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May 20, 2012

Alleged Chabad Pedophile To Stand Trial

Rabbi Avrohom Glick and David Cyprys 5-2012Judge finds 41 of 53 counts against David Cyprys can be sustained and also finds testimony from former yeshiva head Rabbi Avrohom Glick was not credible. Glick had claimed he did not know about the abuse at the time it took place.

Rabbi Avrohom Glick and David Cyprys 5-2012
Rabbi Avrohom Glick, left, and David Cyprys, right (2011)

David Cyprys, who allegedly raped or sexually abused at least 12 children from Chabad's flagship school in Melbourne, Australia, will stand trial for his alleged crimes, a judge has just ruled. ABC News (Australia) reports that 41 charges were sustained, including multiple counts of rape, indecent assault and gross indecency with a child.

Manny Waks, who was there, writes:


…David Cyprys will stand trial for 40 of the initial 53 charges. The judge emphasised that this does not reflect any credibility issues with the victims, but rather that there were too many memory gaps, which would leave the jury in the future trial no choice but to dismiss them. Out of the remaining 40 charges, five are of rape. Cyprys pleaded Not Guilty to all of the charges.


The judge noted that the evidence by the victims and witnesses was compelling, credible and dignified. By stark contrast, the judge stated that (former Yeshivah Principal) Rabbi Glick’s evidence lacked any credibility and was unhelpful in the case. The judge specifically noted that it was “unfathomable” that Rabbi Glick did not know anything about the abuse prior to the early 2000s (you may recall that he changed his statement to reflect this). Hopefully this will cause a major re-think on the part of the Yeshivah leadership.


I’m now looking forward to the trial (at this stage the Directions Hearing to decide on the dates etc. will be held on 19 June) and to hold Yeshivah to account for its inaction and ongoing attempts to cover this abuse up.


I expect there will be a fair amount of media coverage on this and I will post all of them in due course.


Thanks again to everyone for your incredible support. Please never forget, so many of the victims and their families have been and are still doing it tough. Your support means a great deal to all of us!"

Comments

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herzog from chabad business district and his family will now be spending more money

""""Hopefully this will cause a major re-think on the part of the Yeshivah leadership.""""

What will really change their thinking is when Chabad of Australia gets taken down like the Catholic Church got taken down.

Sue Chabad and its leaders for everything, and take all their assets!

The start of jUstice. Finally

Ditto Tam!

The Judge stated: former Yeshivah Principal) Rabbi Glick’s evidence lacked any credibility and was unhelpful in the case. The judge specifically noted that it was “unfathomable” that Rabbi Glick did not know anything about the abuse prior to the early 2000s

ITS UNFATHOMABLE THAT GLICK REMAINS GAINFULLY EMPLOYED??? - APPALLING, SICKENING - You need to step down immediately... The Melbourne Jewish community deserve better!

(Sue Chabad and its leaders for everything, and take all their assets!)
Greed? Revenge?
Do you want justice or to destroy?
Do you want to reform the yeshiva leaders or take them down?
Which do you want more, to heal victims or bury yeshiva leaders?
Are you coming from a place of wanting to find solutions to improve yeshiva or eradicate it instead?

These false disciples of Judaism will get what they deserve as they rot away in jail .

(false disciples of Judaism )
Not extreme hatred and prejudice much eh?

pa why no defense of R. Groner? hes been gone many years now unable to stand up for himself and id say he needs more help defending his good name than cyprys. surely rabbi groner deserves a good advocate like you with much time on your hands to defend him. put your resources and influence to better and more holy use

Im curious why you have not taken to the noble task of defending the "big chief" who actually did much good in his life but instead u insist on defending cyprys at every turn?

even while shmarya aims to knock his big personality by bringing his alleged treatment of his dear wife into the picture ... you choose to remain silent ... but for cyprys youll go the extra mile and stick your neck out to defend him??

your a real puzzle PA!

i'm just wondering why your trying so hard to get him off the hook?


(Sue Chabad and its leaders for everything, and take all their assets!)
Greed? Revenge?
Do you want justice or to destroy?
Do you want to reform the yeshiva leaders or take them down?
Which do you want more, to heal victims or bury yeshiva leaders?
Are you coming from a place of wanting to find solutions to improve yeshiva or eradicate it instead?

Posted by: Pirkei Avot | May 20, 2012 at 11:14 PM

Unless the current management and teachers such as Glick put it in writing that they will call the police in at the first sign on abuse then the place should be closed down.

