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May 17, 2012

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Hugh7

"You could add that no Jew wants to die uncircumcised."

I know and know of Jews who are not circumcised and have no plans to die any other way, and Jews who only wish they could live and die not circumcised. Or do you mean "no True Jew" as in The "No True Scotsman" Fallacy?

Jeff

I suppose.

dh

Jeff, you either feel it or you don't. Huge problem with them is that mostly they don't either, but few want to be labeled as without faith. As for the ones that don't care about the label, who cannot be manipulated and who outgrew fairy tales, e.g. rebbe tales, then they don't have time for you.

Yochanan Lavie

I like the illustration. The baby is glowing. It looks like a Christian nativity scene.

Jeff

I’ll say one more thing. In most of these stories (again, this is the case in all traditions), there’s a guy who leads with “You won’t convince me!”, and the kindly kiruv guy says, “Well, let’s just have a friendly chat, then”, or some such nonsense – then of course, something miraculous happens and in the end, he’s convinced and becomes a talmid of the rebbe, or a born-again Christian, or a follower of a certain guru or lama (yes, they have these stories as well), or whatever.

Whenever I encounter these guys, they almost never try to engage me – and the once in a blue moon that they do, they give it up almost immediately. They seem to know, instinctively, that I’m not going to fall for their bullshit and that if they engage me, I’m going to hand them a platter of material that’s going to force them to actually examine their beliefs (chos v’sholem!) – so they tend to give me a wide berth.

I have the distinction of being the only Jew in 200 hundred years (most likely) whom a Chabad shliach has declined to put tefillin on (he told me he was "too busy", and he didn't mean just at that particular moment). Seriously - the one thing the Rebbe told them to do, if they did nothing else – and he couldn’t be bothered. My nephew and the MO rabbi I talk about (who, unfortunately, is very sympathetic to Chabad) still can’t get over it. They don’t even like to discuss it; they change the subject if I bring it up. They have no explanation for it and it makes them very uncomfortable.

Anyway, it's only one example. My entire life has consisted of one situation like this after another. My point is that I am the antithesis to these stories - and according to the purveyors, there's no such thing as an antithesis, because Hashem wants everyone to be frum. "Seek and ye shall find", as the Christians say. It's nonsense.

Jeff

I’ll say one more thing. In most of these stories (again, this is the case in all traditions), there’s a guy who leads with “You won’t convince me!”, and the kindly kiruv guy says, “Well, let’s just have a friendly chat, then”, or some such nonsense – then of course, something miraculous happens and in the end, he’s convinced and becomes a talmid of the rebbe, or a born-again Christian, or a follower of a certain guru or lama (yes, they have these stories as well), or whatever.

Whenever I encounter these guys, they almost never try to engage me – and the once in a blue moon that they do, they give it up almost immediately. They seem to know, instinctively, that I’m not going to fall for their bullshit and that if they engage me, I’m going to hand them a platter of material that’s going to force them to actually examine their beliefs (chos v’sholem!) – so they tend to give me a wide berth.

I have the distinction of being the only Jew in 200 hundred years (most likely) whom a Chabad shliach has declined to put tefillin on (he told me he was "too busy", and he didn't mean just at that particular moment). Seriously - the one thing the Rebbe told them to do, if they did nothing else – and he couldn’t be bothered. My nephew and the MO rabbi I talk about (who, unfortunately, is very sympathetic to Chabad) still can’t get over it. They don’t even like to discuss it; they change the subject if I bring it up. They have no explanation for it and it makes them very uncomfortable.

Anyway, it's only one example. My entire life has consisted of one situation like this after another. My point is that I am the antithesis to these stories - and according to the purveyors, there's no such thing as an antithesis, because Hashem wants everyone to be frum. "Seek and ye shall find", as the Christians say. It's nonsense.

Jeff

I don't know which is less likely, that the anti-frum father supposedly showed up at his son's wedding dressed in jeans and a t-shirt, or that he showed up wearing a "small kipa".

Posted by: under duress | May 18, 2012 at 07:38 AM

Right, this is also the sort of thing apologists put into their stories - "He had no respect for Yiddishkeit", yadda yadda. Makes the climax more dramatic.

Also, if the father was so anti-frum, why would he have tried to get a Rebbe dollar at any point in his life?

Posted by: AztecQueen2000 | May 18, 2012 at 08:30 AM

Well, he was "dragged by a friend", according to the story - but you're essentially right. None of it make sense.

As Jan said, it's a Hasidische "feel good" kiruv story. My brainwashed nephew has a drawerful of them.

AztecQueen2000

Also, if the father was so anti-frum, why would he have tried to get a Rebbe dollar at any point in his life?

Jeff

But they also dictated that he would promise to keep one request for his son.

Doesn't follow and makes little-to-no sense - however, it is precisely the sort of thing a frum person would consider important to include in a homiletic story. You said it yourself: "You could add that no Jew wants to die uncircumcised." It isn't true, but that's what they tell themselves.

