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April 15, 2012


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Not to speak for Shmarya but I think his point was rhetorical. Since Lior clearly believes in the historicity of the Torah's version of events, it is very reasonable to raise it as a premise.


This is the exact same logic used by the ancient Egyptians to persecute and enslave the ancient Hebrews

Shmarya- that's assuming a truth to the historicity of Israelites being slaves in Egypt thousands of years ago. Although there are references to a people called the "'apiru" on Egyptian artifacts, this is circumstantial at best (as "'apiru" potentially referred to any minority group at the time) - and almost certainly no historical truth to an exodus of 600,000 men (not including women and children) across a parted Sea of Reeds.


"Insane" is a legal term, not a medical one.

Lo K'darkah

This is outrageous... Even overlooking the ad homina and factual distortions (u'mi she'meivin she'yavin tov) in the attack on Yaakov's well articulated opinion, any defence of Lior's (publicly presented) ethical position is impossible to tolerate in silence. I would probably have respect for a freedom of speech argument about Lior, but his content? No way. Because the answer to Reb Mendel is that a Jew in the Land of Israel ideally embodies one who is kind to the stranger and the refugee. And this mitzvah has been sustained not by the power of the chareidim or of the chardal - under whom it is unlikely the non-Jewish toshavim would even be allowed to vote - but by the secular State of Israel, which strives, in theory at least, to accord equality to all of it's citizens regardless of religious affiliation.
But, of course, if the man has been misrepresented in the media, he should be very upset about it. But i haven't heard him complain. And why
are you defending his wrongly stated position?


Yaakov - Rabbi Kahane used to say that the ones who criticised him the most were always the ones who were afraid to debate him.

Bassy the Haredi Slayer

yes, south Tel Aviv was a lovely area with Sephardic population, now it look like East LA or Bedford-Stuyvesant.

Rav Lior is a hero in y book for standing up to Tropper the shtuper and Eisenstein by converting the Houston girl.

Yaakov is probably a BT who does not know much about Judaism and Orthodoxy, he actually thought that Waiting For Moshiach is a real person.

Reb Mendel

I just don't underestand this argument. If you a re secular then Israel was made to be a homeland for Jews, and not a second country for Kenyans or the Zulu. If you are Jewish and believe in Torah then Eretz Yisroel was promised to us Yidden, period. Not to Kenyans or to Zulu or even to the Poles. Either way it is ours not theirs. And that is what this Rav is saying.



I don't have to "debate" him. I reject the very basis for his argument. It's not a matter of fine points, he is fundamentally, factually incorrect.

His own words, and the words of his followers condemn him. And, the "American Jew" claptrap makes your position clear, so, we have no common ground for discussion. I could as easily say, "the Israeli Jew is blinded by ideological nonsense". It would be just as valid.

Let's just drop it, there's nothing to talk about. You can have the last word if you'd like.


Again, you're latching on to Rav Lior and making assumptions about him and me as well without even knowing anything about him. Have you spoken with him to clarify the issues that you mentioned? Have you engaged in debate with him? Have you had any correspondence with him to challenge his opinions? Have you???
I guess not, so your assumptions are coming from what you read in the press and other indirect channels which try really hard to paint Rav Lior a certain way.

The southern Tel-Aviv crisis is only proving that Rav Lior is correct in his claims about the status of a non-Jew in Israel, this is not racism this is the reality of trying to maintain a Jewish majority in the land.

The American Jew will never really able to grasp the reality of life of the Jew who lives in Israel and even the more so of Jews living in Kiryat Arba or Chevron. Your problem is that what you represent as open mindeness actually expressed ignorance of the issues at stake because the fact is that Rav Lior is extremely well recieved in many many circles in Israeli society despite how the press potrays him.


(Malformed tag, bleh.)



I have read the first chapter of Trat haMelech. It is sufficient to understand it, since it is the yesod for the rest, and it works hard to make the point that lo tirtzach applies only to Jews. I refuse to accept this anachronistic insanity as binding halacha. Any sane person can see it is madness, and so, I labeled this rodef of the Jewish people, "insane".

Just because he is insane in a way that you like, in a way that supports your agenda, it doesn't mean he isn't a dangerous and bent man. He incites murder. He convinces Jews they are supermen. He teaches them the ways of their oppressors and claims divine mandate for it.

So, if there are problems in Tel Aviv, it doesn't change this. You are confusing the accidental coincidence of your opinions with Lior's, and you make an ally from a monster. That you can't see this is sad.

I am not name-calling, I am calling out a genuine danger to the Jews. If this man is seen as a leader, we are in danger.


