German Court Bans Infant Circumcision

A regional court in Cologne has ruled that the "fundamental right of the child to bodily integrity” outweighs the rights of his parents to have him circumcised.

 

German Court Bans Infant Circumcision
Shmarya Rosenberg • FailedMessiah.com

A regional court in Cologne has ruled that the "fundamental right of the child to bodily integrity” outweighs the rights of his parents to have him circumcised.

"The religious freedom of the parents and their right to educate their child would not be unacceptably compromised,” the court wrote, “if they were obliged to wait until the child could himself decide to be circumcised.”

There is no law prohibiting male infant circumcision in Germany, and the ruling is not binding for other German courts.

But it does set a precedent that could – and may very well be – be used by other German courts.

The ruling was issued in a case against a doctor who circumcised a four-year-old Muslim boy at his parents request.

A few days after the circumcision, the boy was rushed to a hospital by his parents because of heavy bleeding from the circumcision site. State prosecutors later charged the doctor with inflicting grievous bodily harm on the child.

A lower court acquitted the doctor, ruling that he had acted on the instructions of the boys parents and therefore was not guilty.

The regional court heard the case on appeal from the state. It also acquitted the doctor, but only because it found that existing laws that govern circumcision were too unclear to hold the doctor responsible for the injury. The court then ruled that circumcising a minor child who is too young to legally consent was inflicting grievous bodily harm on the child.

"The body of the child is irreparably and permanently changed by a circumcision. This change contravenes the interests of the child to decide later on his religious beliefs,” the court wrote.

The ruling would not impact circumcisions done for medical reasons.

Germany's Jewish community is outraged.

The president of Germany's Central Council of Jews, Dieter Graumann, labeled the ruling “unprecedented and insensitive.” He called on Germany’s parliament to clarify the legal situation "to protect religious freedom” – i.e., the right to have infants circumcised – “against attacks,” USA Today reports.

Comments

[seymour]

I wonder what the court would have said if this was a frum kid and MP was done

[בעל קרי]

After saying all the obvious remarks like.... "Those nazi bastards" ect. Even adding the words that, I have absolutely no רחמנות on any Jew who lives in that פארשאלטען land! It serves them right! A Jew has no business stepping foot in Germany other than if he were there to throw an Atom Bomb and destroy it forever!

Havin said all that! I'm wondering how many readers are reading this and thinking to themselves..... Oh I wish there would be laws like this here in this country!! How date they chopped my little head off when I was 8 days old taking with it 90% of the sensation!!!!!!

I wanna make a class action lawsuit against my מוהל!! Also I personally thing he took off too much of a big piece from me!!! Looks like Since my ברית was on a friday and he didn't yet have enuf meat for his Chulent so he went ahead and cut off a nice fat chunk of my little wiener so he had some עונג שבת and a fat delicious פיפיקעל for his chulent!

[ProudJew]

A new tactic to try to get Germany to be Judenrein.

Never forget! Never again!

[A. Nuran]

No, they aren't Nazis. They are applying German law consistently. And they're applying it to Jews and Muslims. They haven't made circumcision illegal.

[Litvish]

They will not outlaw circumcision. This is a regional court.

Just cool it, guys.

[jancsibacsi]

בעל קרי-I read the story this way the germans came out with this new decree because a moslem kid who was circumsized at the age of 4 got an infection and had to be hospitalized,
בעל קרי=- youre a mindless moron you dont sound or write like a normal human being go get help you putz.

[Malka Gittel]

The child was Muslim. If I recall correctly, infant circumcision is not a Muslim requirement, they often wait until a boy is older. So this ruling really doesn't affect Muslims anyway.

[Office of the Chief Rabbi]

The Cantors Assembly (the Conservative hazzanim) are en route to Germany right now for their convention.

Itinerary here:
http://www.ayelet.com/CA2012/CA2012-GERMANY_ITIN_updated_May_2012.pdf

[Yochanan Lavie]

Germany has done more to confront its Nazi past than Austria, Hungary, Romania,or conquered collaborating nations like France and Ukraine. I disagree with the ruling, but I don't think it was made with the intention of making Germany Judenrein.

[Max]

Today is a terrible day for Muslims in Germany. My bleeding heart goes out to those poor Muslims in Germany facing religious discrimination.

The dispicable haredim, on the other hand.... who the hell cares about them. Of course the whole circumcision thing should be banned, they cut off little boys' penises - those blood suckers, good for the Germans that they are finally standing up to those evil haredim.

[Rocky]

Proud Jew: Thousands of Israelis have moved to Germany in recent years. Germany has a special program for young Jews who want to move there and not just from Israel. In recent years, the percentage increase of Jews in Germany has been among the highest of any country in the world. Judenrein? Hardly. If you are looking for Judenrein, visit the City of Detroit. There are almost no Jews living south of Eight Mile Road, which is the city's northern boundary.

[Bob Guthrie]

Posted by: Malka Gittel
"The child was Muslim. If I recall correctly, infant circumcision is not a Muslim requirement, they often wait until a boy is older. So this ruling really doesn't affect Muslims anyway."

Yes, yes it does. By Khatna law, the parents can ask for the procedure to be performed as early as seven days after the birth (specially in the Shia community).