In the current case Glick is lucky to not be facing charges of failure to report....
Either way he must be sacked.

Rabbi Groner would have done differently if he had the proper information about this he did not know better but his intent was not evil.

Rabbi Groner was a wonderfully caring brilliant Rabbi who helped thousands of Jews. He never had any nefarious or evil intent. He was maybe unequipped to handle this situation properly.

"Unless the current management and teachers such as Glick put it in writing that they will call the police in at the first sign on abuse then the place should be closed down.

In the current case Glick is lucky to not be facing charges of failure to report....
Either way he must be sacked.

Posted by: Aussie | May 20, 2012 at 11:35 PM"

Rabbi Smuckler has said this in writing but it really needs to come from Rabbi Telsner, which is impossible.

Would be interesting if it can be proved that Rabbi Glick knew before 2000.

pa oh i agree ...thats not the issue ...... my question is to you. why are you so busy defending cyprys good name, hes a good father etc (can you hear the violins?) and not using the same energy to defend Groner whose achievements in life pale in comparison to yours and mine in community life as well as private life.... im sure he was a good father as well. just ask ct

Finally Waks is coming out openly with his "game plan". To sue Yeshivah. Thank you for being open and clear.

To be clear: If you want to sue Yeshivah, go ahead, but don't hide behind a mask of righteousness.

I wonder if this week's speech by the Rabbi will get interesting!

The lawsuit gravy train is a' comin',
Yeah, It's a' speedin' down the tracks,
Whoa! Get out of the way or you'll get run over by the likes of Manny Waks!

PA... we can only hope!

The Victoria Police should charge Rabbi Glick with s49A of the Crimes Act 1958 - Facilitating sexual offences against children.

Magistrate Luisa Bazzani used "Judge speak" to describe Rabbi Glick's evidence, stating it was unfathomable that he was unaware of what was going on - Translation - Rabbi Glick is lying his tzitzit off!!!

Hopefully at Cyprys's trial, more people will come forward with evidence against these scum perpetrators and facilitators.

PA,
Your anxiety over lawsuits aimed at Chabad assets is a good indication this would be an effective means of bringing about change.
Words of encouragement. Let's hope your prediction leads to serious legal actions. It's about time Chabad is held financially accountable for its criminal and antisocial activity.
They don't give a damn about the law or morality, but they do care about their wallets, which you rightly emphasize.

Rabbi Groner would have done differently if he had the proper information about this he did not know better but his intent was not evil.

Posted by: Pirkei Avot | May 20, 2012 at 11:41 PM

Bullshit!!!

Groner had all the info needed to do the right thing and chose not to.

The Victoria Police should charge Rabbi Glick with s49A of the Crimes Act 1958 - Facilitating sexual offences against children.

Magistrate Luisa Bazzani used "Judge speak" to describe Rabbi Glick's evidence, stating it was unfathomable that he was unaware of what was going on - Translation - Rabbi Glick is lying his tzitzit off!!!

Posted by: Elijah | May 21, 2012 at 12:23 AM

Glick can not be charged with this or with failure to report....If they could charge him they would...

One can only hope they looking at charging him with purjury...

(They don't give a damn about the law or morality, but they do care about their wallets, which you rightly emphasize.)
yeah they are amoral evil monsters, those sociopathic Rabbis and their rich jewish friends, you are not too antisemitic or hateful much, eh? No other explanation for their actions or inactions, they are pure evil in your mind.

PA its truly heartwarming to note that you have finally come to your senses and have managed to forgive the big chief for his failure in not delivering on the changes to the constitution you spent so much time agitating for.

i give you my blessing you should continue to come to your senses in all matters in your life!


Would be interesting if it can be proved that Rabbi Glick knew before 2000.

Posted by: Steven | May 20, 2012 at 11:48 PM

We all know that he knew b4 2000....His name is now mud and all respect is gone....

Best he can do now is resign from yeshivah and maybe get a job in his father filthy, dirty, disgusting bakery....

Hashem likes forgiveness. You want Him to forgive you, don't ya?

Whatever money Waks gets out of the Yeshiva, they should make a counter claim of all the unpaid fees of the 17 Waks kids as they went through the Yeshiva BR school system.

I have no doubt that if this will be taken into account, Family Waks Pty Ltd will end up paing the Yeshiva a large amount - and not the other way around.

