Video: More Than 1000 Hasidim Come Out To Support Alleged Child Rapist

More than 1000 hasidim came to an event hall in Brooklyn last night to give money to the legal defense fund for Rabbi Nechemya Weberman, a hasidic unlicensed therapist who is accused of raping a girl over a period of four years beginning when she was 12-years -old.

 

[Video below.]

About 100 protesters across the street from the event objected to the haredi community's decision to support Weberman while doing nothing to support or help his alleged victim.

Haredi PR flack Yossi Gestetner, presented as a supporter of Weberman's but almost certainly an undeclared paid spokesman for a group that is defending him, lied on air, telling Fox News that no one in the haredi community is saying that crimes should not be reported to police.

Gestetner also said that haredi support for Weberman is all about innocent until proven guilty.

But that magnanimous behavior Gestetner disingenuously pimps stops before it gets to alleged victim. If Weberman is to be given the benefit of the doubt, so should she. And therefore she should be treated with kindness, helped, and supported until (at least) the trial is over.

But what Yossi Gestetner and the hasidim he's representing really mean is that even though they have no evidence to support their belief, Weberman is innocent and that girl is guilty. He's a saint and she's a whore. He's telling the truth and she is lying. And nothing, not even a guilty verdict, will change that.

 

Comments

[Eli, what me messiah?]

Disgusting.
"fundraising" implies a belief in the cause, which is that the alleged perp is innocent and worthy of receiving the funds.
You said it well. Innocent until proven guilty does not mean lack of respect for the alleged victim.
The lack of basic human decency is just disgusting.

[ZIY]

For all the Weberman defenders out there, i will ask you one simple question:

Since Weberman obviously did not fully adhere to the laws of Yichud (for if he did, there would have been witnesses etc.) - isn't he at least guilty of breaking hilchos Yichud?

& isn't it true that AL PI TORAH & HALACHAH, anyone who transgresses hilchos Yichud & is alone in a room with a woman for the amount of time of "boiling an egg" is ipso facto considered chashud (suspect. i.e. considered guilty) to znus (illicit fornication)?

& doesn't hilchos yichus certainly apply to any young female bas mitzvah age & older - the exact age of the victim?

What do you respond to this???

[PoorShowing]

How many people came out for the counter protest. A prior poster said it was 6 - 8 people. Is that correct?

[Yosef ben Matitya]

kehal sdom!

[barry]

CBS have video showing Weberman present at fund raising

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quDjzr07Vdg&feature=relmfu

[A. Nuran]

But nobody supports the victim. That's abominable.

[Isa]

"""""How many people came out for the counter protest. A prior poster said it was 6 - 8 people. Is that correct?

Posted by: PoorShowing | May 17, 2012 at 05:56 AM """"""

About 100 protesters across the street from the event objected to the haredi community's decision to support Weberman while doing nothing to support or help his alleged victim.

I guess 'Poorshowiing' has poor eyesight!

[Steven]

The important thing is that he is going to trial and hopefully the correct verdict will be reached, whatever that may be.

[Hometown Postville]

Fundraising? Or another opportunity for money laundering? I learned that from all the "fundraising" done for SMR. Seems like they rally behind anything that degrades a female or juvenile male.

[Korbendallas72]

No longer Jews. Sodomites. Monsters. This is one of the most disgusting displays of evil that has ever been committed in the name of God and every single one of these demonic animals are going to burn in hell.

Satmar, yemacb shemo
Teitelbaum, yemacb shemo

[Korbendallas72]

Satmar, yemach shemo
Teitelbaum, yemach shemo

May the Holy One make his name known again. May he strike down the Satmar where they stand.

[Lk]

How are the hasids justifying this?

[seymour]

this event was not just to raise defense money for a person who is presumed innocent until proven guilty. if that was the case a fund raiser could have been done quietly and a rally not held. no, this was done to harrass the the girl and her family to show that the whole community is against them.

in addition history has shown even when the person gets convicted it makes no difference to the community (Kolco, moncrowits and many others). The convicted person it still to be pitted and pidyam shuvaim are arranged and so on. And in kolcos case the victims are treated much worse than Kolco is and Margolis who protected him

The victim and the family including siblings are still shunned and worse. Like maybe not finding a yeshiva that would accept them.

How come we never ever see a rally for victims of abuse or a general fund raiser for the victim and family. No, all efforts go to the abuser.

for those who claim it is only about innocent until proven guilty are fooling no one. not only are you not fooling Jews even the gentle case see right through this

[maven]

Oy me haya lanu.
How is it that Judaism has so transformed over the last 20 years that it is unrecognizable?

[thinking outloud]

Let's not forget...
GUILTY UNTIL PROVEN INNOCENT,

oops, I Meant

INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY.

His supporters have a right to rally behind him... They'll have to come up with some good double talk if and when he is convicted, but until then they are justified in their actions. As are the counter protesters.

[ShowMeTheMoney]

Just how much money will the liarslawyers make on this case to need so much money?

If there is DNA evidence then it is a done deal, else it is a he said/she said case with an added issue of why if she was abused did she continue to see him? Doesn't look like a case with dozens of witnesses so why should it take so long and be so expensive?

[Chaim]

"Great article !!! I think you will like this one too...

Jewish communities

"

[Rochel]

This event was not just to raise defense money for a person who is presumed innocent until proven guilty. if that was the case a fund raiser could have been done quietly and a rally not held. no, this was done to harrass the the girl and her family to show that the whole community is against them.
Posted by: seymour | May 17, 2012 at 08:46 AM

Seymour, I so agree with you! This was a stepped-up mass intimidation action. I wonder how much this event was as a result of the NY Times articles.

