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April 24, 2012

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seymour

but visitors always respected the place."

but not these visitors


question to all

why did they do this must be some reason no mattet how warped it may be

Bassy the Haredi Slayer

The Haredim are Priceless Antiquities.

heshyfriedman

Kol hakovod to the chareidi heroes.
We don't need idolatry in our holy land. Israel needs to be Jewish not international. If people want to see christianity they can go to rome and see the pope.

Jake

Preparing the Land of Israel for Mashiach. Destroying the remnants of idolatry in their minds.

seymour

Posted by: heshyfriedman | April 24, 2012 at 04:02 PM

if you truly feel that way do not complain when others destroy Jewish artifacts since to them those are idolatry. and if they want to see Jews they can go to Boro park or willie

Yaakov

Sickening.

David

This is an act of barbarity akin to the Taliban destroying the Buddhas of Bamiyan.

Unfortunately because these imbeciles have no worthy education, they don't realise the significance of their vandalism.

Yochanan Lavie

Islamic fundamentalists are desecrating the Temple Mount, as they destroyed the Buddhas in Afghanistan. The Salafists of Egypt would like to destroy the pyramids. I am sick and tired of fundie barbarians destroying artifacts.

jancsibacsi

heshyfriedman-In reality you guys are destroying youreselfs ,youre warped mind is youre own worst enemy in the end sof kol sof youre demise is getting closer and closer bimhayru beyomaini.

Yaakov

The charedim who did this have the same mindset as the Taliban.

Same mind different costume.

David

Ten years or even one year ago it would have been unheard of for the Charedim to do something like this.

Because the Charedim are being allowed to operate without restraint, since no one has the balls to do anything about them, they now know they can do anything they like without punishment.

It is only a matter of time before they start committing Taliban like atrocities against people - this is just the beginning.

jancsibacsi

David-I SWEAR AN ANIMAL LIKE A DOG IS MORE HUMAN AND ACT MORE CIVILIZED THEN THEESE MINDLESS MORONS

Litvish

Re: heshyfriedman

Please post the following on every thread that this pervert comments. It was written by Shmarya on 11 October, 2011.

"We know that Heshy Friedman from the old Heshy's House blog is a JPAC leader. The rest remain anonymous, along with the Mea Shearim rabbis it claims endorse its actions.

I think it's time to out every one of these people."

http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2011/10/haredi-fringe-group-claims-molestation-of-boys-has-surged-since-same-sex-marriage-bill-passed-in-ny-345.html

Abu Jihad Schneerson

Now it is adamantly clear:heshyfriedman is W4M and he is a troll!He made the mistake to be way too extreme in his wording.It just doesn't sound real;it sounds for what it is:a provocation and a taunt.The nasty freak (who I guess in real life is religious like Hugh Hefner)enjoys himself tremendously playing the part of the uber-religious/puritan bigot which he is not,thus provoking our anger.I guess he is a 50 year old totally secular and well learned guy(and not that illitterate imbecile he so carefully plays) whose hobby is laughing his bollocks off at our expense.

anuran

Waiting for the usual...
1) There's no proof haredim did this
2) If they were haredim they were a couple nuts, not representative of haredi views
3) Besides it was idolatrous
4) It's the fault of the Chilonim for not destroying it when we told them to

Friar Yid

Like David and Yaakov, I also immediately thought of the Bamiyan Buddhas. For a people who have known erasure, censorship and desecration in just about every terrible form known to man, this is incredibly sad and shameful.

seymour

Posted by: Abu Jihad Schneerson | April 24, 2012 at 06:56 PM

sorry but there are people who really think like that

Dr. Dave

I used to think that the Jews had some better claim to the land because they respected other religions and didn't desecrate their artifacts (the Buddhas destroyed by the Taliban also leapt to mind), or cemeteries as did the Muslims.

Evidently, I was wrong.

Alter Kocker

Personally, any destruction of any antiquity is a crime against humanity. I do not give one clear fuck who you think your god is and what in your dishevelled little minds YOU think he wants. Antiquities are our COMBINED legacy, not just Jews, but all peoples on this planet.

That being said, if the perpetrators of this heinous act are ever caught, may they be hosed down with lighter fluid, returned to their small ignorant enclaves and set ablaze. How dare they!

