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April 15, 2012

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Shmarya

Um, note the word: "victims."

Secular Jews were more likely to leave when they still could, more likely to be able to pass as non-Jews, and more likely to be hidden by their non-Jewish friends.

Past that, the actual reality is that 2/3 of Warsaw's Jews were secular. What Snyder is doing is counting the secular children of hasidim – i.e., ex-haredim – as "Orthodox."

Yaakov A Sternberg

Regarding:
"This is complete hogwash. At the dawn of WW2, 2/3 of Warsaw's Jews were secular. The number of secular Jews was even higher in Paris, Amsterdam and Denmark. And most of Budapest's Jews were secular, as well..."

In an essay - "Holocaust: The Ignored Reality", Tim Snyder (professor at Yale) writes:
"The largest group of Holocaust victims—religiously Orthodox and Yiddish-speaking Jews
of Poland..."

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2009/jul/16/holocaust-the-ignored-reality/

http://www.hajrtp.org/PDFs/Summer_Reading_2015.pdf - starts on page 4, quote is from page 5.

God is not amused

Jacsibacsi you nailed it on the head, "They didn't have a homeland to go to." Whenever Jews were persecuted, THEY HAD NO WHERE TO GO TO, other than another gentile country.
My grandfather originally from Germany. Went to Budapest 1927/8?? 12/4? years later he is running for his life again. And no he was not religious. Things would have been different if, Israel was there to run to. Instead they ran to the woods and became partisans and scavengers. Too bad they didn't take out Soros.
Haredi spin is just that. Spin.

Good read. I am learning so much. Nobody wanted to talk about, in my family.

spacedout BT

If you look at community memorial books (sefer kedoshim) you will see the different kinds of Jews in each town: Bundists, Socialists, Zionist Revisionist, regular Zionists, Mizrachi, Aguda, etc. All suffered together. I protest Meir Wikler's attempt to "Art Scroll" the holocaust by erasing the other end of the community spectrum from the list of martyrs.

Jeff

From the latest issue of Kashrus Magazine:

There is no “alternative” to keeping kosher, but a young person at college who’s hungry and who is not near his parents, rabbi, or other observant person, may have his mind play tricks on him, and that is why many students may gravitate to vegan.

You people don't operate in anything even remotely resembling reality.

Shmarya

Posted by: Rabbi Yosef Wikler | April 19, 2012 at 07:18 AM

You're not a historian and neither is brother, and neither of you have even the slightest idea of what you're talking about.

And on top of that, your brother is dishonest.

Now do try to process.

After the war, many survivors from haredi homes were NO LONGER ORTHODOX.

Faith did not grow during and immediately after the Holocaust. It (rightly) weakened.

I suggest you stick to the ecclesiastical matters you know. And I suggest your brother stop his games and his lies.

Rabbi Yosef Wikler

Although you have a great photo of my brother, Dr. Meir Wikler, you inaccurately call him "Rabbi Wikler". Alas, although he gives a weekly shiur, has learned through shas a number of times and is a full-fledged Bostoner chassid - I hope that qualifies him to be called chareidi, at least he is to me - he does not carry the title "Rabbi" that you have endowed him with as a caption to his picture.
As to the debate itself, I can add little except to say that, according to Mr. Rosenberg's figures that there were about a third chareidi-Orthodox before the war, my brother's complaint about Yad Vashem - it was about that and not about the war and chareidim that this whole thing was about - is actually correct, as 1 recording out of 18 still seems rather unbalanced. Number-wise, it should be 6, not 1 (and that one is there as a result of my brother's first plea to them). By the way, he did not just write about the matter; he approached Yad Vashem first, numerous times.
As to chareidi versus Orthodox, I doubt if anyone has figured it out. There are chareidim in Israel who have studied in university and the vast number of non-chassidic chareidim in the U.S. may well have attended university,as both I and my brother have.
In any event, it was a nice picture that you posted.
Rabbi Yosef Wikler
Editor, KASHRUS Magazine
Host, "Kashrus On The Air"

Shmarya

Posted by: Shaya Getzl | April 19, 2012 at 03:03 AM

Your numbers are off. You downplay the number of non-Orthodox Jews – the Bundists, etc.

2/3 of Warsaw's Jews before WW2 were NOT Orthodox, for example.

Shaya Getzl

Wow, many of the posts bring to memory ruspatriot, stormfront and der sturmer. Alas, jedem das seine.
That said, and admitting that terminology of the article in question was severely messed up, real facts bear repeating.
In old Europe, Jews (by birth) were either
1. Orthodox (Hasidic, Lithuanian, Yekke or Sephardic)
2. near-Orthodox (some of the "enlightened", some Zionists, most Neolog, much of the upper and even upper-middle class)
3. frei (most professionals - doctors, lawyers et al)
4. geshmadene - converts to christianity

During the interbellum, Poland - with its largest Jewish population in Europe - had about 80% of its jews "orthodox". Galitsia, Polessye, Volhyn and Podol were similarly heavily unassimilated, with only a relatively small percentage of its jews "enlightened" beyond religion. As a rule of thumb, the more affluent were likelier to assimilate. Hungary, Romania and Slovakia, as well as Bukovina and Bessarabia, were all heavily, though to a lesser extent, "orthodox" or at least "neolog".
This would state that religious were at least prominent, if not dominant, in eastern europian jewry on the eve of 1939.
But once you factor in the terrible adverse selection upon them, it's a surprise that they weren't comprising 80% of the victims. Dirt poor, immobile, with large families, often sticking to the letter of halacha even at cost of risking their lives, easily identifiable, often with limited knowledge of host nation's language, without secular education or means to emigrate, unwanted by most refuges, they were sitting ducks - and all this before National Socialists declared the Ostjude to be their primal Umgluck.
So the numbers are absolutely not off-base.

Yaakov

Jeff:

You could say, "I don't want them to suffer but I don't want to suffer them either".

And, for the record, I like you in spite of your insufferableness.

Jeff

This is an essential difference between us. I genuinely dislike human beings. I don't want them to suffer, but I don't like them. I never have.

Yaakov

Jeff:

You wrote:

Frankly, I see their errors as nullifying - or more precisely, invalidating - humanity in general.

That's where the self defense aspect comes in. You see that I am an implacable opponent of such ideas precisely on the basis of their destructive power. But, I believe that derech eretz demands that I respect their humanity at each step, just as I don't revel in the downfall of my enemies. As Kant lays it out in Fundamental Principles of the Metaphysic of Morals:

"Act in such a way that you treat humanity, whether in your own person or in the person of any other, always at the same time as an end and never merely as a means to an end."

He derives this in pursuit of a rational deontological ethics. I think it is quite beautiful.

Jeff

I sometimes have an impulse to defend you when you are smeared but I have the idea that would be interfering with your hobby.

