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May 22, 2012

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Jeff

These jokers have and are making a laughing stock of us in front of the whole world.

My understanding is that that is also "assur" - but like all fundamentalists, they pick and choose. They only follow the rules that are convenient.

ghj

As a frum Jew, I always thought that the point of all the talmud torah is to learn to be able to control yourself. These jokers have and are making a laughing stock of us in front of the whole world.

In addition to that, this blatant public display that women are nothing more than appendages to cook, clean, and have kids is another great hillul Hashem.

When the telephone came around, real gedolim didn't ban it because it could be used for lashon hara.

There is so much Torah being learned on the web--I guess that these bozos are just upset that it's not coming from them.

Jeff

If he exists - and I'm convinced he does not - he's entirely responsible for human suffering. Free will is irrelevant.

And at the end of the day, this is a blog about the foibles of religious people.

Shared human experience? I have little to nothing in common with most people. We lack a common experiential vocabulary. We're speaking entirely different languages.

Emapthy? I have yet to see it manifested in any significant manner.

I agree with the Calvinists - humanity is inherently depraved (of course, that is the only thing about which they and I agree).

Yaakov

Jeff:

What does this have to do with God? Putting aside theology, my position doesn't depend on any deity. I am talking about humanity, and the importance of shared human experience, and of empathy.

God is a different question entirely, and for what I am talking about that needn't enter into it.

Jeff

Well, Yaakov, if their Invisible Friend exists, he's had 55 years in which to do so.

Doesn't speak well of him, really.

Yaakov

Jeff:

You've mentioned this before. It hurts me to read it again, but I can always hope something will change your mind.

Jeff

and frankly, I don't see much on this earth worth anything aside from people.

Posted by: Yaakov | May 23, 2012 at 07:04 AM

I don't see much on this earth worth anything, including people.

Yaakov

I wonder what purpose it serves to make fun of someone's chosen name? Argumentum ad hominem is low stuff. It usually signals and abandonment of rationality and a disregard for the fact that one is dealing with another human being, just as capable of suffering injury as ourselves.

Yaakov

Jeff:

I try very hard to give credit where credit is due. I have no doubt that I would not be able to sustain a community relationship with that man but as an individual, and in the context of his value system, I see merit.

This merit does not excuse the negative things that are also present, but I don't have to keep a scorecard in dealing with people. I can love and enjoy them even with their flaws and errors. I can agree with the good and argue against the bad when I see it.

If I was going to keep a moral-ethical ledger and constantly update the "balance" for every person I encounter, I couldn't live with anyone, not even myself. So, instead, I focus on bolstering the good and diminishing the bad as best I can, always keeping foremost in my mind that I am dealing with another human being, a person, like myself, imperfect but sharing my essential human experience.

I hasten to add that I am always an advocate of self defense, and I am not foolish. If someone defects, and shows that they are dangerous, I don't trust them and I don't harm myself for their benefit. On the other hand, if someone is just like most of us: sometimes confused and sometimes lucid; sometimes generous and sometimes mean, well, that's being human—and frankly, I don't see much on this earth worth anything aside from people.

Jeff

You know I saw a documentary on Chasidim and one of the people featured was a Satmar fish monger. While I am sure that in terms of hashkafa and halacha he and I are quite incompatible, he came off as one of the sweetest, simplest Yidden I have seen.

He was uncomplicated, clearly loved being a religious Jew, and genuinely expressed ahavat Yisrael. As an individual I could appreciate him and felt great affection for him. To me, it was the good face of Satmar, and it made me happy to see.

Posted by: Yaakov | May 22, 2012 at 03:01 PM

Yes, A Life Apart. I remember that man.

Again - you give them far too much credit.

Prag

Thank you for the link, this booklet makes for an interesting read.

That long multi-generation story was well written, and the point well made, but it's so easy to blame the downfall of an overachiever and over-acclaimed young boy on the internet, how about putting on the unhealthy amount of pressure to be the "best" in yeshivah, the "best" in middos etc..I think that this more than the internet or anything else is what drives the youth away.

No Light

Abracadabra - you think Deremetic is Shmarya's haus bucher?

In charge of warming the toilet seat, checking the mail for letter bombs (by opening it), and pre-trolling each article uploaded to this site. Any piece that doesn't instigate. at least three of the following:

screaming,
flailing,
pants-soiling,
accusations of alcoholism,
cries of "racism" toward Haredim,

is refined until it does.

Abracadabra

One of the best quotes from a speaker at the Asifa, Rabbi Wachsman:

"there are thousands here tonight who have no shaychas to internet. Don't think that only a black hatter in Lakewood, or a man in a shtreimel in Williamsburg can do without. Even a Yid in a blue shirt can!"

Quote is from here, and there is other good stuff in this article as well:

http://onthemainline.blogspot.com/2012/05/tilting-at-windmills-my-attempt-to-make.html

Abracadabra

If you skim through the booklet you will find that there are footnotes. Most of the footnotes are internet references.

You gotta love the hypocracy!

But the best was the live-streaming of the event on the internet.

Poor Gedolim - they don't know what the **** is hitting them - do they?

Abracadabra

I just want to know what Deremes is doing on this website since the internet is now assur for anything but for work. Shmarya - Does Deremes work for you now?

Larry

Great line from the booklet:

'So much of our nation was lost during the
Holocaust because of their refusal to stare the danger in the face and respond appropriately. “It won’t happen to us. It can’t be as bad as they’re making it out. Come on, this is the 20th century. Who really believes such medieval stories today?”'

I've posted the booklet on scribed so you can read it without downloading the huge pdf: http://www.scribd.com/doc/94497162

No Light

Moishie- I'm sorry you were fooled, I really am.

The reason we were suspicious of the motivations behind the asifa is that we've seen it all before. Truth is not a plentiful commodity among gedolim.

