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June 06, 2012

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Jeff

The frumma just need their gedolim to tell them what to think.

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | June 06, 2012 at 09:35 PM

Yesterday, I read an old FM post: Gay and Orthodox

The comment thread featured the leavings of one of the most obnoxious frummies I've come across in the several years I've been reading this blog. He called himself "Big Yossie", and while everything he said was a gem, this was by far the money quote:

If God wanted us to think for ourselves, he wouldnt have given us the Torah.

Really, they ought to be required by law to have this clearly emblazoned over the entrance to every Orthodox yeshiva in the world. Every time a liberal or, especially, a Modern Orthodox Jew is about to write a check to one of their "educational" institutions, s/he should be shown this.

This one statement epitomizes what has become of traditional Judaism. In fact, there is no more traditional Judaism; there is only the collective psychosis that is Haredism.

I guess the Nazis won - or perhaps it was a matter of supernatural intervention. If their Divine Psychopath exists, he could have chosen no better earthly representatives than these congenital lunatics and their evangelical and Islamic counterparts. They will be the destruction of humanity.

In any case, for the time being, it is a form of child abuse and should no longer be tolerated. It should certainly not be subsidized by government funding, either here or in Israel.

WoolSilkCotton

DH 11:03, yes.

yechi ben levitas

to n ultramarine;this action of a mohl is without doubt covered under SORNA REGULATIONS,The parents are complicit and the mohl should be classed as a paedophile. jail in federal prison is a strong pssibility if action is taken against these perversions.

Bob Guthrie

Praise G-d!.

New York City Health Commission issued a statement strongly urging that direct oral-genital suction not be performed during Jewish ritual circumcision, and announced that several hospitals, including those serving Hasidic Jewish communities and all Health and Hospital Corporation hospitals, have agreed to distribute a brochure that describes the risk of contracting the herpes virus from this practice, known as metzitzah b’peh

Finally we can get rid of such a filthy procedure mucked in ancient ages, non-sanitary/medical procedures. One more Jewish kid infected is already one too many.

...

Posted by: Shaya Yaakov Stauber
They can release any statements they want. They will not change the Mesorah we had Mesiras Nefesh for all these years!

Posted by: Garnel Ironheart
"Strongly advise" carries no actual legal weight. And besides, unless the pamphlets are in Yiddish they'll be ignored by their target audience.

Posted by: jj
Will there be any gvt witness in the room during brit mila to report the violation?. They won't even know. Bris are very private rituals. Nobody will know

Posted by: gabriel
There has been tens of thousands of circumcisions since 2000, following your flawed understanding of Epidemiology 101, more than a third of these infants would have contracted herpes. We know of ONLY 11.

Posted by: Shaya Yaakov Stauber
Besides they cannot even enforce it, as most Bris'in are performed in Shuls where if a NYC Health inspector shows up he will be noticed right away.

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton
But the frumma don't care...

...

Hmm, so back to "normal" then,...

(We know of ONLY 11.. Oh, only 11,... That's just like a small case of the flu, or a small case of rape, or a small case of murder,...)

CHAMOR BLI DAAS

New York Hospital of Queens is not listed.(Serves KGH and vicinity and receives most Hatzolah cases.)

dh

WSC @ 9:26

They use male doctors?

SkepticalYid

Besides they cannot even enforce it, as most Bris'in are performed in Shuls where if a NYC Health inspector shows up he will be noticed right away.
Posted by: Shaya Yaakov Stauber | June 06, 2012 at 04:21 PM

I truly hope none of the children in your community are infected. However if it does happen, you and all those of your mindset should be locked up for life.

WoolSilkCotton

Tracing even a few cases of a dangerous communicable disease to a single carrier can be considered a public health crisis. Look at the public health response when even one child gets meningococcal meningitis.

But the frumma don't care. Just like when the frumma were spreading mumps. They look to blame everyone except themselves. Spreading disease because of ignorance remains the hallmark of backward ignorant groups, usually in third world countries and frum neighborhoods.

WoolSilkCotton

Jancs, good point. I remember the rabbis in the Lubavitcher yeshiva telling me not to go to the public library, that the books were all written by idol worshippers and everything there is against the Torah.

The public library is the natural enemy of the frumma.

The frumma just need their gedolim to tell them what to think.

WoolSilkCotton

DH, I've worked in hospitals that serve frum women my entire career, and they do go to legitimate OB/GYN doctors. Midwives are required to work with 'physician backup', like any Advanced Practice Nurse, depending on state law, so I have no problem with women who prefer midwives. Most midwives give a more personalized warm fuzzy kind of care, and I can see why patients may prefer that.

That being said, there is no limit to the idiocy of frum decision making, such as opting out of a lot of prenatal screening and giving doctors a very hard time about having a C-section, even in a life-threatening crisis.

Shmarya

Posted by: gabriel | June 06, 2012 at 07:33 PM

1. It's extremely difficult to gather HSV-1 DNA.

2. So far, the mohels who have transmitted the virus have refused to cooperate with the Health Department or are not even known to the government because parents – on the orders of their rabbis – won't say who the mohel is.

Past that, 11 known cases does not equal 11 total cases.

Epidemiologists put the estimated number much higher.

In part, that's because not all infections of HSV-1 are serious enough to warrant hospitalization and brain damage may not be detected until years later when the child is in school.