Basically, it seems that the illegal aliens have doen worse to South Tel Aviv than what we are afraid the haredim will do to Israel.

But it doesn't matter. If these illegal aliens were haredim destroying Tel aviv with their rape and murder and feces, we'd be all for throwing them out. But these people who are raping and murdering South Tel Aviv are black. Therefore, we must overlook their deeds, and focus on their race, and allow them to stay.

Where is Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson when we need them?


I agree



If the ancient Egyptians had kicked us out to starve in the desert, we would have complained.

If they had sent us back to famine and war, we would have complained.

But, heck, the Torah you learn you learn from YU, and for some reason, the Schechters and Willigs of this world don't appear to know much in the way of history or meaning or truth.


Ahem. If the Ancient Egyptians had kicked the Israelites out, I don't think we'd have complained. They enslaved them.

Get your analogies straight, eh, Shmarya?


Rav Lior is not a racist because he accepts converts to Judaism. A real racist would not accept a convert, like the Nazis for example.

Israel has a right to defend itself, I know that this may sound a little crazy but Israel has a right to remove a demographic threat to its existence, that's why Arabs can never be a majority in the state because they can clearly vote out the Jewish state in a democratic way and that's why Israel refuses to allow the 1948 refugees return for the same reason.

Yaakov - your generalizations are only showing that you don't really know enough about the issues and that's why your sinking to insults and such, please learn the issues, read Torat Hamelech and perhaps you'll gain a more broader and open minded perspective on the issues that Rav Lior is speaking about.

Lo K'darkah

Ok Yaakov, I see your point. Perhaps straw man is the wrong term, but the Tel Aviv question is certainly a spurious irrelevancy to any defence of his ungodly world view.


Lo K'darkah:

It's not a straw man. They actually aren't motivated by protection of Lior. They are motivated by their concern over the Tel Aviv problem and they seek every ally, and interpret every statement in light of it. They don't care about Lior, per se, just as you correctly point out that Lior doesn't care about Tel Aviv.

This is what is meant when we say, "politics makes strange bedfellows". Each side here "agrees" for its own reasons and in the end, they will also eat each other, but the "defense" of Lior is actually a defense of their own position because it looks like his.

Lo K'darkah

I wish some people here would grow a brain. Of course he's a fricking racist and so are his followers. Anyone whose been following Lior's career knows it; and if you're in any doubt have a look at the slogan he is standing in front of in the pic: Judah for the Jews!
Ah-pee-chorus is absolutely correct. The hysterical and exaggerated comments about South Tel Aviv (an area I know well) are a straw argument. Lior is a fascist in a black hat.



To clarify, I don't think you justified him at all and agree with the deconstruction.



I understood your position. My point was that I won't even parse what he says as it stands. You gave him a chance at rational analysis (while concluding that he couldn't be really talking about something reasonable). I won't give him that because he's show himself to be irrational and a rodef.

So, I don't think you agree, or support him in any way. I just think you are playing into the hands of the parsers, something I reject.


This is even more than a statement to be taken at face value. It's a positioning statement meant to backup future statements or actions. No matter if you cite Hitler or John Brown, if you get a charismatic leader that convinces his followers to the wrong things for what they believe are the right reasons, bad things always follow.

History shows how fast fringe groups can become armies that always end up causing mayhem far beyond what their original stated purpose may be.

(Linking AH and JB in no way reflects any linkage to their actual motivations or philosophies)



You are rationalizing his statements


i'm afraid you totally missed my point. i consider lior to be a vile deluded racist jerk. far from rationalizing his comments, i am REMOVING any attempts at rationalizing his comments . casinojack tried to connect and rationalize his statement via the crime they supposedly cause. i showed how such an attempt is dishonest because even lior himself doesnt use it as justification for his racism.
i think a re-read will bring more clarity.



You are rationalizing his statements. They do not stand alone, they stand in the corpus of his terrible work. There is no reason to rationalize them, or consider whether they could be reasonable: they came from the mind and mouth of a scoundrel.


casinojacks comments are irrelevant to liors statement. there may indeed be a really bad crime situation in south TA. but thats not what lior is talking about.

The entry of immigrants from African states is a sophisticated move to get terrorists into Israel

his concern is that the refugees are part of a plan to bring in terrorists. and his opposition isnt based on the crime they may bring. he speaks of a divine right to the land which would exclude any non-jews, and refers later to arabs, which wouldnt even include any of the african refugees.

