D.A. Again Admits He Grants Haredi Perps Blanket Protection From Media Scrutiny

“The circumstances here are unique. Because all of the requested defendant names relate to Hasidic men who are alleged to have committed sex crimes against Hasidic victims within a very tight-knit and insular Brooklyn community, there is a significant danger that the disclosure of the defendants’ names would lead members of that community to discern the identities of the victims.”

The Brooklyn D.A., Charles Hynes

Paul Berger reports for the Forward:

Orthodox Jews charged with child sex abuse in Brooklyn should have their identities protected because of the community’s “tight-knit and insular” nature, prosecutors claim in a remarkable response to demands for information about the cases.

Rejecting a Forward request under the state’s Freedom of Information Law, the Brooklyn district attorney made the startling claim that Orthodox Jews deserve a blanket exemption from the usual public disclosure rules. Prosecutors claimed that Orthodox Jews are “unique” in that releasing the names of suspects would allow others in the community to identify their victims.

“The circumstances here are unique,” Assistant District Attorney Morgan Dennehy wrote in an April 16 letter to the Forward. “Because all of the requested defendant names relate to Hasidic men who are alleged to have committed sex crimes against Hasidic victims within a very tight-knit and insular Brooklyn community, there is a significant danger that the disclosure of the defendants’ names would lead members of that community to discern the identities of the victims.”

Although Brooklyn District Attorney Charles Hynes has long resisted requests to identify Orthodox sex suspects, the letter is believed to represent the first time his office spelled out why it specifically singled them out for preferential treatment.…

Actually, Hynes' office has consistently refused to release these names and has consistently said the reason for that refusal is that releasing the names of the defendants or the guilty would, because of the nature of the haredi community, expose the victims, and this reasoning has been attacked by legal experts, victims and advocates. The Jewish Week has published on this as has the Guardian, and CBS did a story on it, as well.

In other words, the Forward doesn't really have a scoop here. In fact, other journalists even got the same FOIL denial letter as you'll probably see later today, and the Forward surely knew that before this story was posted.

The Forwward cannot even claim this is the first time Hynes put his position in writing, because his office has written emails to journalists containing this argument, and they have used those quotes in their reports.

I should also note that Berger – ever the rocket scientist – wrote the following without any clarification:

Dennehy also claimed that revealing the names of abuse suspects could harm the operation of the DA’s special hotline, Kol Tzedek, or Voice of Justice…

That there is a haredi victims' advocacy organization called Voice of Justice is something Berger should have told his readers so that it is not confused with the DA's Kol Tzedek hotline.

True to form, Berger did not do it.

Comments

[Dan]

Doesn't matter if the Forward broke new ground. Eventually, maybe, there will be enough outrage from this that good citizens will recall the DA. Can't happen soon enough.

[PulpitRabbi]

Actually, the whole practice is barbaric. In many other countries, innocent until proven guilty means that the names of alleged criminals are kept under wraps until a court case is well under way, or even until a conviction.

It would be really just if not only Haredim enjoy this protection, but all accused of all creeds and ethnicities. The courts are in charge of punishing the guilty, and since the Middle Ages we are meant to have moved away from mob justice, so there is no need for the public to know prematurely.

[jewishwhistleblower]

Abuse survivors and their advocates should make formal written civil rights violation complaints against the Brooklyn DA ond his office: Civil Rights Division
U.S. Department of Justice
950 Pennsylvania Ave., NW
Washington, D.C. 20530

[jewishwhistleblower]

Brooklyn is the only jurisdiction in the world that openly acknowledges that in order for a pedophile to have their identity protected from public disclosure all they need to do is be either a member of the Catholic clergy or affiliated with the Orthodox Jewish community. This is outrageous.

[jewishwhistleblower]

I suggest ethics complaints be filed with the NY State Bar Association again Hynes and others:
Kings, Queens and Richmond Counties:
Grievance Committee for the Second and Eleventh Judicial Districts
Renaissance Plaza
335 Adams Street, Suite 2400
Brooklyn, NY 11201-3745
(718) 923-6300

[jewishwhistleblower]

Hynes has been protecting Orthodox pedophiles for decades. Rabbi Yehuda Kolko got the same deal Rabbi Lewis/Lipa Brenner got a decade earlier, no jail time and their names were not put on the public sex offender registry.

[Deb]

Actually, the whole practice is barbaric. In many other countries, innocent until proven guilty means that the names of alleged criminals are kept under wraps until a court case is well under way, or even until a conviction.