Your sincere questions were clearly read as the usual disingenuous Haredi apologism. Surely after encountering certain bilious trolls here, you can see what I mean?

We're not a bad bunch, well... once you've eliminated the rape apologists, the brainwashed cultists, the trolls, and the winterised-truck brokers.

jancsipista

MoishieCohen-I HAD A CHANGE OF HEART I SEE YOU ARE A MUCH MORE INTELLIGENT PERSON THEN I REALIZED FORGIVE ME FOR CALLING YOU A--P SORRY.

SkepticalYid

Posted by: Bob Guthrie | May 22, 2012 at 04:54 PM

Remember Yigal Amir? The man who blew Rabin's head to bits? He was not an anti-Zionist haredi.

Just one example, there are others.

MoishieCohen

Also found this.
True or otherwise, it makes an interesting read:

The preparations for the Asifa have been in the works for over a year. The idea for the Asifa was hatched by a Litvisher Askan who recently appeared on the horizon, Reb Nechemya Gottlieb, whose goal is to create an easy and respectable livelihood, so that he can marry off his children with sufficient money and without any extra stresses. His plan is to open an organization or company, whatever it will be called, that will have control over the technology of the entire spectrum of Chareidi Jewry, and the company would make a lot of money, either through collecting money from people who would like to support such a holy and proper organization, and also through charging to install filters and other spiritual protections for all computers. But how does one insure that all of Klall Yisroel will submit to Mr. Gottlieb? This was Gottlieb’s idea, to make an Asifa supported by the Gedolei Torah and Klall Yisroel, and to invite all sectors of Chareidi Jewry, and there to force everyone to submit themselves to the new organization, and through the strong foundation established by the important Asifa, R’ Nechemya will become a well respected Jew, and also a successful businessman. However, as it happened, he had trouble gathering support for the Asifa from the important Askanim, not to mention the holy Gedolei Yisroel, whom R’ Nechemya could not entice to lend support. Accordingly, over the course of a few long months, it became apparent that his idea would fail, to the extent that, after Pesach, not one Kehilla in Klall Yisroel agreed to join in the Asifa, which was a colossal failure for R’ Nechemya and also for the Gedolei Yisroel who were involved in trying their best to stem the plague of technology.

At the same time that R’ Nechemya saw himself in great danger of failing in his plan to make a lot of money, a number of private computer technicians were continuing to perform their jobs without any connection to the upcoming Asifa, and they scheduled an event in the Karlsburger Bais Hamedrash, where people could come and obtain filters for their computers to restrict access to the internet. This event was a phenomenal success and was endorsed by HaGoan Reb Yechezkel Roth and other Rabbanim, and through the night, the technicians protected and made kosher hundreds of computers. Nechemya went wildly mad, and determined to do everything possible to prevent such events from taking place in the future even though such events could save hundreds, and possibly thousands of Jews from the internet, this was not important to Nechemya because his goal was easy business and these events stood to destroy his livelihood. So he went to the length and breadth to uproot the group of technicians who were working for free [at these events], with all types of terror and pressure until he succeeded in stopping further events [at which filters were being installed on computers] from occurring. (The chutzpa is incomprehensible, because today, Nechemya is taking credit for the Asifa, when his only connection with it was that he successfully brought it about.) Returning now to the Internet Asifa, which appeared to be a catastrophe and failure and an embarrassment for the Gedolei Yisroel who became intertwined with it, it was now a number of weeks after Pesach and they still had not sold one ticket, so they gathered a house full of experienced Chasideshe Askanim who B”H put the Asifa on the map, and now, weeks after the new Askanim became involved, the Asifa is sold out.

MoishieCohen

In several earlier posts, I expressed my confusion as to why FM-posters were so opposed to the Asifah. After all, I thought, discussing responsible filtered use of the internet can only be a good thing.

It appears I was naive.

I hereby reproduce reports, from another blog, from people who actually went to the Asifah (I would venture no-one on FM went).

1

I too was fooled. I expected an educational forum as to how to educate our youth about Internet use and instead I got the same tired proclamations of Internet being gates of hell and I'm going straight to it due to my iPhone. I feel like I wasted 7 hours of my life! No information regarding filters, technology, routers, opendns, etc. just the same old thing. No Internet at all, decreed from on high by all "Rabbis".

Like a real fool I ignored this and attended, hoping this was going to be something new.

2

I was led down a path of fantasy and imagination. I was told that the rabbis won’t be banning the Internet at this event. After all, the slogan was “We can’t live with it, we can’t live without it”! There are going to be vendors teaching people about Internet filters at the event!...

If someone wishes to listen to the “Gedolim” who spoke on the issue, they are forced to leave the Internet behind, for all purposes other than what is absolutely necessary for work. That means no buying things on Amazon, no using the incredible resources of hebrewbooks.org, no emailing family members, no divrei Torah via email or website...

Nothing positive about the Internet was discussed. Websites with Torah and the ability to communicate with friends and family was ignored. In short, this event set the clock back to zero.

3

As someone who was somewhat involved, I can tell you that there was supposed to be a 100 page booklet handed out with detailed information about filters and options for 'safe' internet use. Apparently, they were not handed out because they included davening and would have been 'shemos' and people were worried they would get thrown out.

jancsipista

MoishieCohen-I hope you understand yiddish ,i can only say this to you,zay nisht kain nar hob nisht kain tzar.In english in short it means dont be a fool so you shouldnt have pain

Yaakov

No Light:

MoishieCohen excoriated the organizers of the Weberman event in the original thread. This story wasn't intended to excuse them in any way but to further chastise them by showing what other group acts this way.

No Light

Bob Guthrie - wild applause for you Sir!

Ignore Deremetic he's the perfect product of his cult, closed-minded, unquestioning of his Guru, and filled with spite and bile.

