Haredi Pol Says Drafting Haredim Is “Bloodshed, Incest, and Idolatry”

The chairman of the Sefardi haredi Shas political party Eli Yishai is says drafting haredim is "bloodshed, incest, and idolatry" – the three cardinal sins in Judaism.

Eli Yishai

On top of Yishai's over-the-top rhetoric, his spokesperson added that "no [resolution to the haredi draft crisis] that doesn't allow yeshiva students to study [full time] would be allowed…”

 

Comments

[David]

Scum.

[moshe]

Would he support the parasites out of his own pocket?

[Skepticalyid]

Incest? Military service will force them to boink their mothers and sisters?

[5th Avenue]

Ynet is not really translating accurately. Ervah in Hebrew can mean incest but also encompasses all sexual crimes including minor ones that soldiers would be exposed to in Tzahal

[jancsibacsi]

This mindless moron needs help he is out of his mind ,he and his cohorts are nothing but parasites who live on others hard work and sacrifice despicable thats what he is.

[Reb Chaim]

Eli Yishai has got to go down in Israeli lore as one of the biggest jerks ever to serve in the government. I can appreciate when Rev Ovadia or one of the other so-called gedolim makes such an asinine statement, we can attribute it to senility. After all, most of them are over 90 years old. But what is Minister Yishai's excuse? He doesn't suffer from senility yet - but I guess it's just plain old stupidity.

[Yosef ben Matitya]

the man is a moron, I don't think this pronouncement will help his sagging popularity! the days of shas are numbered.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Contrast this to what Sir Winston Churchill said to his cabinet: "I have nothing to offer but blood, toil, tears and sweat. . ."

The chareidim are becoming a fifth column.

[seymour]

sick I think they are losing their minds or they are running scared and just saying gibberish.

I see they already know that the BS argument that we protect you is falling on death ears.

sorry guys the party is over

they are digging their own grave by no compromising

[Yosef ben Matitya]

5th Avenue,

:-) it often happens in the israeli media. one will often find that they are weak in both english & hebrew in addition to being weak in matters jewish.
this is one of the unfortunate 'bonuses' of finally having our own sovereign state.

[5th Avenue]

Yochanan, in the worst case scenario they would just be lazy bums. But thanks anyway for identifying with the blog owners hatred which is a purpose unto itself

[Adam Neira]

Here are the facts of the matter...

The State of Israel has approximately 6.4 million Jews. How many Rabbis and Yeshiva students should be on the payroll and how many Yeshiva Students should do national service ?

A Rabbi's job includes : Officiating at services for Shabbat; Holy Days; Counseling, Mentoring; Being a fixed point of reference for a community; and assisting with life cycle events like births, shidduchs, weddings, brit milahs, bar/bat mitzvahs and deaths. If one Rabbi is needed per 1,000 people then this means Israel currently needs 6,400 "Doctors of the Law". (Rabbis’s remuneration : 40 weeks p.a. at Shul; 4 weeks Training; 8 weeks Holiday. Pay $125,000 p.a.) You also need a reserve group of Rabbis to fill in when permanent Rabbis take a break from their shuls. (1,000 in number). You also need schochets, sofers and Rabbis skilled in divorce and funerals. (1,000 in number). Not all Yeshivah students go on to become Rabbis so let's say 1,000 spots could be reserved p.a. for those interested in becoming Rabbis. Some attrition would be allowed to take place as people drop out of the course. Only the best and the brightest, like with scholarship programs in the West would be accepted. No more ersatz training by pseudo "important" institutions. Lastly you need a core group of head Rabbis, i.e. A Sanhedrin of 71, plus an administrative, management group to oversee the others of say 500. Total Rabbis/Yeshiva Students needed p.a. = Approx. 10,000 (Should Diaspora Rabbis be trained in Israel first ? Interesting question which would add to this number. Funding issues arise also.) So if the State/Kingdom is to fund the education of these yeshivah students the budget for this section of the population is limited. (The private/public partnership model of funding for Rabbis and institutions also has gotten messy. Too many crossed boundaries. The Sanhedrin, Rabbis and Yeshivah Students should be true "Public Servants", not able to be or willing to be compromised.) These 1,000 Yeshivah Students would be exempted from national military service. It is all about getting the balance right. The 54,000 people excluded from national service every year i.e. the “exempted person’s” figure is a little out of kilter. The current ratio is not what Ben Gurion envisaged. It has really has blown out in 64 years. It also is probably not the ratio that Moses, if he was alive today, would recommend for a modern nation state/kingdom.