Finally Manny, whatver happened to you there was appalling and disgusting. But your actions in working towards destroying this institution that has brought (and continues to bring) thousands of Jews tachas kanfei haShechina is unforgiveable and the retribution from HKBH for your behaviour will no doubt revibrate around the world.

I pity you already.

there is another story of a chabad rabbi who was moved from kolel in melbourne for gay behavior

he wound up thrown out of melbourne and landed in greatneck assisting shliach

many in chabad know the story

I agree with A. I pity the victims, I pity the perpetrators, I pity everyone in this entire sad story.

Aussie, who else do you hate? Come one, let it all out, give us your long list. Hate is like a disease, it takes hold inside a person and turns them ugly. Aussie you are ugly.

I agree with A. I pity the victims, I pity the perpetrators, I pity everyone in this entire sad story.

Posted by: Pirkei Avot | May 21, 2012 at 12:54 AM

I pity you....How do you sleep at night after sticking up for groner, glick and the institution that ruined so many lives??...

I sleep like a baby because I do not hate other Jews like you do so I don't stay up all night plotting to bury them. Look at all the good the yeshivah has done too. According to you it is all bad and that is just not accurate. According to you the yeshiva had malicious intent. According to you SD is totally guilty and cannot ever reform. You know everything. Maybe the court should save time and money and just let Aussie make the decisions without a trial.

PA - not taking personal swipe at you (although the same cannot be said for you swiping everybody that disagrees with you in this forum)

I cannot image anyone standing up for a pedophile or child rapist.

What the school did by protecting these individuals is unthinkable to any moral, upstanding member of the community (Jewish or not).

R’Groner & Glick and numerous others within Yeshiva protected the abusers and failed to protect their MOST IMPORTANT ASSET – IT’S CHILDREN!

If they cannot protect their greatest asset then they do not deserve a place in our community.

I hope they all sue and perhaps we will again start with a clean slate – minus the corruption, nepotism, unprofessionalism and contemptuously arrogant leadership we have seem in the past.

Money and saving the good name of Chabad seem to be the only consideration. So I guess if that's the most valued thing at Melbourne Yeshiva College - then that's what it needs to be stripped of.

PA,
Anti-semitism in your mind explains why I or anyone else would care about children being abused in a yeshiva?
So, following your reasoning, should Chabad rabbis join forces with NAMBLA (North American Man-Boy Love Association), the only ones who will protect the children are the anti-semites?
Do you even know what anti-semitism is? Seriously.

I just pray that Chabad makes up for past mistakes and figures out how to cut a deal that in exchange for not facing financial law suits, they are going to totally revamp their abuse reporting guidelines.

its interesting that it was Rabbi Braun who spent the past 10+ years in Australia who came out with the permission to report letter in Crown Heights.

Each Jew no matter how badly he has sinned can return. Each of us must give benefit of the doubt to each Jew.

Does caring about abused children have to entail hatred for the sick abuser? Does caring for abused children entail assuming the yeshiva has evil intent? Control your anger. Yeshiva may have made big mistakes and I think they must realise that by now. No need to bury them because you are angry.

I sleep like a baby because I do not hate other Jews like you do so I don't stay up all night plotting to bury them. Look at all the good the yeshivah has done too. According to you it is all bad and that is just not accurate. According to you the yeshiva had malicious intent. According to you SD is totally guilty and cannot ever reform. You know everything. Maybe the court should save time and money and just let Aussie make the decisions without a trial.

Posted by: Pirkei Avot | May 21, 2012 at 01:03 AM

Emanuel I do not hate any jew...I do hate those like Glick and Groner who fail in their obligation to protect kids entrusted to them from abuse....

Glick and Groner both knew of abuse as early as 1984 with the Motty Yomtov case....They chose to do nothing....

Cyprys will have his day in court and will get a fair trial...
But no matter what the outcome the name of glick, groner and yeshivah will be mud....

BTW...You big chabadnick you...Had a shave today??....)))

I just pray that Chabad makes up for past mistakes and figures out how to cut a deal that in exchange for not facing financial law suits, they are going to totally revamp their abuse reporting guidelines.

Posted by: Q? | May 21, 2012 at 01:08 AM

Fat chance of glick and the trustees resigning so no way to avoid paying up...

Just ask Emanuel aka Pirkei Avot if he plans to resign...