[ah-pee-chorus]

the ruling is reasonable. any male who wishes may be circumcised at age 16 or 18 for example .
and rabbinic judaism can easily come up with a ritualistic brit milah of sorts which doesnt include an actual removal of the foreskin but rather a symbolic one until he gets older. this protects a child from having his genitalia tinkered with in a major way before he's able to understand or consent.
i'm sure all those of you who disagree with me regarding bris would agree if we were talking about a non jewish father who wanted to cut off his 8 day olds thumb as part of HIS religious ritual. it simply cant be defended or permitted in civilized countries unless theres a clear, unequivocal medical basis/benefit for it.
in due time no western country will permit it and it will have nothing to do with anti-semitism.

[Sheketz Aroiss]

The blog master did not inject any personal commentary / animus. What's holding you back Scotty? Afraid that even this crowd is not yet ready to hear you rail against Bris Milah?

[PrettyBoyFloyd]

Apee, you tell yourself that, if it makes you feeeeeel good.

[Sheketz Aroiss]

"nothing to do with anti-semitism"

AyePeePee will no doubt be at the press conference where some bureaucrat will whip out the boilerplate line "you know, some of my best friends are Jewish"

At the gates of Hell, Abraham can still save a horrendous sinner as long as he did not attack Bris Milah. For some in this cess pool there is no hope whatsoever

[dh]

Same guys sucking when they're 16 or 18?

[Bob Guthrie]

Sheketz Aroiss

Hey, yenta, what part of "the law covers Jewish and Muslims" did you missed?.

Is "Nothing to do with anti-semitism" too hard to comprehend for you, bubbe, or do you need your Rebbe to skull blow you to gain more "insight"?.

[ah-pee-chorus]

PrettyBoyFloyd and Sheketz Aroiss -

what brilliant and cogent points you raised. its hard to argue with such logic.

AyePeePee will no doubt be at the press conference ...Posted by: Sheketz Aroiss

you'd fit right in and seem totally mature if only you were still in 3rd grade.
you make being frum look so appealing.

[Bob Guthrie]

PrettyBoyFloyd

And you, luminaire, you still haven't answered how do you extrapolate that Failed Messiah posting a news article about a truck driver helping a woman giving birth because his Orthodox Jew husband was unwilling to touch his birth giving wife for "Religious reasons" into "Aha!. Proof that Shmarya posting this news indicates that he hates Ultra-Orthodox Haredim!"?.

Is that train of thought not reached your brain yet, or are you just a gifted dullard?.

[ah-pee-chorus]

At the gates of Hell, Abraham can still save a horrendous sinner as long as he did not attack Bris Milah. For some in this cess pool there is no hope whatsoever

Posted by: Sheketz Aroiss

if not for the fact theres no hell and no biblical abraham your threat would be really scary. but i'm glad that at least it works for you.

[Bob Guthrie]

Here, Sheketz Aroiss and PrettyBoyFloyd, we gong to play a game called "comprehension". Can you say "comprehension", I knew you couldn't.

Here's another post that condenses the news into an easy to understand paragraph. Ready, read!.

Posted by: A. Nuran

"No, they aren't Nazis. They are applying German law consistently. And they're applying it to Jews and Muslims. They haven't made circumcision illegal."

Noo, not getting through. let's try another one:

Posted by: Litvish

"They will not outlaw circumcision. This is a regional court.
Just cool it, guys."

Okay, that should get you going for now. let's get you out of your straightjackets and see how you respond.

Showtime!.

[itchiemayer]

apc - no comparison between a thumb and foreskin. Weak example. I know that the mitzvah of bris milah means nothing to you, but then God doesn't mean anything to you either so as long as we don't let you secularists take over, we'll be ok. It is the godless that throughout history have caused more bloodshed and murder than any other group. Hitler, Stalin, Pot, et al..
I am not suggesting that you are an evil person, heaven forbid. However, Godlessness leads to lawlessness more than any other belief. To advocate for the outlawing of circumcision are fighting words for my side. Apc - do you get pleasure from tormenting those of us of the Jewish faith?

[ah-pee-chorus]

no comparison between a thumb and foreskin. Weak example

lets even assume that a thumb is worse. it shouldnt make any difference. would you permit a group of people to cut off their infants thumbs if they said it was part of their religion? if the answer is "no", then you cant honestly defend bris milah at 8 days. if your answer is "yes" you would permit it, then i suggest that position is immoral. which is it?

It is the godless that throughout history have caused more bloodshed and murder than any other group. Hitler, Stalin, Pot, et al..

that old gag. hitler was a believing christian who mentioned christianity in recorded speeches.

"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so."
— Adolf Hitler, to Gen. Gerhard Engel, 1941

"I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator."
— Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, p. 46

"I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Almighty Creator. By fighting the Jews, I am doing the Lord's work."
— Adolf Hitler, ibid. p. 65

the belt buckles of the SS said Gott mit uns" "God is with us."

so not only was he a theist, but his theism had a direct role in his killings.stalin and pol pot may have been atheists but atheism doesnt tell people to kill. in fact it tells people nothing since its just the position that there is no evidence for a god. history is filled with people killing in the name of god. recently we have had numerous homicide bombers in israel, iraq, india etc...and 9/11 all made possible by theists who are really doing gods will. so youd be better off not bringing up this point in the future. it doesnt help your case.

Godlessness leads to lawlessness more than any other belief.

another completely incorrect statement. the western countries with the highest rate of acceptance of evolution have the lowest crimerates and the countries with the highest belief in creation have the highest crime. the USA has the second highest level of belief in creationism and the highest crime of all western countries.
and in the US red states, with more churches and believers have more crime than blue states filled with godlessness. so if anything the opposite is true.

do you get pleasure from tormenting those of us of the Jewish faith?

no. i get pleasure from speaking my mind and hopefully getting some close-minded people to see that the moral position doesnt jibe with the religious position. that doesnt make it evil. but religious people have a hard time facing reality.
and if you would object to a father cutting off his sons thumb, would that be because you wanted to torment him?