I am sooo disgusted about this, I don't even have words. Disgusted, disgusted, disgusted, I have no words ....

For those that went to the counter-demonstration, bravo to you. Your signs were good - a simple message repeated in very clear colors and font! A united message and front. It came across very clear in the video and news reports I saw on TV. Know that there are many people supporting your actions. Keep strong and please continue.

This is the link to the 6pm version of the story. It does a good job of pointing out that this story is bizarre and that most people at this 'fundraiser' don't personally know either side but are so sure the accusation is a false story and are supporting the accused.:
http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/local/new_york&id=8662864

[Yosef ben Matitya]

thinking outloud
"His supporters have a right to rally behind him...As are the counter protesters"?
not really, TOL, not when they (the supporters) are doing it in the name of g-d's torah.
not when a very likely victim's blood is being spilled in the process.
what message are they giving to other victims?
"dare complaining and we will all -rabbis and all- be after you?"
that's very ugly. trashcans of humanity.

[Yosef ben Matitya]

trashcans of humanity.
my earlier comment,
not that I needed any more proof.

[Bassy the Haredi Slayer]

"Satmar, yemach shemo
Teitelbaum, yemach shemo

"May the Holy One make his name known again. May he strike down the Satmar where they stand."

במהרה בימינו אמן

[Yochanan Lavie]

Satire:

Maybe the bochur is innocent because the so-called victim lead him on.

End satire.

[maven]

yochanan, that line didn't work very well for gafni in a similar (though less horrific)circumstance.

[chaim36]

Where was the rebbee ? Why didn't he stop this lunacy? Amazing they are on sect. housing, ssi, food stamps, medicaid etc. and now they were able to collect $500,000. WOW!

[Joe Field]

There is always a shocking first, up to now when there was a charge of molestation or rape the orthodox Jews quietly helped the offender to escape justice. Finally they decided that they will have a get-together and tell the world they stand with the rapist. A new generation, they don’t even have the decency to hide their contempt for everyone who doesn’t want to subrogate themselves to the Leadership/Rabbis.

[If we only accept the torah law]

if to follow the Torah
this weberman would be really punished.
in that case he would have to marry the girl with no option of divorce.
and she could have make his living hell.

[WoolSilkCotton]

++seymour | May 17, 2012 at 08:46 AM ++

Excellent analysis. The purpose of the rally was to intimidate the victim and the victim's family.

[Rochel]

Here is the NY Times article on this event. The article really makes us Jews sound wacky. I like that a former catholic priest came out to help support the victim. Hopefully these counter-protests will continue.:

It was a scene of anger and division over the issue of child sexual abuse that residents of the insular neighborhood of Williamsburg, Brooklyn, said they had never before seen. In front of the Continental catering hall on Rutledge Street, where the fund-raiser was being held, a tightly packed crowd of Hasidic men who supported the accused man, Nechemya Weberman, stood and stared down the young woman's supporters, who stood behind police barricades."Protect victims, not abusers," their signs said.

"I'm here to support the young girl, the victim, who has been vilified and dragged through the mud," said Robert H. Hoatson, a former Catholic priest who stood with ultra-Orthodox supporters of the girl, other victims of child sexual abuse and their advocates.

At about 8 p.m., a Hasidic man from the fund-raiser rushed the protesters' barricades. The police grabbed him, put him in handcuffs and led him away.

Two women who supported Mr. Weberman said that he was a good man, and that they did not believe he was capable of sexual abuse. They called the girl a liar and got into a dispute with Pearl Engelman, a victims' advocate who was at the protest.

"How do you know he is innocent?" Mrs. Engelman asked. "Because you know him? That is proof?"

Members of the ultra-Orthodox community who report abuse cases to the police, rather than allowing rabbinical authorities to handle the matters, regularly face harassment, and it is not unusual for ultra-Orthodox synagogues in the New York area to take up collections for the defense of those accused.

The fund-raiser was held to support Mr. Weberman, 53, an unlicensed therapist who has been indicted on charges that he sexually assaulted a girl, starting when she was 12, during sessions intended to promote her religious practice. His trial is set to begin as early as June.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/17/nyregion/supporters-clash-at-event-for-ultra-orthodox-man-accused-of-sexual-assault.html

[chussid]

Shamarya

I was thinking through this asifa. I decided that the fact that the Hassidim support Weberman in public has to mean something. Why not just sit on the fence? Why not give him money quietly?

The answer is that the Hassidim who made this asifa know something that we don't They need to make the asifa in public to communicate a message. Whats the message? That coming out about abuse will lead to ostracism and communal scorn. Why would they want to send this message? There's only one answer. There's an informational disparity between us and them. They know that behind Weberman are 1000 other cases of abuse. So much that they need to stand and fight on the Weberman issue to shut down other potential victims. If it was just Weberman, any rational person would cut him loose. He's a liability. But no, there must be others. The satmar and asifah75 people have tipped their hand. They know that the extent of their liabilities goes FAR beyond Weberman. I would humbly suggest that there's more CSA than even this blog reports. I was not convinced of this line of reasoning until this alilas75. But now I see that it cannot logically be otherwise.

[blessed to be secular and proud]

that's why the haredi community is messed up .
haredi rather clear a rapist who will keep raping than giving justice to an innocent girl .
that's why molesters and rapists are loose on their haredi streets , shuls, schools ,
simha halls, and visiting the victims houses .

