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June 25, 2012

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Yosef

"It does prove, however, that there are people who would go to such a severe extreme to do what they consider being "devout" and I think Haredi culture has forced this idea that women should be silent upon her. I believe that at the extent to which she carried out this idea there must be something wrong with her mentally. That doesn't mean I believe all haredim are crazy, it means I believe something is wrong with the mindset of Haredi culture. "

Mike, what the mental health professionals say is that if someone has a MH issue, it will, indeed, manifest within the parameters of the patient's culture. Thus, an Haredi OCD patient will, indeed, obsess within the Haredi culture, perhaps repeating hand-washing before bread, or parts of the prayers, etc. This dynamic is universal, and it thus proves diddley-squat about Haredi culture. Mental illness is simply that: mental illness.


(Where you get the idea that Haredi culture promotes the idea that women should be silent is simply beyond me and beyond the pale of all reasonable discussion of Haredim. You simply take one story and mindlessly paint the whole culture with it, all while smugly patting yourself on the back and assuming the guise of a great intellectual debater.)


"Now how about instead of being a grammar troll you argue with logic and reason rather than petty insults?
06/26/2012 10:36
Mike"

Your somewhat lengthy, flawed, and convoluted attempt at logical argument in response to my post would seem in conflict with the accusation that I
do not speak of matters of substance. (You may also have noticed that my comments on your poor grammar were directed to David, who initiated the claim that Haredim are ignorant. I was simply giving him some "tit for tat".)

dh

I Googled it. A fast of speech? How does this apply to my friend?

dh

Help me out here, "taanit dibbur"?

Shmuel

Last week I heard on one of the hareidi radio stations in Israel a shiur on the topic of taanit dibbur where the idea was praised and encouraged quoting a source from the gemorrah that a taanit dibbur is equivalent to 65000 regular taanuyot and will guarantee a special seat in the gan eden theatre.

I wouldn't be surprised if this woman heard the shiur and tried to win her place.

dh

Thanks. She also was bleak and dismal. But she thouht she was all alone in that. She was also smart as a whip and loved a clever sarcastic wit. She was half Jewish and half Catholic but a staunch atheist. At the end she decided to give spirituality a chance. She went to a church, but the door was locked. So she went to a shul. The shul was unlocked. She went in. No one was there. She went home and ingested a final meal of auto exhaust.

Once you said something about killing yourself and then didn't post for days. I was so beside myself I emailed Shmarya.

Jeff

If she had known Jeff, she probably wouldn't have.

Posted by: dh | June 26, 2012 at 01:07 PM

dh, that's very sweet of you, but while I'm not quite the genocidal maniac the frummies here seem to think I am, I'm also not someone to whom someone contemplating suicide ought to be exposed. I have a very bleak, dismal view of humanity and of life in general.

That said - please accept my condolences. I'm so sorry for your loss.

dh

DBSesq, I had a loved one commit suicide. A monumentally hideous act that ripples through everything, everywhere. If she had known Jeff, she probably wouldn't have.

dh

Being stupid, uneducated, immoral, hateful, segregated, fear plagued, criminally manipulated, infantile rabbinic slaves does not, in and of itself, equal "mental illness". Why do you fling that as an insult? It is what it is. The flip side of mental illness is often genius. This is clearly not something one sees spread with a wide brush in ultra orthodox communities.

Mike

@ Yosef:

Ok, now you're annoying me. First off, I read your comment, and no, I don't believe this story proves that all Haredim are crazy. It does prove, however, that there are people who would go to such a severe extreme to do what they consider being "devout" and I think Haredi culture has forced this idea that women should be silent upon her. I believe that at the extent to which she carried out this idea there must be something wrong with her mentally. That doesn't mean I believe all haredim are crazy, it means I believe something is wrong with the mindset of Haredi culture.

Now how about instead of being a grammar troll you argue with logic and reason rather than petty insults?

Jeff

I guess basic decency is lost on Chareidi haters.

Posted by: DBSesq | June 26, 2012 at 10:02 AM

My basic decency went out the window a long time ago, DBS - sort of like your objectivity.

SkepticalYid

Argh. Dang iPad keyboard. .. Always BEEN cognitively impaired. Just call me Shmarya, lol.

SkepticalYid

I can't help but wonder if that woman has always cognitively impaired. The poor thing. I hope the family gets the help the clearly need.