It would be really just if not only Haredim enjoy this protection, but all accused of all creeds and ethnicities. The courts are in charge of punishing the guilty, and since the Middle Ages we are meant to have moved away from mob justice, so there is no need for the public to know prematurely.

Posted by: PulpitRabbi | April 24, 2012 at 09:22 AM

How true. Too many people's lives are destroyed by the allegation which is not corrected by an innocent verdict.

This country is run by the media and they yield all the power. They are not hampered by the laws of the land and are running amuck under the guise of "the public's right to know". I believe that the public has the right to know, but only if its truth has been established and therefore will not harm the innocent.

[jewishwhistleblower]

Deb and PulpitRabbi, why should 85 Orthodox Jews arrested on sex crimes charges in Brooklyn since 2008 be allowed to remain anonymous even after some have been convicted?

[Bas Melech]

The DA is not interested in protecting the victims. If he were, the guilty would get harsher sentences.

[jewishwhistleblower]

Has their been even one Orthodox survivor of abuse that has been convicted of making false allegations against even one member of the Brooklyn Orthodox community? You are defending the anonymity of pedophiles at the expense of their past, present and future victims/survivors.

[jewishwhistleblower]

>The DA is not interested in protecting
>the victims.
The DA is only interested in his deal with the Catholic Church, Satmar and Agudath Israel to keep Orthodox Jews and Catholic clergy pedophiles out of the public eye and out of jail.

[lionking]

henna white and the da need to be removed from office

aguda and ohel must not be allowed to counsel molesters

the fox in the hen house
or the fox in hennas house ( pun intended

[jewishwhistleblower]

We need to identify the Hynes 85. See my list:
http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2011/12/brookyn-das-coverup-begins-to-unravel-345.html

[Jefferson]

OK people I'm going to have to knock some common sense into this conversation.

While it's a good idea to identify those CONVICTED of this crime, it is a terrible idea to identify those merely ACCUSED of the crime.

The reason? In this particular situation, merely being accused of the crime, even if you are vindicated in court completely, will ruin your life forever.

I don't want to live in a country where someone with a vendetta against his neighbor can smear his name in the paper and ruin his life with one simple accusation.

If you can prove his guilt in front of an impartial judge or jury, by all means let it be known. But being accused of a crime does not make you guilty, and does not make you deserving of the punishment of having a damaged reputation for life.

[Kloinemus Kalmen]

Actually there were false allegations in the case of burich Leibovitz, they tried to extort money from his family.

[dh]

jewishwhistleblower, you do good by your moniker. To kvetch is one thing, but you go beyond, and I, for one, really appreciate it.

So what's the problem? Since the DA says they are so insular, just publish the names in the Times. They are so insular they won't even read it.

What a helping hand this DA is to monsters. To help them and give them a leg up (pardon the expression) to go after more unsuspecting and trusting prey. AAAAh, the criminal justice system, it's a marvel.

[Deb]

Deb and PulpitRabbi, why should 85 Orthodox Jews arrested on sex crimes charges in Brooklyn since 2008 be allowed to remain anonymous even after some have been convicted?

Posted by: jewishwhistleblower | April 24, 2012 at 10:31 AM

I have no problems with identifying the ones who were found to be guilty.

I would assume that the guilty ones would have by now gotten their names registered as sex offender and hence public.

[jewishwhistleblower]

No Deb, they register on the non-public portion of the sex offender registry like Rabbi Lewis/Lipa Brenner did.

[jewishwhistleblower]

As to Leibovitz, google Shmarya's interview with Leibovitz's P.I. Joe Levine.

[jewishwhistleblower]

>Deb, they register on the non-public
>portion of the sex offender registry
>like Rabbi Lewis/Lipa Brenner did.
This is how Hynes protects the pedophiles.

[jewishwhistleblower]

>even if you are vindicated in court

Can you name one actual case of a false allegation where there was a conviction of a "false" survivor? I can't. Try to stick to facts and reality. It will help the discussion.

[jewishwhistleblower]

>Can you name one actual case of a
>false allegation where there was a
>conviction of a "false" survivor? I
>can't.
To be clear: Name one in the Orthodox community.

[jewishwhistleblower]

Of 85 arrested alleged Orthodox pedophiles arrested in Brooklyn, 75-80 of them are walking the streets without DA publicity or requirement to be on the public sex offender registry.