No Light

Moishie - are you somehow unaware of what the Daily Mail was, and still largely is?

Let's see, hardened anti-Semites, open supporters of Hitler, founders of the Brownshirts.

Should I go on? If you are not a white-British, heterosexual, Conservative Party voter, wealthy, able-bodied Christian man, from the South of England, then they actively despise you. You must have a wife with those characteristics, and no more than two children, preferably boys.

There aren't many Moishies in Hertfordshire, let alone Moishies who fit those characteristics, and hate Jews.

So not only did your "Goyim do it too!" cheap-shot fait (especially as nobody has ever denied that), but you got your ammunition from a fascist rag that funded the extermination of ten million people considered "life unworthy of life", a view they still hold to now.

So unless you're a Space Jew, they helped kill your relatives, and tried to get Britain to institute Nazi politics.

And you wonder why I'm surprised? You wonder why dragging them into an already sensitive topic to try and score points, might cause upset and disgust?

As someone recently assaulted by a stranger, thanks to a Mail campaign, the mere thought of them brings me to tears. Thinking of the pain people like them caused to the sole survivor of his family, my beloved grandfather OBM, when he was abused in the street for daring to come to England after escaping Auschwitz, for being a "filthy, scrounging immigrant", I wish them unending, agonising pain.

So seeing them here, the one place that should be safe? It's like seeing someone repost something
from Stormfromt

Oh and I am unemployed, you're right. Pretty hard to get a job when you're suffering from a condition that damages your spine and stops your legs from working. That, plus the seizures and inability to sit upright, may make me a rubbish employee, but I'm still a good woman. No matter what anyone else thinks.

Bob Guthrie

Posted by: SkepticalYid
Deremes is an anti-Zionist. So are members of many other Hassidic sects as well as some Reform, Reconstructionist and many Secular Jews. Anti-Zionism isn't the solely the conviction of NK and Satmar.

Never knew of any of this from any of the Jewish places or people I have known for the last 20 years. Nothing until that Haredim attack on a small defenseless girl in Israel.

He can go kiss Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's exit port if he wishes, but I will ask G-d to curse him if he tries to put in doubt my convictions and beliefs again.

Bob Guthrie

Posted by: Deremes
WHERE are those ultra orthodox that you DO love and respect?

You are a nut case, you know that?. Okay, I have some friends in Haifa who are Military Ultra-Orthodox, but I haven't seen since 1992 when I served alongside (with) the Jewish Navy in Haifa, where their small boat fleet is docked there.

That's the first time I learned what a Tefillin was.

New York. Secular, Orthodox and Ultra-Orthodox cartoonists and illustrator friends. See them when I can for New York Toy Fair, the only thing I know they lived mostly in Brooklyn. One thing I learned if you are in a mix crowd of secular, orthodox and ultra-orthodox friends, and you are going to eat, Ultra-Orthodox choice goes, always, nobody contraries the decision.

San Francisco, same groups and profession as New york. Thing I learned. Ultra-Orthodox dudes will fall into the heavy faith and the totally mellow, nothing in between.

FairFax, Los Angeles. No religious Jewish friends (animators), but we love to go to Fairfax, specially to Cantor's (open 24 hour deli, best Jewish food since Haifa). Most Ultra-Orthodox I have seen since Israel in the '90s.

In summary, Deremes. I do have Jewish religious friends, including Ultra, but their faith, except with exceptions, were never a problem.

And then one day I read about an attack of a small American girl in Israel, and learned of a darker side of Ultra-Orthodism, and the first time I learned the word "Haredim", and this blog, and...

The rest is history. And, you my friend, can go f*** yourself for questioning my loyalty to my Jewish friends, religious or not, and my love of Israel.

SkepticalYid

Posted by: Bob Guthrie | May 22, 2012 at 04:03 PM

Deremes is an anti-Zionist. So are members of many other Hassidic sects as well as some Reform, Reconstructionist and many Secular Jews. Anti-Zionism isn't the solely the conviction of NK and Satmar.

SkepticalYid

Posted by: Deremes | May 22, 2012 at 03:39 PM

As a matter of fact, we do NOT disagree all the time. there have been a number of issues where we were in complete agreement.
But I'm sure you'll disagree with that ;-)

jancsipista

Yaakov- Deremeses enemy is his own name deremes,truth is his biggest fear that he will be found out as a big fraud,which he is trying to hide with all his might

MoishieCohen

MoishiCohn- Well it takes one to know one you mindless putz.

Posted by: jancsipista | May 22, 2012 at 11:37 AM

disdain thats exactly what he shows.

Posted by: jancsipista | May 22, 2012 at 12:33 PM

The irony of your comments is breathtaking.

MoishieCohen

I would also like to gently point out that your rhetorical question about relationships and employment really seems beneath you.

Posted by: Yaakov | May 22, 2012 at 11:22 AM

First off - I'm back! I guess I must be a little addicted to FM, because quitting cold turkey just didn't work.

I'm sorry for (some of) the distress my comments caused.

As Yaakov correctly surmised, they were written in a moment of frustration. I had just very kindly shared an interesting tidbit of trivia, from the Daily Mail, with the FM readership. My intentions were harmless.

All of twenty minutes later, someone had to pick on it, look for insinuations, wrong-guess my intention and make political meat out of it.

It seemed bitter to me. I try to think twice before I respond to another post. In fact, I had something else I wanted to tell Jeff, but I thought better of it.

Those who know me (say, for example, Yaakov) - and even those who take the time to read all my drivel - will know that the parenthesed dig at Jeff was uncharacteristic of me. I apologise.

It is people like Yaakov, who continue to rise above the Hamon Am, and have the ability to respond intelligently, coherently and above all respectfully, who make FM a place worth returning to.