Heh!

but I don't have to think if their errors as nullifying their humanity.

Frankly, I see their errors as nullifying - or more precisely, invalidating - humanity in general.

Yaakov

Jeff:

Their intolerance is no excuse for me to be intolerant, save in self defense.

I know that I make mistakes, and my worldview blinds me to some things, so, I can approach a person not as their ideology but as a fellow human. When I believe they are mistaken, I can tell them so and not imagine it is fundamental to them but instead something they hold now and may not in the future. When their ideology literally threatens my safety or pursuit of happiness, I can defend myself, but I don't have to think if their errors as nullifying their humanity.

I understand your feelings but I can't justify them for myself. I am not judging you, but defending people when they are attacked personally seems right to me. I sometimes have an impulse to defend you when you are smeared but I have the idea that would be interfering with your hobby.

I have a great deal of respect for your passion and courage in pursuing what you think is right, I hope you know that and don't think I am being condescending. You very well could be right to be so acerbic with people who are doing damage to others as apologists, it could be my weakness. Still, it's how I am.

Jeff

You know what, Yaakov? He is an idiot. You can rationalize it any way you like - it's a matter of aptitude, disparate worldviews, enculturation and early childhood experience... . I'm the one who keeps saying there's a strong neurological foundation. There are a number of complimentary issues going on with these people. It's easier simply to call them idiots, and it's appropriate, because in one way or another, they're cognitively impaired.

Faith - especially fundamentalist faith - is the most selfish thing in the world. A person of faith is someone who says, "What happens to others is of little, if any, consequence. I'll look the other way on famine, child abuse, female genital mutilation, the Holocaust - as long as I get the ontological security blanket, as long as I get communal support in this life and eternal bliss in the next - that is all that matters. Everyone else can literally and figuratively go to hell." This is indicative of intellectual and moral impairment.

You're far too tolerant of them; I told you this once before. They'd happily see you in hell. You want to split hairs trying to sort out the different flavors of impairment? Fine; I can't be bothered.

Jeff

Fine. Just two different ways of saying he doesn't know what he's talking about.

Yaakov

Jeff:

This is all argumentum ad hominem. An idiot is a person with a low IQ, he isn't that. You might think he is deluded, and using his intelligence to argue an a priori conclusion, but he is not an idiot, no matter how much you disagree with him.

Similarly, even if he was rabidly pious as a compensation for his new arrival to religiosity, either his argument holds up—or it doesn't. If you are just making commentary on why he is prone to arguing apologetics, I am not sure that's so clear. It certainly sounds like, "how can you take him seriously, he's a ba'al tesuvah?"

This is the complement of "how can you take him seriously, he's an apikorus?" Both are sophistry and generate heat without light.

Jeff

I don't believe he is an idiot at all. I do believe he is an ideologue and an apologist

To me, the former is shorthand for the latter, and in any case, his remarks earn him "idiot" status.

Why does it matter if he is a ba'al teshuvah?

They're often more pious than the FFB's. You know this, Yaakov. It works that way in every religion. The converts are always the most fervent and often the ones causing the greatest amount of trouble and inconvenience for everyone else.

Yaakov

He has degrees from an accredited program, and he's worked as a professor in that program as well. Whatever value degrees in social work have, he's certainly squarely in that profession.

If he is an idiot, he is a savant. I don't believe he is an idiot at all. I do believe he is an ideologue and an apologist, but what's the value in running him down personally? Why does it matter if he is a ba'al teshuvah? His argument is good or it isn't.

Jeff

He's a well known idiot who tries so hard to fit in with the frum culture (he's a b't)

Yeah, that's about what I figured.

Shabbos guest

Psychotherapist?!
He's a well known idiot who tries so hard to fit in with the frum culture (he's a b't), and the whole family is just so 'one off'.
Never take these BT Novaminsker chassidim fakers seriously.

Jeff

What would a Haredi-run Holocaust memorial look like? I mean, how would they actually show the Reform Jews causing it?

Chaim yankel

Beth Frank-Backman

Your personal story is heart rending and I can only express my sympathy and that you continue to find the courage to heal. I am in agreement with your concern about how a Chareidi run Holocaust exhibit would look like. It would likely narrated through a very Chareidi-centric perspective, giving short shrift to those not deemd worthy of Chareidi adulation. They would almost certainly sugar coat and airbrush evrey Charedi personality, in keeping with their misguided view of Rabbinic infallibility. That's precisely why Yad Vashem needs to continue to be the curator of these exhibits to keep a balanced perspective. Notwithstanding that, I still don't buy the responses of Yad vashem and other Holocaust Meuseums, where they argue that in fact theyve given the religious narritive a full exposition.

Yaakov

MoisheCohen:

Orthodoxy and science are fundamentally incompatible because it is necessarily the case that if the orthodoxy demands something and the science says otherwise, orthodoxy will win.

This means that in cases where good science says "action X will lead to result Y", where Y is something generally considered harmful to the patient, but demanded by doctrine, the rhetoric will hold that either Y is not harmful, or will not happen. A third possibility is resorting to bad science in a direct attack on the good science. (for a practical demonstration of this effect, see the metzitzah debate)

This doesn't mean that what is called "good science" by scientists is always good science. In fact, scientists suffer from this same problem of orthodoxy. (see the case of the Landauer Effect for a demonstration in the scientific domain).

In the area of mental health, this problem is amplified, because mental health is inextricably linked to social norms. In religious orthodoxy, social norms are intimately linked to religious doctrine. Therefore, an orthodox religious therapist will inevitably have the problem of necessarily placing doctrine over science, and, in this case, having "authorities" that do not respect science.

Teddy

Traditional religious Jew equals being religious, the traditional way, which is LESS religious than haredim in my book, at least, the traditional one does not show it that much.
Traditional religious Jews, are Jews who when asked to write their religion down only doubt between Jewish and their current denomination, a traditional religious Jew, is one, who if seriously Liberal (or Karaite) thinking souls in the kehille threaten to split off from the small and old "orthodox" kehille, thinks that keeping the Jews together by changing the denomination of the entire kehille to a more Progressive one, has no drawbacks.

Jeff

Religious beliefs should not affect job performance.

You're right - they shouldn't.

Someone has "blinkers" on. I don't think it's me.

MoishieCohen

Some do, actually, go to college/university, and remain Haredi.

The tragedy of that was really rather my point.

Posted by: Jeff | April 17, 2012 at 05:07 AM

And, I'm sure, offer a perfectly capable and professional service.

There is no reason to think otherwise.

Religious beliefs should not affect job performance.

Jeff

Some do, actually, go to college/university, and remain Haredi.

The tragedy of that was really rather my point.

MoishieCohen

What a DUMB statement to make as there are plenty of well respected individuals in the phsycology field that are Haredim.