[Deremes]

First hand report:

I was there and so were thousand'S of people,again,not more then ONE thousand attended but thousand'S.To give you an idea there was no parking available in the 5-6 blocks and the block were the hall is you just couldn't walk becuase of the huge crowd so you could just imagine how many were IN the hall.
The filthy Nuchem Rosenberg crowd who protested they were probably about 10-15 the max 20 ok i give you 30.IF there was over 30 people who protested I will give to the girls family $1000.00 so whoever told you that about 100 protesters is lying to you.

The reason why thousand'S attended is as following:on a daily basis there are in willamsburg,boro park,monsey probably 5 to 10 tea parties (we call it a tea party) the number 5 to 10 is in each neighborhood.Different causes such as for sick people or helping people with money for a weeding.Its done most of the time in private houses an at times in a hall.Someone who is good can gather a crowd of 200 people someone who is very good 500 people someone who is extremly good and has status in the community can gather a crowd of about thousand people.

As soon as people found out that the street is full of the media with the few sick Nuchem Rosenberg Crowd everyone knew they must attend.
I was not thinking of going as im not going only to people that i know well. I figured they will anyways come to me in shull for money and will give them $100 to $200. I knew those sickos with media is there i took a fat check book and wrote out a nice amount to support the man and to show the media that these few sickos is NOT what the community is.

If he is guilty or not not you folks and not I know.I do know that just as you folks have a right to believe he is guilty becuase he is charadei then I have a right to believe that he is innocent becuase he is charadei.

PS I try not to comment on FM anymore becuase מרדכי סטמר
opened my eyes on another thread below were every word he writes is so true:

http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2012/05/politicians-take-sides-in-satmar-turf-war-123.html#comments

[Joe Field]

I wish I have the energy to organize with victims of the Catholic Church, to come and protest inform of Satmar shul maybe that would put some pressure on these idiots.

[LikeItIs]

they were able to collect $500,000. WOW!

Posted by: chaim36 | May 17, 2012 at 10:42 AM

I find that hard to believe! That kind of money could almost pay most people off to drop the charges. Anyway, this shows the power of organization and why the chassidim get so far. Most people are a lonely disconnected collection of sheep with almost no power or willpower - goodness look at the Failedmessiah crowd. We knew about the counter protest but did anyone get off their rocking chairs to attend? NO!.

[blessed to be secular and proud]

the press invaded the quiet, boring satmar community , where nothing never happens .
the commotion , the secular ppl taking the streets and protest.

look at those payes hanging neat , well curled up . fancy .

' moshiah' is here , def .

[LikeItIs]

the press invaded the quiet, boring satmar community , where nothing never happens .
the commotion , the secular ppl taking the streets and protest.

look at those payes hanging neat , well curled up . fancy .

' moshiah' is here , def .

Posted by: blessed to be secular and proud | May 17, 2012 at 11:37 AM

Best for them to hunker down and weather the storm and before you know it, the press will have something else to be busy with. Shavous is almost here and they should be busy with that - it is a three day yom tov this year so lots of cooking to do.

[jancsipista]

Deremes-Beyond the shaddow of a doubdt he is guilty,it is a no brainer why in the universe were they willing to give a half a million to the girl for her not to press charges its not because he is innocent for sure.by they an aunt of my mother is a weberman and i am sure he is guilty as hell.

[chussid]

Why pay 500k to protect some inconsequential shmuck like Weberman? It doesn't make sense unless you think that there's an information disparity between us and them. They know that behind Weberman are 1000 other cases of abuse. So much that they need to stand and fight on the Weberman issue to shut down other potential victims. This is the only way to think about alilas 75. Its a tacit admission that Weberman is one of many many cases of abuse. I didn't believe the rot was so deep until I saw this alilas 75. There is no other way to think about it.

[dh]

Why?

[dh]

The "why " query was to jancs.

[blessed to be secular and proud]

if we only accept the torah law,

get your bearings together .
the raped girl cannot marry her rapist .
she'll be suffering every day of her life .

this is not consensual sex . it's rape .

[chussid]

Why is it an admission? Because you need to think about the rational options of a rational person. If you want to support Weberman, do it quietly. But why support him at all? Hes expendable. He can be cut loose. The only way to think about it is that, if they don't shut down the accusers of Weberman by sending a crystal clear public message, then they will be dealing with an even bigger pigf*** than Weberman. The alternative to supporting him is worse than the clearly irrational activity of supporting him. Why? Because there are many many more like him. If people don't see a sea of black coats whipped into a violent frenzy ostracizing them from the community, they might accuse too. And if enough of them do that, the legal liability becomes too big to stanch with just an asifah.

[Jeff]

This is one of the most disgusting displays of evil that has ever been committed in the name of God and every single one of these demonic animals are going to burn in hell.

Satmar, yemacb shemo
Teitelbaum, yemacb shemo

Posted by: Korbendallas72 | May 17, 2012 at 08:24 AM

KBD, don't say that! I'll be there, and why would you wish them upon me?

[Korbendallas72]

goodness look at the Failedmessiah crowd. We knew about the counter protest but did anyone get off their rocking chairs to attend? NO!.Posted by: LikeItIs | May 17, 2012 at 11:32 AM

The pen is mightier than my ass.

[jancsipista]

dh-Whats the why for?

[LikeItIs]

The pen is mightier than my ass.