Deremes

There goes your honesty and admit that you hate the idea of an Orthodox Jew even the best of the best.Because you cant SHOW me WHERE they are that you DO love and respect.

Bob Guthrie

I been a long time on this forum, fighting with other against the criminal elements on the Chasidim, or their obtuse views (Asifa), or their treatment of Women in general (I really hate that).

I am not going to have a somebody step to my face, and call me an anti-semite, as I have more support and love for Judea in my little pinkie than on whole of your family.

So continue discussing along the other people in the forum, take your side, mine will be against the Jewish criminal side, which include certain Ultra-Orthodox groups.

Sholom aleikhem

Deremes

Bob Guthrie,
I asked YOU first and still you giving me the run around.Plus i didn't claim anything it is you who said,again,that your hate is ONLY to CERTAIN ultra orthodox Jews.
WHERE are those ultra orthodox that you DO love and respect?

Deremes

Bob Guthrie-
You don't have to answer becuase you have no answer and i cornered you that you were not honest when you said your hate is only to CERTAIN ultra orthodox Jews.
I read well and understand and still i keep asking you WHO are those ultra orthodox Jews that you DO love and respect,in other words NOT what kind.Point me to those and show me the ones who ARE Ultra-Orthodox Haredi Jew that abides and contributes like any other member of the Jewish nation as a noble human being, following the tenants of Judaism, while also observing their Orthodox faith without smooching it on somebodies face.And those are the ones you love or respect.WHERE are those that you DO love and respect?


Bob Guthrie

Deremes:

And using your twisted logic, you didn't respond to my query if you repudiated such Ultra-Orthodox groups like the Toldos Aharon and the Neturei Karta.

So, since you didn't repudiate them on a post, that means (by your logic), that you must agree with their Extremist Anti-Zionists views.

Two can play at this game.

Bob Guthrie

Deremes:

"NOT the Ultra-Orthodox Haredi Jew that abides and contributes like any other member of the Jewish nation as a noble human being, following the tenants of Judaism, while also observing their Orthodox faith without smooching it on somebodies face"

Is this so complicated to read?.

"You (are) busted(,) and exposed that in reality you do hate the idea of an ultra orthodox Jew."

Yeeeaah,... No, not really, but thanks for playing. You will have to excuse me if I longer participate on your neurological delusion of what you think I think or not of others. It's tedious and insulting.

Deremes

Bob Guthrie-you made a statement that you have ""the scorn directed to certain Ultra-Orthodox is for those that merit it, the pedophiles, lunatics, women attackers, Israeli law haters, IDF haters, censorship nuts (post in point), non-willing to work welfare kings, business crooks that use the excuse of religion to tax dodge/enrich themselves, etc,...
NOT the Haredi Jew that abides and contributes like any other member of the Jewish nation as a noble human being, following the tenants of Judaism, while also observing their Orthodox faith without smooching it on somebodies face.""

I asked you to point me who they are as a specific group that you don't hate and respect and all you do is giving the run around.You busted and exposed that in reality you do hate the idea of an ultra orthodox Jew.
There is your honesty.

Yaakov

Deremes:

I understand that you are saying you don't intend to injure me by not answering but I don't understand the rationale. Even if there are only a few people worth talking to, by your count, I was talking to you, not to anyone else.

But, I get the idea that you don't want to engage me for some reason, so I won't make a big deal out of it. I do like talking to you, though, so I am disappointed. I will just refrain from now on, but remain perplexed.

Deremes

Yaakov-while you are an intelligent person you are taking this forum too serious as if this was like a community.Take a good look how many people comment and how many make real sense and how many are inteligent who write well although i disagree with them all the time
I can count 3-4 maybe 5. you have:
WSC
api-choros
Abrac
SkepticalYid
And yourself
The rest don't make sense at all.All they do is curse,call names,cant spell and no grammar even though they are not orthodox.
So don't take my non-answer as an insult.

Bob Guthrie

Posted by: Deremes
Fast no run around.Which are the ones you respect?

The ones I do. Any more bright ones, Herr Deremes?. Go on, I got plenty of Ones and Zeros to use.

Here's to you. Which ones do you repudiate?. I can't tell you the two most vile ones I wouldn't mind see them kicked in the knackers publicly: The Toldos Aharon and the Neturei Karta.

But they are still Ultra-Orthodox Hasidim, so do you still support them for that fact, Herr Deremes?.

jancsipista

Deremes-Iam underestating deliberatly at leas half of bp is on sec8 food stamps

Yaakov

Deremes:

Have I done something to offend you, that you aren't responding to me?

jancsipista

Deremes-Did you hear about the fight that broke out there?i heard they all wanted to be seated in the section 8.

Deremes

Bob Guthrie,
Fast no run around.Which are the ones you respect?

SkepticalYid

Posted by: Deremes | May 22, 2012 at 03:08 PM

I have a number of relatives who attended the event. To the best of my knowledge most drive minivans and work for a living.

Bob Guthrie

Posted by:Deremes

Excellent.
It would be nice of you to share with us which ultra Orthodox Jews you love.

Easy!.

...The sane ones. Short and concise for you?.

I don't love the Ultra-Orthodox Jews who abide as human beings. I respect them. I will quarrel with the ones are aquatinted with (nobody is perfect), but they will not preach on me their views, they will express them, but they do not look at me to grab at them as gospel.

Also: "It would be nice of you to share with us...",... What is with you and LikeItIs?. what is this, "Take a poll day" on Failedmessiah?.

(German voice) "Achtung!. Ve haff zem questions to asks you, Herr Guthrie". Paperz, pleaze" (Urg, creepy).

Deremes

Posted by: SkepticalYid | May 22, 2012 at 02:40 PM

I went there for one reason:to be together with close to sixty thousand people who are child molesters,protector of child
molesters,rapists,thieves,thugs,liars,cheats,driving Lexus while being on food stamps.Where else is there such an opportunity to feel at home with my brethren.