Well said, SpeakOutAboutAbuse. The victims, and their families, in this sad case *did* speak out about the crimes being perpetrated, at the time and thereafter. The Yeshiva 'authorities' promised to 'take care of it'... What an incredible stroke of 'bad luck' that Rabbi Glick, a Yeshiva 'authority' called to take the stand in evidence over the past few days was specifically singled out by the magistrate for being 'unhelpful', along with her damning finding that his statements were 'unfathomable'.... whereas all the other witnesses were credited with conducting themselves in a compelling and dignified manner.
This has everything to do with the Yeshiva management, then and now. Healing starts with acknowledging the real faults of the past, not by moving on and pretending otherwise. That's exactly what Groner tried (and failed grossly) with his 'oh him, I thought we'd fixed him' bubbameisses.

The children are just the cannon fodder for the organization.

Real purpose, at all costs, is to provide a living for all of the main families, and rabbis.

That is why rabbi Groner, and rabbi Glick kept it under wraps, so it doesn't rock the gravy boat.

I wonder if this week's speech by the Rabbi will get interesting!


Posted by: assume | May 20, 2012 at 11:52 PM

Last week was amazing.I never thought I would be going in to bat for Rabbi Glick but this time I am.Telsner embarassed Rabbi Glick in public by stressing that anyone who besmirches the dead will never behold the Divine Presence in the next world.Rabbi Glick was between a rock & a hard place in court & anything that he said that showed Rabbi Groner in a poor light was but an unfortunate consequence of Rabbi Glick telling the truth.Rabbi Glick was following Dina Mulchasa Dina WHICH IS THE TORAH in this case.
Oh yes R Telsner also said that if you embarass anyone in public you too will never behold the Divine Presence in the next world.Seems like R Telsner just shot himself in the foot.No?

So Aussie you hate E cause he shaves? Is that a sin? You just enjoy insulting people if they don't agree with you. You could do with a bit of teshuvah, mate.

Wouldn't the fact that Cyprys, AFAIK, hasn't reoffended in the past 20+ years, show that he has been 'cured' and maybe even done a teshuva of sorts?

I agree with B. If he is found to be guilty keep him away from kids at all costs but since he has not reoffended in 20+ years the court may and should take that into account. And so should we. Give the guy a break for working to straighten himself out

Perhaps he was hoisted by his own petard??

Wouldn't the fact that Cyprys, AFAIK, hasn't reoffended in the past 20+ years, show that he has been 'cured' and maybe even done a teshuva of sorts?

Sure, obviously he is showing a high degree of penance and remorse by entering his strong plea of Not Guilty...

The plea is all about legal strategy. Some people plead guilty when they are not and the other way around. It's about getting the best outcome.

So Aussie you hate E cause he shaves? Is that a sin? You just enjoy insulting people if they don't agree with you. You could do with a bit of teshuvah, mate.

Posted by: Pirkei Avot | May 21, 2012 at 01:40 AM

Not at all Emanuel....I don't even think we have ever met....(not that I can remember)...

I don't like yeshivah apologists who make excuses for the wrong doings of Groner and Glick....

You see no wrong in what Cyprys has done...You see no wrong in the cover up of this and other cases...

Any decent person would feel the same way that I do about your kind...

Whatever money Waks gets out of the Yeshiva, they should make a counter claim of all the unpaid fees of the 17 Waks kids as they went through the Yeshiva BR school system.

I have no doubt that if this will be taken into account, Family Waks Pty Ltd will end up paing the Yeshiva a large amount - and not the other way around.

Not so fast.There is another school of thought that the Waks family are in fact one of the largest donors that the Yeshivah has ever had!That's right,it's not a typo.You see the Yeshivah provides no accountability or transparency in fiscal matters.The Yeshivah receives State & Federal funding on a per student basis.If that funding exceeds the cost of the education provided then the Yeshivah makes a profit.I would very much like the Yeshivah to provide full accountability so that donors could be confident all was in order.

My original letter to the community some months back related to this matter but of course it fell on deaf ears within the management of the Yeshivah.

Aussie is a broken DVD. Don't agree with him and you are indecent. Aussie the paragon of all that is correct and good!

PA

If you really care about SD, and I suspect you REALLY do, you should advise him to plead guilty and apologize to all his victims for the harm he did to them. He may then get a lesser sentence.