DBSesq

Eh, kill yourself anyway. You'll still be doing civilization a favor.

Posted by: Jeff | June 26, 2012 at 09:47 AM

Did it never occur to you, there there might be people who read this blog who lost loved ones to suicide? I guess basic decency is lost on Chareidi haters.

Jeff

It's called "intellectual honesty".

It's a disease that sometimes plagues fm'ers.

Don't worry, Shmarya is hot in pursuit of a cure.

Posted by: Yosef | June 26, 2012 at 08:26 AM

You have nothing of any value to say, on this or on any other subject, and nothing to contribute to society. I'd tell you to kill yourself before you reproduce, but it's probably already too late.

Eh, kill yourself anyway. You'll still be doing civilization a favor.

ah-pee-chorus

i dont think anyone is suggesting this proves all chareidim are crazy. however bacteria grow fastest in a warm,dark and humid environment with abundant nutrients. communities of highly religiously deluded people such as charedi neighborhoods are perfect breeding grounds for many mental illnesses. theyre like a giant petri dish for growing humans with OCD, mass delusion,arrested development, and lack of personal responsibility. so stories like this dont happen with most charedim, but theyre not surprising either.

DBSesq

I do like the idea of women taking a vow of silence. Too bad my ex-wife didn't join this group.

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | June 26, 2012 at 09:18 AM

Spoken like a true frumma

WoolSilkCotton

I do like the idea of women taking a vow of silence. Too bad my ex-wife didn't join this group.

DBSesq

Posted by: David | June 26, 2012 at 08:11 AM

Actually Moslems to claim to be the light unto the nations. Islam is every bit as supercessionist as is Christianity. But never minding that that theological quibble, you are not the idiot I had in mind at all with my post.

Yosef

Nuran; it goes like this: If a woman does something crazy, then she is a crazy woman. If a chareidi woman does something crazy, then chareidim are crazy. Thanks for your common sense.
Posted by: Yoel Mechanic | June 26, 2012 at 01:14 AM
You play both sides of the fence (which, of course, you'll deny). It's impossible to take you seriously.
06/26/2012 04:57
Jeff


It's called "intellectual honesty".

It's a disease that sometimes plagues fm'ers.

Don't worry, Shmarya is hot in pursuit of a cure.

SkepticalYid

II don't dance or sing, but I'm not sure if there's some special frumma chumra about getting your arse kicked by a woman. I'm certainly irritated enough by you substandard trolls right now.
Posted by: No Light | June 26, 2012 at 06:55 AM

Speaking as a man, I'd bet on you beating any one of them in under three rounds.

David

But if some idiots here believe that this episode is a basis to condemn all Chareidim, everywhere, what do those idiots say about all of Islam?

This idiot (me) is far more critical of Islam than I am of the Charedi cult, however, Moslems don't pretend to be a "light unto the nations". We do. "We answer to a higher authority". Therefore higher standards apply to us.

Also, fortunately (in a way), unlike Moslems, Charedim don't work or fight so are somewhat limited in their destructive power, except for the economic drain they cause. They are just too lazy. Don't get me wrong, Charedim have a desire to destroy secular society just like Moslems, they are just too incompetent, cowardly or lazy to carry it out. Moslems on the other hand are willing AND capable of destroying Western Civilization, and are working toward that end.

Critical enough for you?

Korbendallas72

White trash kids in high school do stuff like this, but at least they don't use idolatry as an excuse.

DBSesq

There is not doubt that this woman, and probably her husband suffer from mental illness. There is no doubt that this woman and probably her husband are ignorant of the basic concepts of Halacha, that saving a life takes precedence over virtually all else. There is no doubt that both this woman and her husband are the products of certain extremist segments of Chareidi society; segments which are woefully ignorant of how to teach and nurture people with mental illness and how to protect them, their children and the society in which they live.

Having said that, it's more than unfair to paint with so broad a brush and condemn ALL of Chareidiut for the actions of one mentally ill woman. The Chareidi establishment, probably including the leadership of the sect to which these parents belong, would never endorse what she did (I believe that the "Beth Din" was convened to try to induce the women to go to the hospital without have to physically force her. After all Beth Din never convenes on Shabbat.). But if some idiots here believe that this episode is a basis to condemn all Chareidim, everywhere, what do those idiots say about all of Islam? After all there are groups of Muslims who embrace shihadism (i.e. the suicide bombers), forced cliterodectamy of young girls, and honor killings of rape victims. Islamic justice in many countries still hitches criminals to a post and flogs them, adulterers are publicly stoned in some places, and thieves have their hands cut off. Are all you idiots who self righteously indict Chareidiut in this episode, prepared to do likewise to all of Araby and Islam?