Heh! Yes, I'm sure.

"Doctor, I hate my parents."

"Vos? Chos v'sholem you should say such a thing! It's your yetzer hara talking! You need to say tehillim immediately! B'ezrat Hashem you'll have a reufuah shlemah and not go to gehinnom for your reshais!"

Yeah, I'm sure there's an academic paper in there somewhere.


Posted by: Jeff | April 15, 2012 at 12:12 PM


The gross naivete and condenscension you display is childish, pathetic and misinformed.

I don't know if there are 'plenty
of well respected individuals in the phsycology field that are Haredim' (such a claim seems hard to corroborate with clinical evidence) - however it is very childish to imagine someone cannot be both frum and suitably qualified.

Not all Haredim stay in Yeshiva their whole lives.

Some do, actually, go to college/university, and remain Haredi.

You really should take off the blinkers.

>

Rocky

I found the answer to my 2:40 pm post. The rabbi who gave precedence to his own books over rescuing a few other Jews was Rabbi Joseph Issac Schneerson. "If you read Rigg's book Rescued From The Reich (and the footnotes of Rigg's book) you'll see that when Rabbi Joseph Isaac Schneersohn asked for those books to be brought out of Nazi-controlled Europe, he paired the request with requests to save his furniture and his silver. You'll also see he did not ask the US Government to save any Jews." from a Feb 22 2012 failedmessiah.com post

Jeff

Beth, one is at a loss for words. I just wanted to say that I'm deeply sorry.

Edward Levin

Yes, Rabbi Weissmandel was duped - just as all the victims were duped by the unprecedented nature of the Nazis' actions. But he took action - heading one of the most active rescue attempts. Denigrating the man and his efforts is, simply put, obscene. Indeed, my teacher, Prof. Yehuda Bauer (who for many years was a member of a Hashomer Hatzair kibbutz!), said that Rabbi Weissmandel's book was the most important book to emerge from the Holocaust.

Yaakov

Beth Frank-Backman:

I have been thinking about this and have concluded that charedism is not about faith in the Creator but faith in the Rabbis. In that way, it is very different from what you describe.

Your experiential connection to what you call "God" is precisely the core of human-divine interaction. The Rabbis, in becoming self-appointed proxies, have destroyed that connection among the charedim and replaced it with something steeped in obscurantist fear-mongering. The lens through which God is perceived in the charedi world is designed to put the focus on the Rabbis, and even the most intimate interaction of a Jew with the divine is strictly regulated because we are seen as incapable of communicating "properly".

It is terrible to hear about your experience. I have never had to deal with something so terrible, and have rarely been in fear for my life. I hope that something good came of that awful experience, and that it isn't something that still hurts badly.

Abracadabra

Beth Frank-Backman - Thank you for writing and sharing. I am so sorry for what you went through. Your potrayal of the depth of emotional, psychological, spiritual, and religious experience in being the victim of violence and having to make impossible choices, with all the questions and repercusions they leave you with for life, was incredibly moving and illustrative of what is likely only a fraction of what most Jews experienced in the Holocaust. And your point is an excellent one.

Litvish

Posted by: Beth Frank-Backman

You are very eloquent.

Well put.

Beth Frank-Backman

Chaim Yankel,

Yes, we ned to hear these stories, but the Yad VaShem rebuttal says that they do in fact tell such stories.

But how is telling such a story "orthodox"? Risking life to light a menorah, was something done by all sorts of people. That wouldn't be an exclusively haredi or orthodox story and it would distort the Holocaust to portray it as such.

If your real interest is to tell the story of the Haredim and only the Haredim, then you have to tell the whole story, not just the pretty stories but also the really tough painful in your gut choices. Otherwise one would distort the Holocaust, spirtually as well as historically.

What I object to in Wikler's essay is that the menorah heroic genre of story seems to be all he wants to hear. Making them into the main thing, really misses the nature of the evil in the camps. In fact, I think focusing on things like Menorahs and laying tefillin is really a way of avoiding the challenges of the Holocaust. it is like singing daiyenu to drown out the Akeida or celebrating Purim when one is sitting in the belly of the whale with no known way out.

Many haredim don't tell their stories because there is no honor in the Haredi community for the person who had to violate kashrut to stay alive, or serve as a prostitute to stay alive or other disgusting (to the person) choices. Adding to the horror s/he felt at the time for the choices s/he had to make is the shame s/he expects to be piled on her for her/his "sin".

One of the worst parts of evil is that it deliberately puts people into situations where there are NO choices without sin or gevious loss. The mere fact one has the opportunity to light a menorah, albeit at risk to life and limb, indicates the possibility of at least one acceptable choice. That was a lot better than many concentration camp survivors often got. To really understand the faith journey of a survivor, I think you need to explore the stories where there were NO good choices.

Several years ago I had a small personal window into the hell of the holocaust where I played dead during a murder attempt (to prevent another attempt) and for my pains was raped, on Rosh haShannah no less. Towards the end of the attack I was so certain that I wouldn't get out alive I began saying the shma.

I didn't spend years thinking what a sign of hope that I can remember God in the darkest moment. It is fairly easy to see why I remembered the Shma. I'm a religious Jew. That's what religious Jews do.

The real challenge was how to live with the choices I made that night and the reality of what I witnessed. How do I make emotional and spiritual sense of Rosh haShanna when it is also the anniversary of being attacked every year? How do I believe in my own power, when so much was taken from me against my will? How can the God who says "I set before you life and death" in Deuteronomy allow someone to take a life from another human being? Allow someone to set up a situation for another person where all choices are sins or at least a gross perversion of what is true and right and good in the world? How do I reconcile intense suffering with a deep deep sense of the presence of God I felt in the worst moments of that attack? There were no angels whisking me away. To imagine God in that moment almost feels like blasphemy, Jeremiah, Jonah and Psalm 23 not withstanding.

If my 30 minute attack raised so many potent questions, imagine what 4 years in a camp or in hiding or separated from one's parents would do?

Others have different questions but just as difficult and seemingly unanswerable. Some never get answered. Some will have answers that will be too personal for retelling. Others will get filtered into intellectual responses like my first one. But if you want to know the real story of faith, in my opinion, it lies in those questions not in lighting menorahs.

Rocky

Yaakov wrote: "If Jewish identity vanishes today it will be with the great assistance fo the charedim who are both chasing off Jews from Torah and making themselves anathema to those who cheat, defraud, and dehumanize."

Well put.

Beth Frank-Backman

Yaakov, your meaning wasn't clear to me from your original expression. Thanks for the clarification.

Yaakov

jancsibacsi:

In dehumanizing others, they, of course, throw away their own humanity as well. We see this over and over with supremacist groups, and Jewish supremacists are not immune. Ideologues who hold some set of rules above people don't care who they destroy if the rules are followed.