PA - what load of crap. Irrespective - if he was remorseful he would have pleaded guilty. Strategy my Arse! He wants to avoid prison. If he pleaded guilty he sentence would have been reduced taking into account his sincere remorse. Where did you get your law degree? Same place you got your Torah leaning by all accounts...

IF SD is guilty it is of course terribly wrong. All abuse is disgusting and wrong. I feel if so he has reformed. Yeshivah did not do a cover up, they just bungled things. Rabbi Groner and Glick were not evil, they were not equipped to handle this issue. Glick should resign but he will not, he will be given a nice retirement instead. Time for new blood. Lawsuits will not change anything but will make some people rich.

@Pirkei Avot

Who are U kidding the Chabad leadership know's he's guilty they are just figuring out how to save the school.

He should want to go to prison? Wanting to stay out of prison makes him evil too? Even if Mickey Mouse you are totally unrealistic and unreasonable. No one wants to go to prison even if guilty!

Pirke Avot 2:6
He saw a skull floating on the water ;he said to it:Because you drowned others they drowned you;& ultimately those who drowned you will themselves be drowned.

From this we can surely infer that those who destroyed the lives of the victims (& indeed killed some spiritually,as more than a few left the path because of this)will themselves be drowned.

As far as forgiveness goes that can only be given by the victims,not you, not me, & not even Hashem! That's right not even Hashem.Yom Kippur atones for sins man commited against Hashem & not for sins commited againt ones fellow man.The offender must ask for & receive forgiveness from whomever he has wronged.

Revenge has no place here or indeed anwhere in Yiddishkeit that I am aware of.Please correct me if I am wrong.

Never said we have to forgive SD that is for the alleged victims. Said we have to give benefit of the doubt and not throw stones over unproved allegations.

PA
I feel if so he has reformed.

Why, because he told you so. How the heck can you know that???

PA - what load of crap. Irrespective - if he was remorseful he would have pleaded guilty. Strategy my Arse! He wants to avoid prison. If he pleaded guilty he sentence would have been reduced taking into account his sincere remorse. Where did you get your law degree? Same place you got your Torah leaning by all accounts...

Posted by: SteakOutAboutAbuse | May 21, 2012 at 02:11 AM

Just for your information....
If a defendant pleads guilty and spares the victims from a drawn out court trial then the defendant is entitled to a reduced jail period....
That's how the court system and the law works...

Never said we have to forgive SD that is for the alleged victims. Said we have to give benefit of the doubt and not throw stones over unproved allegations.

Posted by: Pirkei Avot | May 21, 2012 at 02:29 AM

What doubt is there to give the benefit of??...

Mickey Mouse, you picked a good name.
How would you know he is guilty and if so if he has not reformed?

Aussie, actually that is not true at all. Studies have shown that guilty pleas often have no measurable effect on sentences in Victoria. The lack of reofending has a greater effect on sentencing than a guilty plea.

It seems the facts tell us that courts in general are mostly concerned if the suspect is likely to offend in the future rather than what they did in the past.

Aussie: regarding Motty Yomtov - please tell us more!

It is said that in war the first casualty is the truth.
It seems to me that when troubles occur as they have here the first casualty is Halacha.

Why doesn't the distinguished Rabbinate make a pronouncement about this issue & address the matter in the finest detail of how this should play out?

Maybe his alleged 'tshuva' is like his plea... all strategic.

PIRKEI AVOT;One can only be overwhelmed by your prodigious intellect, your rationalty and knoweledge of ethics and morality. Thank you for your wise imput.

Hey PA
You jackass!
The ONLY thing that changed the Catholic Church was a couple billion dollar hit on their coffers.

Nothing else worked!

Chabad in Australia should be hit so hard that 770 should feel the blast/shockwave!

PA, your views are gross and obscene. Jews are meant to be a light unto the nations, but instead you are content to pervert the essence of Judaism to something entirely different, to turn the other cheek as it were. Your adherence to irrelevancies and semi-legal pseudo-religious mumbo jumbo makes no difference whatsoever. Your shtick is starting to wear real thin.

I am appalled. I am sure many others are appalled.

Survivors of abuse perpetrated by agents of Chabad Lubavitch are not motivated by hate, or revenge, or greed, but justice. It is very simple. Justice, justice shall you pursue.