A nation or kingdom needs to constantly monitor what types of jobs are necessary to keep things ticking over. The financial relationship between the taxpayer sector and the dependent sector which includes : Special Needs People; The Elderly; Homeless; Prisoners; Sick and Injured; Infants; Adolescents; and Students also needs to be monitored and managed properly so that resentment doesn’t build between different sections. People don’t mind paying their taxes or contributing "a shekel to the upkeep of the Temple" if everyone is contributing to the best of their abilities.

The key to a healthy economy and community is for everyone to contribute to the national effort in some way, shape or form. If everyone shares the load the burden becomes easier to shoulder.

Also, if the State of Israel makes the right moves in the coming days, weeks and months the existential threats will diminish and the defence budget will be able to be trimmed. So the Tal Law issue is connected to the larger geo-political picture.

[Skepticalyid]

Adam! It's been a while! How ya doing?

[Sarek]

Drafting Haredim Is “Bloodshed, Incest, and Idolatry”
Cool! What do they call paying taxes? What do they call tikkun olum?

[P. Almonius]

Rabbis in Israel don't officiate on Shabbat and Holy Days. What do you need a rabbi for at a birth? Brits are performed by mohelim, not rabbis. What do you need a rabbi for at a shidduch?

[rebeljew]

Drafting Haredim Is “Bloodshed, Incest, and Idolatry”

I agree. They seem to be able to get violent and protect themselves when they want to. When will Israel finally give these people their own state and pull Israeli army and facilities out and withdraw all aid to the new nation of Haredistan? When will Israel finally throw this rebellious child out of the house?

[ז׳ גדול]

Ynet is not really translating accurately. Ervah in Hebrew can mean incest but also encompasses all sexual crimes including minor ones that soldiers would be exposed to in Tzahal
---------------------------
He did not say Erva he said Gilui Arayot (גילוי עריות) which mean incest.

[Expatriate Owl]

If you must have incest, at least keep it within the family!

[5th Avenue]

What is your source? Anyway, giluy arayos could also refer to women uncovering parts of their bodies as a literal translation

[5th Avenue]

Has Shmarya served in the military of either United States or Israel?

[seymour]

Has Shmarya served in the military of either United States or Israel?

Posted by: 5th Avenue | June 25, 2012 at 09:55 AM

an old and stupid argument

this discussion is not about any individual but a whole segment of society

stick to the point

[Alter Kocker]

Yishai is evidence that his father had carnal relations with a goat. That being said, once again the government has no choice but to put these bastards into uniform-army or prison-their choice.

[AztecQueen2000]

Here's an experiment:
the next time a terrorist shows up in Israel (and hopefully this will never happen) disarm the entire IDF and instead give them Chumashim and sets of Shas. Let's see how well study protects Israel then. (Again, I don't WANT this to happen, I'm just making a point.)

[5th Avenue]

It is part of the point if Shmarya is just a hypocrite armchair general

[Harvey]

If study of Torah provides an umbrella of protection for the Jewish people, was Hashem all out of umbrellas between 1933-1945?????

[5th Avenue]

To answer Harvey's question you need to know the ancient texts but what's the point as Shmarya's following doesn't believe in much if they even believe in G-d

[ז׳ גדול]

What is your source?