Alter Kocker

PS Heshy Friedman
W4M was an irritating excuse for a comedian. You on the other hand are a scum-sucking pig. And if you are really chareidi: May your wife, sister, mother and daughter all have carnal relations with every barnyard animal in your vicinity AND may they do it on the bimah of your shul.

jj

Heshy, its no wondr your wife left you. Surprised she wwaited as long as she did

abcdef

Idolatry is idolatry, even if it's a 2000 year old idol, or 1500 year old Christian mosaic - the Torah demands they be destroyed.

If you don't believe in the Torah, then don't believe anything, but don't choose what you like and don't like, and what sounds politically correct or not.

Dovit

Idolatry is idolatry, even if it's a 2000 year old idol, or 1500 year old Christian mosaic - the Torah demands they be destroyed.

If you don't believe in the Torah, then don't believe anything, but don't choose what you like and don't like, and what sounds politically correct or not.
-----------------------

So Christians and Muslims can destroy Jewish antiquities all they want now, since their religions say Judaism is idolatry, too?

abcdef

"So Christians and Muslims can destroy Jewish antiquities all they want now, since their religions say Judaism is idolatry, too?

Posted by: Dovit | April 24, 2012 at 10:21 PM "

Why do totally ignorant people write here? Islam and Christianity do not hold Judaism to be idolatry at all; they hold Judaism to be either a corruption (Islam), or outdated (Christianity).

Shmarya

Idolatry is idolatry, even if it's a 2000 year old idol, or 1500 year old Christian mosaic - the Torah demands they be destroyed.

If you don't believe in the Torah, then don't believe anything, but don't choose what you like and don't like, and what sounds politically correct or not.

Posted by: abcdef | April 24, 2012 at 10:15 PM
Dovit

Please.

1. According to halakha, what is idolatry for a Jew is not necessarily idolatry for a non-Jew.

2. A molten image – a statue, for example – is a greater halakhic problem than a two dimensional floor.

3. Following your logic, we should destroy all churches everywhere. But this is against halakha, too.

4. There's a halakhic concept of darkei shalom. We don't do things that are hurtful to non-Jews unless those things are absolutely unavoidable halakhicly. There was no unavoidable imperative to destroy that mosaic.

5. If we want Jews to be treated kindly by Christians, we have to treat Christians (and Christianity) kindly – especially places where we are the majority. This also is darkei shalom and is discussed in halakha as such.

The sad thing is, there are many supposedly frum Jews like you who don't know the halakhot and who lack basic menchlikeit.

There is a world, and we all have to live in it.

It's about time you learned that.

GN

dolatry is idolatry, even if it's a 2000 year old idol, or 1500 year old Christian mosaic - the Torah demands they be destroyed.

If you don't believe in the Torah, then don't believe anything, but don't choose what you like and don't like, and what sounds politically correct or not.

Posted by: abcdef | April 24, 2012 at 10:15 PM

Yet God in the Torah allowed things like cherubim to be made by hand with gold for the mercy seat (perhaps that is a form of idolatry to non-Jews (Ex. 25:18), etc..... But don't choose what you like and don't like. What's idolatry to you is a beautiful old mosaic for the civilized world.

Abu Jihad Schneerson

abcdef,I've gor news for you!Muslims indeed view Jews as idol worshippers because they consider tomb-worshipping,astrology and believing some shady mekubbal rabbi has any supernatural power as shirk=politheism/idol worship.

David

Mark my words - the Charedim are getting so extreme that I would not be the least surprised if, within a few years, they commit an act or acts of terrorism, Chas v'Shalom.

They already have the basic ingredients - little to no education, insularity, refusal to work or otherwise participate in society, deification of their leaders, a willingness to die for their beliefs and a cult ideology.

Jews need to understand that Charedism is substantially disconnected from Halachic Judaism and is already totally disconnected from menschlichkeit.

Elly Bromberg

Initial estimates suggest that extremist haredi elements may have been behind the act.

I sincerely hope this turns out not to be the case. Perhaps I hope in vain.

As to halacha, I'm not a posek. But once all followers have died, it is likely that an avodah zara may have become "battul". Has anyone actually come and worshipped at this mosaic in the last century? (on this point, I stand to be corrected).

barry

Did the Korlin-Stalin Rebbe take the opportunity to destroy the idols displayed at the Israel Museum during his recent visit?