This is our home and an Arab who wants to express his nationalism has many countries in which to do so.

had lior stated that legitimate refugees should be welcomed but that more must be done to ensure they dont cause a drop in the quality of life for israelis he might have had a point for discussion, and casino's comments might have been appropriate. but thats just not the case.



As a Jew who cares about Torah, I reject the Jewish supremacy preached by Lior and embodied in Torat ha'Melech. It is not "delicare", it is simply halacha bent to racist claptrap.

Lior is implicated in a plot to kill hundreds of civilians by the perpetrators who were, thank God, stopped before they could do it. He is a monomaniacal anti-Torah personality who fits with the insanity in the settlements.


South tel aviv has been inhabited by illegals for over 20 years.
The problem gets worse and worse. Rape,robberies etc.

rav Liors statement was not rascist.

Anyone who calls him mentally I'll needs to look long and hard in the mirror.

Yoel Mechanic

guys, do your own google search to find more:


we should thank casinojack for alerting us to this situation. I'm glad to see the context of what is going on.


CasinoJack, prepare to be deluged with negative (and anatomically personal) comments from the usual suspects, some of whom are decidedly more long-winded than others. Roll Tide.


it's not only true it's actually very scary. There's over 50,000 illegal aliens cramped in Southern Tel-Aviv. They sleep in stairwells, yards and any other open space they can find. Jewish residents complain daily about the illegals doing their needs on their property, urinating in front of women, mugging, raping...and even between themselves the crime rate is outrageous. They have created a country within a country and if this continues at the rate it's going we're in big trouble.


But is this true about South Tel Aviv? Deremes will volley insults at me, as he did when I told him I don't speak Hebrew, but I haven't been to Israel. Is this true?


You have become a knee jerk hater and you have lost all credability. R. Lior's statemetn isnt racist at all. You have a right to take issue with him on policy grounds and politics but not to simply mimick Al Sharpton and his ilk. All civilized countries have immigration laws. Israel's (and R Lior's ) isnt based on race at all but security concerns.

Im sorry to say that all the good you have done over the years is being lost with over the top statements. Your dislike of the frum has become pathological.


Yaakov, it's clear from your comment that you have never read a single page from Torat Hamelech, the book does not call for killing of babies al pi halacha, that's a twisted lie stemming from ingnorance of a very delicate topic of Israeli soldiers in sensitive and unavoidable war situations involving citizens mixed with the enemy and every soldier who's been in combat understands very well what the book is about.

Rav Lior is not a twisted and evil man as you describe. Not every Rabbi with an opinion in favor of the Jewish people is twisted and evil. He does not have to apologize for standing up for the nebech Jewish residents of southern Tel-Aviv. You latch on to Rav Lior as the source of the problem instead of relating to the real problem which isn't him - it's them. I invite you to come to Israel and spend a day in south Tel-Aviv and you will understand very well what Rav Lior is talking about.



"Rav Lior" is a twisted and evil man. He's Torah turned inside out. He's a supremacist lunatic. No matter what you would like to find that is good about what he said, it comes from a man that approved of a book that permits the killing of babies, al pi halacha.

You are the one confused about context. Holding Lior accountable, denying his dangerous claptrap, is not denying other problems that might be real. It's not the dilemma that you make it, and you don't want this man on your side.


Fools. Have any of you been to south Tel-Aviv lately? I'm assuming that you haven't because the remaining Jewish residents in that area who are mainly senior citizens who cannot afford to leave and have nowhere to go are getting harassed and literally abused by the thousands of illegals who are flooding the neighborhod and have turned it into a hell on earth for the remaining Jews there. But of course everyone is obsessed with Rav Lior and his comments and no one gives a crap about the suffering Jewish residents of southern Tel-Aviv. These aren't refugees and no one in Israel has classified them as such, they are classified as illegal aliens. The crime in Tel-Aviv has tripled and is growing day by day. Rav Lior is speaking for the invisible Jewish residents who no one could care less about.


Taken out of the context of who said this it might lack racist overtones. But, it has a context, and the sum of Lior's commentary makes it clear that he is a racist, and he's been implicated in plots intended to kill hundreds. He called Baruch Goldstein "as holy as the Holocaust saints", and wrote an haskama for Torat ha'Melech.

The man is mentally ill. He's bent, and he's dangerous—and he is unequivocally racist. In that context, this statement is not neutral.


Perhaps you can edify for me what "all sorts of these types of pronouncements " means. Specifically.

Robert Wisler

I have to agree with Moshe on this one.... The guy himself might be a pig, but this particular quip wasn't.


Sorry, object as you might to this statement, it is not racist. Does not mean that its author is not.

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