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April 15, 2012

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whatup

I am crying for god right now.. the world has gone insane

abe

danny perhaps u should say Shelo asani daati as in ata chonen

Shmarya

Jackie Dwyer and Mary Ann Farrior are the same person sockpuppeting.

And that just got him/her banned.

Mary Ann Farrior

Elana Knopp did not grow up in Brooklyn & was by any definition hasidic & by no means a victim other than her own personal choices. She grew up in posh Wynnewood PA on Philadelphia`s Main Line. Her father was a professor at Temple University http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvin_Knopp & was exposed to all media be it cable TV , movies & everything else that a suburban girl could want. For whatever personal reasons she chose a different path from her parents . But this was her choice. When her kum ba ya feeling withered she burnt out & jumped ship leaving a family that she chose to build & then break . That is her story no more no less.

Jackie Dwyer

Elana Knopp is hardly one to comment on such matters. She grew up on Philadelphia`s liberal Main Line & was a regular @ the very Modern Orthodox Lower Merion Synagogue . Her father was a professor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvin_Knopp & she was as exposed to cable television , movies & all forms of media. It was her decision to become chareidi . Unfortunately when the kum ba ya feeling left & all that remained were kids, tuition & diapers in place she burnt out & jumped into a pair of pants & left. This was a total matter of choice.

Yaakov

Abracadabra:

You can find an email address on my blog (linked from my profile, on the "posted by" line below. If you write to that address, I can contact you and we can talk more. Your simple questions are actually very complicated ones because they have a yesod which is quite expansive.

If you'd like to continue, that would be the best way. I am already seen as prolix, solipsistic, and tendentious by many here and I don't want to enhance that reputation further.

Abracadabra

Yaakov -

Kol hakavod. Your attitudes seem like very healthy ones. You are one of the more respectible people who comment on this site. I have learned a lot from you. And I find it commendable that you are trying to sort the good from the "nonsense" (as you called it).

I've tried not to throw out the baby with the bathwater, and to find some balance, but I find doing so to be extremely challenging, and haven't found a happy balance on any level.

Those of us who grew up frum and discovered "the nonesense" once we were adults, or even in our 30's or 40's, when we were mature enough to start thinking for ourselves, often throw the baby out with the bathwater. It seems to be very common and I would even say it's a natural response. My theory on why it is this way is for psychological reasons. I think it's because we really NEVER can escape it - the frumkeit - it's a part of who we are because it was a strong part of our upbringing. Removing "the nonesense" requires us to choose a new epistomology, to rewire our brains in a sense, and to find a new identity. To do all that we have to turn the "cold" water on full blast to drown out the scorching "hot" water which can never really be turned off and is always there, pulsating through our lives and our psyches.

I don't think that I would have to be a Jew, but that's what I am. I will do everything I can to preserve that...

Can I ask you what makes you feel that it is a value worth preserving in a way that requires the sacrifice that it takes to be shomer shabbos, and to keep other mitzvos?

I've also wondered what draws you to this website. What draws you to reading daily about all the wrongdoings in the Orthodox world? And then why do you take the time and effort to actually comment on this blog?

Yaakov

Abracadabra:

I just have to take responsibility for my own life. I can't spend time being bitter or angry. I have certainly experienced anger and pain, but I can't dwell on it.

What I am trying to do is find my own way. I refuse to throw away the good that I found, and so I have to untangle it from the nonsense and set it in the framework that I have built over my lifetime of thinking about these things.

I am a Jew, because I was born that way. I don't think that I would have to be a Jew, but that's what I am. I will do everything I can to preserve that, so long as it is in service to the greater good I perceive as the goal of my life.

There isn't time to be bitter, there's too much to do. I spent too much time on it, I have to make that up.

Abracadabra

It was shatnez and the gemara tells us that when we discover it, we have to take it off, even in a crowded market.

Torah True Judaism in the nude.

A personal question to you if I may - how do you deal with the bitterness, pain, and anger at having sacrificed so much for what you later discovered to be "shatnez"?

Litvish

Posted by: Fred | April 16, 2012 at 11:45 AM

I just discovered your recent posts here.

Thanks so much!

You have helped me to be more open, more sympathetic, more aware of the diversity in the frum world.

I, too, knew some of the old timers who were real menshen, open minded, open hearted. They represent for me the best in Yiddishkayt.

A sheynem dank, aykh.

MoishieCohen

MoisheCohen:

That was precisely the intended joke.

Posted by: Yaakov | April 17, 2012 at 06:00 AM

Sorry. You can't be too sure online (or on this site, to be more specific)

Jeff

There is no "Chanoch l'na'ar al pi darko" - there is no "different strokes for different folks" - it's one size must fit everyone. If you don't fit - you get all bent out of shape and broken while they try to force you to fit with veiled or outright threats of rejection.

The very real casualties that you find with Kiruv is just a reflection of the Yeshivish world where the "Kiruv Movement" was born. The "Kiruv Movement" is just a natural outgrowth of the Yeshivish movement and of RW Orthodoxy. (And it is no coincidence that "Kiruv Professionals" are all Yeshivish.) Very similar emotional and psychological real life casualties exist because of the same ideology - where the thinking is as you said - "the worthy ones will make it - the rest were just broken to begin with".

Absolutely right. This is what I was trying to say above, as well. (Although Chabadniks will tell you they aren't Yeshivish and they're accepting of everyone - which they are, as long as one is willing to drink the Kool Aid.)

And that is why you find so many of us here on FM, with all of our bitterness and pain over how "the system" lied, cheated, and failed us, and then told us that we were the failures. Additionally, some of us lost our youth and the best years of our lives to those lies and manipulations.

I hear the same sentiment expressed so often by former evangelicals. Fundamentalist belief systems are all the same - yet the adherents of each one have the hubris to think theirs is unique.

Yaakov

Abracadabra:

It was shatnez and the gemara tells us that when we discover it, we have to take it off, even in a crowded market.

Abracadabra

Kiruv is about "throw as many as you can against the wall of frumkeit and see how many stick". If some get broken in the process, well, they weren't worthy in the first place.

Yaakov -

The same can be said with Yeshivish education and the Yeshivish lifestyle. There is no "Chanoch l'na'ar al pi darko" - there is no "different strokes for different folks" - it's one size must fit everyone. If you don't fit - you get all bent out of shape and broken while they try to force you to fit with veiled or outright threats of rejection. And you try to fit because nobody wants to be left out in the cold. Even individualists and those who don't like to conform, want to belong SOMEWHERE. Everyone wants friends. And most people want the friends they grew up with, those they are familiar with, the community that they know. But as tight knit and safe and nurturing as the the community is - it will kick you out so fast that you fall flat on your face if you can't fit yourself into the ever-narrowing little box. It is too vulnerable and threatened by "the outside world" to be able to tolerate any dissent. And if you can't conform, well, then YOU must be the problem, because "Torah True Judaism" is "True".

The very real casualties that you find with Kiruv is just a reflection of the Yeshivish world where the "Kiruv Movement" was born. The "Kiruv Movement" is just a natural outgrowth of the Yeshivish movement and of RW Orthodoxy. (And it is no coincidence that "Kiruv Professionals" are all Yeshivish.) Very similar emotional and psychological real life casualties exist because of the same ideology - where the thinking is as you said - "the worthy ones will make it - the rest were just broken to begin with".