[Bob Guthrie]

Posted by: itchiemayer
"but then God doesn't mean anything to you either so as long as we don't let you secularists take over, we'll be ok."

Yes because Extremist Christian Fundamentalists, the Opus Dei, the National Liberation Front of Tripura, Islamic Fundamentalists, Extremist Haredim, the Lord's Resistance Army, the religious branch of Sikh, Mormons (see "Mountain Meadows massacre"), etc,... are shining beacons of light that will guide the world to a prosperous future.

"It is the godless that throughout history have caused more bloodshed and murder than any other group. Hitler, Stalin, Pot, et al.."

Hitler was Catholic, Stalin became a proud Christian, and Pol Pot was raised Buddhist,... Care to try again?.

"I am not suggesting that you are an evil person, heaven forbid."

Oh, no, no. Calling him a "Godless, heathen secular that would wreck havoc on the world if secularism would take over" is a sweet term of endearment. A Hallmark moment.

"However, Godlessness leads to lawlessness more than any other belief."

What orifice did you pull out that statistic out of?. Reference link please?, otherwise you are full of it.

"do you get pleasure from tormenting those of us of the Jewish faith?.

He is not tormenting the Jewish faith (cut the drama), he is just stating his opposition to the procedure of circumcision, it's called "free speech".

Deal with it.

[Jake]

The founders of what is today Reform Judaism did away with Brit Milah in Germany, the home of Reform.

Reform did not believe that Jewish people had a covenantal relationship with god. Although the Catholics and Protedtants in Germany believed we had one at one point in time.

Figures that a ruling like this would happen in Germany.

Ancient Greeks/Romans outlawed Brit Milah, we are still around and doing well. Their civilizations are gone.

[David]

This is bad news. It would be relatively easy to argue to the Germans why religious groups such as Jews and Moslems should be allowed to continue male circumcision. However, the obscene, non-Halachic practice of frumma MBP which is strongly medically contraindicated is enough to swing the argument the other way. I can just see a German asking questions about MBP "You mean the mohel puts zee bleeding penis in zee mouth?".

Also, I wonder if the doctor that the Moslem used was not skilled in the procedure and made a balagan of it? It seems strange that the Germans want to ban circumcision when it is quite likely a botched medical procedure. Do they also ban other types of operations which occassionally get botched?

Moslems don't have professionals to do it as we do and often use regular medical doctors. I also know of a mohel who does do many Moslem circumcisions. Moslems have no set method for the circumcision so the standard medical procedure is all that is needed (which is a different method to the bris).

That aside, Jews should not live in places like Germany full stop.

[Jeff]

rabbinic judaism can easily come up with a ritualistic brit milah of sorts which doesnt include an actual removal of the foreskin but rather a symbolic one until he gets older

Forget about what happens when he gets older; I think it should be the ritual, period. If they insist upon doing it, let them go back to doing it the way it was done prior to the rise of the Hasmoneans; let them take a small, token piece from the tip.

But they won't, because they care more about custom than they do about "divine revelation".

[Jeff]

At the gates of Hell, Abraham can still save a horrendous sinner as long as he did not attack Bris Milah. For some in this cess pool there is no hope whatsoever

Posted by: Sheketz Aroiss | June 26, 2012 at 10:19 PM

Okay, that tears it. I tried to be cordial to you in the other thread, but you've just punched my number one button. Fuck off.

[Jeff]

Godlessness leads to lawlessness more than any other belief.

Posted by: itchiemayer | June 26, 2012 at 11:13 PM

1. Google crime statistics in Western Europe

2. Stop listening to neo-cons and evangelicals. They aren't right just because they're telling you what you want to hear.

[Haredi or not, here I come]

The German court could also apply this ruling affecting body integrity to clipping a child's toenails and fingernails or hair.

By extension, these should not be altered and we should all have 3 feet of hair and
17 inches of nails - isn't that how nature wants it?

[Shmarya]

The German court could also apply this ruling affecting body integrity to clipping a child's toenails and fingernails or hair.

By extension, these should not be altered and we should all have 3 feet of hair and
17 inches of nails - isn't that how nature wants it?

Posted by: Haredi or not, here I come | June 27, 2012 at 06:20 AM

This is perhaps the dumbest comment I've read this year.

If you are serious, if you really believe your comment, you need serious help.

[Haredi or not, here I come]

Oy, this was supposed to be sarcastic.
Maybe my sense of humor needs serious help.

[Yochanan Lavie]

I feel conflicted. As a believing Jew, I do believe that brit milah is an essential part of my religion, and is ordained by God. But I admit I cannot prove that on a rational basis. There are health benefits, but that is not the reason for Brit Milah, and there are also real risks. On the other hand, there is a very good case to made about consent, and the limits of how much we should tolerate religious practices.

Not a good analogy, but the British outlawed suttee, the ancient Hindu practice whereby live widows were placed on their husbands' funeral pyres. Hindus protested to the British Raj about the importance of maintaining their ancient customs. To which an official replied: "And it's our custom to hang murderers."