Posted by: 5th Avenue | June 25, 2012 at 09:54 

http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-4246943,00.html

http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,73
40,L-4246943,00.html

יו"ר ש"ס, אלי ישי, שהביע בעבר התנגדות חריפה לקידום חלופה לחוק טל, עלה מדרגה, והגדיר את המהלך לגיוס חרדים נוספים לצה"ל כ"ייהרג ובל יעבור". בדרך, השווה שר הפנים את המהלך ל"שפיכות דמים, גילוי עריות ועבודת אלילים" - שלושה מעשים אסורים על פי היהדות, כדבריו. לדבריו, הניסיון לחייב גיוס חרדים משול לאחד משלושת האיסורים הללו.

[Office of the Chief Rabbi]

By saying it's like incest, is Yishai calling his opponents "motherfuckers?"

[No Light]

Oh great, another new graduate from the Trollover Yeshiva.

They really need to expand their Limudei Shmarya curriculum. The trolls keep retreading the same ground, and it's really fucking tedious.

[5th Avenue]

Zayin Gadol thank you for your source

All that is a classic reference to cardinal sins and in the sexual category even minor infractions are included so it proves the point that Ynet is either very ignorant or purposely blowing things out of proportion

[5th Avenue]

No Light you're name is so fitting

[mojo]

5th avenue; frankly you write crap.

[David]

"Bloodshed, incest and idolatry?"
Seriously?
Is everything that goes against what Yishai and his constituents want "bloodshed, incest and idolatry," or is this reserved for special cases? What about cutting welfare checks for able-bodied people who choose not to work? "B,I & A?" How about if Yishai goes into his favorite bakery and they're out of Danish? Is there a limit here?

[Yochanan Lavie]

If going into the army is "avodah zarah," then not going is "avoider zarah." (humor)

[Barry]

Something got twisted in the translation process. Simply makes no sense.

[seymour]

To answer Harvey's question you need to know the ancient texts but what's the point as Shmarya's following doesn't believe in much if they even believe in G-d

Posted by: 5th Avenue | June 25, 2012 at 10:26 AM

pleas enlighten us, since i do, as many other do, know know the ancient text.

[Mike]

@ 5th avenue:
You think I don't know any Torah at all?

Actually, 5th, you're completely incorrect. The only "cardinal" sin involving sexual immorality is adultery. You think staring at a woman is "giluy arayos." I'm telling you it's not.

In any case, how will serving in the army lead to any of these things? Please, 5th, enlighten us.

[Shmuel]

This arguement reminds me of Monty Python's film "the life of Brian" where one of the rebels wants to fight for the right for men to give birth.

Who the hell wants these hareidim in the army? this is not a joke - we have to win wars - how can we do that if the hareidim fill half of the front lines. we need people who can be relied on and not those who every second will be on their (kosher) phones to their rebbe asking if they can pull the trigger if they are baal keri and haven't been to the mikvah this morning.

take away rights if they don't serve - but please don't encourage them to enlist!

[Maskil]

גילוי עריות - Stange choice of translation for Ynet.

While commonly used in Israel to describe incest, the term Yishai used is a term for all criminal sex acts of a certain degree (spiritual exicision) and higher (death by heavenly court, possible death in at the hands of a court of 23 judges in the time when the death sentence is active). This can be anything from one's own wife who menstruated and did not go to mikveh to adultery with a married woman. His point is that it will, in its current form, push the young men into sexual impropriety of epic proportions.

[5th Avenue]

Mike, since when are you a Halacha authority? The real authorities say all kinds of sex acts are yehurag velo yaavor, not just with a married woman and even short of actual coitus

[Yochanan Lavie]

Apologies to Bruce Springsteen (10th Ave Freezeout):

Fierce blogs in the city
Bad Shmarya searching for his groove
Seems like the frum world's acting shitty
And it's getting hard to be a Jew
Well everybody who is sane is apalled
But truth tellers are the bad guys
And we've got a brand new troll
5th Avenue freak-out, 5th Avenue freak-out