And that is why you find so many of us here on FM, with all of our bitterness and pain over how "the system" lied, cheated, and failed us, and then told us that we were the failures. Additionally, some of us lost our youth and the best years of our lives to those lies and manipulations.

Same lies, same school of thought, same ideology, different target. Kiruv targets those on the outside. Yeshivos, Rabbanim, "The Agudah", ArtScroll, frum newspapers and magazines and "The Gedolim" target those on the inside. Both are thrown at the wall and it is hoped that they will stick. None are cared for as individuals. It is the group's survival that comes before everything.

So, you see Yaakov, you're a part of the club after all! You're a card carrying member of the "I had the wool of what I thought was 'Torah True Judaism' pulled over my eyes".

Jeff

Yaakov, it would appear that Haredim are the only Jews who seem to lack the ability to apprehend irony (a trait common to fundamentalists of all varieties).

Some years ago, a college professor conducted a study in which he determined that Ashkenazi Jews comprise the "funniest" ethnic group. (obviously, his criteria had to be pretty subjective). I suspect he didn't talk to any Haredim.

(Or maybe I'm just not funny!)

Jeff

Thank you for sharing all of those details about your life...

Thank you again for sharing so much. Your writing is fun, funny, and refreshing. I'm hoping you'll stick around this site for a while.

Again, seconded.

Abracadabra

Fred -

Thank you so much for those great posts. I very much enjoyed reading your story, and you gave me a lot to think about. Thank you for sharing all of those details about your life.

I think most of us over the age of 35 can understand and relate to your having been cruel to your mom when you were young, and now that you're older you're respectful and regret having done that. You are fortunate in many ways, and one of them is in having this time with your mom when you are both more mature. Not everyone gets to spend time with their parents after they themselves have grown older and wiser. And it is to her credit that she is able to come to grips with who you are and that your life choices were for yourself and were not meant to hurt her.

I find it refreshing that you realize how fortunate you were and are in so many ways.

Your Nidah descriptions were great, together with lots of other good lines.

Thank you again for sharing so much. Your writing is fun, funny, and refreshing. I'm hoping you'll stick around this site for a while.

A woman named Fred - you can make a partner song to "A Boy Named Sue". I apologize for questioning you about it -like much else in your life - you are certainly unique in this way!

Yaakov

MoisheCohen:

That was precisely the intended joke.

MoishieCohen

This gay, divorced, hateful, angry, depressed, non-frumma troll goes by many names: APC, seymour, jancsipista, Jeff, Yakov, yassi, rebitzman, alter kocker, WSC, Litvish, Bassie, Ruthie, Shoshie, etc.

Posted by: groogle | April 15, 2012 at 07:56 PM

I take exception to that. I'm not divorced!

Posted by: Jeff | April 15, 2012 at 08:10 PM


If you weren't being ironic, the possibility of you owning up to being a 'gay, hateful, angry, depressed, non-frumma troll' is too funny

MoishieCohen

Girls are sent off into marriages without even the most rudimentary knowledge of their own bodies, reproduction or sex.

Rubbish.

Frum/yeshivish girls attend 'Kallah lessons' with a teacher where apart from hilchot Niddah, they learn about sex too.

I think even the cHassidim, with the notable exception of Ger, do this

John Haman

i hope all of you are the same 3 trolls. i want to give this site the benefit of doubt that besides these 3 or 4 trolls going at it, there are some mature readers of this blog. trolls if you would be able to read all your useless childish banter you would feel really stupid and stop.

nj princess

Posted by: Lubavitchers are Christians | April 15, 2012 at 11:21 AM

I hope its not too late to get into this discussion but you wrote:
It would work the same way if an atheist couple was mired in a custody battle, and the father suddenly decided to become a haredi. He would immediately LOSE custody of the children, because the courts would deem his new-found religion to decrease stability for the children.

TO call this a lack of first ammendment freedom of religion is blatantly false and misleading.
100 per cent WRONG!!!! the atheist couple in your example would have willingly entered into the marriage as adults. The whole point of marrying off the chareidi kids, esp the girls before they are even able to vote and /or enter into legal secular contracts on their own let alone buy alcohol is that CHILDREN who do have the right to say no (sometimes) to a particular match but certainly do not have the right to say no to a chareidi match, are then later told - the marriage was ultra orthodox so the kids must remain so at the expense of your custody rights... If the "kids" were marrying at 25 the system MIGHT make sense...

dh

Thanks Fred.

no wonder

at least i'm getting my message across to you thanx

no wonder

so with me that makes 4 readers i've never seen a website with this much trash never ever a nice thing to say about religious people shame on you this looks like a pre-school chat room no intelligence whatsoever. so is trashing religious jews your defense mechanism?

Fred

Eli -- you're welcome.

Just to be clear I'm not ANTI-anything, & very pro-choice. If being Chassidish, Litvish, Frum, Conservative, Atheist, whatever makes you happy & a better person I'm truly happy for you. My siblings are phenomenal people, married to some of the best people I can imagine & raising healthy, well adjusted, educated children who WILL be going to Uni ... &, yes, they are frum. We talk as often as possible, have family vacations, visit, do simchas, etc, & no one turns away from me or says anything odd ... I'm just Aunt Fred & we love each other. It is possible.

What I do have a very serious problem with is coercion of anyone by threat, force or whatever has been thought of (refusal of a Get, threats against child custody, threats of cutting someone out/off, etc), to do something/ be something that is making you miserable, or, worse, hurting you physically or mentally (this goes for marriage, education, lifestyle, etc).

The women in the article suffered/ are suffering, & just because I was able to make a choice without long term repricutions & (compared to them) relative ease I would NEVER, EVER judge them until I walked a mile in their shoes. Calling them names based on looks or supposed sexual preferences is repugnant & ... so what? Who cares what they look like or who they want to have as a partner, what should matter is that a person is in trouble, children are caught in the middle & their supposed communities are turning a blind eye at best.

Jeff

Fred, wonderful posts. Thank you for taking the time.

Posted by: Eli, what me messiah? | April 16, 2012 at 11:46 AM

Seconded.

Jeff

Um, I don't know why you'd say that?

I meant it self-deprecatingly.

no wonder

so out of 136 comments on this story there are really only 3 people commenting no wonder why your blog needs help!!!

Eli, what me messiah?

Fred, wonderful posts. Thank you for taking the time.

Fred

Well, that pretty much shuts me up!

Um, I don't know why you'd say that? It shouldn't. I was just trying to show a "scratch the surface, find a positive difference" example in a 4 block x 4 ave of (obviously not-very-typical) Satmar's. To be sure I could probably find quite a few alkey-haul/ self-med/ abuse/ neglect issues if I looked &/or asked. I'm just happy to have met this particular group because I had expected a completely different experience in south-Willi ... but it's important that other people keep perspective & keep asking questions & glaring the spot-light of accountability when/where necessary.