Yaakov

Deremes:

Vos macht a yid? Things going well?

You know I saw a documentary on Chasidim and one of the people featured was a Satmar fish monger. While I am sure that in terms of hashkafa and halacha he and I are quite incompatible, he came off as one of the sweetest, simplest Yidden I have seen.

He was uncomplicated, clearly loved being a religious Jew, and genuinely expressed ahavat Yisrael. As an individual I could appreciate him and felt great affection for him. To me, it was the good face of Satmar, and it made me happy to see.

Deremes

Posted by: Bob Guthrie | May 22, 2012 at 02:14 PM

Excellent.

It would be nice of you to share with us which ultra Orthodox Jews you love.Not what kind of ultra Orthodox Jews you love but point me to specifics like:
Ger,Belz,Satmar,Vishnitz.Which are the ones who are not from certain Ultra-Orthodox the pedophiles, lunatics, women attackers, Israeli law haters, IDF haters, censorship nuts (post in point), non-willing to work welfare kings, business crooks that use the excuse of religion to tax dodge/enrich themselves, etc?hu?

Bob Guthrie

Yaakov
Eventually, I suspect, I will fade away and not return.

G-d, Yaakov. You got six kids, you got a large legacy, and I don't think you are leaving any time soon. Way to bring the thread to a dead, depressed stop o.O

Cheers.

LikeItIs

"MM" Bless you in your golden years. The internet is a wonderful porthole to the world. One can use it to vilify people and religion on blogs or soil oneself in the world of porn (or both). One can on the other hand also use it for positive endeavors. I am currently taking *free* online courses in Compiler writing (Stanford University), Logic (Stanford University), Computer Vision (University of California - Berkley) and Circuits and Electronics (M.I.T.)

https://www.coursera.org/
https://6002x.mitx.mit.edu/

A mind is a terrible thing to waste. (Then why am I here?)

Bob Guthrie

Posted by: LikeItIs
Are you retired and where are you located

The heck you are, taking a survey?. o.O Getting kind of creepy here, skippy.

Am I asking you anything about your personal life, bubbe?. No, good, then let's not get too "personal" here. I don't want to have my own Haredim stalker, thankuverymuch.

Yaakov

For the record, I am neither retired nor unemployed. I am gainfully employed by a major institution of higher learning in a responsible position. I use a variety of devices to access this blog (iPhone, iPad, notebook, desktop); though I much prefer a real keyboard to an on-screen one when posting comments.

I am responsible for my own work schedule, so I post when I feel I have time to do it. I write quickly, so though my posts are long they don't take a lot of time to compose.

I am a father of six, married to one woman for more than 30 years.

Sometimes I am absent because of the demands of work and family. Sometimes I am gone because the rancor chases me away. Eventually, I suspect, I will fade away and not return.

SkepticalYid

Posted by: Deremes | May 22, 2012 at 12:40 PM

So you're defying the Gedolim at the Asifa who banned casual internet usage? There goes your chelek in Olam Habah, you farshtunkeneh koifer.

LikeItIs

Posted by: Bob Guthrie | May 22, 2012 at 02:14 PM

Nu tachlis. Are you retired and where are you located (I don't mean address just state will do - or country if outside US).

ger

The examples in the booklet were a bit extreme, the men that lost their jobs due to excessive time spent on the net, the odd perv watching porn all day. As with anything it should be used in moderation. Things like filters should be used as with anyone who has a family but if you are worried that your kid wont 'resist' the temptation to look at the bad stuff / spend all day on the net then you have failed in some other way to give meaning to their lives/self control.

MM

Um, LikeItIs and Bob Guthrie, so I am a retired (from a long and productive career)
woman, not in robust health, post a long (and not very happy) marriage with a wonderful son who lives in a different city and a darling little einekel, and by implication (I'm not an old man or homeless), you would dismiss my point of view as someone who has nothing better to do than be on the internet spouting meshugas. Well, yes, if I am a mere woman and getting on in years, I belong on the rubbish heap, my opinions disregarded.

The fact is the internet IS a productive use of my time at this stage of my life. It keeps my (very formidable if I do say so myself) mind alive, keeps me in touch with what is going on in the world and with my family and friends scattered all over the world now that I can no longer travel easily. And, no, I don't watch porn. So, vas vilst du fon mir??? I should lie in my bed all day????

And, yes, B.G., I am writing this with the aid of an old Dell PC. I am past being able to see tiny screeens, and my arthritic fingers don't work with those little keyboards. So what!

Bob Guthrie

Posted by: LikeItIs
I would assume that people who have no contact with haredim would have no burning desire to put them down with such hatred as is exhibited here.

Aah, here we go, the "this site HATES the whole of the Hasidim" card. Now we can see what team you are playing with, skippy.

As it has been stated many, many times before, the "scorn" directed to certain Ultra-Orthodox is for those that merit it, the pedophiles, lunatics, women attackers, Israeli law haters, IDF haters, censorship nuts (post in point), non-willing to work welfare kings, business crooks that use the excuse of religion to tax dodge/enrich themselves, etc,...

NOT the Haredi Jew that abides and contributes like any other member of the Jewish nation as a noble human being, following the tenants of Judaism, while also observing their Orthodox faith without smooching it on somebodies face.

So lose the "the Hasidim way or no way" superhero mantle. It's been slammed against the users in this site many times before, and it just exposes for what you are, bubbe.

LikeItIs

Posted by: Bob Guthrie | May 22, 2012 at 01:28 PM

I believe that most are NY/NJ based as that is where most of the haredim are based. I would assume that people who have no contact with haredim would have no burning desire to put them down with such hatred as is exhibited here. I also don't see working people *sneaking* off during the work day on their iPhones and Blackberry to check up on Failedmessiah.