Moishe, you know what? I'm 55 years of age. If the Invisible Man in the Sky wanted me to acknowledge his existence, he's had five and a half decades in which to convince me of it. As I said, I gave it three and a half (with a MUCH better attitude than the one with which you find me now). Nothing happened. I didn't even like the people.

I've asked my Lubavitcher nephew on numerous occasions, "If you are right, and I am wrong - why don't I believe? Why did I waste my entire youth?" Of course, he has no answer. No one ever does - which would be acceptable, if the people who represent these belief systems didn't insist that they work ALL OF THE TIME for ABSOLUTELY EVERYONE and that everyone is required to subscribe (or be damned). There is no such thing as a frummie (apart from the most liberal MO) or an evangelical who says, "Well, this works for me, but that doesn't mean it's the right path for you." Most of them wouldn't even be able to grasp the concept.

So you'll understand that miracle stories about this or that rebbe, shmaltzy stories about bubbe and zaide and life in the alter heim, etc., have no effect on me. Been there. Took the guided tour. I'm DONE.

MoishieCohen

I don't know which is less likely, that the anti-frum father supposedly showed up at his son's wedding dressed in jeans and a t-shirt, or that he showed up wearing a "small kipa".

Posted by: under duress | May 18, 2012 at 07:38 AM

Really? Seriously? Nitpicking on minor details? And your point is....?

Oh, and the father didn't approve of the son becoming frum, didn't want him marrying the girl and refused to give him any financial support - but he agreed to be circumcised as a wedding gift? WTF? Seriously?

Posted by: Jeff | May 18, 2012 at 03:18 AM


As the story goes... he was a very principled man. So his principles dictated that he would not support his son. But they also dictated that he would promise to keep one request for his son.

You could add that no Jew wants to die uncircumcised.

under duress

I don't know which is less likely, that the anti-frum father supposedly showed up at his son's wedding dressed in jeans and a t-shirt, or that he showed up wearing a "small kipa".

Jeff

Oh, and the father didn't approve of the son becoming frum, didn't want him marrying the girl and refused to give him any financial support - but he agreed to be circumcised as a wedding gift? WTF? Seriously?

Jeff

And, pray tell, why can't it be true??

And why would it hurt you to believe it (or for that matter some of the stories in the other religions) was true?

You know the famous adage...someone who believes none of the stories is an apikorus...someone who believes them all is a fool

Posted by: MoishieCohen | May 17, 2012 at 06:34 PM

I spent 35 years making my way through the various faith traditions. I heard plenty of stories. I never saw anything even remotely like that happen. No one whose opinion I respected saw anything like it. The few times someone claimed to have experienced something like that, s/he was the sort of person who had a fragile hold on reality and would believe absolutely anything, as long as it validated what s/he wanted to believe - and much of the time, upon examination, it ended up being second or third-hand information, anyway: "It happened to someone I know! It REALLY did!". There are a LOT of fringe personalities involved in these belief systems, particularly those of a fundamentalist nature.

And, of course, you can't tell this to a True Believer. The answer is always the same: "It didn't happen because you didn't believe." Of course, the fact that half the time in these stories, as in the story above, it happens to a nonbeliever (who, of course, then "turns pale" and ends up believing) escapes them. And, of course, when you point this out to them, they never have an answer. All you get is a blank stare, like a deer caught in the headlights.

I've spent much of my life surrounded by addictive personalities. I've seen how profoundly similar the addiction to a substance - drugs, alcohol - is to the addiction to a belief system. Denial, cognitive dissonance - it's all part of the package. The bottom line is that people talk themselves into believing whatever they want to believe.

under duress

I had no idea what city, city hospital or health department this was referring to until "…no greater savior than The New York Times". (Some of us don't know what the Daily Beast refers to either.)

Cry4TheChildren

Srinagar: Another infant has died at the GB Pant Hospital, Srinagar's only paediatric facility, taking the death toll to 359 in five months.

I see the people are not taking this tragedy lying down. Here is a followup to this sad state of affair.

Protest held outside Srinagar hospital over deaths of infants

Dozens of people today staged a demonstration outside a pediatrics hospital here where 350 newborn babies have died in the past five months.
The protestors, led by independent legislator from Langate Sheikh Rashid, gathered outside the GB Pant hospital at Sonawar in the cantonment
area and raised slogans against the administration for its alleged failure to provide adequate health care to the people.

The authorities ordered a probe into the deaths yesterday after the number of infants dying in two weeks reached 35.

"It is a grave concern for all of us that over 350 infants have died over the past five months at the hospital. It demonstrates negligence on the part of doctors and the government," Rashid said demanding immediate measures to provide best healthcare facilities to the patients.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Punjab/Chandigarh/Protest-held-outside-Srinagar-hospital-over-deaths-of-infants/SP-Article1-857281.aspx

David

Effectively, the Hasidic rabbis responded with a threat to make the streets run with rivers of their babies' blood if the city wouldn't stop trying to warn parents of the threat of infection their ritual posed. The health department backed off.

Am I getting this right? The Charedim are prepared to sacrifice their own babies rather than defer to Jewish and secular standards of hygiene? It just proves what a pagan, idolatrous, human sacrificial cult that they are.