When you say Belz isn't "exactly frum" - are Belzers more lenient in general than other Hasidim? Which group did you grow up in?

I think my definitions might not be yours. I label "Chassid" separate from "frum". I always refer to frum for "black hat" or "ultra orthodox" -- nowadays that would include the 'yeshivish/litvish' movement. So I grew up knowing "Chassid" (the Bubbe/ Zeide generation); Frum (parents generation); MO (all the "normal people" in my yeshiva); Conservative, Reform (didn't really know many till I grew up, but I did go to a Conservative shul for a few events & LOVED men/women sitting together).

About the Belz -- as a semi-outsider, I can say they are considered a bit less strict & laid back in the Chassid world, but by others they may be viewed as typical Chassids. I do know that the NYC variety has a web presence, are into technology, & are very into earning livings, being members of society & pretty cool. Of course there's always the misery in the group, or the Rabbi who goes on a weird stance ... but they generally toddle off to some closed cult like community.

I grew up in the 5 Towns BEFORE the frummies came en-mass, so we were one of the few odd-man-out families. My family is Russian & they were Lubys who slipped to "frum" in my parents generation (I still remember some older relatives who would come only AFTER meals,'just in case' the cert, chos v'shalom, wasn't good enough ... & my parents had their own butcher who delivered, because the glatt situation wasn't up to their standards). But we went to regular Yeshiva HiLi/ HAFTaR (which barely exists anymore, I found out even HAFTaR seems to have gone to far right) ... girls learned equally & boys had real English/ math/ science requirements. 99% went to college ... the ones who didn't were inheriting family business or heading off on some nice Europe long tour.

I'll be honest, I realize I'm probably 1 in a million, with a really good education, a headstrong 'naff-off attitude, a Mother who was able to accept my choices (& finally understood my choice was was NOT rejecting her), a Papa who was desperate for his children to be happy, & a shit load of money & resources ... so my "I'm going to Uni, shove your shiduch" wasn't met with a need for almost non-existent financial aid, a lack of basic education/ need for GED, & the very wise, tsadik, Rabbi Nachman Mandel (who, incidentally went to public school when he was young & lived upstate) to explain to my parents the ONLY way they would loose me is by cutting me off.

I know you have problems with these groups, I have more problems than you can imagine with these groups ... but why are you mad when I find happy examples in the midst of some really, really sad situations?

Jeff

And I think it's coming sooner rather than later.

Posted by: Fred | April 16, 2012 at 09:28 AM

Yeah, but I don't think they're going to be able to rebuild this time. They don't have the resources, and humanity as a whole is running out of time.

But I also know a proud to be Chassid woman on my corner who raised 4 children & told me just before Pesach she's heading to NYU & showed me her course registrations (intro to just about everything including bio) & her husband is SOOOO proud of her he beams when she talks about becoming a lawyer, accountant or physicist (she hasn't decided ... & I think it's awesome that she's going for it).

Well, that pretty much shuts me up!

When you say Belz isn't "exactly frum" - are Belzers more lenient in general than other Hasidim? Which group did you grow up in?

Fred

Fred, I have to agree with ABCD here as well. Decades of observation of fundamentalists, along with extensive experience with addictive personalities (and there's a tremendous amount of overlap between the two), has convinced me that what you are describing is an extremely rare phenomenon. Most of them - the vast majority, in my opinion - care only about having the ontological security blanket. We see this in the cavalier attitude of Christian fundies and Haredim who blithely accept the notion that billions of their human siblings will be lost for all of eternity. They simply don't care; it isn't an issue for them (and, indeed, many of them anticipate it eagerly; this is the foundation of Calvinism). It's entirely about THEM.

EXACTLY! It's ALL about them. The children aren't individuals you've been blessed to watch & help grow, learn & develop into wonderful adults, just extensions of themselves ... the way other people use cars, clothes, homes, etc. That's not love.

I could go on & on about what I see in secular & religious communities in this regard, but you've nailed it. The sad part for me is the Jewish ethos of education, reading, questioning & learning is being tossed away like a bad habit for blind obedience & servitude.

Whether it's learned behavior, or, as I suspect (and as I keep harping upon, and as the experimental data is beginning to bear out), it's genetic - they are profoundly damaged people. They simply should not have the kind of power they enjoy - not societally, and certainly not over the lives of individuals.

You are pretty much on point.

On a side note, people tend to forget the Chassids were the rebels of their day, & Rabbis / communities were horrified by them & the movement. I'm waiting to see what pops up in response to this mishoogas ... it will no doubt be interesting to watch the Haredi Rabbi's & their minions loose their collective minds trying to stop it. And I think it's coming sooner rather than later.

Fred

Fred - How did your parents feel about your driving to their house to see them or join them for a meal on Yom Tov? How did they handle your turning lights on or off in their house on Shabbos? Or did you not do that?

When I lived with them we all had 'suite bedrooms', so I did what I wanted in my area (tv, stereo, lights, etc), but if I wanted fresh coffee (before I convinced them of the goodness of timer coffee makers) I had to walk to go get some. Quite a ways. They had timers, lichts & (for those who know Mauzone) lots of cold fried chicken which somehow managed to be tastier cold.

Honestly, I think in their hearts they always knew. I can't explain it, but they weren't idiots. Just like when a parent pretends they don't smell cigarettes or alcohol on a child's breath & clothes, they had to have seen lights on under my door when they weren't earlier or heard the TV or radio & just played pretend (like, 'oh, I guess she forgot to shut it before Shabbos/yom tov/ yom kippur/' etc). And this started around 8yo, with TV/radio. The clothing started getting funky when I was @ 10yo & discovered my Dad's WWD (he was in manufacturing/ import-export). The "I'm going to study at Columbia" started off the full throttle battles on my 16th birthday & SAT results showing up in the mail was the final straw. Again, it was not easy on both sides, but we worked at it ... & that included a year long "quiet period" between me & my Mother, with my Papa showing up at my dorm every week with a chocolate bar & a check begging me to call her or come home.

To be honest, I did my damndest to respect them, BUT I was a very strong headed child & would mock some of the 'traditions' till my Mother would scream & my father would try to make peace & get caught in the crossfire (he never had sisters & thought it was some girl thing). I still feel badly about that, because I could have made my point without being cruel ... & I'll admit I could be cruel & it was wrong. She loved me & was trying, but teens can be self-centered to the point of being awful.

Now, I try my absolute hardest NOT to disrespect them & would rather not be there than flaunt things ... but right now the bigger 'debate' is why I would feel more comfortable surrounded by Satmars than in a home down the block from them. Which they bought us. Yipppeeeee. Anyone want a nice 4 bedroom in Woodsburgh? (Joking, they're now trying to entice my sster & family back).

Is your husband OTD also or are you OTD and he is Frum?

Belz are Belz are Belz ... it's not exactly frum. He has a beard (nicely trimmed to hipster-hood), but he wears a bowler instead of a black hat & functions in the real world, (he's the a.....e who brought those heinous ringtones to America), which is how I met him. So no, he's not typical but not OTD, we like to say "we're on our own Derech".