Posted by: Korbendallas72 | May 17, 2012 at 12:29 PM

Well sticking your pen up your ass wont accomplish anything.

[Jeff]

This event was not just to raise defense money for a person who is presumed innocent until proven guilty. if that was the case a fund raiser could have been done quietly and a rally not held. no, this was done to harrass the the girl and her family to show that the whole community is against them.

Posted by: seymour | May 17, 2012 at 08:46 AM

Agree completely.

[Truth]

. I wonder how much this event was as a result of the NY Times articles.

Fascinating if they were the catalyst for the show of support and outpouring of all that money!

[chussid]

I wonder how much this event was as a result of the NY Times articles.

I think 100%. The NYT article showed that there's broad support for people coming out with these accusations. The Satmar game is now going to be to show that whatever support FM and NYT are gonna give, they won't compare to a thousand angry black clad youths who are essentially hoodlums, with open checkbooks and closed fists, doing damage control for the rebbe. This is why the Satmar people on this site keep saying that theres 1000000 of them and one of us. Because they need to intimidate and scare potential accusers and cow them into silence.

[Jeff]

Posted by: Deremes | May 17, 2012 at 11:30 AM

Wow. Just - wow. A masterpiece of denial.

As I watched the video, I thought of how much like North Korea it is - the uniformity of thought, unquestioning loyalty to the group and its leaders, the savage ferocity with which anyone who threatens to reveal the facade is attacked. Then I read Deremes' latest screed. Even the irony of his pseudonym - I find myself asking, "Can this be real?"

Deremes, congratulations. Every time you open your mouth, you validate everything everyone here says about you and the way of life that has produced you - and of course, you're incapable of seeing it. You're a first-rate example of the success of the Satmar indoctrination program.

Your Reb Yoilish, wherever he is, must be kvelling.

[Proton Soup]

How are the hasids justifying this?

Posted by: Lk | May 17, 2012 at 08:27 AM

my guess is Rebekah

[jjj]

http://www.thelakewoodscoop.com/news/2012/05/larger-boat-chartered-for-sunday-due-to-overwhelming-demand.html

[Jeff]

What, there's a boat now? They're going for a cruise?

[Deremes]

Jeff-
You don't know me and i don't know you.
Whatever way of life i live im willing to bet that I am way more successful in my personal life then YOU jeff.
As most in here you probably live a miserable angry jealous life who is blaming the whole world for their personal failures.Someone who is happy with how life is shouldn't be posting hourly,daily gossip and slander about charadie Jews.Instead of blaming others go out and try to make yourself a good kind generous person.Negativity will get you nowhere.

[chussid]

As I watched the video, I thought of how much like North Korea it is - the uniformity of thought, unquestioning loyalty to the group and its leaders, the savage ferocity with which anyone who threatens to reveal the facade is attacked.

It isn't North Korea. It's an island in the middle of America . With a few million dollars and half a dozen people who care, it can be a lot more open and less evil and lemminglike in just a few years. The parents and zeides of these guys all spoke fluent Hungarian, half of them didn't know Yiddish. This is a twenty year old trend and its a lot more delicate than North Korea. Don't give up on your brothers. Like the heroic Mendellsohns and Euchels of yore, we need to face down the barking sea of black with the soothing and rational tones of cosmopolitanism and enlightenment. How about going back to our own rationalist tradition? How about teaching the Moreh and Seforno? Why not show these people that they can be every bit as Jewish and fulfill the commandments of the creator as modern, openminded men? Lets be mekarev these guys to Judaism. They are our brothers.

[John Nagle, Silicon Valley, CA]

The Catholic Church tried coverups, payoffs, and denial. It didn't work. Entire dioceses were forced into bankruptcy as they lost lawsuits. The Catholic Church has far less credibility, and far less political clout, than it did two decades ago. In some countries where it used to be dominant, like Ireland, it's now an embarrassment.

Institutions with problems like this have to fix them, or they go into a steep decline as the problems mount.

[Yaakov]

Deremes:

What if he is guilty? What if the girl is an innocent victim of a rapist?

I am very sad. This girl's life is ruined no matter what the outcome, and if this man is guilty the Satmar community has done a terrible thing to her.

What do we do if he is guilty? How do we fix it?

[A. Nuran]

Korbendallas72, sodomites prefer consensual sodomy with other adult sodomites. This is rape, extortion and undermining the Justice system. It is infinitely worse.

[Deremes]

Yaakov-
What did the wiilaimsburg/satmar community done to her?why just because they are raising money for his defense she is being maligned?
Isn't he entitled to be defended in court with a good lawyer?
Isn't the government providing public defenders?are they protecting criminals?
This is hes constitutional right.
On all the posters it wasn't mentioned his or her name.The whole attention to this found raising and why it turned out such a large crowd is thanks to filthy Nuchem Rosenberg so go blame him for all the attention.

What do we do if hes innocent how do we fix it?

[jancsipista]

Deremes-You are not human what the f does nuchem have to do with all youy morons he is an outcast dont bring him in here you guys always thing if you scapegoat molesters by blaming others for their trouble you will go scott free you are only deluding youre ownselfs idiots that you all are.

[MoishieCohen]

There is something extremely disturbing about the Chassidic need to make such a public demonstration of faith in an accused sex offender.

It may be only alleged.
It may not be true.

But why the desperation to defend a possible offender?

These fukcing Chassidim are a disgrace.

There, I said it.

(NB. This is probably my hundredth post on this site, and the first time I've cursed. I'm just so angry.)