If your rabbis weren't lying to you, you would have known all this already.

David

why havent they ever tested the herpes dna in any of these cases and match them to the rabbis.

Posted by: gabriel | June 06, 2012 at 07:14 PM

DNA is a goyishe scientific concept, not Toyreh, therefore it doesn't exist or at at best, of no relevance.

dh

Who do frum women present to for obstetrics, mid wives?

gabriel

woolsilkcotton,

There has been tens of thousands of circumcisions since 2000, following your flawed understanding of Epidemiology 101, more than a third of these infants would have contracted herpes. We know of only 11.

You can't consider yourself a modern enlightened scientist if you are not willing to agree that perfect evidence is needed here.

Lastly, dont underestimate the "frummas" since their religion comes second to any of these rituals. Have faith.

jancsibacsi

WoolSilkCotton--The fruma deliberatly want to stay dumb so they can convince themslefs of their superiority for them dumb is smart you can see that when a hassid dresses like in the wintes in summers 90 degree temperature,there is a sayin shote anoi margish, a foll doesn not fell the hear or cold like a normal person the same with mbp they dont want or cant fathom logical thinking since they are so entrenched in their mindless behaviour

WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar

Gabriel, all the proof in the world will not change the minds of the frumma.

When the same person sucks the penises of several random babies, and the babies come down with the same infection, and the infection is known to be spread by direct physical contact of bodily fluids/mucosa, any reasonable prudent person would conclude that the penis sucker is responsible. That is Epidemiology 101. The frumma Toyrah rejects Epidemiology 101.

This discussion would be appropriate if this was the year 1500. Amazingly, some remain unconvinced even in the year 2012.

gabriel

why havent they ever tested the herpes dna in any of these cases and match them to the rabbis. If they can show that it was indeed transmitted by the rabbi then i am sure gedolim would be more prudent. It will make the difference. Why hasn't anyone done that!!!!

Office of the Chief Rabbi

GI -
The NYS (not City) Health Dept has 4 pamphlets - 2 in Yiddish, 2 in English; one for moylim, the other for parents.
It says clearly (and bolded)
the NYSDOH recommends that infants being circumcised not undergo metzitzah b'peh .

Korbendallas72

They won't listen. We're going to have to fight them to keep them away from us.

Litvish

They can be video taped with a phone.

There are lots of ways to document violation of the law.

No one needs to complain for the law to protect the child from the ravages of Rabbinic Judaism.

jj

metzitzah or mesirah and many more crazy rituals ..........see if the haredi care .

haredi won't change . no matter what .

let the nystate dept of health pass a law
against metzitzah . will there be any gvt witness in the room during brit mila to report the violation ? they won't even know . bris are very private rituals .
nobody will know .

Irene

Well done, now we can move on to solving other problems.

A. Nuran

And the mohels are lining up for the adult converts...

Garnel Ironheart

"Strongly advise" carries no actual legal weight. And besides, unless the pamphlets are in Yiddish they'll be ignored by their target audience.

WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar

What? No dick sucking? It's antisemitism! Germany 1939! Oy nebech nebech!

BeenThereDoneThat

The fact that this practice even happens (and attracts media attention) is another reason why I am embarrassed to be Jewish.

That said, when my children had their brisses, the mohel did MBP, and I didn’t even bat an eyelid, as at that time, I did not realise the symbolic and undercurrent meanings of it, and that it was also not a nessesary part of the ritual.

If I were in the same place now, I would have insisted that he not do it (and watch like a hawk, as they do it so fast these days, that if you blink, you would miss it.)

Nigritude Ultramarine

The following hospitals have agreed to distribute “Before the Bris” to parents considering out-of-hospital circumcision of their newborn boys:

Hospitals should deny admission to rabbis who suck baby penis who show up to visit patients.

Nigritude Ultramarine

But my rabbi will die without baby penis blood!

Fleishike Kishke

Yes to the Sandik, No to the Sukdik.

David

They can release any statements they want. They will not change the Mesorah we had Mesiras Nefesh for all these years!

Besides they cannot even enforce it, as most Bris'in are performed in Shuls where if a NYC Health inspector shows up he will be noticed right away.

Posted by: Shaya Yaakov Stauber | June 06, 2012 at 04:21 PM

You need to get out of the Bronze Age and into the 21st Century.

Alter Kocker

We all know that the orthodox rabbinic authorities will see this as coming from a goyishe source and will dismiss it. It will not raise it's ugly head again until another child dies or is maimed. Of course, then the community will rally around the mohel and the family of the child will either be bought into silence or harassed into silence.

Shaya Yaakov Stauber

They can release any statements they want. They will not change the Mesorah we had Mesiras Nefesh for all these years!

Besides they cannot even enforce it, as most Bris'in are performed in Shuls where if a NYC Health inspector shows up he will be noticed right away.

Jake

Finally!

They left out one issue.

When this issue first arose years ago the Mohalim that were involved were warned by the NY City Department of Health that if they performed another circumcision and a child was injured or diedthey would have the mohel prosecuted. Therefore if a child died they would seek I.e. A manslaughter prosecution. ( note I do not know what would be the correct charge so I in in serted manslaughter.)

The Department of Health should make this policy official for everyone and they should make it public.

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