Now, I don't think Brit Milah is as bad as murder, or even FGM (which no religion, not even Islam, actually sanctions). But perhaps a compromise can be made along the lines that Jeff and APC suggest. Furthermore, there is no halachic necessity for MBP; it should be abolished full stop.

As for Deutschland, I would rather be a Jew there than almost any other non-English speaking country (except Israel). Jewish life is particularly vibrant in Berlin these days. The Germans are Israel's best and perhaps only ally in Europe. They are supplying Israel with high tech Dolphin subs that will enable it to mount a Second Strike (God forbid). The Germans, like other Europeans, are understandably nervous about unassimilated, increasingly radical Muslims in their midst. I think the ruling was meant to curtail Islam, with Judaism being just collateral damage.

Granted, there are a handful of Neo-Nazi losers in Germany, and some mercenary corporations who would deal with Iran or anyone else with money. But on the whole Germany has confronted its past more successfully than any other country I know.

[Apostate]

I don't understand the purpose of this bizarre custom. Why does god require a chunk of baby penis?

[ah-pee-chorus]

Jeff -

Sheketz Aroiss is archie. the pathetic loser keeps crawling back here using new aliases.

[Eve]

thanks a lot Yochanan Lavie for your comments.

[Jeff]

Granted, there are a handful of Neo-Nazi losers in Germany, and some mercenary corporations who would deal with Iran or anyone else with money. But on the whole Germany has confronted its past more successfully than any other country I know.

Posted by: Yochanan Lavie | June 27, 2012 at 07:25 AM

You're right, but I have heard that Neo-Nazism is on the rise there.

Fortunately, Germany is probably the most solvent Western European country right now, so the global economic collapse (hopefully) won't encourage Nazism as Germany's impoverished state did post-World War I.

[Baruch]

To be honest this ruling really does nothing. Inconvenient, yes, simply means that the bris will be held else ware, but it will not stop it. It does however show the black core of the German people.

[Jeff]

Sheketz Aroiss is archie. the pathetic loser keeps crawling back here using new aliases.

Posted by: ah-pee-chorus | June 27, 2012 at 08:05 AM

Again? I should have realized it. I didn't see it when he was Driving While Texting, either.

Sick man.

[Barry]

You cannot reconcile Brit Milah (or Schechita for that matter) with Western jurisprudence particularly as regards separation of Church and State.

In the US, a sort of messy compromise of reasonable accommodation was thought up to the effect that a religious practice which the majority see as irrational and harmful will be allowed if the harm is not to great. Accordingly male circumcision is allowed by female genital mutilation is prohibited.

The Europeans however stick to principles and will not allow the religious to even commit minor harms if irrational. They understand freedom of religion as being derived from freedom of speech or conscience. A Stalinist must not be punished for believing what he does and publicly demonstrating for what he believes. That does not mean he should be allowed to act on his beliefs. The same applies to Jews. A Jew can believe in the supremacy of halacha and pray for its imposition. That does not mean he should be allowed to act in accordance with it.

It cannot be doubted that separation of Church and State is generally good for society and Jews as a whole. The price for this may be the loss of Bris Milah and schechita but for most that is a price worth paying. Those not prepared to pay that price can always find somewhere else to live where separation of church and state are of no importance. The problem is that these places tend to be dangerous shit holes.

[ah-pee-chorus]

It does however show the black core of the German people.

Posted by: Baruch |

yep, protecting newborns from losing part of their penis is horrible. parents should be allowed to mutilate their childrens bodies any way they choose. only a country with a "black core" would say otherwise.
by the way, baruch, doesnt the USA forbid ritual female genital mutilation? it must be our black core.

[yis]

Hmmm... What specifically (and minimally) constitutes a valid brit and what specifically are the halachic ramifications of not having one?

[Rocky]

Baruch: Did you know that in the City of San Francisco, a citizen initiative to ban circumcision in the city received enough signatures to qualify for the ballot last year? Only a hastily passed state law prevented it from going before the voters.

So let's stop associating Germany and Germans with everything evil. I would add to Jeff's comment on Germany's solvency that it is in better financial shape these days than the US is. Yesterday, the Stockton, CA city council vote to put the city into bankruptcy protection this week. It is not the only American city in financial trouble these days. In addition, states such as California, Illinois and New Jersey have been lurching from financial crisis to financial crisis for several years and the US itself is now the most heavily indebted country in the history of the world. If the US experiences its own currency collapse (comparable to Germany's in 1923), it will be a bad day for the Jews.

[Sheketz Aroiss]

If I had to venture a guess as to why APC is so fanatically anti-Bris?

Paysach Krohn must've been his mohel and missed, instead doing a lobotomy like Hannibal Lecter did to Ray Liotta

[CutandKeynsian]

" would add to Jeff's comment on Germany's solvency that it is in better financial shape these days than the US is."

Germanys reactionary fiscal policies are damaging the world economy, and leading to suffering in Greece and other countries in Med europe that far exceeds the pain of circumcision.

[Jeff]

If the US experiences its own currency collapse (comparable to Germany's in 1923), it will be a bad day for the Jews.

Posted by: Rocky | June 27, 2012 at 12:07 PM

We're very nearly there. The derivatives dealt us (and all of the other countries and municipalities that invested in them) a fatal blow. We aren't coming back from this, and we're taking everyone else down with us.

[ah-pee-chorus]

sheketz/archie-

have you formed a group to urge world govts. to permit clitorectomies on little girls? you should get on it pronto.