I may be wrong so people sound off (honors system) as to where you are located.

I will begin with the greatest city in the world - NYC!

Bob Guthrie

Posted by: LikeItIs
"Posting in the middle of the work day..."

Do you bloody realize that the internet is a 24 hour entity, encompassing several world timezones, some at nightime, some at daytime?. No everybody is posting in one country, in one timezone, at one time of the day in this forum.

Computers only?, really?. You are not capable to type to this site on an iPhone from the USA, from a Kindle Fire in the UK, an iPad on Tel Aviv, from a Galaxy One on Australia?.

So, according to you, everything is being posted here currently from New York right now, at lunchtime, on an old Dell computer, by an old, retired Jewish old man.

(...)

Uh, try another allegory. Please.

No Light

Likeitis - this may shock and bewilder your tiny mind, but it isn't the same time all over the World!

Brace yourself - it's 20:23 here, WOW! It's almost as if there's a huge world outside your house.

No Light

Oh Deremes....

Shmuel puts forth a brilliant argument, and you respond with the equivalent of "No, YOU! Poopiehead!"

Bob Guthrie

Posted by: MoishieCohen
"On the contrary, if you took the time (to remove your head from your ass)..."

Yes, definitely a contributor that we must not lose. =P

LikeItIs

Ha ha. That joke never gets old.

Reallly.

Posted by: Bob Guthrie | May 22, 2012 at 12:48 PM

Well, it wasn't written as such.

Posting in the middle of the work day implies being retired, homeless, unemployed etc.. I chose the one that would, in most probability, encompass the largest group - however in this economy the unemployed and homeless may be a group to be reckoned with.

jancsipista

Yaakov-I ALWAYS LISTEN TO YOU YOURE THE VOICE OF REASON,I GOT CARRIED AWAY WITH CALLING HIM A PUTZ,I GET EXTREEMLY ANGRY AT SOMEONE WHO IS A BAL GAIVA A BIG SHOT ESPECIALLY WHO PUTS DOWN OTHERS TO ELEVATE HIMSELF THAT IS BEYOND THE PALE.

Jeff

My point was not to defend or excuse the behaviour of the Chassidim in W'burg. On the contrary, if you took the time (to remove your head from your ass) you would see that actually in all my prior posts on this topic I have expressed sharp criticism of them.

I understand, which is why I've been more patient with you than I am with the other frum people here.

I was merely trying to point out to FM contributors, who seem to expect this shocking behaviour only from the Jews (hence the constant focus thereon), that some Goyim are guilty of the same.

It was a ridiculous analogy. No one here is claiming that frum people are the only ones who do this. We're claiming that frum people are the only ones who do it while claiming to be God's representatives on earth.

Bob Guthrie

Michael:

Good article. Thanks for posting.

No Light

Yochanan - check the last line of my post again!

I'm talking about the real good "book", overseen by Rav Jimbo Wales. :-D


Moishe - the Daily Fail, really?

The reason we're discussing Haredi crime is because that's what this blog is about. It's not about the horsey set, it's not Failed Foxhunter. Getting arsey at people for pointing that out does not help your case.

And the sheer bloody irony of you trying to use the Mail for whatever point you were trying to make... Baffling.

Michael

http://baltimorejewishlife.com/news/news-detail.php?SECTION_ID=1&ARTICLE_ID=29268

Bob Guthrie

Posted by: Deremes

He may plenty of sense and a few good points. You just latched to laughable counterpoint to try to discredit the whole post.

All or nothing, Demeres, all or nothing. You can't be B.S. selective when it comes to the whole technology and the Hasidim.

Bob Guthrie

Posted by: LikeItIs
The active members are in all probability retirees, sitting at home at their computers with not much else to do.

Ha ha. That joke never gets old.

Reallly.

Bob Guthrie

Yaakov:

No matter how frustrated one can be become on this forum, a more stable, intelligent persona would count up to ten, and move on, instead of:

*Labeling this discussion forum a waste of time.
*Labeling those that disagree with as individuals of varying brainlessness and idiocy.
*Further label the site as a place not "providing" him No lasting satisfaction or fulfillment.
*And continuing to insult users as relationship losers (how many people on this site are in a relationship(?)), or unemployable losers (how many people on this site are in proper employment? Just wondering....).

So, for your sake, I will change the "putz" label to an "extremely rude and condescending, unable to cope with real life situations of minor concerns to most people but him, easily dismissive for the thought process of others and the intents of a internet site" person.

He is the only one to blame for his own actions. Next time he will think twice how to properly behave while having normal human interaction on the web.

Deremes

shmuel, writes:

""Noone denies the problem of porn on the web. But there’s phone sex available, too. I don’t see a single one of you charedim giving up your phones. One could probably corrupt fax transmissions with porn, too—if anyone still uses faxes—but many institutions are not ready to give up faxing. Why not? By their logic, all phones, all faxes, all forms of CDs, films, and tapes should be forbidden, because they can be, and often have been, utilized in the cause of pornography. Stop using those forms of technology, and I will listen to their arguments here, too.""