Yaakov

Beth Frank-Backman:

Frankly, I don't care if people have any particular title. Doctor, Rabbi, it's all irrelevant in the context of argumentation. I don't care if his degree is good or bad. I actually defended it here, posting his CV and mentioning that he comes from an accredited institution.

I do care about the abuse of authority in the charedi world. If you are "Rabbi" you are magical, if you are "doctor" your opinion trumps any secular intellectual. It's really a matter of sophistry, which is what I am against.

Academic credentials are meaningful only in light of the work of the person that has them. I know many doctors who are without merit in their own field, and many who have very narrow abilities. So, throwing titles around sets off alarms for me. It's a sign, particularly in the charedi milieu, that the opinion of the person is authoritative. There is no understanding that people's opinions are just that, opinions. Argumentum ad verecundiam is not considered a fallacy in the charedi mind.

Yaakov

Beth Frank-Backman:

The intention of the quotes was to show it was irrelevant to the discussion. I work in academia and all of my colleagues with PhD's are loathe to use "Dr." anything outside the narrow speciality of their work.

Here, his doctorate is irrelevant and so becomes a "doctorate". He could be a PhD in physics, a JD, or anything else. Why use the title? Because it confers (false) legitimacy. So I am not saying it is not "real", I am saying it is not "true".

jancsibacsi

Yaakov-If Jewish identity vanishes today it will be with the great assistance fo the charedim who are both chasing off Jews from Torah and making themselves anathema to those who cheat, defraud, and dehumanize.
To me the word dehumanize has meaning even you yes even you yaakov dont know how right you are i experienced it first hand and not just once but for over a half decade in my younger years, the key key word is dehumanize you hit the nail on its head.

Beth Frank-Backman

Yaakov,

no doubt about it being apologetics.

--- His doctorate is smoke ---

If you want to say that it is irrelevant to the op-ed, I'll agree, but I don't think putting it in quotes to imply it is a fake degree is justified. A DSW is a real degree and the YU program is very well respected. Depending on the school or track it adds an extended public health, clinic management, social work theory, or social work education/supervision component to the MSW.

chaim yankel

Beth Frank-Backman

I appreciate your honest intellectual approach to this discussion in contrast to the majority of the comments which are designed to impugn Wikler's credentials and motivations rather than the issues he raises. I completely agree with you that the challenge of faith in the face of the holocaust is by no means limited to the orthodox or the performance of orthodox rituals. By the same token, the story of the orthodox jew in Auschwitz who risked death to light the menorah carries with it a universal message of devotion and faith that all can and should learn from. Wikler's issue, that those stories are not represented in Yad Vashem is a legitimate one which needs to be rectified.

Yaakov

Beth Frank-Backman:

I think this is just apologetics, and he is credentialed, well-known, and writes well. He's just taking up the standard.

His "doctorate" is smoke, in this case. It's implicit argument from authority.

Yaakov

Let's take this logically. The Nazis did not care about observance or non-observance. They didn't care about halachic definitions of who is a Jew. They wanted to wipe out a notional "race".

Charedi Jews now frame this as "wiping out Torah", which they claim as exclusive property. Therefore, if we don't all become charedim, they claim "Hitler wins".

But we can see that the Nazis didn't distinguish by observance, and certainly didn't ask if the victims believed in da'as Torah or some other docrtrinal point. They simply wanted to be rid of Jews as a general thing.

If Jewish identity vanishes today it will be with the great assistance fo the charedim who are both chasing off Jews from Torah and making themselves anathema to those who cheat, defraud, and dehumanize.

Beth Frank-Backman

this guys conflation --> Wikler's conflation

Beth Frank-Backman

Looking at articles that show up in google scholar, his specialty is two fold (a) cultural issues regarding Orthodox clients (b) peer review of psychotherapists. He also appears to focus on family therapy i.e. interpersonal problems. (based on his advertised practice areas and his Aish column).

He's a bit out of his area if he's venturing into the field of trauma, i.e. the Holocaust. This has nothing to do with him being Haredi. It is just that a lot of people think that their work with families qualifies them to do good work with crime victims and survivors of terrorist attacks and it doesn't. Family counselling and trauma counselling are about as related as tax law and criminal law or protology and brain surgery.


Brushing him off because he is haredi isn't really fair. I do know a Haredi guy who is very good with trauma: war, crime, abuse, etc. He specializes in PTSD and he and I have talked several times at the Shabbat table or at Seudah Slishit about the challenges helping people deal with trauma within the limits of the Haredi world. But I also think he would be more concerned about the person's mental health than he would about keeping them in the fold even though obviously to him the best resolution would be to have both mental health and continued life in the community.

Speaking more from a psychology point of view this guys conflation of Haredi/formal ritual with spiritual heroism does not show him off as a social worker or therapist in the best possible light.

Flatbusher

Isa: Irnoic that the Agudah's Rabbonim would call anyone going out of Kolell getting these degrees (all treyf esp. in the psych area esp. fro a man, who has to watch hirhur more than a woman according to the Zohar) a Shaygetz.... Guess that's why he has to suck up.

Jeff

Thus his famous 614th commandment: "Thou shalt not hand Hitler posthumous victories. To despair of the God of Israel is to continue Hitler’s work for him."

I remember that, although I don't remember it being Fackenheim who said it - but you may be right.

In any case, I've never agreed with it. I can't see any point in maintaining an allegiance to a belief system one finds untenable merely so the Nazis don't somehow "win".

Yaakov

Isa:

Dr. Meir Wikler earned his masters and doctoral degrees from the Wurzweiler School of Social Work and has served as staff therapist and consultant for the Jewish Board of Family and Children's Services in Brooklyn, NY. A former professor at Wurzweiler, he is now in full time practice of psychotherapy and family counseling specializing in the treatment of Orthodox adults and children.

In addition, Dr. Wikler serves on the Board of Govoners of the association of Orthodox Jewish Scientists, the Board of the YittiLiebel Help-Line and he is a National Officer of the Agudath Israel of America. He has authored and published 8 books and over 70 articles in various clinical journals, as well as lay periodicals and prestigious publications including The New York Times, The Jerusalem Post, The Jewish Observer and Mishpacha Magazine. He is listed in Who's Who in World Jewry.

The Wurzweiler School of Social Work is at YU, and it is accredited.

Litvish

BSD ( Board Certified Diplomate in Social Work)is not a degree, as I wrote above. It means that he passed certain examinations to demonstrate competence in his field.

Jeff

This is a riot, Jeff, "Fundamentalists have absolutely no sense of irony." I want to see this on every bumper. Honestly, I appreciate your wit knocking around inside your posts. Copyright this one. It's great.