Well I was stranded in yeshiva
Tryin'a take in all the chumrot they're giving
'Til, all the hats are black but the shirts are white
And we're wearing Rabbenu Tam's tefillin
From a pashkavil the bans are all plastered
Turn off the internet so things get real quiet real fast
I was stalked by a 5th Avenue freak-out
5th Avenue freak-out

And I'm all alone, I'm all alone
And Yidden you better get the picture
And I'm on my own, I'm on my own
And I can't go home

When the change was made online
And Yochanan joined the band
From the Catskills to the city
All the little Yidden take a stand
I'm gonna parody some hit tunes and laugh
When Shmarya and his posse bust this story in half, whoa,
5th Avenue freak-out, 5th Avenue freak-out

[jancsibacsi]

5th Avenue-You dont get it youre toireh is obsolete, get that through youre thick skull we live in a civilized society where its laws superceed that of the obsolete toireh you ninkepoop.

[Mike]

@ 5th Avenue:

First off, I don't claim to be a halachic authority, I simply challenged your assertion that the readers here have no knowledge or background in Torah. Second, other than adultery, no other sexual act is considered a "cardinal" sin which a Jew must sacrifice him/herself to keep. Third, which "authorities" are you speaking of? The Haredi ones? Because their view of halacha and mine are completely different.

@ Yochanan:

Another great parody!

[Yochanan Lavie]

Thanks, Mike.

[Lubavitchers are Christians]

The plan is being set in motion. The haredim will allow themselves to be killed rather than get drafted.
Unfortunately, the state doesn't realize how adamant the haredim are on this topic. They are going to mobilize international media and international opinion to fight their cause. They will begin a world-wide media onslaught explaining that they want nothing to do with the Israeli army and the illegal occupation.
In the end, the Israeli government will relent, because the negative publicity will be too much for them.

This is what I'm hearing from my haredi contacts.

[Office of the Chief Rabbi]

What a resume-enhancing piece of yichus for 5th A*hole - a genuine YL masterpiece!

PS Loved the "avoider."

[Yochanan Lavie]

Thanks, OCR.

[Lubavitchers are Christians]

From bechadrei charedim headline:

האלפים זעקו: "נמסור את הנפש נגד גזירת הגיוס
"

Thousands cried out: "We will give our lives against the evil decree of the draft".

Look out for fireworks.

A theory that I have is that the Israeli government would very much like a huge distraction, such as this fight is bound to become, to distract the world away from its plans in Iran over the next few months.

[5th Avenue]

Yochanan can be taken seriously when his musical coverage is evenhanded. In honor of the Rosenberg-Gleckman familia he should do a parody of Sicilian Medley from Godfather III

[5th Avenue]

Go ahead & take Yishai to task for calling Army service murder

What about old Leon the mafia head who actually murdered people in cold blood so that he could loot their assets. That's certainly much worse that getting a kollel check you bunch of hypocrites. Keep coddling the grandson who has nothing to do except cover up his own background while he looks for all the dirt in the world to blog about and take money from readers while he's at it

[A. Nuran]

Lubavitchers are Christians writes:
The plan is being set in motion. The haredim will allow themselves to be killed rather than get drafted.

Downside? Every bite of food they take is by the charity of people they hate.

Every minute of every day of their lives is thanks to the courage of better men and women who are willing to lay down their lives for these ungrateful wretches.

They take everything, give nothing and spit on the State they parasitize and betray.

They are traitors pure and simple.

[A. Nuran]

If they would rather die than make the slightest gesture towards responsibility let them die. The world will continue to spin perfectly well without them. Their children can grow up in home where they will learn human decency.

[ז׳ גדול]

5th Avenue is the Good 'ol Archie Bunker, his style of writing does not change as his monikers , he has sometimes good points but then he goes and attacks people personally and that time Shmarya bans him.

[seymour]

Posted by: 5th Avenue | June 25, 2012 at 12:37 PM

wtf does his grandfather have to do with this discussion

if addition any money he gets from here is purely voluntary by readers.

also no matter what Eli Yishai said is nonsense and delusional

[danny]

Adam Neira... in addition to being out of your fucking mind, you could bore an actuarial scientist to death with your blather.