[MoishieCohen]

Lets be mekarev these guys to Judaism. They are our brothers.

Posted by: chussid | May 17, 2012 at 01:15 PM

Haha.
You must be joking, right?
Either that or you are seriously deluded to believe you have any chance of affecting the mindless 'thought' processes of these people. They have no mind of their own.

[chussid]

Haha.
You must be joking, right?
Either that or you are seriously deluded to believe you have any chance of affecting the mindless 'thought' processes of these people. They have no mind of their own.

If they really really had no minds of their own, then it would be even easier to be mekarev them. Just use the same techniques as their rebbes use to brainwash them and keep them in line.
I assume they are human beings, just like us, and can be spoken to gently and convinced. Not 100%, but even convincing one Jew that "its ways are ways of pleasantness and all its paths are peace" was worth it for Hillel. So I'm going to go out on a limb and say its worth it for you and me.

[Deremes]

jancsipista-bla bla bla listen up don't be stupid.You got to be crazy to think and believe that charadie Jews don't care that a child is molested.You got to be meshuga to think that all those THOUSAND'S who attended don't care about this issue.All those THOUSAND'S don't really care that a child rapist is roaming the street,right?
The issue IS that filthy evil person who has an agenda and that is what we wanted to show that this guy is sick and just look what kind of demented people he had with him.It is HE that brought the attention that such a large crowd turned out.He does NOT care about a victim what soever.

[jancsipista]

Deremes-The exact opposite is true of everything that you wrote here,the evil ones are the ones that for years they are covering up molestations,he nuchem is the only one among the hassidim who is taking this seriously.

[jancsipista]

Deremes-You should know by this time i wrote it here many times that i myself was molested at the age of 10 of non other then our shohet and moel in our town near satmer the shochet was over 60 years old this was in a communist country over 50 years ago so you cant convince me that this weberman is innocent,by the way my mothers aunt is a weberman we are related to them,this is a no brainer end of story.

[Yaakov]

Deremes:

Are you really insensate to the trauma that a gathering of thousands in support of her rapist would do to her? If you want to raise money for his defense, do you have to make it a public event.

I don't believe you really aren't sensible to this problem. If this girl is the victim, she is being doubly brutalized.

But, again, I ask, if this man is guilty, when you look back at this, what will it look like? If he is a rapist of little girls, what will this rally in his defense look like to you, and to the world, and what will it have done to her?

Is there anyone meeting to support her? Is there any support for her family?

You know that I am not judging him before the trial, but this event is just wrong. His accuser is also not guilty of falsely accusing him until it is shown to be the case.

[ah-pee-chorus]

can someone direct me to a case in the charedi world where an accused non-jewish alleged molester/rapist was presumed to be innocent against the words of a charedi girl?

or....

a case where a female charedi who claimed she was molested/raped by a non BT charedi male was believed and supported by the community?

theres a clear message to any MALE charedi that they are free to molest and rape with no concern for prosecution. its their god given right. they are 1. charedi and 2. male.....

[ah-pee-chorus]

i realize charedim arent big on the concept of evidence and are bereft of any ability to think critically. but despite that, i wonder why they assume the girl is lying. has she made false accusations in the past? do they know of any reason why a teenager would do this knowing the effect of her words if she wasnt telling the truth? surely she knows what this will do to her and her familys reputation.
ON WHAT BASIS DO THEY NOT BELIEVE HER?

deremes or any other charedi is free to answer.

[jancsipista]

ah-pee-chorus -You should know by this time that truth is the enemy of theese bozos,they cannot tolerate relity or truth to them it is poisen ,besides being shameless they just want to feelgood about themselfs so they keep repeating the same thing its like self hynosis that its all lie.

[Deremes]

Yaakov-You write well but you don't read well what i wrote.
This foundraising event would NEVER EVER have gotten such a large crowd if not for those lousy filthy bums.It is they who made all the publicity and made sure TV reporters to be there.Believe me when i say that I and THOUSANDS of others would of not gone to the hall if not for those degenerates.Blame all those bums who claim they "feel"for the victim for the large crowd.

[SkepticalYid]

Rallies such as this one no longer surprise me in the slightest. What's probably tragic is they're no longer affecting me much at all. It's reached a point where I can't help but wonder why anyone in conflict with such a community remains there.

[Deremes]

Posted by: ah-pee-chorus | May 17, 2012 at 03:51 PM

We are not here in court to judge that's why there will be a trail.According to the law he is innocent until proven guilty.
I am talking here as a religious Jew and al pi halacha i am not allowed to believe.
Again,you choose to believe her and I believe him.
The point i tried making is WHY there was such a large crowd that large organizations who have the biggest publicity for a dinner would wish to have such a huge crowd as yesterday and that is all to thanks to those bums who brought down the media.

[Jeff]

As most in here you probably live a miserable angry jealous life who is blaming the whole world for their personal failures.Someone who is happy with how life is shouldn't be posting hourly,daily gossip and slander about charadie Jews.Instead of blaming others go out and try to make yourself a good kind generous person.Negativity will get you nowhere.

Posted by: Deremes | May 17, 2012 at 01:12 PM

As soon as you said "The filthy Nuchem Rosenberg crowd", you sacrificed whatever credibility you might still have had (which wasn't much).

You're a pathetic little man, terrified that his close little world is going to collapse.

[Yaakov]

Deremes:

I read what you wrote. I don't think that is an excuse, just an explanation. It is a selfish act, ignoring the child who has quite probably been terribly hurt by this person.