Collateral damage to YBR or supporters or those implicated in the crimes or the coverup is not intended...but it's a given. You can bank it right now. It may even go as far as the JCCV or beyond given Michelle Coleman's proximity to a key party. I am sure the victims don't give a rats about what happens to YBR - YBR didn't give a rats about them so why reciprocate now?

Chabad Lubavitch can deny its culpability and responsibility till the friggin cows come home, but civil redress is right and proper here. Thankfully, the standard of proof in a civil case is only on the balance of probabilities, and it's pretty damn probable that people were harmed.

Chabad Lubavitch does NOT own Judaism. Chabad Lubavitch is not above the law. Chabad Lubavitch has no place in civilised society if this is their response to harms to fellow Jews.

PA, there is nothing you can say, no action you can take, no argument you can mount, that will change the fact that SD is going to trial and will do serious time in the big house, and that damages will be forthcoming. You are inconsequential to this process and can be safely disregarded.

PA. Take a good look at your own middos before proselytizing to everyone else.
Furthermore. You are incorrect on many points. Too many that I care to mention. However I will mention this:

Pedophiles cannot reform. They cannot be cured or treated. Once a pedophile, always a pedophile and the studies prove it. So before u preach your rubbish, just be aware that the only place for pedophiles are behind bars.

Pirkei AvotGo and wipe youre tohes with youre kind of toireh you brain damaged retard.

Will the Kramer and Cyprys suit be combined? The Kramer victims are in the US as well - so perhaps the case could be heard there instead. Kramer victims may have an easier case - they were molested after the Yeshiva coverup.
If one has information, who in Melbourne is handling?

Pirkei Avot, keep showing the FM readership your Chabad-Lubavitcher mindset. Pull back the mustache. Expose the fangs.

Hey PA
You jackass!

The Cyprys creep has not reoffended I read...

HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT ?

Maybe he KILLS his victims instead!
All sorts of kids go 'missing' in Australia

You cannot reform pedophiles!

My daughter was physically molested in front of my eyes by a well respected Medical doctor

It was a real case of Dr Jeckel and Mr Hyde!

I SCREAMED "leave her alone!" then the @#%& family thought I over reacted!!!

I later found out he had his medical license taken away by New York and California for molesting some women and may have served time for molesting a 12 yr old girl years earlier in California.

Do I believe in a fair trial? Yes sir!

But with a guilty verdict then that Cyprys creep ought to be put in an animal cage, soak it good with gasoline and lighted up!

EAT THAT jackass!

aussie the mommy nation.lets all sing along together songs like " Waltzing Matilda
" and "Hey Santa Clause you...........,,,,,,,,Ho Ho Ho." ps i was mocking P. A.Have no knowledge if he has any intellect whatsoever.

Hello people if this Rabbi knew and did not report these heinous crimes to the police then he has failed the community and more importantly he has failed the victims. It is not up to the Rabbi to decide if you inform on a fellow Jew / follow secular law or ignore such a thing!

This Cyprus is not in need of psychiatric help or a couple of prayers he needs to be locked up to protect society. If anything I'm amazed nobody put a bullet to this freaks head a long time ago.

I agree with B. If he is found to be guilty keep him away from kids at all costs but since he has not reoffended in 20+ years the court may and should take that into account. And so should we. Give the guy a break for working to straighten himself out

Posted by: Pirkei Avot | May 21, 2012 at 01:47 AM

In the civil law there are special cases where the statute of limitations does not apply.This I believe is such a case.
In Halacha there is no such concept of a statute of limitations.Correct?
If the victims wish to persue this matter & they certainly do wish to pursue the matter then that should be the end of the matter.Who are you or I or anyone else to be speculating on how things should play out here?
In Halacha there is not the concept of jail as we know it in the secular world.
Halacha is about tikkun(correction)& sometimes that tikkun is far more severe than a jail sentence.Nevertheless within the jail system there is provision for certain types of customers to correct their ways.Rehabilitation & retraining programs for example are on offer in many cases.Our system does have certain aspects that are constructive to the offender whilst at the same time giving protection to the community.Many war criminals did not reoffend.Should time have been a mitigating factor in their punishment?Surely not.Victims of the crimes alleged here have an abnormally high suicide rate & when suicide does occur I would suggest that the death was more murder than suicide.

Aussie, actually that is not true at all. Studies have shown that guilty pleas often have no measurable effect on sentences in Victoria. The lack of reofending has a greater effect on sentencing than a guilty plea.