Cry4TheChildren

2 baby's dying in the past tn years sure it's a tragedy but how many baby's die every week from baby food products approved by the FDA how many babies die from negligence in hospitals under the authority of the NYC Dept of Health?.

Tragedies, so may tragedies. I just read this heartbreaking story especially in light of the 2 deaths in the last 10 years.

Another infant dies in Srinagar's GB Pant hospital

Srinagar: Another infant has died at the GB Pant Hospital, Srinagar's only paediatric facility, taking the death toll to 359 in five months. The infant died when the state's Medical Education Minister RS Chib was visiting the hospital on Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah's orders.

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/another-infant-dies-in-srinagars-gb-pant-hospital/258586-3.html

ah-pee-chorus

The Satmar Rebbe used to say he never believed stories. After the second telling, it's already changed, and by the tenth telling, it's become totally false.
Posted by: Lawrence M. Reisman

i dont believe this story either.....(joke)

i guess that proves the broken clock theory.

seymour

"In response to that planned campaign, city officials told me, Hasidic rabbis and leaders threatened to keep parents from taking their sick infants to city hospitals."

sick very sick and would their flock be stupid enough to listen.

I guess they would since they still do MP

seymour

Posted by: TheRealJoe | May 17, 2012 at 06:07 PM

th problem is what they did not do because of their attitude of others not what they did


The police has resource that shomrim do not have

seymour

The Satmar Rebbe used to say he never believed stories. After the second telling, it's already changed, and by the tenth telling, it's become totally false.

Posted by: Lawrence M. Reisman | May 17, 2012 at 07:28 PM

interesting halacha moshe mesina is based on telling not second hand but maybe 100 hand

Lawrence M. Reisman

The Satmar Rebbe used to say he never believed stories. After the second telling, it's already changed, and by the tenth telling, it's become totally false.

ah-pee-chorus

sorry-i hadnt refreshed in a few minutes and didnt realize jeff and jancs said the same. great minds think alike.

ah-pee-chorus

MoishieCohen -

i'll bet little to none of that story is true. kiruv slime tend to lie a lot and i guess they must rationalize it by saying that the ends justify the means.

jancsipista

Jeff -Exactky its a made up story like all the other hassidishe feelgood stories,and i dont beleive a word of it either.

MoishieCohen

Posted by: MoishieCohen | May 17, 2012 at 06:09 PM

Moishe, they always make up stories like that. All religions have them. I don't believe for a moment it actually happened.

Posted by: Jeff | May 17, 2012 at 06:28 PM


And, pray tell, why can't it be true??

And why would it hurt you to believe it (or for that matter some of the stories in the other religions) was true?

You know the famous adage...someone who believes none of the stories is an apikorus...someone who believes them all is a fool

Jeff

Posted by: MoishieCohen | May 17, 2012 at 06:09 PM

Moishe, they always make up stories like that. All religions have them. I don't believe for a moment it actually happened.

 ruthie

moishiecohen
thanks for the rebbe story!
great

MoishieCohen

On the subject of Bris Milah, and with reference to Shmarya's Chabad links, allow me to share the following story with you, heard recently:

A Gerer hassid in Israel involved in Kiruv (outreach) attended the wedding of a BT-student of his. He noticed the father of the groom, dressed in jeans, t-shirt, small kipa etc, did not join in the dancing but remained seated throughout.

He explained that he did not approve of his son becoming frum, certainly not marrying a frum girl, and will not agree to support him financially. But he will honor one request, as a wedding gift. The son asked him to have a brit milah - as a man of honor he kept his promise and did it - and that's why he wasn't dancing.

The hasid was so moved by the story that he gave him a dollar note received from the Lubavitcher Rebbe he has always carried on his person.

The old man turned pale and revealed that many years before he had been dragged by a friend to the Rebbe to get a dollar. The Rebbe had looked at him intently and asked if he was circumcised. When he said no, the Rebbe told him he would get the dollar after his Bris.

Nice story I thought

Jeff

I seem to recall another group that puts its children in harm's way to get what it wants. Who was it?

Wait... it'll come to me...

TheRealJoe

The article might be true in the fact that the author isn't lying about anything.

however that where it STOP'S 2 baby's dying in the past tn years sure it's a tragedy but how many baby's die every week from baby food products approved by the FDA how many babies die from negligence in hospitals under the authority of the NYC Dept of Health?.

Now the Kletzky Murder never stops to be an easy way for the media to attack frum people. Nobody stops to think hay its precisely because Shomrim was called that a massive search effort was undertaken immediately, that lead to the case being cracked within 48hr's.

I sure the parents of thousands of missing children across america, who DID call 911 would have loved to be part of a community that doesn't wait days or weeks before beginning a search, sure the ending was horrible but would waiting 20 years for answers be any better?.

The community has failed on the molestation issue but lets not start mixing apples and oranges.

In final the trend is moving in the right direction on the molestation issue it's moving slowly some might say to slow but that's how shifts happen.

netflix

scum

A. Nuran

"Do what we tell you, or we kill the baby." That's what their tactics come down to.

Rochel

Another good article - The Daily Beast is widely read.

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