Reading your post, I feel like the poor passenger who sits next to Capt. Stryker from the "Airplane" movies.

[danny]

YL... each song is better than the last one!

Have you NYC guys picked a meet up date? I could be persuaded to hop a flight or an Amtrak.

[Atheodox Jew]

Thousands cried out: "We will give our lives against the evil decree of the draft".

That was Yishai's point, not that the army = bloodshed, incest and idolatry. He cited the three cardinal sins to invoke the idea of "yehareg v'al ya'avor" - that people should be willing to die before submitting to such a law.

(Which is only slightly less absurd!)

[raquelle]

go to work, serve the country ENOUGH, throwing stones on shabbat on neviim,street in jerusalem is not an a job

[Dovy]

I happen to like Ada mNeira...

>“Bloodshed, Incest, and Idolatry”)

[No Light]

Archie Clunker - it's 'No Light' as in "You are no light unto the nations".

Danny - be careful, Moshiach Neira will smite you!

Have you been on a Bellevue sabbatical, with 'Lubavitchers are Christians', Adam?

Welcome back heilige gadol. ;-)

[Yochanan Lavie]

Danny: Contact me @ yochananlavie145@gmail.com.

[Fleishike Kishke]

To avoid the terrible sin of Avoda Zara, the Haredim have "built a fence" and don't do any Avoda, not in the army, not in the work force, no place at all.

[Jake]

Giluie arayot includes all biblically forbidden sexual relationships including adultery, two males having anal sex etc.

It is not limited to incest.

I havnt read all of the comments just the first few.

For anyone who has really learned the laws of yehareg v'al yavor you would understand why Yishai brought up this halachic concept.

Think Chana,Chanukah,pig. Many one of you folks might get my hint.

[Jake]

Mike,
Suggest you learn abyssal Jewish law. Cliff notes addition doesn't cut it.

Halachic " Cardinal sins " are far more than adultery. Bestiality is one I didn't mention before.

So don't screw your pooch or visa versa.

[Jake]

Maskil
Excellent explanation of the laws of giluiy arayot. One of the few people here with a clue.

Gadol
Thanks for the Hebrew version it is clear there is a sociological misunderstanding in the useage of yehareg Vaal ya'vor.

I have used that exact phrase in business negotiations when I wanted it made clear that a certain issue was a deal breaker.

I have an Israeli friend who is doing a 30 million dollar project in Moscow. My friend is not religious and doesn't speak Russian so he uses translators. He said yehareg Vaal yavor while negotiating with a Russian oligarch. He isn't sure exactly what the translator said but four guards reached for guns. He quickly said it was hebrew euphemism for a red line.

[chaim yankel]

To those who are familiar with the history of the draft and the Charedi, this language of eli yishai is really borrowed from the fight back in the 50's between Ben gurion and the charedi with respect to drafting of women into sheirut leumi or national service. The charedi said it is forbidden because the girls can be put into compromising sexual situations and requires self sacrifice like one of the three cardinal sins. This language has now been extended by yishai to the male draft. I suspect its just hyperbole on his part because that kind of language has not been associated with the male draft. He may be alluding to the general immorality associated with the army but that can be remedied by having seperate battalions. The fact is that many charedi serve in the army so it is clearly not taken that seriously. By contrast virtually no charedi girls do sheirut leumi because of that 50's ruling.

[Mike]

@ Jake:

With or without the cliffnotes edition can you give me a reason to believe that Haredim in the army will be forced to do ANY of these things?

[Bob Guthrie]

Posted by: Lubavitchers are Christians
The plan is being set in motion. The haredim will allow themselves to be killed rather than get drafted.

"Suicide" by others. So much for the Talmud's teaching of “Take heed to yourself and guard your life diligently”. Nobody will kill them, LaC. They will be fined, incarcerated, forced, deprived of state benefits, or all of the above. This is not Germany 1930s, Non-Haredim are not the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei, and to think other wise is to enter the realm of group lunacy.