Posted by: Pireki Avot | May 21, 2012 at 03:02 AM

It seems the facts tell us that courts in general are mostly concerned if the suspect is likely to offend in the future rather than what they did in the past.

Posted by: Pireki Avot | May 21, 2012 at 03:11 AM


Emanual you are wrong....
An early guilty plea does get a discount in the county court...Ask any lawyer who will confirm this...

And the chances of a suspect being likely to reoffend has no bearing on jail time given....It would effect the suspect when comes time for parole...
Also Victoria now has laws in place which allow for a pedo to virtually never get out even after they done their time...
There is a whole bunch of them now being forced by law to live just outside the walls of Arrarat prison in the old prison guard houses...


Will the Kramer and Cyprys suit be combined? The Kramer victims are in the US as well - so perhaps the case could be heard there instead. Kramer victims may have an easier case - they were molested after the Yeshiva coverup.
If one has information, who in Melbourne is handling?

Posted by: Yet another Yeshiva student | May 21, 2012 at 08:14 AM

These 2 cases can NOT be joined and heard as one....
Both must be heard in Melbourne where the alleged offences took place...

If you have information then contact Moorabin sex crimes unit...(That's the big place corner South rd and Nepean highway)...

Worth remembering that yeshivah and the cover up is not on trial here....
That will to a point come at the parlimentary inquiry....

I agree with B. If he is found to be guilty keep him away from kids at all costs but since he has not reoffended in 20+ years the court may and should take that into account. And so should we. Give the guy a break for working to straighten himself out

Posted by: Pirkei Avot | May 21, 2012 at 01:47 AM

Just because there is not a victim who came forward in this case by no means should be seen as proof that cyprys hasn't reoffended in the last 20 years....

These 2 cases can NOT be joined and heard as one....
Both must be heard in Melbourne where the alleged offences took place...

If you have information then contact Moorabin sex crimes unit...(That's the big place corner South rd and Nepean highway)...

Worth remembering that yeshivah and the cover up is not on trial here....
That will to a point come at the parlimentary inquiry....

Posted by: Aussie | May 21, 2012 at 11:09 PM

I should have been more clear. I am working on the assumption that there will be a civil suit that relates to the cover up and that there is a pattern here.

I would like to help the victims by providing them with more evidence that would help their case.

I am not trying to benefit personally, although I do think that my parents should be given a refund! But that applies to a lot of people.

I think the victims of Kramer need all the help and support from the local Melbourne community because our institution was in a position to stop Kramer.

I should have been more clear. I am working on the assumption that there will be a civil suit that relates to the cover up and that there is a pattern here.

I would like to help the victims by providing them with more evidence that would help their case.

I am not trying to benefit personally, although I do think that my parents should be given a refund! But that applies to a lot of people.

I think the victims of Kramer need all the help and support from the local Melbourne community because our institution was in a position to stop Kramer.

Posted by: Yet another Yeshiva student | May 22, 2012 at 12:20 AM

Groner and Glick are personally reponsible for every kid molested by Kramer after he left Australia....

It well may come down to a class action suit against yeshivah and Glick....But that will have to wait till the trials are over....

Groner and Glick are personally reponsible for every kid molested by Kramer after he left Australia....

It well may come down to a class action suit against yeshivah and Glick....But that will have to wait till the trials are over....

Posted by: Aussie | May 22, 2012 at 01:11 AM

I think that the powers responsible understand what lies ahead. Because there are people like me with information that can be provided to a class action. Remorse, accountability, transparency etc are what I am waiting for.

I think that the powers responsible understand what lies ahead. Because there are people like me with information that can be provided to a class action. Remorse, accountability, transparency etc are what I am waiting for.

Posted by: Yet another Yeshiva student | May 22, 2012 at 01:47 AM

I wish you well but at the same time if you waiting for remorse or transparency I wouldn't hold my breath....
Moshiach will likely come b4 we get that....))

I wish you well but at the same time if you waiting for remorse or transparency I wouldn't hold my breath....
Moshiach will likely come b4 we get that....))

Posted by: Aussie | May 22, 2012 at 01:54 AM

Then the cards will fall where they fall. There are plenty of people like me that have information that would be relevant for a class action suit. So far, the scope of questioning has related to one alleged perpetrator.
But one day someone will have a choice of perjury or answering this simple question: "what abuse was reported to you (physical, sexual etc) and what did you do about it"

Pirkei Avot, I'm glad you provided the link to the Chabad article about imprisonment. You obviously agree with the Chabad interpretation of how punishments should follow Torah. Then we can correctly assume that the punishment of death specified in Leviticus is appropriate for David Cyprys and other paedophiles.