David

Some questions:

1) Why did she hide the baby under her dress? (And was she fully clothed when she gave birth?)

2) Why did the husband leave his wife alone when she was in an advanced state of pregnancy?

No Light

Oh God, not the basement schtick again. Fucking boring frumdick trolls.

You only have three insults that you rotate out between you, and it's tiresome. Can't you exercise some creativ... oh yeah, that's not gonna happen is it. Why don't you ask your rebbe to help? One of your infant children, perhaps?

I could fart a better insult than:

"Schmendrick/Shmeril/Shmatta lives in his mom's basement/couldn't hack it in Chabad/is the grandson of a crook, so he's jealous of Haredim/a self-hating Jew/a racist"

So work on your act, dipshits. BTW are any of you opposed to mixed fighting? I don't dance or sing, but I'm not sure if there's some special frumma chumra about getting your arse kicked by a woman. I'm certainly irritated enough by you substandard trolls right now.

Yochanan Lavie

If only the trolls would take a ta'anit dibur and stop posting their inane defense of indefensible behavior here.

Jeff

This is a result of being alone in a room in the basement with WAY too much time on his hands.

Posted by: Jack | June 26, 2012 at 05:52 AM

And what are you doing to make things better?

Jack

Shmarya - I think you need to exercise some discretion as to what you report. You are doing a whole lot of good with the legitimate issues you report on, such as the child abuse issue. Your reporting of this story makes you look anti-chareidi, as opposed to anti some of the things that chareidim do, and detracts from the good work that you otherwise do.

Posted by: big guy | June 25, 2012 at 10:08 PM

This is a result of being alone in a room in the basement with WAY too much time on his hands.

Jeff

Not the simple fear of God, but rather being terrorised with fear of God and what would they say in the neighbourhood.

Posted by: Yosef ben Matitya | June 26, 2012 at 05:28 AM

More the latter than the former.

Jeff

I am going to scour the internet for a story about a Muslim/Hindu/Buddhist mentally ill person, post it on here, and extend my assumptions about the entire religion on that basis.

Posted by: BoruchGuthrie | June 26, 2012 at 05:18 AM

Good luck, genius. You won't find another community in which so much goes so wrong so often. And here is the defining difference:

At one point, three neighborhood rabbis were brought in to form a beit din, rabbinical court, in order to release the woman from her vow of silence.

In no other culture would this even be a consideration, let alone necessary. They'd simply restrain the woman, cut the chord and take them both to a hospital - the baby to pediatrics, her to a psych ward.

But among the Haredim, it always has to be different. You people even have the secular authorities terrified of ruffling the feathers of your rabbinic leadership. There is no other culture of which I'm aware in which a member of the clergy would have to be brought in simply to allow a paramedic to do his or her job.

Yosef ben Matitya

Many commenters are attributing this story to mental illness.
Indeed it probably is. But it is the type of 'group' psychosis. That includes the lass, her husband, her parents, their rabbis and their community.
A behaviour resulting from 'fear'. Not the simple fear of God, but rather being terrorised with fear of God and what would they say in the neighbourhood.

BoruchGuthrie

It fits the pattern of the Charedim perfectly:

o Ignorance.
o Lack of Halachic knowledge.
o Lack of common sense.
o Lack of concern for welfare of child.
o Lack of concern for welfare of self or condition of home.
o Lack of humanity.
o Lack of concern by husband for welfare of wife or child.

Posted by: David | June 25, 2012 at 09:05 PM


Yes, of course. You are 100% correct. It fits the Charedi profile perfectly. It happens the whole time. In fact, I am surprised FM even reported on it. This happens every day in every Charedi community.

{For those who didn't get it - SARCASM}

Pathetic.

I am going to scour the internet for a story about a Muslim/Hindu/Buddhist mentally ill person, post it on here, and extend my assumptions about the entire religion on that basis.

BoruchGuthrie

I think she is mentally sick and abused by the extreme views of religion.