Posted by: dh | April 15, 2012 at 04:30 PM

Thanks, but it's just an observation. I don't think I'm the first to say it. ;)

Litvish

Posted by: Isa

He advertises one degree: DSW ( Doctorate in Social Work). The other one, BSD ( Board Certified Diplomate in Social Work) indicates, I believe, that he is board certified in social work. Analogous to a physician claiming to be board certified in, say, psychiatry.

Obviously, he had to have earlier degrees before he took the doctorate but he doesn't list those on his site.

We are told that he is a BT so he may have attended college before he drank the kool aid. However, there are many frumiks who attend college. He also might have gotten a degree on-line. I just don't know the details.

Jeff

@JEFF You are right I got a big problem with you, as you are not just stating your opinion you make ridiculious statements as well.

And your the one that keeps on commenting after I post so I guess so who again needs the last word?? You pathetic piece of scum!

Posted by: chuck | April 15, 2012 at 03:26 PM

If you really thought I was wrong, you wouldn't bother with me. I've hit too close to home.

Jeff

herdiem and any fundamentalist have a different meaning to the word fact

most people it means something that actually exists; reality; truth

to herdein anything that they can say that backs up their believes and it dies not really have to exist or be true

Yep, that's about it.

Isa

"Dr. Meir Wikler"

Me thinks his degrees are suspect

stinky would be the word

Not that they are totally made up

but I would like to see where he got his three degrees.

I do not have the time or money to do this

Beth Frank-Backman

Chaim Yankel said: --- There is a compelling narrative to be told about how they dealt with their faith in the face of the holocaust ---

Not only is does this story not detract from the story of Eli Weisel, it IS the story of Eli Weisel. Eli Wiessel would definitely have been classed as a "traditional Jew", even a haredi Jew, before the Holocaust. I recommend you reread the first few chapters of his book Night. In fact most of the major post-holocaust non-haredi theologians and social activists had religious backgrounds: Eli Weissel, Martin Buber. Abraham Joshua Heschel, Leo Strauss, Emil Fackenheim, among others.

I agree it would be a compelling story, but it would be impossible to tell if you restricted that story to those whose lives began and ended wearing black hats and wigs. If you only told the story of traditional people who believed in a Haredi way both before and after the Holocaust you wouldn't be telling how people deal with their faith. You'd simply be telling the story of one possible theological response to the Holocaust.

Emil Fackenheim's grandfather was the town rabbi. Fackenhiem continued his grandfather's Jewish commitment but was ordained as a Liberal Rabbi in Berlin. For Winkler to get to his 50-70% he'd have to include religious and secular-observant Jews. I suspect that would include Fackenheim (European "Liberal" Judaism is closer to US conservative or left-wing MO).

Almost immediately after he was interred for three months in a concentration camp. He somehow managed to be released and fled first to Scotland and then to Canada where he spent most of the remainder of his life working as a professor. Don't let his liberal ordination lull you into believing he was some sort of faithless am-ha-aretz without a religious story.

Despite all he lived through His emotional investment in his faith was so great that for at least one of his students, Victor Shepherd, the experience of hearing him talk honestly about his own belief in G-d took him beyond words and thoughts to an awareness of God's presence:

--- “Shepherd, enough about philosophy.  Let’s talk about GOD.” (Never having spoken with him before, I had no idea how he had learned of my interest in theology.) .... “Shepherd,” Fackenheim continued after another noxious exhalation, “modernity thinks God to be vague, abstract, ethereal, ‘iffy’. God, however, is concrete, solid, dense with a density beyond our imagining.  There is nothing ‘iffy’ about God; but there is a great deal that is ‘iffy’ about you and me.”  Dumbfounded at the spiritual assault (albeit benign) from a world-class philosopher, I was still reeling when he launched the next salvo. “Shepherd, in view of the horrific depredations of our century – crowned by the Shoah – there are huge question marks above humankind.  But concerning God there is no question whatever.  Never forget”, he concluded, “We do not demythologize God; God demythologizes us as God exposes the groundless myths by which humankind is enthralled.”  I staggered out of his office, the topic of my philosophy essay all but lost in the aura without, and the awe within, that have never evaporated --- http://www.victorshepherd.on.ca/Other%20Writings/emil_fackenheim.htm

This is the sort of story you hear about rebbes and g'dolim. However, this man never set himself up as a rebbe. He simply taught and lived. I never met him but he lived his latter years quietly in the apartment below one of my best friends. No crowds. No courts. No black hat. But probably more faith than most of us will ever have.

One of Fackenheim's points was that unlike other Jewish persecutions, Jews weren't asked to have another faith. They were asked to die. The kiddush haShem in this case was to refuse to die and to refuse to stop believing in Jewish hope for a better world, no matter how much life hurt. Thus his famous 614th commandment: "Thou shalt not hand Hitler posthumous victories. To despair of the God of Israel is to continue Hitler’s work for him."

So if Wikler wants to tell the religious story and highlight spiritual heroism, great! However, I didn't get the sense from his essay that he was really interested in that story. Rather he wanted to tell a pretty-up'd story of Hassidic hagiography where Judaism was reduced to a willingness to risk one's life to wear tefillin, shofar blowing and Hanukkah candle lighting.

If he had spent more than a few minutes seriously listening to the stories of many of the hatless men and women wearing their hair in full view, he might have realized that every single survivor was in one form or another a spiritual hero with the potential to inspire us.

Far from standing up for Haredi rights, he merely showed how shallow his own definition of spiritual heroism was.

dh

This is a riot, Jeff, "Fundamentalists have absolutely no sense of irony." I want to see this on every bumper. Honestly, I appreciate your wit knocking around inside your posts. Copyright this one. It's great.

seymour

Posted by: Deremes | April 15, 2012 at 03:33 PM

sorry i grew up believing the same lies you where told

after reading and thinking I found out who really lied

the same people who lied to you

chuck

@JANCSIBACSI I am actually not Hasidic so nice try I know you probably thought you delivered a knockout line with the last line in yiddish so sorry to burst your bubble.

I do not hold myself to be on a higher level then anyone, a higher inteligence level then you well obviously but hey that is not saying much.

jancsibacsi

chuck-Youre calling jeff scum just whos how low you are as the saying goes .it takes one to know one so you chukky baby are a lowlife scum as i see it since you hold youreself to be on a highter madreige kenst gain kishen dem tohes of dain rebbe.

Yoel Mechanic

Posted by: barry | April 15, 2012 at 02:40 PM

Gee, thanks a lot!! Was that supposed to be helpful?

You know, I strain to hear anything rational in the Jew hatred. It seems the hatred comes first, then look for something to pin it on. That's why it seems the stereotypes are something contradictory. And this is how hostility is generated, in general.