While he is legally innocent until proven guilty, this girl has very little motivation to destroy her own life by accusing him. Is it possible she is lying? Certainly. Is it probable? My experience tells me it is not, and in fact it is unlikely. So, I will not convict him without trial, and, if I though he would be railroaded, I would even defend his right to a fair trial, but, I would not allow my feelings about a third party permit me to ignore or excuse throwing the likely victim under the bus.

I read what you wrote, but I don't believe that it is an excuse for what was done. My question remains, what about this girl?

[Jeff]

If they really really had no minds of their own, then it would be even easier to be mekarev them. Just use the same techniques as their rebbes use to brainwash them and keep them in line.

The rebbes offer them eternal bliss in Gan Eden. All we offer is objective reality. They would never listen.

Look at Deremes; Nuchum Rosenberg is "filthy" because he exposed one of their own. It doesn't matter what the perpetrator did; they're indoctrinated from childhood never to break ranks. It's ingrained. Rosenberg is a hero for overcoming the programming, and even in his case, it took something as awful as the molestation of his child.

[Jeff]

My question remains, what about this girl?

He doesn't care, Yaakov. The cohesion of the group is all that matters. "Duetschland, Duetschland, uber alles... "

And, once again, because I haven't mentioned it yet today - sucking baby boys' penises.

[SkepticalYid]

Posted by: Deremes | May 17, 2012 at 04:17 PM

Whenever the alleged molester is a Rabbi or has yichus, you and your ilk always choose to believe them. Especially if the victim isn't socially important.

[ah-pee-chorus]

I am talking here as a religious Jew and al pi halacha i am not allowed to believe.
Again,you choose to believe her and I believe him.Posted by: Deremes

if there were a monetary dispute between 2 people and none of the facts were known, there'd be no reason to believe or disbelieve either party. however i would bet that studies confirm that of the many thousands of cases where a teenage girl claims to have been sodomized, the girl is telling the truth in an overwhelming majority of cases. so while theres always a chance she is making it up, without any further evidence for either side there is a greater statistical likelihood that HE is lying. HE also has far more to gain by lying than she does.
if the crowd, and you were hesitant to pass judgement, that would be one thing. and nobody is demanding he lose his right to a legal presumption of innocence. but to have an open support meeting for him and collect money for his defense, implies that HE is to be believed and SHE is lying. on what basis other than typical torah-fed hate and disdain for women?

[Deremes]

SkepticalYid- If you would know this community well you would know that the accused is NOT a rabbi has NO yichus and doesn't have any special status.He is active in the community and therefore has lots of friends.But he is not like:oh look who just came oh la la he is here,no its not like that.

[Yaakov]

Jeff:

I choose to believe that Deremes is in conflict about things like this. On the one hand, he knows more than most of his fellow chassidim what the worst of them are capable of. But, he is also a member of the community and sees good in it as well.

This is his world, and it is exceedingly hard to throw it away, or see it as inherently bad. As the founders of the US wrote in the Declaration of Independence:

Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

Deremes is a member of the community, and, whatever his conscious might eventually lead him to do, choosing between his community and those he believes wish to destroy it is fraught. To take the side of the protestors here would take both conviction that the are right and enormous courage.

Even to acknowledge some truth in their complaints, given the current situation would make him a traitor. This cannot be done lightly, and I don't know if I would be able to do it in his place, so I don't judge him on the basis of heroics.

I talk to him, and reason with him, because I feel that perhaps he will choose to take a stand, but, I don't condemn him for something I cannot even say that I would be able to do given the circumstances he is in. I would like to believe I would, but I just don't know.

[Deremes]

Yaakov- I was there and if you wish to believe me that out of the 20-30 or so protesters not even one of them are sane normal.Non of them are someone YOU would want to befriend.I saw them and know some of them and have employed some of them and can tell you they are all nut jobs.

[jancsipista]

Deremes-As i wrote before i know the webermans since my mothers aunt was a weberman they do have yichus i know that for a fact.

[Yaakov]

Deremes:

What does the nature of the protestors have to do with the event? Why does the fact that people you don't like want to protest something that was wrong to do make it OK to do?

My point is that you shouldn't have had this event. If this man is a child rapist it is a titanic slap in the face of his victim and her family. If the accuser is telling the truth, you are rallying in support of her tormenter.

Will there be a supportive rally for the girl? Does anyone even care about her?

[Deremes]

Yaakov-
I was responding to what you wrote:
"Deremes is a member of the community, and, whatever his conscious might eventually lead him to do, choosing between his community and those he believes wish to destroy it is fraught. To take the side of the protesters here would take both conviction that the are right and enormous courage".

As far as the event and the crowd we are going in circles and i explained it numerous times but you choose not to listen.
Anyways was a good chat.Night

[jancsipista]

Yaakov-welcome back missed you even for a few days,you are always the voice of reason here you are the most eloquent writer here and you are very very logical,what you just wrote about deremes is truely deremes:)and about life in general.

[jancsipista]

Deremes-Really non of them are normal,what about engelmans mothers who is a hassidishe woman living there among you is she also crazy she is the mother of the molested engelman she sides with the protesters doesnt she?