[Jeff]

Hmmm... What specifically (and minimally) constitutes a valid brit

A small token piece of flesh can be removed from the tip. This appears to be the way it was done prior to the advent of the Maccabees, the Haredim of their day. However, if you ask a member of the Holy Racketeering Syndicate, he'll tell you that's a lie - then he'll lob a burning garbage can at you.

and what specifically are the halachic ramifications of not having one?

You aren't counted as a Jew, you can't be called to read from the the Torah, you can't marry a Jew or be buried in a Jewish cemetery, and of course, not only do you go to gehinnom for all of eternity, but every one of your ancestors going back to Sinai gets yanked out of heaven and cast down into the pit with you, where you are all forced to listen to Hasidic music 24 hours a day.

[Sheketz Aroiss]

Clitorectomies wouldn't be a bad idea in their home countries if it got Muslims to stop breeding terrorists

I guess that line about Anthony Hopkins' character got under your skin

[NotJoel]

Circumcision rates in the U.S. are plummeting. Something like 30% of newborn boys were circumcised in 2011, down from over 92% in 1990. The Western world sees this as a barbaric and brutal practice. The fact that people cannot justify it in their minds for religious reasons does not make it anti-semetic.

[Sheketz Aroiss]

NotJoel please take your seat on the San Francisco City Council, that bastion of "morality" that bans Bris Milah while glorifying gay abominations

[ah-pee-chorus]

archie-

i know why youre so angry. youre afraid a ban on milah will also make it illegal for you to get your weekly metzizah b'peh booster from your 'friend' the mohel. dont worry. that wont be affected.

[itchiemayer]

Hey Guthrie - Hitler and Stalin and Pot were Godless, end of story. By the way, I have no doubt Obama is godless as well.

You probably claim that Timothy Mcveigh was a practicing Christian as well. Ridiculous.

Moreover, Godlessness makes no sense whatsoever.

Any Jew against Bris Milah is a rasha.

San Francisco honours child pornographers on their city council. If you don't believe in God, you are a fool.

[NotJoel]

Sheketz, I'm not saying that I agree with it, just telling it like it is. And let's not get into a debate about morality...at least the homos in San Francisco are consenting adults.

[itchiemayer]

The godless have no morals. Godless morality is an oxymoron. Just because Hitler made comments about believing means nothing. He didn't believe in Christianity, he was God in his opinion.

[itchiemayer]

The godless are self-idolators. Believing in God means being able to look beyond your self. If you think there is no God, you worship man (yourself).

[joel]

I don't understand the big deal. They didn't outlaw circumcision. You can still do it for yourself. As for your kids you will just have to wait a few years until they can consent. Why do religious Jews feel threatened by this?

[ah-pee-chorus]

Hitler and Stalin and Pot were Godless, end of story

by all means, itchie, dont ruin your perfect record by letting facts get in the way of your proclamations.

I have no doubt Obama is godless as well.

i agree with you here. i think hes an atheist. and BTW, youre godless too , you just dont know it.

Moreover, Godlessness makes no sense whatsoever.

well that settles it. the only thing sensible to believe in is an imaginary friend in the sky. i am so screwed.

Any Jew against Bris Milah is a rasha

anyone in favor of permitting an adult to genitally mutilate an infant is a rasha.
and for the record, i'm not against bris milah under either of these conditions:

1. a token bit of flesh is removed which has no permanent impact on the natural integrity of the body, or...
2.any kind of circumcision you like once the child is old enough to decide for himself. just like a tattoo.

[ah-pee-chorus]

If you think there is no God, you worship man (yourself).

Posted by: itchiemayer |

wrong again, itchie. you dont believe in zeus or thor, does that make you a man-worshipping idolator? or a god worshipping idolator?

people who know theres no evidence to support a gods existence dont necessarily worship anything. but again, dont let anything change your mind from what youd like to believe in order to stay comfortably ignorant.

[ah-pee-chorus]

Just because Hitler made comments about believing means nothing. He didn't believe in Christianity, he was God in his opinion.

Posted by: itchiemayer |

'no true scotsman' much?

[NotJoel]

"The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity...." -Hitler, Night of 11th-12th July, 1941

He was religious when he had to be. One of his first official acts of intolerance was banning the Catholic League.

[itchiemayer]

So the Godless believe that the reason the Jews are still thriving in this world is merely chance and having nothing to do with God's promise that the Jewish people will never be destroyed. And that there is nothing special about being Jewish despite the disproportionate good we have done for humankind as compared to any other people.
Frankly, those two things defy any logic and the Godless try to explain them logically when they can't. I had one Atheist tell me that the Jews obviously had a great thirst for survival. What? Every people has a thirst for survival, so there must be something out of the natural order which explains why we are here. God promised, and it is so. It is so obvious to me, and I can't believe so many of you belittle this. The Torah is so full of obvious truths, you have to be intellectually dishonest not to see them. then again, self-idolators can't see beyond their own daled amos.

[Jake]

Most circumcisions in the United States are performed by physicians in hospitals.
Europe never developed the practice of circumcision amongst the native population.
Circumcised was a indicator fr the Nazis that someone was Jewish

[Jake]

Circumcision was practiced by the UK royal family until Prince William.

They were circumcised by a rabbi on the 8 th day after birt.

Lady Di raised a fuss and wouldn't permit it.

Note the rest of the UK does not circumcise. Except of course for Muslim and Jews.

[Bob Guthrie]

Posted by: itchiemayer
Hey Guthrie - Hitler and Stalin and Pot were Godless, end of story.