By comparing phone and fax sex to porn available on the internet you proved how much sense you make with the rest of your comment.

jancsipista

Bob Guthrie -Right on you said it perfectly, his disdain fo other users here is uncalled for bopb you hit the nail with the word disdain thats exactly what he shows.

shmuel

Rabbi Wachsman, who I happen to like as a speaker a great deal, deemed the internet the "challenge of the generation."
But I respectfully disagree.
To me, the “nisayon hador” is whether current charedi leadership has the spine to stand up to child molesters and the thugs who intimidate victims. DA Hynes has characterized charedi victim and witness tampering as worse than practiced by the Mafia. That’s a shell-shocking, extraordinary indictment of the depths to which Klal Yisroel has sunk. Make no mistake: you can’t blame child sex abuse and witness intimidation on the internet. But it sure is nice to make a big splashy gathering and make a bogeyman out of modern technology. The reason the internet is so despised in charedi circles is precisely because of what I’m doing now: letting out all the hot air of their arguments, questioning their infallible leaders, proving to them that their emperors have no clothes. Noone denies the problem of porn on the web. But there’s phone sex available, too. I don’t see a single one of you charedim giving up your phones. One could probably corrupt fax transmissions with porn, too—if anyone still uses faxes—but many institutions are not ready to give up faxing. Why not? By their logic, all phones, all faxes, all forms of CDs, films, and tapes should be forbidden, because they can be, and often have been, utilized in the cause of pornography. Stop using those forms of technology, and I will listen to their arguments here, too.

The fact is, modern tech is here to stay. Filter out the bad, keep the good. That’s what normal, rational people do.

Way more troubling for charedim is the subtext of this asifa: an increasing awareness on the part of charedi rabbis that the jig is really up. The recent scathing reporting in the NYT about child sex abuse in these communities was astounding, though we advocates for truth, justice, and punishment of incorrigible charedi child molesters have known this for years. And it has been available for all to know. How? The internet, that’s how. How do we know that our rabbis have failed us, and have committed astounding chillulei Hashem in the process, reported in all major media over the past several years (unending financial scams and crimes; a complete disregard for dina d’malchusa dina; no moral support of molestation victims; coddling and financial and political activism on behalf of molesters; no knowledge of how to conduct a proper forensic investigation, yet an insistence on maintaining that right; turning a blind eye to witness tampering on a grand scale; formulating and publicly promoting, against New York state law itself, a policy of “we will not report our sex abuse cases to the proper authorities under any circumstance,” yada yadda yadda)? The internet, that’s how.

One can well understand the depths of the fear these men must be feeling when they realize that their every action and decision is scrutinized by hyper-critical Jewish (and, indeed, orthodox) eyes, instantaneously and globally. It’s never been available in Jewish history. It’s available now. THAT’S what’s driving this: pure fear that the masses will be clued in. It’s why they ban newspapers, magazines, radio, TV, movies, books, microfiche (have I left anything out?) and all other major media. Who needs the bad press?

Some have been moved to give up their internet. Thank you for playing! We wish you well on your road to not knowing and not caring what’s really happening to charedi Jewry. I don’t care much myself about charedi Jewry, but you guys give us Orthodox Jews a very bad name indeed.

LikeItIs

Anyway, I'm beginning to come round to the Asifa's way of thinking.

This site is a waste of time. It really sucks up my time, writing and responding, to various individuals of varying brainlessness and idiocy.

It passes the time, but that is all. No lasting satisfaction or fulfillment.

I have a job. I need to get on my life.

Just wondering - how many people on this site are (a) in a relationship (b) in proper employment? Just wondering....

Posted by: MoishieCohen | May 22, 2012 at 11:07 AM

The active members are in all probability retirees, sitting at home at their computers with not much else to do.

Yaakov

Bob Guthrie:

I know more about MoishieCohen than this one comment, and I said I think that was beneath his normal level of discourse in my own comment above.

He's frustrated, and he said something from frustration which is mild in comparison to the spew of many others here. So, yes, he really is not a "mindless putz", and the bit you chose to extract is not typical of his contribution.

Yoel Mechanic

,they just see in others what they themselfs are.

Posted by: jancsipista | May 22, 2012 at 07:38 AM
---------------------------------

A nice word for this is "projection".

I see lots of projection all around, Tons of it.

WoolSilkCotton

++MoishieCohen | May 22, 2012 at 11:07 AM++

I felt the same way when I was a student at the Lubavitcher Yeshiva. Just changing a few of your words:

"...This hasidic crap is a waste of time. It really sucks up my time, responding to various individuals of varying brainlessness and idiocy.

It passes the time, but that is all. No lasting satisfaction or fulfillment. I have a job. I need to get on my life..."

Bob Guthrie

Posted by: Yaakov
MoishieCohen is certainly not a "mindless putz". He is a frum Yid who has some reasonable comments to share.

Really?.

Posted by: MoishieCohen
Just wondering - how many people on this site are (a) in a relationship (b) in proper employment? Just wondering....

Yes, those are really intelligent rebuttals. And, no, we will be not losing a good contributor to the forum with somebody that "responds" to a discussion with such disdain for the other users.

dh

This picture shows what it's like to look down into the pit of hell.

Yaakov

jancsipista:

MoishieCohen is certainly not a "mindless putz". He is a frum Yid who has some reasonable comments to share. I don't agree with his position on this, but he isn't being mindless. We often disagree, but we can discuss it.

His last comment was a rhetorical one, very mild in comparison to a lot of the folks on the other side of this issue. He's frustrated by the fact that reasonable, sincere questions are answered with rancor and vitriol.

Most comments he makes are sincere, not rhetorical. When he asks questions, they aren't intended to be leading ones, he thinks his position is reasonable and is asking why it might not be.

If you look you will find comments from him that are very anti-extremist concerning charedim that he believes are behaving very poorly. He has gotten as angry as anyone else (well, perhaps not as angry as Jeff) about some stories here.

So, no, MoishieCohen isn't a "mindless putz" and I think we will be losing a good contributor here if he leaves, though I can't blame him for doing it.

Apostate

The black hats are being sucked into the binary code tunnel, and their straggly beards are flapping in the air. Like the Chinese and Iranians they can fight it, but the internet is more powerful than they are.

jancsipista

MoishiCohn- brainlessness and idiocy.
Well it takes one to know one you mindless putz.

Bob Guthrie

Posted by: MoishieCohen
...(sniped Hasidim indoctrinates points)...