[enuffizenuff]

@Deremes,
"First hand report:"

Fist of all, Emes me'eretz titzmach, in the meantime it is tif in der erd **the truth will yield from the ground, in the mean time it is deep deep underground.**
Second, if numbers is your proof, then Sodom and Gomorrah should have been spared, why did G-d eradicate them?
If numbers is your proof, what was the chet *sin* of the Golden calf *Egel hazahav*?.
If numbers is your proof, why were shevet Binyamin *the tribe of Binyamin* punished.
If numbers is your proof, why anyone visiting in Bikur cholim not join the sick and remain hospitalized, since the sick outnumber the visitors? Therefore, the true deremes is, achrei rabim lehatos *majority rules* only when they follow protocol, not when they are clearly in violation.

Pirkei Avot * The Ethics of our Forefathers* Yehuda ben Tabay states, when the defendants are before the Court of law, both, that is both the Plaintiff and the Defendant, shall be equal in your eyes as guilty, until the verdict is out and they have accepted, only then are they *Tzadikim*, Righteous. In this particular case not only have you prejudged the defendant as a *Tzadik* but unequally condemmed the victim as guilty. You have posted this all over your community and spilled the victims blood and the victims family's blood thousandfold over and over again all over the place. The caricature of a Bomb homing in on the whole community, only condemns you ,that this CASE will open up a can of worms that has been swept under the rug for all these years. There are so many more victims that you spilled their blood many times over, and they are screaming bloody murder all the way to the Kise HaKavod *The Divine Throne of G-d*, do not cover our blood. SO many of nebach these victims resorted to drugs as a painkiller, took nebach there own lives, went of the Derech only to blame them for their fate. I dare ask you and your emes cohorts, HARATZACHTA VEGAM YARASHTA!
*YOU MURDER AND INHERIT?*You silenced them forever, so as to save the breath of the PERPETRATOR! HAZOT NAOMI? IS THIS WHAT YOU CALL JUSTICE?? IS THIS WHAT YOU CALL TZEDEK TZEDEK TIRDOF??? How are you different than KAYIN WHO SPILLED HIS BROTHERS BLOOD. When HASHEM will demand from you, WHERE ARE MY YOILYS? WHERE ARE MY DINAH'S?, WHERE ARE ARE MY TAYERE SHEFELECH? WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM? WILL YOU SAY, HASHOMER ACHI ANOCHI? *AM I MY BROTHERS KEEPER? SHTAYIM RAOT ZU ASITA, * YOU HAVE DOUBLEY SINNED BEFORE ME* NOT ONLY HAVE YOU MURDERED MY TAYERE KINDERLACH, *BUT MADE A CHILUL HASHEM*!!!
You are the laughing stock of the whole world, and you are in denial, as the BAT HAYAANA *OSTRICH BURYING HIS HEAD IN THE SAND*
How many parents and family members have you made umglicklech for the rest of their lives, the deafening cries of these BLEEDING victims are unbearable. IT IS IN THE NYPOST, NYTIMES, THE OTHER GARBAGE PAPERS, THE GUARDIAN OF U.K AND WHERENOT. YOU HAVE BESMEARD MY NAME MISAF HAOLAM AD SOFO *TO ALL FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH. I WANT YOU TO RATHER BE OR LAGOYIM INSTEAD. PLEASE REPENT, DO TSHUVAH BEFORE YOU CREATE MORE VICTIMS, I CANNOT TAKE IT ANYMORE.

As for your hearty gesture of $1,000 dollars for each of the protesters, kindly keep your money to yourself. We are your victims, or surviving family of victims, or representing a victim long since gone. EVEN ONE VICTIM IS MUCH TOO MUCH, not even $5,000 dollars for my tayere kinderlech, not even $500,000 for my zisse zisse shefelech, not even a $ 1MILLION for my precious YOILYS or my precious Yidishe Neshumalech.

WHAT HAPPENED TO MY CHILDREN, WITH SUCH BEATIFUL EYES, SO GOOD LOOKING, AND THEIR HEAD CORNERS ADORNED WITH THOSE GORGEOUS WAVY BLACK SIDECURLS? * YELED CHAVUSH BEBEIT HAASURIM, YEFEH ENAYIM, VETOV RO'I, UKVUTZOTAV CHAGUROT LO TALTALIM* WHERE HAVE THEY GONE???

VE'IM YITEN ISH ET KOL HON BETO, BOZ YAVUZO LO. *AND EVEN IF YOU SHALL OFFER ME ALL YOUR WEALTH FOR MY YOILYS, OR ALL THE TREASURES OF THE WORLD, ALL WILL SAY FOUL, SHAME SHAME SHAME!!!*

So much for NUMBERS, other than that, you are successful Accountant.

[MoishieCohen]

While he is legally innocent until proven guilty, this girl has very little motivation to destroy her own life by accusing him. Is it possible she is lying? Certainly. Is it probable? My experience tells me it is not, and in fact it is unlikely....

Posted by: Yaakov | May 17, 2012 at 04:20 PM

Well said.

Has anyone (of the Chassidim) even bothered to give any motivation/reason for her to concoct a fabrication against Weberman??

[Joe Field]

Posted by: Deremes | May 17, 2012 at 11:30 AM

I think that we have reached the tipping point, as the outcries reach to a crescendo; this is the time not to give up but increase the pressure.

I really cannot understand you and your community, as a community you lost all credibility, I cannot find even a scintilla of evidence that your community cares for victims of rape and molestation, community pride. You cannot tell to your children, that the outside world is full of drugs and sexual perversion, while you defend and provide financial support to an alleged rapist.

[MoishieCohen]

My point is that you shouldn't have had this event. If this man is a child rapist it is a titanic slap in the face of his victim and her family. If the accuser is telling the truth, you are rallying in support of her tormenter.