We smoke, we drink, I do my own thing, he does his own thing ... & he cooks, cause I'm lousy (to be polite). When I want to relax I shop so he set up 'pre-paid-accounts' for me at stores I enjoy so I can shop without purchasing (per-se)on Shabbos & I try to not laugh when I see him in ripped jeans, sneakers & a streimel/ robe. In other words it works for us, but as Jeff said, it's the rare exception. And NO I don't wear a sheitel or, iccck, stockings. If we visit family who might be upset I get a full head weave (I dare anyone to explain why my weave is different than a sheitel). And as for Niddah ... yeah, right. My version is "I'll lie here, drink champagne & pop bon-bons till I feel better ... you can make dinner & walk the dogs, don't breath to loud & rub my belly, I have cramps." As for the mikvah ... I'll fly monthly to the Carribean & dunk in the ocean full monty if he'd like, but other than that ... eeeew, no creepy lady is inspecting me, I have Olga at my salon to take care of my waxing, buffing needs & that lady is thorough (& brutal).

And I'm just wondering - why would you use a male pseudonym if you are a female?

Um, it's actually been my nickname since I was 10. I slid & fell face forward into a pole trying on a pair of redic shoes that I "had to have" shopping with friends & they started calling me 'Fred Astaire', which shortened to "Fred" after a few weeks. I've been called Fred by friends, family & coworkers ever since. And, yes, I bought the shoes ;~)

You are fortunate to have clearly had parents who were sane and good people who cared more about their children's welfare, than what the neighbors had to say. Unfortunately, that is not very common the the frum world. It is interesting that you found it to be the case in 3 families on your block, but the thousands (yes - THOUSANDS!) of OTD kids living on the streets of Brooklyn will attest to the fact that it is all too rare.

I AM lucky. Maybe it's because my family's Rabbi's experienced the outside world & the older generation in my family lost so much they freaked about loosing any child (a few lost everyone in horrible circumstances in the war), & maybe, just maybe, it's because they realized they had slid a smidge left from the older generation as well (but probably not). But, then again, years ago it really wasn't as nutty (it was nutty enough, but the yeshivish/litvish/lakewood thing as it is today wasn't typical). This is a phenomenon that's really taken on steam in the past 20 years. People I know who wear black hats & are frummy frum I remember listening to Pink Floyd & playing guitar in jeans.

As for my block, I think it's happening more & more across the board, but it's being hidden or people are being convinced to stay publically correct & doing what they will at home (mostly as couples discovering the other one is just as open to loosening up). Maybe people are more open with me because they know I wear jeans & walk dogs (their children all play with them) & have seen my Bubbe & Papa walking down the street with me, not ashamed at all, or because they see my husband in a streimel & jeans, & figure we'd understand or have suggestions so they open up to me (I also keep it on the QT because I'm not sure who knows). But I also know a proud to be Chassid woman on my corner who raised 4 children & told me just before Pesach she's heading to NYU & showed me her course registrations (intro to just about everything including bio) & her husband is SOOOO proud of her he beams when she talks about becoming a lawyer, accountant or physicist (she hasn't decided ... & I think it's awesome that she's going for it).

I could go on & on about people not fitting the 'expectations' of what a Satmar is & does once you get to know them but, again, this is only a small group & it might be/ probably is very, very different when you leave the Broadway to Clymer/ Roebling to Kent area, & especially if you head to the Kiryat Yoel zone.

(Sorry this was so long ... just wanted to explain & yes, I am a rare/ lucky case)

rebitzman

She even refuses to get a Jewish GET unless she's paid an enomorous sum of blackmail money

Are you REALLY suggesting that a woman can refuse a get.......and make it stick?

That's actually kind of funny.

I know of once instance where a woman actually tried this and it took the man about 30 seconds in front of the beit din to get a heter meah rabbonim.

Reb Mendel

Nebech, the one thing we don't need is more spinster to worry about.

rebitzman

@groogle

This gay, divorced, hateful, angry, depressed, non-frumma troll goes by many names: APC, seymour, jancsipista, Jeff, Yakov, yassi, rebitzman, alter kocker, WSC, Litvish, Bassie, Ruthie, Shoshie, etc.

My Satmar employee and Chabad colleague are going to be SO surprised (not to mention my wife).

@Yaacov

You must not actually read what I write.

Clearly.........you are correct. But he did provide a nice chuckle.

norm

The answer to this is quite simple-the secular and frum communities need a get. We are two completely seperate comunities.

Those of us in te secular community need to stop feeding the frum community by demanding that Jewish chartities to which we contribute stop growing the frum monster.

Let the frummies run thier cult on their own shekel.

We need to educate the gentle community that the frummies are not authentic Jews but are to Judaism what Mel Gibson is to Catholicism and Jimmy Swaggert is to the Protestant church.

Reb Mendel

If there is one thing we dont need it is more spinsters to worry about.

Jeff

Well, there you go. Comment immediately preceding my last one = Exhibit A.

Jeff

Posted by: Malka Gittel | April 16, 2012 at 07:49 AM

Well, again - you're dealing with people who are operating at an extremely primitive level of development. The tragic irony is that they think they represent the apogee of humanity's potential.

Austin Powers

ITS A MAN,BABY!

Jeff

But Groogle, do haredi women enjoy sex?

They're doing Hashem's will! How could that not be a source of pleasure for them?

Malka Gittel

Jeff - recognize also that for these Haredim, the easiest way to stigmatize a woman is to attack her femininity - THEY think that "she isn't pretty enough" (by whose standards anyway?) actually means something in the war for credibility.

It's like trying to insult someone by saying they're gay - it may be offensive in the mind of the person who said it, but if the victimthinks there's nothing wrong with it, the insult fails. I don't think either of these women has their feelings hurt by being told they're not hot chains or that their husbands put up with so much from them -- nor SHOULD they feel insulted. But to the person making the insults this foolishness still has meaning, and so it beats having to come up with a relevant or pertinent thought.

And that's why arguing with them is so frustrating. As the saying goes, never engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.

 ruthie

groogle,

do gay men enjoy sex?

you don't deserve an answer.
go away.

Malka Gittel

Groogle - I have to take exception too as I'm not depressed. (Not any more anyway - my shrink and I agree.)

Just please don't ask me if gay men enjoy sex - I only can answer yes from what the ones I know tell me. But Groogle, do haredi women enjoy sex? Or doesn't that matter? And if you tell me yes, how do I know it's not wishful thinking on your part?

Jeff

I believe I've spoken with you recently about the MO shifting to the off-the-deep-end right, and after this Passover, I'm going to actually have to agree with you on that the Modern Orthodoxy of Rav Soloveitchik is *virtually* gone. The only remainder is my grandfather, who was his student and is openly outspoken against the Lakewood and Monsey chumra machine.

Yes, there's the occasional old-timer, here and there, who remembers the way it used to be. The Modern Orthodox rabbi I know, whom I frequently mention, represents the closest we come, here in Boston, to an Avi Weiss kind of character (those of you from or familiar with the frum community here will probably know whom I'm talking about) - yet he is, in realty, what I keep describing as "Haredi Lite" (although he isn't as far gone as some). His mother, conversely, was quite different. She manifested an attitude of tolerance, acceptance and non-judgmentalism, coupled with a no-time-for-chumra-nonsense attitude that you simply don't find any longer. I used to tell the rabbi that his mother was the last REAL Modern Orthodox Jew left in the City of Boston - and she's gone, now. I imagine she and your grandfather would have had much to talk about (if the tznius patrol would have countenanced the two of them having a conversation).