Posted by: Joe Field | June 25, 2012 at 08:33 PM

Who gives a **** what you think?

You judgemental, condescending good-for-nothing - using the case of a person who is clearly very mentally ill to make a political jibe

Pathetic

Jeff

Nuran; it goes like this: If a woman does something crazy, then she is a crazy woman. If a chareidi woman does something crazy, then chareidim are crazy. Thanks for your common sense.

Posted by: Yoel Mechanic | June 26, 2012 at 01:14 AM

You play both sides of the fence (which, of course, you'll deny). It's impossible to take you seriously.

effie

Hours were spent trying to convince the couple to allow the baby to be checked at a hospital.

Why did they waste hours trying to reason with these two nuts?

Maskil

Wait, why a bet din to nullify the vow? That means that the husband didn't play ball witht the rabbi, because the husband's nullification of a woman's vows is as-good-or-better (there is no reall "better" here, but it is as de jure as it can come) than a talmid hacham or a bet din of 3 guys. He was definitely part of the problem, not part of the solution. And also Ashkenazi, 'cause over here if he were Sepharadi he would have hit her hard until she started participating.

--

One has to remember that the sheer number of Haredim changes the entire dynamic. In a case like this it's not so much a matter of extremes but a matter of statistics for people this weird. The average person cannot truly conceive of a thousand people (even if he's been to a ball game), and when there are hundreds of thousands shit like this is gonna happen and there is no social filter and the "leaders" don't know what to do with people like this.

Abu Jihad Schneerson

Animals!All of them!

Yosef

"there is a serious problem with this woman"


"one use of incorrect *verbage* (s.i.c.) does nothing to... prove that I am ignorant."


(Make that two,now.) But, of course, one sick Haredi woman does, indeed, prove all Haredim are sick.

"If you want to make an argument, at least make it relevant."
06/26/2012 00:00
Mike


...and that's my point, Mike!

No Light

She's probably one of Keren Bruria's (Mother Taliban/Rabbanit Keren) crowd. She insists her followers undertake long periods of ta'anit dibbur.

Yoel Mechanic

Nuran; it goes like this: If a woman does something crazy, then she is a crazy woman. If a chareidi woman does something crazy, then chareidim are crazy. Thanks for your common sense.

A. Nuran

It sounds like there's some sort of mental health issue here. The woman deserves compassion and some professional care to deal with the issues, especially with a new baby.

Yosef

Clean up your world - then he won't have to.
06/25/2012 22:55
Jeff

Hats off to the Chief (Sanitation Engineer)!

Mike

@ Yosef:

Hahaha, very funny. You can call it intensity or whatever you want, there is a serious problem with this woman and nitpicking my comments for one use of incorrect verbage does nothing to expound on the situation, nor does it prove that I am ignorant. If you want to make an argument, at least make it relevant.

Yosef

I feel that at this level of extremity there must be something going on.
06/25/2012 23:08
Mike

Last I counted, there are only two levels of extremeties, Mike: upper and lower (but, of course, Haredim are the ignorant ones, eh, David?).

Mike

@ ruthie:

I totally agree with you. Women in those communities are so brainwashed into being good little lambs and keeping quiet that I believe she felt as though the only way to express her gratitude to G-d was by literally keeping silent; as if that is the only way women can serve G-d. I feel that at this level of extremity there must be something going on.

Jeff

All the shmutz that fits he prints

Posted by: Yosef | June 25, 2012 at 07:46 PM

Clean up your world - then he won't have to.

moshe

Lets all back up a second and count all the crack babies born in America in very secular societies. Lets not pretend that She couldn't use birth control(There is no Rabbi that wouldn't let her). Are we asking the Rabbi's to feed her the birth control themselves? Every society has its problems. When a society promotes having many children there will be some lunatics like this one. An open society has its downfalls too, watch Dr Phil if you need proof.

religious ppl are crazy

religious ppl always hide behind a reason
to justify their crazy actions .

that's why they cannot be trusted .

big guy

If this story is true, which I doubt, then this lady has some serious mental issues. I hope she gets the help she needs.

Shmarya - I think you need to exercise some discretion as to what you report. You are doing a whole lot of good with the legitimate issues you report on, such as the child abuse issue. Your reporting of this story makes you look anti-chareidi, as opposed to anti some of the things that chareidim do, and detracts from the good work that you otherwise do.

issey

THIS IS A MADE UP STORY !