Pirkai Avots brilliant logic states the true victim in this sorry saga is David Cyprys .
This is because according to PA
"it was a long time ago "," he is now changed" "he is a good family man " .

PA also believes that the "alledged "victims are only coming forward to tell their story as part of a grab for cash .

With logic like this I now feel ashamed to to associate with chaisidic jews .

It is such a shame they are destroying their own religion

PA is not emanuel. It is almost certainly Ms Pinni Flescher

Pinni is not his partner anymore.

Michelle Coleman is and I suspect she is PA.

As Ilana Leeds so rightly said on another thread "paedophiles are cunning and charming people who use others".

No need to say any more Pirkei Avot!

Ironic that there is so much moral outrage at molesters, BUT then simple blog rules of decency are being trampled like

1. Not pretending to be other people (Pinni Flescher) (2 above) (not how you spell her name)

2. Incorrectly outing people who want to stay anonymous, (PA is various people who probably never post here)

3. Insults and language etc

Chillul Hashem

PA is not emanuel. It is almost certainly Ms Pinni Flescher

Posted by: Pinni Flescher | May 22, 2012 at 05:27 PM

Yes it is....This has been confirmed by things he has said and asked in shuel this week....

If you in any doubt then ask Pirkei Avot how the ATO investigation into him for tax evasion went....

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha...

I love this this post..
Please keep the anger alive until the scumbags are behind bars .

Last night (coincidentally, while I was reading this page) the ABC had two current-affairs TV programs about abuse:

The second item on the 7.30 Report had a follow-up story about the long lasting effects on survivors of systemic brutality (including rape) going back decades at Australia's HMAS Leeuwin Barrracks in Freemantle. The victims were junior recruits, boys as young as 15 and 16, at the time. Some of them had long careers in the Navy and one interviewee reported being witness in 1992 to continuations of the same culture, this time being visited upon female crew of HMAS Swan who were being violently harassed by a gang of male officers.

Later, Four Corners had yet another expose` ("Unholy Silence") of silence and cover-ups by the RC church in sex abuse cases. It reported that the Victorian government is holding a joint-party parliamentary inquiry into the way religious and other non-government organisations respond to sex abuse cases, saying, "The Government was pressured into holding the inquiry after the release of a police report that criticised the Catholic Church's handling of abuse issues." It also said that "there is now a growing demand for the Federal Government to hold a national inquiry to assess the true extent of sexual abuse by all church groups and to assess the programs that have been put in place to assist victims and deliver them compensation."

This was further followed up this morning on two ABC Radio programs. In "AM" there was a segment, "Catholic Priests Accused of Sex Abuse Cover-Up", in which Patrick Parkinson, a professor of law at the University of Sydney made comments.

Also, on Radio National's "Breakfast" program there was a segment "New Church Cover-Up Allegations" in which Wayne Chamley, a spokesman for Broken Rites Australia, made the point about the Victorian inquiry that Parliamentarians do not have investigative or forensic skills to find out, not just "what happened", but, importantly, "what was allowed to happen." (The latter was a reference to the practice of moving suspects to other places or countries.) He said that his organisation is pushing for a Commonwealth-based inquiry, preferably a Royal Commission with powers of subpoena, of compelling testimony and the like. Speaking about victim support, he also drew a crucial distinction between counselling (which some of them get) and treatment (which is not provided but is important for their long term survival and wellbeing).

It occurs to me that Jewish victims could benefit from an alliance with, or at least advice from Broken Rites in how to see to it that the Jewish community be included in work to assess and improve how Jewish religious leaders deal with such matters and to have the Jewish community included in any public inquiries into this.

Links: (For the time-being, video or audio is available online for all three; the audio ones are downloadable as podcasts.)

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/2012/06/28/3535079.htm

http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2012/s3537491.htm

http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/breakfast/new-church-cover-up-allegations-wayne-chamley/4106424

P.S. This comment by Pinchas Steinberg on a "Cross Currents" article by Yitzchok Adlerstein is worthwhile reading for teachers and parents interested in preventive educational measures.

http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2011/07/14/yadeinu-shafchu-es-hadam-hazeh/comment-page-2/#comment-395126

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