Deremes

seymour,Nobody says that all secular Jews refused to rescue Jews.The working group had many Zionist secular Jews who rescued Jews.
And btw,you only repeat what others tell you.Go read for yourself and get out of your brainwashed mind when it comes to religious Jews.You so brainwashed that you cant even think straight and see the facts and therefore you repeat the lies.

chuck

@JEFF You are right I got a big problem with you, as you are not just stating your opinion you make ridiculious statements as well.

And your the one that keeps on commenting after I post so I guess so who again needs the last word?? You pathetic piece of scum!

seymour

Jeff

it is a time honored tradition
maybe that is a stretch that Orthodox or rebbies did discuss matters with apikorsim reb meyer did from the talmuld

another thing

herdiem and any fundamentalist have a different meaning to the word fact


most people it means something that actually exists; reality; truth

to herdein anything that they can say that backs up their believes and it dies not really have to exist or be true


deremes nobody says all frummmas are crooks and so on, what we are saying that some of your holy men really where not that self sacrificing

at least the betlz rebbie ask for forgiveness for his actions during then holocaust

the satmar could not bring himself to do that his hate for Zionist and secular clouded his faculties


Deremes

Barry'la, L'chaim,.how is the vodka

barry

Deremes, if I offered the Yoelishers some winterized trucks and substantial quantities of tea and sugar, to give up Metzizah be'Peh so as to save a few Jewish lives, do you think they would consider my offer?

Rocky

My father's Polish relatives who lived in a shtetl in Galicia at the outbreak of WWII were undoubtedly far more observant than I am these days. In 1937, their lives were probably not much different than the people described by Joseph Roth in his book "The Wandering Jews". Almost all of them perished in the war and their names were forgotten until one of my cousins developed an interest in genealogy and I did too. When Yad Vashem put its data base on line a few years ago, I was able to put together a list of family victims and how they were related. My relatives will be able to pass it down to their children and grandchildren if they care to.

barry

Daniel Pipes observes, "virtually every major figure in the early history of socialism -- including Friedrich Engels, Charles Fourier, Ferdinand Lasalle, Marx, and Joseph Proudhon -- showed a marked antipathy to Jews".

Proudhon wrote "The Jew is by temperament an anti-producer, neither a farmer nor an industrialist nor even a true merchant. He is an intermediary, always fraudulent and parasitic, who operates, in trade as in philosophy, by means of falsification, counterfeiting, and horse-trading"

Russian anarchist Mikhail Bakunin declared that Jews were "one exploiting sect, one people of leeches, one single devouring parasite closely and intimately bound together not only across national boundaries, but also across all divergences of political opinion ... [Jews have] that mercantile passion which constitutes one of the principle traits of their national character"

Bernard Lazare,the French Jewish thinker wrote in 1894:

Wherever the Jews settled [in their Diaspora] one observes the development of anti-Semitism, or rather anti-Judaism ... If this hostility, this repugnance had been shown towards the Jews at one time or in one country only, it would be easy to account for the local cause of this sentiment. But this race has been the object of hatred with all nations amidst whom it settled. Inasmuch as the enemies of Jews belonged to diverse races, as they dwelled far apart from one another, were ruled by different laws and governed by opposite principles; as they had not the same customs and differed in spirit from one another, so that they could not possibly judge alike of any subject, it must needs be that the general causes of anti-Semitism have always resided in [the people of] Israel itself, and not in those who antagonized it.

Yoelish's and those like him had no response to the fact that non Jews be they left wing, right wing or liberal, were not prepared to tolerate Ghetto Judaism was to stick his fingers in his ears and intensify the fanaticism the non Jews found so offensive in the superstitious believe it would save Jews.

Hareidi refusal to recognize the obvious and blame Zionist is just a symptom of cognitive dissonance

Deremes

Ok we have a revisionist historian who claims that the Zionist establishment did indeed rescue hundreds of thousands and perhaps millions of Jews from being killed.

The fact that documents proofs differently doesn't matter.

The fact that the Zionist leaders of that time didn't deny why they refused in rescuing Jews,doesn't matter.

The fact that Andrew Steiner who was a secular Jew who was part of the working group(i think he lived in Atlanta after the war)said that what rabbi Wiessmandel said is 100%true,doesn't matter.

The fact that Rabbi Wiesmandel feared for his life from the Zionist thuggish establishment in signing his name to the "Ten Question To The Zionist",doesn't matter.They could of just brushed it off saying he is lying and mentally ill.But no,they know its true,but all that does not matter.

The fact that rabbi Wiessmandl was answered by the Jewish agency "Rak B'dam Tihyu Lanu Haaretz” (only through blood will the land be ours),doesn't matter.

The fact that reform rabbi Stephen Wise publicly announced a boycott against Germany and Wisleciny told Rabbi Wiessmandel "how foolish you Jews are in angering the Germans more then they are already",doesn't matter

What matters is Charadi Jews lie,cheat,steal and had a hand in killing hundreds of thousands of Jews during the war.

The truth always prevails.And the truth is that Zionism only grew and was successful with Jewish blood on their hands.But after so many years we see that even with it a so called Jewish state is it the most unsafe place for Jews to live because 'Sheker ein Lo Raglaim.

Rocky

The Nazis didn't make distinctions between observant and non-observant Jews, so it seems silly to start another unnecessary squabble. I do remember reading about one important rabbi from Eastern Europe (whose name I forget) who decided to take his books rather than some of his followers. Even his Christan rescuers were perplexed. Is this a true story? Since when do books take priority over people?

barry

Deremes, the Hareidi attitude to the Holocaust reminds me of Satmar's photoshopping of the Hilary in the situation room photo. It misses the central point that the situation of the Jews became untenable in Europe because the the non-Jewish majority in countries were large number of Jews (especially 'backward' Jews) were present where not prepared to allow this large 'foreign' presence to continue.

The following statements were made not by Nazis, but by liberals and progressives.

Voltaire who was considered as a champoion against tyranny wrote that Jews 'were the greatest scoundrels who have ever sullied the face of the globe ... They are, all of them, born with raging fanaticism in their hearts, just as the Bretons and Germans are born with blond hair. I would not in the least be surprised if these people would not some day become deadly to the human race ... You [Jews] have surpassed all nations in impertinent fables, in bad conduct, and in barbarism. You deserve to be punished, for this is your destiny.

He wrote 'the Jew does not belong to any place except that place which he makes money; would he not just as easily betray the King on behalf of the Emperor as he would the Emperor for the King?" (Katz, 44). Thirty of 118 of Voltaire's essays in his Dictionary of Philosophy address Jews, usually disparagingly. Voltaire calls Jews "our masters and our enemies ... whom we detest ... the most abominable people in the world."

