. That is the reason for the mix-up of kosher and non-kosher meat.