זרע לבטלה

Sorry but I don't get what the hell I wrong with all you guys? Is there anything "significant" with עבודה זרה. I think on this issue even the Hardcore zionists should agree that it should be destroyed!! I thought they claim it to be a "Jewish" state.

David

Sorry but I don't get what the hell I wrong with all you guys? Is there anything "significant" with עבודה זרה. I think on this issue even the Hardcore zionists should agree that it should be destroyed!! I thought they claim it to be a "Jewish" state.

Posted by: זרע לבטלה | April 25, 2012 at 06:00 AM

Who said it was עבודה זרה? Do the people who made it even exist anymore? Do they visit it? It wasn't even discovered until 1986 and so has probably been unused and unseen for centuries.

Would you like to see the cultural heritage of mankind destroyed?

What did you think of the Taliban destroying the Bamiyan Buddhas?

Do you know who destroyed this artefact? Will you tell the police so they can be punished? Was it you?

Yaakov

It would be possible to rely on the opinion of the Meiri and others that Christianity is not avodah zarah. The problem is, Rav Eliyashiv holds that it is, and so there is no chance that Israeli charedim could possibly accept that.

This is an example where no effort at apologetics can whitewash the inhumanity and idiocy of the charedi Weltanschauung. They are just not participants in humanity any more. I'm literally nauseated by this.

Dovit

Whether Christians think Judaism is idolatry or not they DO think it is wrong; that Christianity is now the only correct religion. So based on the comments that came earlier, I still ask if it would be okay for Christians to destroy Jewish antiquities? Evangelicals may very well feel that they are an affront to their jesus.

Yaakov

Dovit:

There are two broad categories of Christian doctrine: single- and dual-doctrine. The former believe that everyone must be Christian and variously believe that everyone eventually will be (universalist) or that only a few pre-chosen people actually are (election) and all sorts of things in between.

The latter (dual-doctrine) believe that Jews have a deal with God that is valid as long as they keep it. They tend to have an inordinate respect for things Jewish, and would never dream of desecrating anything remotely so.

In any case, your hypothetical fails because Christians don't have any superstitions about Jewish buildings or objects, unlike Jews who believe that tile pictures are a threat to their eternal souls.

Please pardon the sarcasm, I am not very happy with my putative co-religionists just now.

steveeboy

TALIBAN!

TALIBAN!

TALIBAN!

David

Please pardon the sarcasm, I am not very happy with my putative co-religionists just now.

Posted by: Yaakov | April 25, 2012 at 07:22 AM

Don't worry. It is highly likely that the putative co-religionists are not practicing Halachic Judaism and are possibly not even Halachically Jewish.

Jeff

A couple of years ago, I saw an exhibit of artifacts from a synagogue dated to the late Roman era. Included were large sections of its mosaic tiled floor, which incorporated names and images of Greco-Roman gods (notably Neptune, if memory serves). The curator of the exhibit was a professor of art history from YU (yes, apparently YU has an art dept., and apparently its professors are knowledgeable about art beyond calendar pictures of Jacob's ladder and Rebecca at the well). I was surprised to see these images, but he didn't seem to think there was anything exceptional about them (other than that they were lucky to have the artifacts in such well-preserved condition). When I asked him why Jews of two millenia past didn't have a problem with graphic representations of deities - and in a synagogue, yet - he shrugged and replied, "They were 'dead' gods." He didn't seem to feel it was a matter of avodah zorah.

Of course, this was long before we were fortunate enough to have the Haredim arrive on the scene to tell us we'd all been doing it wrong for 3,000 years. As I've said before, Moshe Rabbenu wouldn't have been frum enough for these people - literally.

So when I see a comment like this one:

Sorry but I don't get what the hell I wrong with all you guys? Is there anything "significant" with עבודה זרה. I think on this issue even the Hardcore zionists should agree that it should be destroyed!! I thought they claim it to be a "Jewish" state.

Posted by: זרע לבטלה | April 25, 2012 at 06:00 AM

all I can do is shake my head (and display a facial expression indicative of disgust, which of course you can't see).

The Haredim and the evangelicals form an excellent basis for an argument in favor of eugenics, which in my opinion got a bad rap.