Wow, not a learner of history, are you?. "End of story", yeah, I will stop learning because some yenta told me so.

"By the way, I have no doubt Obama is godless as well."

So Barack Obama is a Godless mass murderer too? (what the hell does this have to do with a religious medical procedure?). Let's see: "US President Barack Hussein Obama II is a baptized member of the Trinity United Church of Christ, a predominantly African-American church with more than 8,500 members".

Wrong again, period.

"You probably claim that Timothy Mcveigh was a practicing Christian as well. Ridiculous."

I don't know what the frack this also as to do with the discussion on circumcision, but: "Timothy James McVeigh was a militia movement sympathizer who was a Roman Catholic. Before his execution, McVeigh took the Catholic sacrament of the Anointing of the Sick."

Hmm, wrong again, period.

"Moreover, Godlessness makes no sense whatsoever."

Yes, Extremist Fundamentalist Religion is the way to go, bubbe. How is that stoning of Women by Extremist Haredim working for ya?.

"San Francisco honours child pornographers on their city council."

You just given up, and trying to see what sticks, do you?.

Putz.

FYI, bubbe, I'm a baptized, practicing European Roman Catholic goyim, so that makes me an instant anti-semite for discussing your points, doesn't it?.

But, do go on =)

[Bob Guthrie]

By the by, itchiemayer, the discussion is still "German Court Bans Infant Circumcision", not your frothing beliefs against Godlessness.

Stay on target (which you will not, nach).

[Jake]

Some truthful information about circumcision world wide rather than people blowing out their a-holes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevalence_of_circumcision

[itchiemayer]

guthri - If you were truly a practicing Roman Catholic, you wouldn't be so obnoxious. You must be a Jesuit, they are the Godless Catholics.

[ah-pee-chorus]

Jews are still thriving in this world is merely chance and having nothing to do with God's promise that the Jewish people will never be destroyedPosted by: itchiemayer

god made lots of conditional promises saying that if youre good youll be plentiful like the stars (which couldnt happen) and if bad, not so much. so every eventuality is covered on the spectrum. you just have to adjust the level of goodness you ascribe to jews to fit our population. and if that impresses you, hinduism was before judaism and has many times more adherents so THAT must be gods word. hindus-the chosen people.
theres also continuous armenian, syrian and greek cultures.

the disproportionate good we have done for humankind as compared to any other people

that all depends on your definition and objectivity. the greeks brought us philosophy and democracy, arguably the most important contribution ever. so now the greeks must be the chosen people.

The Torah is so full of obvious errors, you have to be intellectually dishonest not to see them. and since your claim is an inerrant author, the torah can have 100 great truths(though i dont see many) and just a single error proves human authorship. so thats strike three.

[itchiemayer]

The Jews are threatened in every single generation, and there is no logical reason why there should be any of us left. God promised we would NEVER be destroyed. That God said if you do this, then that will happen is different than a clearly tangible, quantifiable promise.
How many adherents means nothing, I don't get your point on the hindus. You can argue philosophy and democracy are the most important contributions ever, but you would be wrong again.

[Sheketz Aroiss]

Is APC lying or just ignorant of evidence that the tops Nazis abandoned Christianity for occult practices?

[Sheketz Aroiss]

"obvious" errors that Schmos like APC contrive so that they feel less guilty pursuing worldly & carnal desires

[itchiemayer]

apc - your comments at 2:56 did not answer my points.

[itchiemayer]

"FYI, bubbe, I'm a baptized, practicing European Roman Catholic goyim, so that makes me an instant anti-semite for discussing your points, doesn't it?. posted by B. Guthrie

Guthrie - I get along famously with real Catholics, and people of faith overall. It is clear to me you are not either.

[Bob Guthrie]

Posted by: itchiemayer
I get along famously with real Catholics, and people of faith overall. It is clear to me you are not either.

Sure I'm not, itchiemayer, just because you said so, period ^.^

Here, old man, let me tell you a secret: I'm quite content with my religious life, and my relation to other religions. I. can't. stand. freaking degenerates that violate the tenants of any religion to their twisted needs, such as:

Extremist Christian Fundamentalists, the Opus Dei, the National Liberation Front of Tripura, Islamic Fundamentalists, Extremist Haredim, the Lord's Resistance Army, the religious branch of Sikh, Mormons (see "Mountain Meadows massacre"), et al,...

...And I definitely don't need an old puke like you to besmirch my relations to my faith, other ones, or G-d. If considered a sinner, I will be judged by G-d himself, not an old fanatic like you, comprende?.
...
Know that we have gotten that out of the way, shall we go back to the topic, itchiemayer? =) The topic is still:

Go.

[Bob Guthrie]

Sheketz Aroiss

Hey, bubbe!. Welcome to this thread!. Valid discussion or the tired besmirching of users while ignoring the articles' title?.

""obvious" errors that Schmos like APC contrive so that they feel less guilty pursuing worldly & carnal desires"

Besmirching. Well, at least you are consistent /=)

[itchiemayer]

Guthrie - I'm sure you are quite content with your religious life. If you are content, then you are not growing. If you are not growing, you are on a downward spiral. Try being spiritual, it could give you some happiness which you seem to be lacking at this time.

By the way, I am far from a fanatic, am not an old man, or old puke, or a bubbe, and I don't assume non-jews are anti-semites. You clearly are not good at reading people, not at all.

[Bob Guthrie]

Posted by: itchiemayer
"I'm sure you are quite content with your religious life."