Ah, the good old taught Haredim standard response to criticism of their cult, when losing, insult.

You are not the first to try these drivel sycophant retorts, MoishieCohen, and you won't be the last Black Hat to spout such expected drivel when cornered metaphorically.

"This site is a waste of time". There is the door, goodbye, get off the internet, sayonara, vaya con Dios, we won't miss you. Don't go away mad, just go away. =)

Yaakov

MoishieCohen:

It is very easy to spend too much time with an online community. It is a good thing that you reduce the time you spend, though I for one will miss your comments.

However, though I understand it was rhetorical, you are not "coming round to the asifa's way of thinking". That event was a sham. It wasn't really about the problem of spending too much time on the net. The real agenda was a superposition of self interests in the commercial and political realm.

You didn't need that mindless claptrap to understand that there is such a thing as bitul zman. You are a rational, thinking person.

The truth is, bitul zman can be found anywhere, and in the charedi world you will find a lot more of it in the beit hamidrash than on the Internet.

I would also like to gently point out that your rhetorical question about relationships and employment really seems beneath you.

Jeff

You remind me of a darker time in our history, Ill tell you what I tell every would be antisemite, Leave us be, Please.

Posted by: Umar | May 22, 2012 at 11:05 AM

Yeah, we're Nazis. Fool.

How about this? We'll leave you alone when you stop sucking on baby boys' penises. Deal?

MoishieCohen

Anyway, I'm beginning to come round to the Asifa's way of thinking.

This site is a waste of time. It really sucks up my time, writing and responding, to various individuals of varying brainlessness and idiocy.

It passes the time, but that is all. No lasting satisfaction or fulfillment.

I have a job. I need to get on my life.

Just wondering - how many people on this site are (a) in a relationship (b) in proper employment? Just wondering....

Jeff

Okay, let's try that again...

Who writes this obnoxious drivel?

Posted by: rebeljew | May 22, 2012 at 11:01 AM

People who are paid to write it, by people who are absolutely terrified of losing their power base.

Fortunately for them, they can count on brainwashed fools like Deremes who will spend three hours listening to their inanity and come away "inspired".

Umar

Yeah lets hate on Orthodox Jews because Conserva-lol and the Reform(ed)- Atheist stream are infallible right?

You remind me of a darker time in our history, Ill tell you what I tell every would be antisemite, Leave us be, Please.

Jeff

Who writes this obnoxious drivel?

Posted by: rebeljew | May 22, 2012 at 11:01 AM

People who are paid to write it, by people who are absolutely terrified of losing their power base.

Fortunately for them, they can't count on brainwashed fools like Deremes who will spend three hours listening to their inanity and come away "inspired".

MoishieCohen

Jeff,

My point was not to defend or excuse the behaviour of the Chassidim in W'burg. On the contrary, if you took the time (to remove your head from your ass) you would see that actually in all my prior posts on this topic I have expressed sharp criticism of them.

I was merely trying to point out to FM contributors, who seem to expect this shocking behaviour only from the Jews (hence the constant focus thereon), that some Goyim are guilty of the same.

It was meant to be an interesting observation. Not an excuse.

rebeljew

This was the brochure for an inspiring event? How the Internet destroyed me? No stories of someone who can learn many more hours because he doesn't have to shlep sefarim on his train commute, no one who can now communicate daily over Skype with his infirm mother in another country, just a guy who is "addicted" to the Internet?

Who writes this obnoxious drivel?

Porn4All

There is nothing on the net that is not easily accessible elsewhere.

Posted by: Allan Schneider | May 22, 2012 at 08:28 AM

I don't know. To get pron video you have to shlep to your local adult store and then you have to pay for it.

Compare this to clicking on xvideos or pornhub or any of the multitude of free options.

Jeff

Moishie, upper class Brits don't claim to have a handle on absolute truth, to represent God on earth or to occupy the moral high ground. They also aren't entrapping and indoctrinating other people's children. Do you really need to have this pointed out to you?

Why is that frum Jews claim to be the pinnacle of creation until they get caught with their hands in the till, then universally fall back upon, "We're no worse than the goyim!"?

MoishieCohen

Unfortunately this site lacks the facility to create a new thread, so I'm dumping this post in this thread although it is directed at another, older thread.

Those who have been following the campaign to raise money for Weberman may be interested in this story:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2147817/Rapist-scarlet-jacket-Whisky-swilling-grandfather-eye-young-women-drunken-attack-black-tie-ball-sparked-civil-war-society-stag-hunt-revered-him.html

Specifically, I quote:

Despite Norrish’s philandering reputation, while he was awaiting trial senior hunt members were so convinced of his innocence that last month they held a ‘testimonial meet’ in the stunning deer park at Castle Hill near Tiverton to mark his retirement at the end of the hunting season.

Hundreds turned out to the event, giving voluntary cash ‘subscriptions’ which were presented to Norrish at a dinner for 200 held in his honour at the Tiverton Hotel – an event which no doubt heaped further distress upon his victim and her family.

Not just the Chassidim then!

Jeff

Sorry, I won't trade Jewish fundamentalism for Christian fundamentalism.

(BTW, the New Testament has been translated into Yiddish).

Posted by: Yochanan Lavie | May 22, 2012 at 09:49 AM

Yochanan, I'm pretty certain No Light was referring to the internet.

Jeff


Jeff - they hate to admit that even with FLDS-like breeding rates, they're dying out.

Posted by: No Light | May 22, 2012 at 09:19 AM

I know; they're collapsing, but they think they'll bury us in the end.

They know nothing about the internet, but are scared and realize that the free and open information will be their downfall.

Posted by: Mike | May 22, 2012 at 09:23 AM

Yep. That's what it was all about.

The comments to this entry are closed.

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