I used to go to the rabbi's home on Shabbat. It's a little far for me to walk and I have health issues, so I'd drive and park around the corner. I thought we had a "don't ask, don't tell" situation. Well, it turned out after a year or two that the rabbi's wife really thought I was walking (although I can't imagine why it hadn't occurred to her), and she was upset; she told me she didn't want me coming if I was driving. When I told the rabbi's mother about it; she got upset; she told me not to listen to her daughter-in-law, to continue to come and to do whatever was best for me.

Some months later, they were going away for the weekend, and the rebbetzen asked me to go to her mother-in-law's apartment on Shabbat to say kiddush for her (although as a card-carrying apikorus, certified by her husband no less, I can't understand why she thought it would "count"). Now, the rabbi's mom lived even farther away from me than they do, so she knew I'd have to drive - but, interestingly, that didn't appear to be a consideration. As long as it wasn't her house, I guess.

So I went over that Shabbat, said kiddush and chatted with her for a while. When I went to leave, she asked me where I'd parked, and when I told her it was a couple of blocks away, she was only concerned that it was too far away. She told me to park closer next time so I wouldn't have to walk as far. I told the rebbetzen this when they returned; as I recall, she didn't say anything.

This is the way the Modern Orthodox used to be. They worried about their own praxis and emunah, and stayed the hell out of other people's business. Of course, my Lubavitcher nephew tells me it isn't that they were more tolerant and less judgmental; it was that they'd fallen away from pure practice until the Haredim began showing up in number after the war and reoriented them, setting them upon the true path. How fortunate the Modern Orthodox were to have them, to show them the error of their ways, Baruch HaShem!

For over half a century, the Haredim have been pushing, pushing, pushing them, relentlessly, to the right - and for the most part they've complied, because they have no goddamn backbone, no spine at all. They were never really comfortable, as a group (regardless of what they told their children), with the compromises they felt they were making to accommodate modernity - so they didn't resist. You've seen the result.

The Haredim are destroying themselves, and when they go, they'll be taking all of Orthodoxy with them. You know that business about lemmings rushing headlong, en masse, over a cliff? It isn't true; it was based upon some staged documentary footage from decades ago. It turns out the only mammals that are actually stupid enough to commit mass suicide are Orthodox Jews.


As it relates to the post, it makes me happy to know that some women are fighting this battle, even if it is an uphill one. All the idiot trolls are missing a salient point. The husbands of these women systematically control these women because the entire Haredi doctrine obligates women to constantly serve and obey, the husbands's personality aside. He can be a saint or a scumbag and at the end of the day these women are still being controlled by the society as a whole.

Posted by: Mike | April 15, 2012 at 10:09 PM

Yes, what they fail to grasp is that it doesn't really matter whether or not these women are being entirely truthful, have admirable characters or whatever. It is the system itself that is to blame; it creates these situations and produces these damaged people.

But of course, they don't really care. Damage control is all they're interested in. They want the security blanket of communal belonging in this life and the promise of heaven in the next, and anyone who interferes with that becomes the enemy and has to be gotten rid of as quickly as possible - violently, if necessary.

Mewling, selfish, psychotic children - and there literally are millions of them. This is the principle reason that humanity is screwed.

Yochanan Lavie

I am coming to this thread late, having been out of town. I have been reading Anya Yezerska's novel "The Bread Givers." It takes place in a chareidi family on the Lower East Side about 100 years ago. The father refuses to work, and studies torah and makes his wife and daughters support him. No suitor is good enough for his daughters; they have to be both frum enough and support him to compensate for lost income if a daughter marries. Some things never change.

Jeff

You are fortunate to have clearly had parents who were sane and good people who cared more about their children's welfare, than what the neighbors had to say. Unfortunately, that is not very common the the frum world. It is interesting that you found it to be the case in 3 families on your block, but the thousands (yes - THOUSANDS!) of OTD kids living on the streets of Brooklyn will attest to the fact that it is all too rare.

Posted by: Abracadabra | April 16, 2012 at 12:13 AM

Fred, I have to agree with ABCD here as well. Decades of observation of fundamentalists, along with extensive experience with addictive personalities (and there's a tremendous amount of overlap between the two), has convinced me that what you are describing is an extremely rare phenomenon. Most of them - the vast majority, in my opinion - care only about having the ontological security blanket. We see this in the cavalier attitude of Christian fundies and Haredim who blithely accept the notion that billions of their human siblings will be lost for all of eternity. They simply don't care; it isn't an issue for them (and, indeed, many of them anticipate it eagerly; this is the foundation of Calvinism). It's entirely about THEM.

Whether it's learned behavior, or, as I suspect (and as I keep harping upon, and as the experimental data is beginning to bear out), it's genetic - they are profoundly damaged people. They simply should not have the kind of power they enjoy - not societally, and certainly not over the lives of individuals.

Jeff

You would hope that even the various sects - Chabad, Satmar, etc - are astute enough, or religious enough, not to let religion be used as a weapon and would reject a parent who cynically uses their school just to manipulate the children against the other parent.

Yes, one would hope - but that simply isn't the way it works. ABCD is right - it's nothing more than a head count for these people. Every nehsomoh they bring in gets them extra Brownie points in Gan Eden, and validates their own belief system in the bargain - because if they can convince you they're right, then, they reason, they must actually be right, and they can stave off for a little while longer the ever-present doubt that threatens to overtake them. This is the foundation of the missionary impulse.

When a BT shows up at Chabad's door (and I know this from experience with my nephew), no one works up a psychological profile. There is no intake process. No one says, "Let's talk for a while and see whether or not this is the right move for you." They simply throw open the doors and say, "Come on in!" Evangelicals are the same way. Conversely, more liberal religions - Catholicism and Liberal Judaism come to mind - have an intake procedure that consists of counseling sessions with a priest or rabbi who has experience in these matters. Triumphalist religions breed a one-size-fits-all, lowest common denominator approach: "This is the way it works for me, so this is the way it HAS to work for everyone else!" It's stupid, childish, unsophisticated, lacking in nuance - and I have absolutely NO patience with such people. None.

And this is a large part of the reason that very little of what Shmarya reports upon here surprises me. These people, whether they're born to the lifestyle or adopt it as adults, are operating at the developmental level of children - and not particularly bright children at that. Everything he exposes - corruption, subjugation of women, sexual aggression and impropriety, bad theology - is to be expected. The inmates are, quite literally, in charge of the asylum - and they have absolutely NO idea as to how precisely they mimic their counterparts in other fundamentalist religions. They are utterly clueless.

Now, if the pearl-clutching grandmothers who were outraged by my statements yesterday want to accuse me yet again of hate-mongering - I really don't have a problem with that.

Yaakov

Abracadabra:

Kiruv is about "throw as many as you can against the wall of frumkeit and see how many stick". If some get broken in the process, well, they weren't worthy in the first place.