[jewishwhistleblower]

Clearly Orthodox pedophiles are being protected not the Orthodox children of Brooklyn.

[jewishwhistleblower]

Deb stop assuming. You are wrong. In an above link I've listed all Orthodox sex offenders on the public registry in Brooklyn.

[jewishwhistleblower]

Leibovitz: failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2011/08/abuses-345.html

[Deb]

Of 85 arrested alleged Orthodox pedophiles arrested in Brooklyn, 75-80 of them are walking the streets without DA publicity or requirement to be on the public sex offender registry.

Posted by: jewishwhistleblower | April 24, 2012 at 01:15 PM

Were these 85 arrests or 85 convictions.

[jewishwhistleblower]

>Were these 85 arrests or 85 convictions.
Deb, do you find it unnecessary to read the above linked Forward article?

[Deb]

>Were these 85 arrests or 85 convictions.
Deb, do you find it unnecessary to read the above linked Forward article?

Posted by: jewishwhistleblower | April 24, 2012 at 01:33 PM

So 85 were arrested of whom 14 were convicted.

[jewishwhistleblower]

>So 85..
So either the DA's office is completely inept or they are "fixing" cases to protect the pedophiles.

[jewishwhistleblower]

And that's if we can believe the DA's statistics when we see 2 posts above this that he has "manipulated"/lied about other statistics.

[jewishwhistleblower]

>That there is a haredi victims'
>advocacy organization called Voice
Registered as "Kol Tzedek-Voice of Justice" in 2003.

[Kloinemus Kalmen]

What are you trying to prove? Boruchs lawyer making his own assumptions? innocent until proven guilty.

[PulpitRabbi]

@jewuishwistleblower, why do you assume (against what I wrote), that I am trying to shield some Orthodox accused sexual abuser? My argument is that all people, of all creeds and ethnicities (as I wrote), accused of all crimes, should, as a matter of standard policies, have their identity protected until a court rules that they are guilty or that in that particular instance there is an immediate threat to the public.

My position is neither specifically about sexual abuse allegations nor about Orthodox arrestees. It's a function of (a) the idea that one is innocent until proven guilty, and (b) the realization that in the internet age, information published in whatever obscure manner will soon be totally public.

[jewishwhistleblower]

PulpitRabbi, your position protects and shields the pedophiles who want these protections. Once an arrest is made it should be public record.

[jewishwhistleblower]

Kloinemus Kalmen, reread the linked articles. What does his paid PI say about the allegation he is a molester?

[jewishwhistleblower]

So PulpitRabbi we let accused pedophiles roam the streets freely for the 2 to 4 years it takes to get to trial without notice to the community?

[jewishwhistleblower]

Clearly you have little concern for protecting Jewish children from these 85 alleged and arrested pedophiles.

[jewishwhistleblower]

It's very rare for a false allegation to be made of child sexual molestation. Even rarer in the Orthodox community. Let's stick to facts and to reality.

[The voice of justice]

shmayra thanks for spelling out the difference between voj and kol tzedek

"we will continue to fight for a true and honest justice system for all"

[Wigmore]

I suggest ethics complaints be filed with the NY State Bar Association again Hynes and others:
Kings, Queens and Richmond Counties:
Grievance Committee for the Second and Eleventh Judicial Districts
Renaissance Plaza
335 Adams Street, Suite 2400
Brooklyn, NY 11201-3745
(718) 923-6300

Posted by: jewishwhistleblower | April 24, 2012 at 09:52 AM

That's not the Bar Association but the Appellate Division of State Supreme Court.

Which rules specifically of the RPC do you allege Hynes has violated?

[Deb]

It's very rare for a false allegation to be made of child sexual molestation. Even rarer in the Orthodox community. Let's stick to facts and to reality.

Posted by: jewishwhistleblower | April 24, 2012 at 03:40 PM

Interesting, guilty until proven innocent.

[danny]

Sorry Pulpit Rabbi. That is not how the justice system works.

All trials MUST be open and public, in order for potential witnesses and other victims to be part of the proceedings. This is a bedrock of our system.

[dh]

Wigmore, my good man, I think that in NY the Appellate Division receives complaints about the bar.

And Deb, in the USA an accused defendant is never found "innocent ", only not guilty.

[Deb]

And Deb, in the USA an accused defendant is never found "innocent ", only not guilty.

Posted by: dh | April 24, 2012 at 10:32 PM

All the more reason why he should not be paraded about like a guilty person for even if a verdict of "not guilty" is declared he will never return to the state of innocent. i.e. there will always be that cloud of "yeh, he was found to be not guilty but I think maybe he did do it but they couldn't pin it on him".