No, no you are not, yubbie, you are just pulling that out of you arse.

You are not my spiritual guide nor G-d, so your views on my religion or spirituality is just a bunch of failed divinations. And you know what the Bible and Torah say about this kind of sortilege.

"By the way, I am far from a fanatic"

Fanatic (fuh-nat-ik) noun. A person with an extreme, obsessive, and uncritical enthusiasm or zeal, as in religion or politics.

Your continuous and obsesive ad nauseam posts on Godlessness to the point of having wandered off the original article a dozen posts ago sez otherwise.

"You clearly are not good at reading people, not at all."

Not trying to read you. Your posts are doing all the talking. Sad, isn't it?. Now, you counter-reply, itchiemayer (because you will reply, bubbe, guaranteed) =)

[Bob Guthrie]

(because you will reply, bubbe, guaranteed)

Or not, just trying to prove me wrong, but it will drive you up the wall. Either case, checkmate ^.^

[Lee]

I grew up in good ol' suburbia USA and I was shocked when I heard there were boys/men in Europe who were not circumcised. That piece of skin is totally in the way and can rip ad bleed profusely or otherwise get infected. To say that a boy is gonna wake up one day missing it, is totally wrong. It is a health issue, always has been and always will be. Those arguing against it are basing their arguments on looks, cosmetics etc. I don't see anyone trying to reconstruct a foreskin.

[itchiemayer]

Bob Guthrie = Godless Jesuit. Go find some real Catholicism and maybe you'll stop acting like an ass.

[Bob Guthrie]

Posted by: Lee
"I don't see anyone trying to reconstruct a foreskin.

*Sigh*
Foreskin Restoration (Wikipedia): (http://goo.gl/llES)

Or Google "Foreskin restoration". After the Wikipedia link on the top, you will find several page of results of Doctors, Medical institutions, and device sellers just dedicated to "Foreskin Reconstruction".

[Sheketz Aroiss]

Foreskin restoration is a serious crime as per Jewish law

[Bob Guthrie]

Posted by: itchiemayer
Bob Guthrie = Godless Jesuit. Go find some real Catholicism and maybe you'll stop acting like an ass.

Yes!. Expected, on cue response, and with insults to my religion(*) to boot!. Ooh, you must have been seething, waiting and wishing to reply >=)

Another post with Godless. No, nothing fanatical here ^.^

(*) So much for the Parashat Ekev and its teachings.

[Lee]

BOB's Post: *Sigh* Foreskin Restoration (Wikipedia):

Bob, that is like trying to undo your Judaism with a Catholic baptism! All jokes aside though, circumcision is scientifically proven to be healthier and anyone who would do a foreskin restoration procedure (please provide stats if you can instead of a wikipedia link merely describing the procedure) is doing it because somebody else made them feel badly about the way they "look". Sheer nonsense. Have a good night.

[itchiemayer]

Guthrie - Wrong, I am being critical of Jesuits, not legitimate members of the Catholic church.

[itchiemayer]

Guthrie - In fact, I was praising Catholics because the pious ones I know are good, moral people. They do, however, roll their eyes at the mention of Jesuits.

[Yoel Mechanic]

f they insist upon doing it, let them go back to doing it the way it was done prior to the rise of the Hasmoneans; let them take a small, token piece from the tip.

Posted by: Jeff | June 27, 2012 at 04:41 AM
========================================
Interesting. Do you have a reference that this was the way it used to be done?

[Jeff]

Abracadabra found a few references recently:

Breaking! Herpes Risk 3.4 Times Higher For Babies Who Get Metzitzah B'Peh During Circumcision, CDC Says

[Brian]

apc - your comments at 2:56 did not answer my points.

Posted by: itchiemayer | June 27, 2012 at 03:05 PM

Ok then... let me have a go!

So the Godless believe that the reason the Jews are still thriving in this world is merely chance and having nothing to do with God's promise that the Jewish people will never be destroyed... Every people has a thirst for survival, so there must be something out of the natural order which explains why we are here. God promised, and it is so

This is the classic "Silent Evidence" argument, as proposed by Nassim Taleb (and others before him, but in my opinion not as well).
He describes the following story from Cicero:

Diagoras, a nonbeliever in the gods, was shown painted tablets bearing the portraits of some worshippers who prayed, then survived a subsequent shipwreck. The implication was that praying protects you from drowning.
Diagoras asked, “Where are the pictures of those who prayed, then drowned?”

The fact of Jewish survival throughout the generations only seems inevitable because we are presented with only the samples of religions that have survived until this day.

And because we cannot fully understand the cause-and-effect of the chaos of human history, we start looking for reasons that we're still around as a people. "Because God promised we wouldn't be destroyed". Such attempts to rationalize are nothing but superstitions.

B.F. Skinner did an experiment with pigeons to show where superstitions originate from. He took some normal pigeons, with normal behaviour, and stuck them in a cage with a dispenser that dispensed food through a hole every 15 seconds. After about an hour, the pigeons (who had no conception of cages, experiments or automatic food dispensers) stared developing unusual patterns of behaviour (such as turning around 3 times and then looking at the hole, or pecking a certain corner of the cage and then looking at the hole.) Why? Because they were performing random actions about the cage when food first arrived at the hole, so they believed that repeating that exact same action would cause the food to come out again, and lo- it did!

Believing that Jews are still around because of what was written in a 3,000 year old anthology of folk tales is no different from that pigeon walking around the cage.

More to follow in the next posts.