If there was a full disclosure law for kiruv workers, they'd have about as much success as a snowball salesman at the north pole.

Abracadabra

Eli - I don't think Chabad, Aish HaTorah, Gateways, Oorah, or any of the other kiruv organizations, limit their kiruv to only single people without children, or to families with children where the childrens' parents married to each other. The goal of kiruv organizations is to convince people to be frum - period. It's a head count. (Then they compete "I was mekarev 8 people". "Well, I did better, I was mekarev 11 people!"). And getting people to become frum includes enrolling their children in yeshivos. If a divorced woman with children is becoming frum - they try to get her to enroll her kids in yeshiva. Oorah came up with a plan of offering free Jewish sleep-away camp - advertised as "promoting Jewish awareness" - where they brainwash the kids to become frum by making frumkeit "so much fun!". Of course these people becoming frum don't know what they are in for. They are only shown certain parts of frum life, and not other parts. But, that's all part of the bait & switch of the Kiruv Campaigns. They are "Frumkeit salesmen" and like any good salesman, they know how to sell a product, and they get you to pay more than you want to, for something you weren't even interested in buying.

The human fallout doesn't matter to them, only the notches in the belts of the "Kiruv Professionals". So, if they get a divorced family, they don't care if the other spouse doesn't want their kids brainwashed or switched out of their schools. They just want everyone to become frum. That value comes before all others. Nothing is more important. Child abuse? They would say "What are you talking about?! It's the BEST thing for children in the world." But the other parent doesn't approve? "So what?!" they'll say, "Torah is more important! Besides, they other parent doesn't really know what is best for the kids if they don't want them to go to yeshiva!" And then, "Let's try to get the other parent to be frum - then we can put another notch in our belt and claim another success story."

David

While without a doubt there are a tremendous number of baalei tshuva, almost every BT I come across has children who seem to be not well adjusted. Admittedly this is anecdotal, but I think that as big as the BT movement is, the exodus will be fivefold.

Posted by: Baal Habos | April 15, 2012 at 11:44 AM

This is my observation as well, even when the parents became BT before they had kids. Some of these children are seriously messed up and OTD.

Eli, what me messiah?

Abra,
Changing the kids from public school to yeshiva would be child abuse. Not hyperbole. Children who grew up with a secular background, being taken away from their friends, and finding themselves suddenly thrust into the rigors of talmudic study? Are you kidding??
That sort of change would only be done only to alienate the other parent. You would hope that even the various sects - Chabad, Satmar, etc - are astute enough, or religious enough, not to let religion be used as a weapon and would reject a parent who cynically uses their school just to manipulate the children against the other parent.
But, hey, maybe being cynical alienators is ok if it increases their ranks?

Abracadabra

It is interesting to note that people who insist that children are given consistency within a divorce because it is so important, and therefore the mother or father must stay frum, and if not lose custody of the children, have no problems with asking divorced Ba'alei Teshuva with children to adopt frumkeit, become religious, take on a huge number of restrictions in their home, change the kids' schools from public school to yeshiva and even change neighborhoods.

So much for consistency.

Abracadabra

The publicizing of cases like these will hopefully alert frum women in any of the sects - Chareidi, Yeshivish, Chassidish, MO - who are thinking of going OTD and getting divorced that they need to think it through and plan it a little more wisely. They would do much better getting divorced BEFORE throwing their shaitel into the furnace and running around in tank tops and tight jeans. Get divorced first, and then afterwards wear whatever the heck you want. And whatever you do - don't sign ANYTHING the Beis Din writes up about keeping your religion's idiodic rituals. That is not part of a Get procedure, and doesn't have to be.

Bottom line - get the legal stuff out of the way before revealing your "dark side". But also - have your kids in mind when you run around sowing your wild oats. You gave birth to those kids, and if you want to parent them, then parent them responsibly and somewhat consistently.

These women who have been burned by the system should write up a handbook for frum women who want out - the smart ways of how to go about it, and maybe more importantly - what NOT to do. A little guide book for others - so that they can go about it wisely.

Eli, what me messiah?

Both WSC and I have been through the legal wringer and we've both spoken out here in the need for caution when dealing with claims of abuse of any type that arise AFTER a separation or divorce is filed. Not saying they aren't ever valid, just that it lands you in a place where allegations of any type can happen. The courts know this, or they should.
As much as I'm not a fan of the haredi world, I would still say every party is entitled to a fair hearing, and not a presumption that they are a bad parent just because they don't support the ex's change of lifestyle.
And, yes, that's total BS about courts not letting you leave your religion. What courts want is continuity in the kids' lives. In my case, I am not what you'd call the most religious person in the world (in the God department I may be a bit to the right of Richard Dawkins) but I made damn sure that the kids were as present as ever in all activities. A more religiously-dedicated non-believer you will not find. The kids will one day thank me for making sure they never missed a Hebrew lesson. Or maybe not. Up to them.
And I was respected even more for it.
So, yeah, my BS detector caught that one..

Abracadabra

Shmarya - if someone sockpuppets, shouldn't all but their first comment be deleted?

Abracadabra

Fred - How did your parents feel about your driving to their house to see them or join them for a meal on Yom Tov? How did they handle your turning lights on or off in their house on Shabbos? Or did you not do that?

Is your husband OTD also or are you OTD and he is Frum?

And I'm just wondering - why would you use a male pseudonym if you are a female?

You are fortunate to have clearly had parents who were sane and good people who cared more about their children's welfare, than what the neighbors had to say. Unfortunately, that is not very common the the frum world. It is interesting that you found it to be the case in 3 families on your block, but the thousands (yes - THOUSANDS!) of OTD kids living on the streets of Brooklyn will attest to the fact that it is all too rare.

Korbendallas72

You just had a crazy, lying former frum woman. Look, the Haredim aren't a mystery anymore. You're not these grand wizards of Judaism with the sole key to the redemption. You're a bunch of totalitarian impostor-kings who fervently worship each other. People on this board don't come to bash Haredim because we don't know what you're about. This isn't baseless hatred, everyone here has a legitimate axe to grind for one reason or another, and Haredi leadership is never responsible for anything because you treat them as demigods. Whether or not this woman is crazy isn't the point. Haredi apologists would have us believe they've licked domestic violence, too. Not that we're stil humans in fucking exile or anything, no... not these guys. They're not a cult. Bib's nuclear duck metaphor comes to mind.

David

While without a doubt there are a tremendous number of baalei tshuva, almost every BT I come across has children who seem to be not well adjusted. Admittedly this is anecdotal, but I think that as big as the BT movement is, the exodus will be fivefold.

Posted by: Baal Habos | April 15, 2012 at 11:44 AM

This is my observation as well. And I am talking about parents who were BT even before they had kids. Some of these kids are seriously messed up and OTD.

Fred

Fundamentalists will nearly always side with the group or the authority figure to the extent of abandoning their children. That's the reason they're also called "authoritarians".

Jeff -- 100% agree.