David

This is so strange. It doesn't fit any religious patterns and sounds to me like the mother was profoundly depressed or otherwise emotionally impaired. I wonder what the father's state of mind was in all this.

Posted by: Shoshi | June 25, 2012 at 06:59 PM

It fits the pattern of the Charedim perfectly:

o Ignorance.
o Lack of Halachic knowledge.
o Lack of common sense.
o Lack of concern for welfare of child.
o Lack of concern for welfare of self or condition of home.
o Lack of humanity.
o Lack of concern by husband for welfare of wife or child.


western jew

Our own jewish people are the new holiday patrol for fresh ignorance.

David

Didn't I just last say about two days ago (words to the effect) that just when you think the Charedim can't get any more bizarre they manage to outdo themselves? They have done it AGAIN!!! It normally takes about a week, here we have just two days between ultra bizzarro events.

Joe Field

this is in some way...a depressed or abused woman. abused by her family or community...
i feel sorry for her.
Posted by: ruthie | June 25, 2012 at 07:09 PM

I think she is mentally sick and abused by the extreme views of religion.

zibble

Seriously mentally disturbed woman. The appropriate response by the authorities: 1) immediately remove any kids from her household 2) psychiatric intervention for both her and her kids.

ז׳ גדול

The story is bogus!
A woman cannot be in taanit dibbur for more than twenty minutes.

S M L

This transcends religion - this behavior is a manifestation of mental illness on the part of the mother. Good thing one of those paramedics had the sense to realize that the child was endangered. Certainly child protective services should be involved as would be the case if this were any other, (ie: non-Haredi) religiously fanatical and probably delusional woman doing this. Truly this is craziness. There's no other way to explain it.

Seymour

This is a case of mental illness nothing else lets not. read to much into this

Abracadabra

Nobody takes any responsibility in the Chareidi world for these cases of couples with extreme mental illness or otherwise mentally impaired couples. The rabbis do nothing, and these completely dysfunctional people get married and create tons of kids who then grow up in radically unstable environments. The rabbis do not "chas veshalom" want to take responsibility to stop them from having children because "it's an aveira" to put them on birth control. Forget the abuse of the children born into such homes.

100 years ago and earlier, the "survival of the fittest" prevailed, and most of these people didn't survive - literally. But now when everyone is on handouts and government stipends and government healthcare, they not only survive, they physically thrive, get married, and procreate. But nobody takes responsibility for that, and the children of these couples wind up suffering terribly.

In the secular world there are ethical guidelines that are followed and oversight of these situations. In the Chareidi world where the rabbis run the show, the "aveiros" of birth control and a man "spilling his seed" come before all other considerations.

Tell me again how beautiful religion is. Sometimes I forget.

Yosef

All the shmutz that fits he prints

Mitch

Ha’aretz reports that despite the ordeal, the baby is healthy.

Anyone know if it was a boy or a girl?

Stop The Madness

Child Services should be called and all her children should be taken from her. This animal should be jailed as well as the idiot rabbi(s) that have taught her this behavior. Is this the Toeyavah that Levin (y'msh) talks about? Is this the 'ooutside forces' that Zwiebel spews forth? It is the blind leading the blind. Who is in charge of this bogus religion?

shanda

Its the internet which is the rEAL problem. Why are we worried about mundane things like a mother hiding her baby in her dress.

Litvish

Time to call child protective services.

This woman is not only mentally disturbed, ignorant and out of control but also totally unfit to raise any child.

The haredim need to be sterilized in such cases to prevent them from bringing more kids into this world.

Office of the Chief Rabbi

Where's that tow truck driver live?

Did this father/husband take off because he, too, knew he shouldn't look "at that place" lest the child be blind?

 ruthie

this is in some way...a depressed or abused woman. abused by her family or community...
i feel sorry for her.

Shoshi

This is so strange. It doesn't fit any religious patterns and sounds to me like the mother was profoundly depressed or otherwise emotionally impaired. I wonder what the father's state of mind was in all this.

jancsibacsi

Mental illness spwans more mentally ill,someone should stop thees imbaciles from doing whatever they want.

netflix

this reads like a chelm story.

fucing scumbag lowlife charedi jew. endangering the life of a child! these 15 year old procreating haredim need to be forced to use birth control until they're 40+

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