Malka Gittel

I'm waiting for some would-be comedian to pop in with "but is it art?". Avodah zeira or not, it's once again clear that Haredim can't keep their hands off stuff that's not their property in the need to destroy everything they don't like, which is pretty well infantile. Sheesh.

Jeff

... it's once again clear that Haredim can't keep their hands off stuff that's not their property in the need to destroy everything they don't like...

... which is pretty much everything.

Yochanan Lavie

The chareidim themselves have no aesthetic sense. Look at the ugly buildings they erect, or the mess that their Orange County communities.

Jeff

The chareidim themselves have no aesthetic sense. Look at the ugly buildings they erect, or the mess that their Orange County communities.

Posted by: Yochanan Lavie | April 25, 2012 at 10:01 AM

I'm sure they'd tell you it's because they focus on "spiritual" matters, but my observation has been that when people have no no use for art or culture and no respect for their surroundings, they suffer from an impoverished interior life as well, for which they are continually trying to compensate.

A study was conducted some years back (there's always a study) in which participation in and appreciation for art was observed among various demographic groups. The two lowest in the findings, the two groups that had the least interest in art or aesthetics were urban African Americans and evangelicals - and in the case of the former, it was more a matter of upbringing and opportunity. With the evangelicals, it was cultural; it didn't have to do with getting to heaven, so it wasn't important.

Fundamentalists are all alike; they lack a sense of refinement. Their minds lack subtlety (which is the reason they have no sense of irony, and consequently, very childish senses of humor). For the sake of human survival we need to breed this maladaptive trait out of the genome, but in the meanwhile, I'm sick to death of the level of influence they've been granted. When I participate on science and humanist blogs such as Pharyngula, people are constantly writing in from Europe and Australia, incredulous at our state of affairs: "We don't have anywhere near the number of religious lunatics you seem to have in the US, and as far as the few we have are concerned, we certainly don't give them political power!" No one can get over it - and these are evangelicals they're observing. As I keep saying, I wouldn't know how to begin to explain kapparot or MBP to them. I'd be embarrassed even to try.

Oh, but I know - we need the Haredim. It's their constant study of Toyreh that protects the Jewish people (yeah, that's worked out well) and keeps the world spinning on its axis. If you believe the world spins on its axis. Which is kefira.

Yaakov

Jeff:

Just to focus on one point you made:

"We don't have anywhere near the number of religious lunatics you seem to have in the US, and as far as the few we have are concerned, we certainly don't give them political power!"

I confess that I can't understand where the people you are quoting here get the authority to "give" anyone political power. In a democracy (in the general sense, so including representative republics like ours), political power is inherent in the individual, and voting is notionally an aggregate expression of will.

I realize your paraphrase was not of a rigorous discussion of political philosophy but the attitude it reveals is uncomfortably the same as the one adopted by the religious supremacists. It seems to be a fundamental shortcoming in thinking, and not restricted to religious fundamentalists but to their opponents as well.

Jeff

What the Europeans mean is that they have the presence of mind not to vote lunatics into office, and they don't capitulate to lunatics who try to impose their beliefs upon the rest of society - e.g., forcing creationism into the public schools. They're incredulous that we do.

Yochanan Lavie

Jeff: I think you nailed it, about the fundie mindset. Religion can inspire great art, but fundamentalist religion never does.

David

Posted by: Jeff | April 25, 2012 at 10:59 AM

Well said.

GN

Jeff: I think you nailed it, about the fundie mindset. Religion can inspire great art, but fundamentalist religion never does.

Posted by: Yochanan Lavie | April 25, 2012 at 12:32 PM

Point well taken. One only has to look to the East (Orthodox Christian, Buddhist sects, Hindus, Taoists, etc), and see the beauty of their art, architecture, manuscripts, etc. No funDUMBentalist, be it Jewish, Christian, Muslim, or whatnot even has culture within itself to create beauty let alone enjoy beautiful things.

Jeff

Well, Catholicism inspired great art during the late Middle Ages and the Renaissance, and it was certainly conservative, theologically - we'd recognize them as "fundamentalists" today - but, yeah, certainly you won't see any great art coming out of the evangelical, radical Islamist or Haredi subcultures (Asher Lev notwithstanding).

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