I have parents who, luckily, loved their children above & beyond giving a damn what some yentas had to say or being the big macher on the bema (sp?). Did it hurt them at first? Hell yes. Did I realize it? Hell no. Did it cause screaming fights, hysterics, threats & lots of second guessing on both sides? Yes. BUT we came to understand & respect each other with the help of wonderful orthodox (nowadays they would be termed 'black hat') Rabbi's with common sense & experience in the real world -- traits in Rabbi's which seem to be in short supply in certain communities these days.

Now the fallout, years later, to the surprise of my family is my husband is Belze. A rebel in some ways, but Belze in many more. We love each other, respect each other & he inspires me to be my best (& I think/hope vice-versa). His family loves me & I love them (& they are most certainly NOT rebels) & my family adores him ... but to this day I wonder if I would have met him or given him a chance if my parents had just closed the door on me. I don't think I would have turned to drugs or Alkeyhaul (went through that phase at the Bar Mitzvah blowouts & discovered, in horror, you could gain weight), but I would probably have been angry, had a chip on my shoulder & might have shunned all things "Jewish" & missed out on one of the most wonderful human beings, as well as some of my best friends, because of it.

So much is lost if doors are permanently closed. But, honestly, if your parents, siblings & grandparents would rather write you off than feel shame to have a 'cover your toes' tradition upheld or, worse, to keep you in a bad marriage where you are abused, neglected or just flat out miserable ... let me be the first to say: RUN! But, equally important to the equation once you get a handle on your situation, (to quote Train Spotters) "Choose Life!"

Mike

@ Jeff:

I believe I've spoken with you recently about the MO shifting to the off-the-deep-end right, and after this Passover, I'm going to actually have to agree with you on that the Modern Orthodoxy of Rav Soloveitchik is *virtually* gone. The only remainder is my grandfather, who was his student and is openly outspoken against the Lakewood and Monsey chumra machine.

There are so many I've met with radical opinions, I can't help but be depressed about the state of things.

As it relates to the post, it makes me happy to know that some women are fighting this battle, even if it is an uphill one. All the idiot trolls are missing a salient point. The husbands of these women systematically control these women because the entire Haredi doctrine obligates women to constantly serve and obey, the husbands's personality aside. He can be a saint or a scumbag and at the end of the day these women are still being controlled by the society as a whole.

ultra haredi lite

Bottom line all is fair in love and war - each side says what they want - no one fact checks - every blogger/spinmeister/opportunist will spin it to suit their agenda best.

American Jew

She seems to be a first class fraudster trying to capitilize on her misfortune caused by her own doings. She even refuses to get a Jewish GET unless she's paid an enomorous sum of blackmail money.

Prearanged, blah, blah foolish statements that nobody beleives, but as a journalist she likes to get the attention that she can't get otherwise.

Litvish

Posted by: groogle

Gey avek.

Yaakov

froogle:

You must not actually read what I write. Your characterization is bizarre. And, I don't think there is one person here, even who disagrees with me vehemently, who would say I ever troll. That's just absurd. I am the polar opposite of a troller.

groogle

Jeff - do gay men enjoy sex?

(Nobody else answer the question unless you are gay. I want to hear the answer from a gay man)

Gefilte Fish

WSC--- In reality, there are 10 types of people----those who understand binary and those who don't.

huhuggili

I am offensive and I find the above comments frum.

jancsibacsi

Litvish-I would say reboine dekula alma :))

Litvish

Give 'em a bit more rope and they'll all hang themselves.

Rabbinic Judaism just spawns more bearded wonders, those who say Pirkei Avos one moment and the next come to FM to satisfy their yetser horo.

They just have this tayve to come here. Is VIN not good enough?

Well, actually, it's about as exciting as the sex life of a typical haredi couple.

Even the Manhattan prostitutes have a haredi surcharge they are such lousy lays.

Imagine having sex with your grandfather dressed as an 18th century Polish nobleman.

And the stench.

Oy, don't get me started on the stench.

Raboyno shel oylem!!!

Jeff

This gay, divorced, hateful, angry, depressed, non-frumma troll goes by many names: APC, seymour, jancsipista, Jeff, Yakov, yassi, rebitzman, alter kocker, WSC, Litvish, Bassie, Ruthie, Shoshie, etc.

Posted by: groogle | April 15, 2012 at 07:56 PM

I take exception to that. I'm not divorced!

Jeff

Jeff -- I honestly don't know group statistics, that's why I said it's only my experience. But I do know that on my little block in South-Willi there are 3 known OTDs still living at home who 'change clothes' for crossing Broadway. One is a girl, 2 are boys, & their parents publicly support them. I'm sure there were lots of tears, fighting, threats, etc ... but when push came to shove they sided with their children over the bickering brothers in charge.

I suspect it's a rare phenomenon, Fred. Fundamentalists will nearly always side with the group or the authority figure to the extent of abandoning their children. That's the reason they're also called "authoritarians".

Now in the frum community that I fell out of grace with (& perhaps the MO, but I'm not as familiar with the politics, just the 5 Towns variety) over the past 20 years, I get the feeling that there's a need to be stricter, harsher, more observant ... almost as if they feel they're being questioned on their piety when placed side-to-side with the "ultimate" (in their eyes, quite possibly/ probably the Chassids).

This is what's happened to all of Orthodoxy. Under Haredi influence, it's moved inexorably to the right.

Steve K

Why can't there be a decent non abusive name calling discussion?
There are some very decent commenters from both sides that keep the debate civil and interesting.Notably, one of those,Mendy Hecht got the boot, for some minor infraction.

Is this site going to be a market place of ideas or just beneath the belt bashing and an online escape for people with personal issues?

Jeff

All the frumma trolls (probably the same asshole on this thread using different idiotic names) always have the same stupid retorts- "you need help", "you have low self esteem", "you are offensive", "you are a self-hating Jew", etc.

How ironic, because these are exactly the mental problems that frumma have.

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar | April 15, 2012 at 06:57 PM

WSC has given my response as well.

groogle

Have you noticed that the non-frumma trolls all say the same things, and always agree with each other. They always believe every spin that Shmarya creates, and will never ever have a nice word to say about people who don't agree with them. Sort of like a bunch of mind-controlled zombies. Hell - they could all be the same troll!

The frumma trolls on the other hand don't always agree with each other, and will sometimes argue bitterly (satmar vs zionists - as an example) you have litvish vs chasid, chabad vs everyone else, ger vs everyone else, satmar vs everyone else, NK vs everyone else. M.O. Vs haredi. Pro-fisher vs anti-fisher, pro-hikind vs anti-hikind. There is lots of diversity amongst the frumma trolls.

Amongst the non-frumma trolls - they're all divorced, gay, hates all things haredi, agrees with every rant of Shmarya (cognitive dissonance???) No matter how off-base shmarya is, and no matter how much the facts prove shmarya wrong, there is not a thing right with haredim, ever! This gay, divorced, hateful, angry, depressed, non-frumma troll goes by many names: APC, seymour, jancsipista, Jeff, Yakov, yassi, rebitzman, alter kocker, WSC, Litvish, Bassie, Ruthie, Shoshie, etc.

Shmarya

Not surprisingly, Dave, Sick of Crazies, Know Fraidy, and 800 Mohel are all the same person.