Posted by: Yaakov | May 17, 2012 at 05:03 PM

Might I add to the above:

Even if he is in fact INNOCENT, the fact remains that he is currently viewed as an ACCUSED sex offender. As such, is not a public demonstration in support of an accused sex offender a disgrace and chillul hashem?!

[Lubavitchers are Christians]

Deremes,

Your holy Rabbi - Rabbi Ahron Teitelbaum from Satmar-Monroe - today announced that no Chasid Satmar shall go to the internet asifah nor to the Siyum Hashas.

Will you go to the internet asifah? Or will you join us outside by the protest? You need to take sides, Deremes, are you with us or against us?

[Jeff]

Yaakov, if he were suffering silently, deeply conflicted as I've been told a lot of them are (although I remain skeptical) - then you'd have a point. However, he goes out of his way to side with the oppressor and invalidate the revealer:

Yaakov- I was there and if you wish to believe me that out of the 20-30 or so protesters not even one of them are sane normal

Of course, in his psychotic worldview, being "sane normal" means being willing to subordinate one's free will to the will of the holy rebbaim.

If he isn't one of those threatening Rosenberg, he certainly approves of it. He doesn't care about the girl; he doesn't care about dying babies (although I'll acknowledge he probably doesn't think it's possible for babies to get herpes as a result of MBP, because his holy gedoylim tell him they can't). Again, all that matters is the cohesion of the group. Apart from dress, there's very little real difference between Haredim and a certain Fascist group of the mid-twentieth century.

I'll say it again - you give them FAR too much credit. I've seen this before, among former evangelicals; they want desperately to think well of those they left behind.

[jancsipista]

Jeff-Again i must side with you here as you wrote yaakov you give them too much credit,deremes is very very deluded in this matter and others also i cant for the life of me understand how a grownup can be so indifferent to this childs suffering it only happens in the hassidishe world and those that we call lowlife trash it pains me to write this but it is true

[Yaakov]

Jeff:

While it is possible that I am doing something for my own psychological benefit, It doesn't fit my history, or what I understand about my motivation. I think that explanation is simply wrong.

The simple explanation, which is what I believe to be true, is that I prefer to separate people from the errors they make. While I believe in self defense, and would act to protect myself, my family, or my neighbors; there is no need for that here.

Rejecting Deremes because I think his Weltanschauung is distorted would not help me, nor him; but if I talk to him, and am dan l'kaf zechut, then maybe I can influence him for the better. And, in the process, others reading who might feel as he does might find something to consider in what I write.

I never concede anything that I think is wrong, I argue with him on each point, but why should I cut off the possibility of making progress by imagining it is not possible when I can imagine it is possible and pursue it?

[Yaakov]

jancsipista:

You are, as usual, embarrassingly effusive. Please don't imagine I am not pleased with your kind words but I don't know that I deserve such extreme praise.

I am glad, though, that I seem to make you happy. That's quite enough reward for taking the effort to write here.

[jancsipista]

Yaakov-I am beginning to aprreciate the english language more because of you, i wish i can express my feeling the way you do and also jeff, he is very good in verbalizing his inner deep feelings i am one in my thinking with jeff he somehow expresses my own oppinion much much better then i ver could,i wrote a few times correcting deremes here but he never ever answered me i wrote to him that i know the webermans since my mothers aunt is a weberman the same family they do have yichus i heard going back over 100 years to a rabbi forgot his name,also that i am 100 per cent convinced of his guilt.

[jancsipista]

Yaakov- The reason i am so effusive is i like youre forgiving and accepting attitude as i wrote i myself was bought up in a communist country i wont mention the town it was near satmer and my rebbes were fanatical you know me by now what i wrote before somehow i see youre atiitude towards deremes as benevolent and i like that and also jeffs style he gives you his very frank oppinion so i like both youre and his what can i say thats me.

[SkepticalYid]

Posted by: Yaakov | May 17, 2012 at 06:59 PM

Yaak, while your efforts are well intentioned and praiseworthy, it's my opinion (not that it matters) that the best you'll ever accomplish in dialogue with anyone who has a faith structure like Deremes' is to agree to disagree. Satmar Hassidism does teach love of other Jews, but its teachings also instill the conviction that almost all other Jews are deficient . It's quite similar to the perspective Primitive Baptists hold towards other Christian sects, if that means anything to you.

I don't believe that matters of faith are generally subject to intellectual debate, when such faith is strongly held. If a faith system teaches xenophobia coupled with paranoia as well as supremacism, the hurdles are insurmountable.

[Mike]

There is one fundamental difference here between "innocent until proven guilty" and what these Hasidim claim to be in support of. Innocent until proven guilty does not mean that the perpetrator is innocent, and therefore the victim is lying, but means that a jury must deliberate over the evidence which proves that he is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. These Hasidim believe that innocence and guilt is determined in their court of opinion. Even if a jury were to find this man guilty as hell, they would still fundraise for his release from prison. They don't care about the law, they care about their credibility- and, just like everything that goes on, maintaining the power structure in that community. It's men, then women and children. Women have no right to be standing up to the men about anything in these communities, and they want to keep it that way.

[SkepticalYid]

Also, note the derision they hold towards Rabbi Nuchem Rosenberg. Not only did he risk his reputation and livelihood by becoming a public advocate for the abused, there was even a public attempt to murder him. They show no remorse and continue to persecute him to this day.