If this country would only have true speedy trials then it wont be such a big deal to hold back the dogs (media) until the trial is over and if he is found to be guilty then sick the media on him.

Another thing to remember is that in most cases the media will report when one is arrested but will NOT report if one is found not guilty, unless it has some entertainment value. This means that to the public the guilty status remains even if there is a ruling of not guilty.

If the public has a "right" to know that a person was arrested for a crime then they have that same "right" to know if he was exonerated.

[jewishwhistleblower]

The state does not exonerate people nor does it find them innocent. Guilt in a criminal court is a concept that only relates to whether the state has met a high burden of proof so that the state can remove certain freedoms. A not-guilty finding does not mean that the person is fit to work with children or is innocent, just that the state has not met the evidentiary burden.

[jewishwhistleblower]

Criminal conviction is irrelevant. Mondorowitz has no criminal conviction nor does Sobel nor do dozens of other alleged pedophiles in the Jewish clergy thanks to outdated limitation period legislation. Few clergy accused of abuse do. Of the 5,600 publicly accused Roman Catholic Priests, Nuns, Brothers,
Deacons, and Seminarians in the United States virtually none of them have been ever charged criminally or have even been investigated by the criminal authorities
see: http://www.bishop-accountability.org/db_overview.htm

[jewishwhistleblower]

But of course Deb you and PulpitRabbi would allow these 5,600 publicly accused clergy their anonymity and allow them to continue in their activites claiming principles such as "innocent until proven guilty" knowing that limitation periods prevent any criminal investigation. Fortunately, neither halacha nor the public school system agree with your indifference to the protection of children from pedophiles.

[Deb]

Fortunately, neither halacha nor the public school system agree with your indifference to the protection of children from pedophiles.

Posted by: jewishwhistleblower | April 25, 2012 at 08:30 AM

So I guess it is ok to sacrifice the few who may be innocent. As Mr Spock would say "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". I say since most are guilty why bother with the costs of a trial, throw them right to jail after all most are guilty!

My personal feeling is that you do not send out to the world at large anyone who you truly believe is a pedophile without a GPS tracker. This way if a child is assaulted you would be able to see with certainty if he was at the scene of the abuse. Also with a GPS tracker the authorities can track someone who ventures where he is not allowed to go like a children's playground or a school.

The technology is there it is time that it be used.

[jewishwhistleblower]

1) The technology is ineffective and expensive.
2) You have yet to demonstate one case in the Orthodox community of an innocent falsely accused.
3) Most alleged unconvicted rabbinic Orthodox pedophiles I know of are thriving despite the allegations.

[jewishwhistleblower]

Just so that there is no confusion, in this day and age our religious courts do not have the power to put pedophiles to death. So we turn such people over to the secular authorities. When our religious courts do have such power we try such people, convict them and put them to death.

Even if there is insufficient evidence to convict, if the person is a menace such as a pedophile, a proper bais din would declare such a person a danger, lock him up and feed him oats until his stomach explodes and he dies.

That is our religion's attitude towards pedophiles. That is what Judaism stands for. Anyone who believes otherwise has the wrong religion.

[jewishwhistleblower]

Just to be clear any tracking device can be disabled and it does not take a pedophile long to find another victim.

[Shmarya]

Posted by: jewishwhistleblower | April 25, 2012 at 11:41 AM

JWB, you're wrong.

Pedophilia – unless it involves penetration (and then only in certain cases) – does **not** carry the death penalty.

A beit din can impose a jail sentence and can impose other punishments not specifically called for in the Torah, such as lashes and fines, to punish pedophiles.

But there is no blanket death penalty for pedophilia.

[jewishwhistleblower]

You are correct about penetration. But its academic anyway as this is typically a crime without witnesses. There is no reason a pedophile can not be locked up and fed oats until his/her stomach explodes and he/she dies.

[Shmarya]

There is no reason a pedophile can not be locked up and fed oats until his/her stomach explodes and he/she dies.

Posted by: jewishwhistleblower | April 25, 2012 at 12:19 PM

Sure there is.

The feeding oats trick was used by batei din when they knew the defendant was really guilty of a capital crime, but there were not kosher witnesses to it or when the mandated warning was not properly issued or not issued at all.

It really wasn't used to punish a defendant with death who had not committed a capital crime (but who had committed a crime but the witnesses were not kosher or there was a problem with the mandated warning).