That's called sockpuppeting.

And it just got you banned.

Rebitzman

@WoolSilkCotton

Ruthie, the frumma trolls here are too stupid to realize how typical they sound.

Sadly, many those of the opposite ilk aren't sounding a lot more intelligent in this thread.

Asking you, because you've been here a long time and I respect your opinion...........

How is being vulgar and denigrating of and toward an entire group of people, the majority of whom are "it" because they genuinely feel it is the best way they can honor God, and who are every bit the victims of their own leadership as are the people they (the leaders) defraud, abuse, steal from........ Productive in sharing them the flaws of their leadership?

From where I am sitting, it would seem to me to serve only to make them circle the wagons and close their minds - or the exact opposite of what might be productive.

WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar

Ruthie, the frumma trolls here are too stupid to realize how typical they sound.

Fred

I will say it takes parents, sometimes grandparents & friends who love the children MORE than they love being a bigshot macher in the Shul/ Beis Midrash or group approval.

And how often does that happen?

Jeff -- I honestly don't know group statistics, that's why I said it's only my experience. But I do know that on my little block in South-Willi there are 3 known OTDs still living at home who 'change clothes' for crossing Broadway. One is a girl, 2 are boys, & their parents publicly support them. I'm sure there were lots of tears, fighting, threats, etc ... but when push came to shove they sided with their children over the bickering brothers in charge.

Now in the frum community that I fell out of grace with (& perhaps the MO, but I'm not as familiar with the politics, just the 5 Towns variety) over the past 20 years, I get the feeling that there's a need to be stricter, harsher, more observant ... almost as if they feel they're being questioned on their piety when placed side-to-side with the "ultimate" (in their eyes, quite possibly/ probably the Chassids). And this crackdown & moving farther & farther right (IIRC, someone on this blog mentioned that their mother is Orthodox but as things moved rightward, she stayed the same, she is now viewed as MO) has strained a lot of things. Families have to make a choice ... & if they are siding with crazy hashkafahs over their children's health & happiness, the backlash will, eventually, come back to bite them. It happened in shtetls in Europe, & it will happen here. I just feel for the children caught in the middle who aren't complacent, the ones who have questions, aspirations or just aren't cut out for a frum lifestyle. Oddly, I also feel badly for their families too (though, from what I've read in several blogs & news stories not all families deserve this sympathy).

BUT AGAIN, this is a small group & this is only my experience ... a lot of other people may have very different experiences.

 ruthie

Posted by: 800 mohel | April 15, 2012 at 07:00 PM


honestly! that's how people who are a bit different and strong minded are spoken about by jealous mediocre neighbors ALL THE TIME. good morning!

Shoshi

Heh--At first I thought the photo of Fraidy Reiss was a "before" picture, because her hair is so dark and thick it looks like a sheitel and she is wearing such heavy makeup and that buttoned-up long-sleeve shirt.

800 mohel

This lady was treated like a queen I ate by her house more than a few times
All she did was curse rabbonim while her husband was sitting quietly embarrassed or sometimes he joined in with her or against her .
No matter which side he would take he was always respectful of her .
He is known as a man ready to help anyone , while she is known as a fowl mouthed piece of garbage.
Her husband was always the life of the party , while she was always the vomit at the end.
Anyone who knows her and her husband knows that it's all a lie
She is an evil person , very very few people like that , pure evil.
The only thing her husband has bad is his taste women.
Her in laws created a life dedicated to others
She used to yell and scream in that house all the time they never said one word , I was there .they accepted her as is , this bile piece of trash.
Her mother and siblings are the nicest people around .
Tge only true thing is that her father is terrible and made her mother suffer.
This women is one of the most depressed ,angry , ugly people I have ever met

WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar

All the frumma trolls (probably the same asshole on this thread using different idiotic names) always have the same stupid retorts- "you need help", "you have low self esteem", "you are offensive", "you are a self-hating Jew", etc.

How ironic, because these are exactly the mental problems that frumma have.

Rebitzman

Why do you need to use abusive language and name calling?

I live in a community that I believe to be under attack by the enethical practices and lies of Chabad. I further feel that if any group chooses to set itself morally abovell others,there are blighted tract as though they are, and when they fail to do so AND justify those failures it is an embarrassment to all Jews. I find their contention that they represent "true Torah Judaism" to be offensive, and their open contempt for anyone who does observe EXCACTLY as they do o be moreso. And I find the race between the various Haredim groups to see who can be more "observant" (with garbage such as Glatt kosher salmon......) to be an open violation of Jewish Law.

And I greatly appreciate this site in its steps to keep them honest, but.......

But in spite of all that, I really would like an answer to your question, because I am afraid I don't understand how crawling into the sewer with the rats makes you better than the rats.

groogle

Jeff,

Do you have self esteem issues? Your manner of speaking presents with very low self esteem.

You may want to speak to a doctor.

Sol

Jeff, rock on I love your comments!

Jeff

Shmarya, they're beginning to talk to me the way they do to you. I think I feel flattered.

Do I get a key to the executive washroom?

jancsibacsi

trader-Did it occur to you that poeple like youreself who see jeff as deranged are the real deranged one

WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar

I find comments by frumma to be extremely offensive.

trader

Unfortunately, Jeff appears to be quite deranged. I hope he gets help soon.

Steve K

Jeff,
I find your comments to be extremely offensive.
Why do you need to use abusive language and name calling?
Has it anything to do with projection or self esteem issues?
You won't win any debates with those tactics

WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar

There are 2 kinds of people: Those who say there are 2 kinds of people, and those who don't.

Sol

Posted by litvish:

37% of Chabadniks believe the rebbe commutes between his Ohel and the long Island Jewish Cemetery via a sled pulled by reindeer

It is 38% douche bag, like if anyone gives a damm.

Sol

Litvish, gevezener chusid. Stop with your out of ass studies, for you are filling our brains with pure bull shit .

Yoel Mechanic

One more important Stat (that is true!)

If your parents didn't have children, there is a high probability that you won't either.

jancsibacsi

Gevezener Chusid-USE YOURE NOODLES A BISSEL SAYHEL,YOU DONT SEE HE IS OBVIOUSLY MAKING THIS UP ITS A JOKE EVEN I SEE IT:))

Litvish

Posted by: Eli, what me messiah?
====
Thanks for lightening things up here a bit.

Some more stats:

37% of Chabadniks believe the rebbe commutes between his Ohel and the long Island Jewish Cemetery via a sled pulled by reindeer

23% of Satmar would become a Jehovah's Witness if the pay were OK and they could keep all receipts for peddling Awake! magazine.

76% of all FM readers get stoned, stinking drunk and watch hot channy porno on VIN after eating shabbos cholent.

98% of rebbes have a shabbos goy to set fire to the homes of rebellious souls on shabbos and shmini atzeres.


Dr. Dave

This is neither here nor there, but I think that she is beautiful.

Posted by: Michael from Lakewood | April 15, 2012 at 01:09 PM

I don't know about beautiful, but to quote Springsteen:

"Show a little faith, there's magic in the night
You aint a beauty, but hey you're alright"

The comments to this entry are closed.

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