[Brian]

The Torah is so full of obvious truths, you have to be intellectually dishonest not to see them.
Posted by: itchiemayer | June 27, 2012 at 02:20 PM

Tell you what, itchiemayer, you name 3 obvious truths from the Torah that you think people aren't seeing, and i'll let you know what I make of them.

[Brian]

BTW my personal views on circumcision? Very pragmatic; Do it properly (with no genital mutilation or penis sucking) and you should be absolutely fine. This wasn't an issue before babies started dying through infections and excessive blood loss.
Botched botox injections and screwed up plastic surgery haven't called into question the entire ideology of elective cosmetic surgery in the same way that botched circumcisions have called into question bris milah (although I DO realize that the arguments are not equal because babies cannot consent). I believe the issue is with some religious nutcases who suck penises and mutilate children, and not with the entire ritual (so call me an apologist, I suppose I am)...

[Eve]

There are lots and lots of discussions going on in Germany. And it is not just the orthodox Jewish community and Muslims who are protesting the ban.

Below is the statement of the World, European and German Union for Progressive Judaisms statement to the ban of circumcision:

"The World Union for Progressive Judaism, representing 1.8 million Jews in 45 countries and 1,200 communities on six continents around the world, expresses its shock and outrage at the recent German court decision outlawing the practice of circumcision on religious grounds. Since the rule of the Assyrian-Greek King Antiochus Epiphanes circa 165 BCE, various governments have imposed bans on circumcision in attempts to eliminate or delegitimize the practice of the Jewish religion. The fact that not 70 years after the Holocaust, Germany joins this ignominious company, is nothing less than shocking.

The notion that parents do not have the right to initiate their children into the sacred rites of their respective religions is an affront to human liberty. This is all the more true when the religious practice arguably has significant health benefits for the child.

The healthy lives led by millions upon millions of circumcised Jewish males over the course of history, renders the court's argument that circumcision causes irreparable bodily harm, absurd. In addition there is very strong medical evidence that there are significant health benefits to circumcision: Lower incidence of HIV, less risk of other urinary tract infections, less incidence of penile cancer, and far lower rates of cervical cancer among women whose sexual partners have been circumcised.

For 4000 years Jews have considered male circumcision an essential part of our Covenant with the Almighty. We urge the courts and the government of Germany to act with all due haste to reverse this decision and the fundamental threat it represents to the foundation of our religious beliefs.

Rabbi Stephen Lewis Fuchs, President

Michael Grabiner, Chair

Leslie Bergman, President, European Union for Progressive Judaism (EUPJ)

Dr. Philip Bliss, Chair of Advocacy Committee

Sonja Guentner, President, Union of Progressive Judaism (UPJ), Germany — with Upj Netzer Deutschland."

[Jeff]

For 4000 years Jews have considered male circumcision an essential part of our Covenant with the Almighty.

Great. They don't believe in Torah m'Sinai, they've dispensed with 1,500 years of halakhic decisions (neither of which I have a problem with) - but this they decide to hold onto. This, they consider indispensable.

They haven't agreed with the Orthodox on a single thing in 200 years; now, mitten derinnen they find they have common ground - and it's genital mutilation.

If I weren't convinced that every other religion is just as absurd, I'd convert.

[itchiemayer]

1. Again, that we would NEVER be destroyed. All the logic in the world will not work in explaining that God's promise is absolute truth and that is why we still survive despite being the object of wrath for thousands of years. It defies all logic that we are still here.

2. The Torah tells us that the Jewish people will be scattered throughout the world. This has happened and we still maintain our identity as one people. If there was not a special spark within the Jewish people, this would be virtually impossible to accomplish. Coincidence? I think not.

3. The Torah tells us that the Jewish people will return to its homeland, the Land of Israel. This has not yet happened entirely, but it has started. Despite being dispersed throughout the world, the Jews have maintained a love for Israel that is unmatched by any other people for any other nation.

4. That we will be a light unto the Nations. I will be the first to admit that at this point in our history, we are on a relatively low level. However, our contributions to mankind have been great, all the moreso when you consider how small a nation we are. Einstein, Oppenheimer, Maimonades, Salk, and we can go on for hours. We are a great nation, a special nation, with the responsibility of setting the example for the world.

5. Look in Genesis and what it says about Ishmael. Lucky prediction? I think not.

6. A bonus for you: On the Shabbos before 09/11/01, we read from parshas Ki Savo. There are passages from the rebuke that describe almost to a tee what did actually happen on 09/11/01.

I must note that in order to acknowledge the truth of the Torah, one has to be able to look beyond their biases and to overcome their haughtiness.

[Jeff]

I must note that in order to acknowledge the truth of the Torah, one has to be able to look beyond their biases

And again, I have occasion to say it - fundamentalists have no sense of irony.

Apparently, also, the teaching of the concept of projection is assur in both Haredi and evangelical schools.

[itchiemayer]

A self-idolator can't see beyond their own self. Someone who believes in God is able to look beyond themselves, which takes a measure of humility.

I am neither fundamentalist, nor did I ever attend a Chareidi school.

[ah-pee-chorus]

: itchiemayer -

if you want to read a fairly in-depth discussion of the points you raise as well as my responses, check here...youre using every means possible to avoid reality.

http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2010/11/debate-christopher-hitchens-v-tony-blair-on-the-validity-of-religion-234.html

[Jeff]

I am neither fundamentalist

Yeah, you are. You just don't see it. You don't see a lot of things.