Unfortunately, the state doesn't realize how adamant the haredim are on this topic.

I guess the few threads posted in last 48 hors, the dozens and dozens archived in the FA forums, and anything brought up by Google (haredi+tal+law), which denotes the awareness of the Israel Government about the Haredi/Tal law problem, has eluded you by a mile?.

They are going to mobilize international media and international opinion to fight their cause. They will begin a world-wide media onslaught explaining that they want nothing to do with the Israeli army and the illegal occupation.

So, they will try to gather international pity, sympathy and support by presenting themselves as what they are, Extremist religious, anti-Israel (hello Neturei Karta‎!), welfare recipients, misogynistic little girls attackers, liberty and free thought censors, military draft dodgers that would allow themselves to be killed rather than defend Judea by enemies internal and abroad.

Yes, the pity, sympathy and support will be pouring in, specially from the US, Military friendly, Conservative Right, that has procured over 30 billion dollars in military aid.

Red Cross, Human Rights organizations, Free Speech groups?,... Yeah, they will trample themselves over to run over there, with such a clean record the Extremist Haredim have (stoning fellow Jews and their families for driving in during Shabbos?. Yes, that will be the deal breaker).

The World Media?. Hmm, Haredi Draft dodging (...meh...) or Haredi Crimes ("Pedophiles?, victim intimidation?, NY D.A./the Rabbinate protecting them?, Haredi blogs calling for the killing of news reporters [Yaron London]?, Haredi extortion scams?, Haredim attacking Women, adult and toddlers?, Haredim Gangs [Sicarii, Gerrorists, Tzfatis]?, the "Haredi Modesty Patrol"?. Stop the presses!!!").

In the end, the Israeli government will relent, because the negative publicity will be too much for them.

No, if anything, the Israeli Government will balk away from it because of the influence of the Extremist Religious politicians within it (see this thread's title, "Haredi Pol Says Drafting Haredim Is “Bloodshed, Incest, and Idolatry”).

This is what I'm hearing from my haredi contacts.

You need better Haredim contacts. Delusional morons are not a good source of information or reference to present your "news" on this, or any other forum, bubbe.

[Bob Guthrie]

Posted by: Lubavitchers are Christians
The plan is being set in motion. The haredim will allow themselves to be killed rather than get drafted.

Hmm. Bubbe?, have you heard of the Netzah Yehuda Battalion?. Naw, I din't think so. The thought of 1000 Haredim strong military battalion would just make your brain explode.

From the Internet (OooOh, Magic!):

"A third (Haredi) Combat Unit, Mivtzayit, was opened in October 2009, due to the large number of soldiers joining the battalion in the most recent drafts." So, what are the excuse of those other 5,000+ Extremists Haredim protesters?. Why doesn't Shas Party Chairman Eli Yishai acknowledge this Military unit?. Are they guilty of "Bloodshed, incest and idolatry"?.

What are your thoughts of this bit of news for you, Lubavitchers are Christians?, or do we wait until you call your Rebbe for "your" counter-argument "rebuttal"?.

Putz.

[Lo K'darkah]

Eli Yishai is a dumb racist good-looking prick. He is only in the Knesset because the people who vote for him are dumber and uglier than he is. You can't spout mindless politically correct right-wing bullshit bravado on the one hand and yet fight against enlistment on the other. Well, you can, but it means you're a hypocrit.
If you think the army is treif, Yishai, where is your peace plan? What alternative are you offering? How are you harnessing the spiritual energies of all the Torah scholars you claim to represent towards a meaningful dialogue with Islamic figures, so that "maybe" our grandchildren will not have to give up their youth to military service? Ah, that's right, you're a mindless goy-hating arsehole without a single original thought in your shayne ponim and with nothing to contribute except your own inflated ego and it's Neanderthal opinions.
Sorry, but this guy makes my flesh crawl.