Montesquieu (of separation of powers fame) wrote "Know that wherever there is money,there is the Jew"

Prof David Sorkin notes, "Jews were roundly condemned for "their ritualistic religion, national character or economic situation which, separately or together, prevented them from being moral. Enlightenment thinkers almost without exception subscribed to this image of Jewish inferiority" (Sorkin, 85). "The ghetto," Enlightenment intellectuals argued, "had produced an essentially unacceptable culture. Jews were utter strangers to Europe. Social isolation had created traits in need of drastic transformation: Jews harbored within them hatred of the Christian nurtured by centuries of Talmudic and rabbinic indoctrination, they were religious fanatics, parasitic in their economics and dishonest in their dealings"

Alan Dershowitz,

the virulently anti-Jewish statements of intellectuals throughout history? Their numbers included H. L. Mencken ('The Jews could be put down very plausibly as the most unpleasant race ever heard of'); George Bernard Shaw ('Stop being Jews and start being human beings'); Henry Adams ('The whole rotten carcass is rotten with Jew worms'); H.G. Wells ('A careful study of anti-Semitism, prejudice and accusations might be of great value to many Jews, who do not adequately realize the irritation they inflict'); Edgar Degas (characterized as a 'wild anti-Semite'); Denis Diderot ('Brutish people, vile and vulgar men'); Theodore Dreiser (New York is a 'kike's dream of a ghetto,' and Jews are not 'pure Americans' and 'lack integrity'); T. S. Eliot (a social as well as literary anti-Semite, even after the Holocaust); Immanuel Kant ('The Jews still cannot claim any true genius, any truly great man. All their talents and skills revolve around stratagems and low cunning ... They are a nation of swindlers.')

Prof Pawel Spiewak, speaks in similar terms:

We find the representatives of almost every ideological orientation [who were anti-Semites] ... Enlightenment thinkers (Voltaire), arch-conservatives (de Masitre, de Bonald), socialists and communists (Fourier, Proudhon, Marx, Sobel), and the great Romantics (Goethe). These writers seem to differ in everything -- their relation to religion, the idea of progress, authority, feudalism, and capitalism, the concept of knowledge and human nature -- but they are united in a spirit of dislike and hostility towards that strange tribe, the Jew

Jeff

But you right that you refuse to read becuase you are brainwashed.

Posted by: Deremes | April 15, 2012 at 01:58 PM

In addition to what Shmarya said, I'll merely add what I always say.

Fundamentalists have absolutely no sense of irony.

Jeff

Chuck, you're joking....right?

No, he apparently has a problem with me.

And, apparently, has to have the last word.

chuck

@JEFF it scares me to know what you saw but it definitley was not the true torah or any sort of truth!

Yoel Mechanic

>it brings down the whole inteligence level of this site.

Chuck, you're joking....right?

Yoel Mechanic

>they will be disillusioned in the most literal sense.

Yaakov, did you personally go through this disillusionment? And for precisely that reason?

Shmarya

The brutal role the Zionist played during the war:

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/antisemitism/holocaust/index.cfm

Also,the "Ten Questions To The Zionist" that Rabbi Wiessmandl asked in a pamphlet which he had distributed all over NY shulls but he did not sign his name on it because he feared for his life from the Zionist thugs becuase they knew what he wrote is 100%true:

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/rabbi_quotes/weissmandl.cfm

Posted by: Deremes | April 15, 2012 at 01:48 PM

It must be nice being an cretin with the education of a small child. You don't have to worry about facts or truth or reality.

But, moron, the rest of us do.

And as I and others have told you and showed you many times over the years, your Satmar anti-Zionist PR isn't even remotely true.

We have the facts – from Slovakian archives, Hungarian archives, Nazi archives, Jewish archives, etc., and those facts prove you wrong.

Wiessmandl was a broken man who did not have access to most of those facts and who hated those who could not help him.

He was sick, he was mentally ill, and he was very wrong.

At least he had excuses for his errors.

You and that evil thug you follow, Yoel Teitelbaum, do not.

D

I've never been to Yad Vashem, I wonder if they will also include the story from 1943 and the orphans, mostly from Poland,religious I believe, escaped thru the Soviet Union, ending up in Teheran Iran...(the whole story) I'll look for it while I'm there..

Deremes

Posted by: Jeff | April 15, 2012 at 01:52 PM

I never respond to your ugly diatribes.

But you right that you refuse to read becuase you are brainwashed.

Jeff

I saw "True Torah" and didn't bother to go any farther.

Bring us an article from a tenured professor at an Ivy League university, then I'll pay attention.

chuck

What hurts is seeing a asshole like yourself with the inteligence of a child posting on this blog. Everyone is entitled to their view and opinion however when someone like you comments it brings down the whole inteligence level of this site.

Do us all a favor get a life and get back on the medication!

Deremes

The brutal role the Zionist played during the war:

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/antisemitism/holocaust/index.cfm

Also,the "Ten Questions To The Zionist" that Rabbi Wiessmandl asked in a pamphlet which he had distributed all over NY shulls but he did not sign his name on it because he feared for his life from the Zionist thugs becuase they knew what he wrote is 100%true:

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/rabbi_quotes/weissmandl.cfm

hassid

It may be true that the majority of Jewish victims of the Holocaust were traditionally observant. But its a stretch to say Haredi. Polish Jewish life was very different than what we have today. For example, what would you say about a socialist who was virulently anti-religious politically but kept the Sabbath (at least in public)? Haredi? MO? Or none of the above? How about the Poalei Agudah which pressed for people to use Jewish workers and not goyim, against mainstream agudah which said you can just sell 1/7th of your factory and keep it open on shabbat? Ultra Haredi or ultra marxist or ultra nationalist? I think Haredi or proto Haredi Jews did exist for example in Galicia, Hungary and parts of Lithuania. But in the latter two cases they were a small minority. More common even amongst Orthodox Jews were either traditional Jews or cultivated urban Jews with a connection to Orthodoxy. Neolog in Hungary also seems to have been closer to our "MO" than conservative. Really this game is stupid. Religious life before the war was just different and you need to take it on its own terms rather than assume the same political fissures which are unique to the Israeli state inhered in prewar Poland or Lita.

Jeff

Posted by: chuck | April 15, 2012 at 01:38 PM

I'm trying to see if you can stand not having the last word.

And about the topic of this thread - the truth hurts, doesn't it?

chuck

@ JEFF Thank g-d unlike you I do not live in mommy and daddys house anymore.

One question for does your mom know know her little Jeff is not taking his medication?

Jeff

It is, therefore, inevitable that the Orthodox narrative would be completely omitted by Yad Vashem. The Orthodox narrative served no useful purpose in furthering the Zionist agenda. Indeed, if anything, it would have set back that agenda by raising all kinds of other notions as to what the Holocaust meant to the Jewish people.

Posted by: chaim yankel | April 15, 2012 at 01:15 PM

If you're truly interested in being objective, read the rebuttal to which Rebitzman provided the link above:

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/yad-vashem-responds-we-do-pay-tribute-to-holocaust-s-ultra-orthodox-victims-1.424419


chaim yankel

I will take a contrarian view here and say that I largely agree with Wikler for two principal reasons.

One. I don't think the percentages matter. There were clearly vast multitudes of orthodox jews who perished in the holocaust from poland russia lithuania as well as czechoslovakia hungary and the austrian-german region. There is a compelling narrative to be told about how they dealt with their faith in the face of the holocaust. In no way does the recitation of that narrative detract or lessen the sacrifice made by all jews or non-jews for that matter. Similarly, no one would suggest that Anne Frank and Elie Wiesel's stories detract from other victims. Every Holocaust narrative bears repeating and remembering.

Two. Yad Vashem is a Zionist institution created primarily to further the argument of Israel's founders that the historical imperative for the State of Israel is that it arose out of the ashes of the Holocaust. (Thats the why the Palestinians are such fervent holocaust deniers). The Zionist State of Israel was also created specifically to replace the national character and identity of the jewish people from being religion based to one anchored in statehood and with a very general jewish culture. (thats not Satmar 101 but basic Zionist ideology of Herzl, Weizman Ben Gurion etc)

It is, therefore, inevitable that the Orthodox narrative would be completely omitted by Yad Vashem. The Orthodox narrative served no useful purpose in furthering the Zionist agenda. Indeed, if anything, it would have set back that agenda by raising all kinds of other notions as to what the Holocaust meant to the Jewish people.

Jeff

Posted by: Deremes | April 15, 2012 at 01:03 PM

You wouldn't know a "Fact" if it bit you on your cholent-fed behind.

Deremes

Posted by: SkepticalYid | April 15, 2012 at 12:43 PM

I cant expect a different response from a yid who is skeptical about Judaism.

Fact:The satmer rebbe was saved by the brainstorm idea of Rabbi Wiesmandel that the Nazis can be bought.
The Satmar rebbe did NOT want to go on the train that was called the Kastner train becuase he did NOT trust the Zionist.
Chaim Roth had to convince him that all is ok.
Kastner had to be convinced by his father in law to take along the satmar rebbe.
This and much more then you will ever hear I personally heard from Chaim Roth who was from the the orthodox leaders in Budapest.
He and Kastner met with Eichman about the satmar rebbe.

Fact:Most people including the rebbes you mentioned wanted desperately to flee but didn't had the chance.
On another thread a while back i think it was you Mr.SY that mentioned a big tzadik and you claimed that he choose to be deported. I told you then that you have no clue and he wanted desperately to flee but for some reason he missed it.I heard it from his son who passed away a few years ago and there are many grandchildren that tell the story.

Jeff

and the co-pilot would do anything to make him go back to his seat.

Posted by: Michael from Lakewood | April 15, 2012 at 12:46 PM

Heh! I'm sure that was it. Any other airline would have just thrown him off the plane. Only El Al gives in to these lunatics.

Jeff

Get a life bro!

Posted by: chuck | April 15, 2012 at 12:54 PM

Do your parents know you're using the internet?

chuck

@JEFF Actualy I was watching the knick game you freak. You sound so bitter go call ur mother for some love. When posting my comments here I am trying to get idiots like yourself instead of commenting here so that at least I won't be consorting with stupidity.

Get a life bro!

Michael from Lakewood

"..... Some broke down in tears and expressed their deep spiritual yearnings. The co pilot was so moved that he was willing to put on my tfillin."

I'll bet some broke down in tears when they realized that they were a captive audience, and the co-pilot would do anything to make him go back to his seat.

SkepticalYid

Rabbi Wiesmandel had one goal:to rescue Jews no matter religious or secular.The Zionist machers had other goals and even when other Zionist like the Irgun tried saving Jews the Hgagna for their dirty politics mad sure the Irgun to fail.You should mention this also to your naive readers.
Posted by: Deremes | April 15, 2012 at 12:25 PM

Fact: Kastner, a Zionist and representative of the Zionist Yishuv saved Yoilish and hundreds of others.
Fact: Halberstam (Klausenberg) and other Rebbes from the Satmar/Maramuresh area who knew FULL WELL what was in store for their followers stayed with them and went to the camps instead of running away like Yoilish.
Fact: The rise of secularism among European Jews preceded the Zionist movement by decades and was entirely independent of that phenomenon.

Jeff

One more thing maybe you should go to someone like Dr, Wikler or a non religious doctor for your issues. Just go to someone!

Posted by: chuck | April 15, 2012 at 12:29 PM

Why are you posting comments here, consorting with apikorsim? Shouldn't you be learning Toyreh?

You need to do teshuvah!

Jeff

Posted by: Deremes | April 15, 2012 at 12:25 PM

"Satmar good, Zionism bad, blah, blah... ." Always the same drek.

A trained parrot has more intelligent things to say.

chuck

@JEFF There you again that last comment was so childish and immatture in its nature which leads me to believe two things about you. Firstly you probably suffer from some sort of mental retardation, second you probably have family issues where you did not receive any love from your parents . I pity you.

Either way keep comenting as its actually quite hillarious watching you make a ass out of yourself.

One more thing maybe you should go to someone like Dr, Wikler or a non religious doctor for your issues. Just go to someone!

Deremes

Thanks to Zionism a big portion if not the majority of Jews were secular before the war.Interesting how come they the secular frei yidden didn't flee Europe since they didn't listen to the rebbes who told "everyone" to stay.Were they too "duped" by the rebbies?


All available evidence shows Rabbi Weissmandl – the Slovakian rabbi who was courageous and tireless as he tried to save Jews from the Nazis – in fact, duped the Nazis and achieved alot.He kept Wisclenciny in suspense with all kind of tricks for months.
As per his writing in Min hametzar and per the people who helped him he held back for two years the killings of thousands of Slovakian Jews.

Chardei Jews were always accused by secular Jews of being money hungry schnorers and lying.

Zionism's philosophy was that the more Jews killed by the Nazis the easier it will be to achieve their goal in getting a Jewish Zionist state.

If you want to be honest with your readers you should quote the dozens of quotes by Issac Grunbaum Ben-Gourion,Sally Mayer,Nathan Schwalb and a whole bunch of others how they ignored and made sure Jews are not rescued all because they had a goal to get a state. Shame on them and let them rot in hell.

The Satmar rebbe and many other orthodox people especial from Budapest raised loads of money in trying to save Jews.

Rabbi Wiesmandel had one goal:to rescue Jews no matter religious or secular.The Zionist machers had other goals and even when other Zionist like the Irgun tried saving Jews the Hgagna for their dirty politics mad sure the Irgun to fail.You should mention this also to your naive readers.

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