Batei din simply imprisoned those 'lesser' criminals, lashed them and/or fined them.

[jewishwhistleblower]

I'm going to defer to you as I don't have the time or inclination to research the point. But recently Rabbi Elkohen discussed a psak in the Nahalaot Orthodox pedophile ring scandal that a sefer Torah commissioned by the alleged ringleader of the gang (not indicted yet) should be burned (and it was) as a pedophile is a heretic.

[jewishwhistleblower]

Whether the feeding oats trick can be used on a heretic, I will leave to you and others.

[jewishwhistleblower]

I also agree with Rabbi Eidensohn that "a Jewish heretic is not considered a part of the Jewish people and he is never accepted back even if repents" and that we treat a sexual offender the same.

[Shmarya]

Rabbi Elkohen discussed a psak in the Nahalaot Orthodox pedophile ring scandal that a sefer Torah commissioned by the alleged ringleader of the gang (not indicted yet) should be burned (and it was) as a pedophile is a heretic.

Posted by: jewishwhistleblower | April 25, 2012 at 01:25 PM

Well, the rabbis in question forgot to tell people that according to their halakhic logic, every person who violates commandments he knows exist is a heretic.

So that sefer Torah should have been burned if a thief donated it or a Shabbos violator donated it.

But I doubt the rabbi in question of Elkonnen would pasken that it should be burned in those cases.

[Shmarya]

I also agree with Rabbi Eidensohn that "a Jewish heretic is not considered a part of the Jewish people and he is never accepted back even if repents" and that we treat a sexual offender the same.

Posted by: jewishwhistleblower | April 25, 2012 at 01:28 PM

I'm happy that you agree with an extreme halakhic ruling that would see tens or hundreds of thousands of nice, honest, but avowedly secular Jews written out of the Jewish people.

You can be consoled, however, by the expulsion of the much smaller number of pedophiles that would happen with it.

[jewishwhistleblower]

Give me a break the people you are referring to aren't real heretics at best they may have the status of a Tinok shenishba.

[Shmarya]

Give me a break the people you are referring to aren't real heretics at best they may have the status of a Tinok shenishba.

Posted by: jewishwhistleblower | April 25, 2012 at 01:46 PM

You don't understand the pesak.

A heretic is someone who knows a halakha prohibits him from doing something but he does it anyway because he rejects the idea that God gave the halakha to us or that God gave us the Torah or that rabbis can decide halakha, etc.

If a pedophile is a heretic than a thief is a heretic and former Orthodox Jews are heretics. And so are knowledgeable non-observant Jews.

Is a masturbater a heretic?

If he isn't, why is a pedophile?

Is a rapist a heretic?

If he isn't, why is a pedophile?

[jewishwhistleblower]

“Where there's a rabbinic will, there's
a halachic way.” Pedophilia is a different sort of crime then the rest that you have mentioned.

[Shmarya]

“Where there's a rabbinic will, there's
a halachic way.” Pedophilia is a different sort of crime then the rest that you have mentioned.

Posted by: jewishwhistleblower | April 25, 2012 at 02:03 PM

Just so you realize how intellectually dishonest these rabbis are, think about this:

If a man rapes a 9-year-old girl, his halakhic penalty is that he has to marry her (if she's take him as a husband) or he has to pay damages. This is a clear halakha. No death penalty. No oats, etc.

But if a man *fondles* a 9-year-old boy, you want him ruled a heretic.

Worse yet, you believe the man who raped the girl is also a heretic –EVEN THOUGH THE TORAH DISAGREES WITH YOU.

Explain that.

[Jeff]

I also agree with Rabbi Eidensohn that "a Jewish heretic is not considered a part of the Jewish people and he is never accepted back even if repents"... .

Posted by: jewishwhistleblower | April 25, 2012 at 01:28 PM

JWB, you actually agree with this?

[Deb]

1) The technology is ineffective and expensive.

Posted by: jewishwhistleblower | April 25, 2012 at 11:33 AM

It is very effective. My family has iPhone 4S and we have an app called "Find iPhone". It works like a charm and is extremely accurate so the technology works. One does not need the whole iPhone for GPS tracking I am sure that having just the GPS portion would cost a fraction of the cost of the iPhone. For goodness sake they have dog GPS colors for $99 w/$7.95 per month for the service.

http://www.pettracker.com

Product Description
The First Pet master kit allows you to use GPS to track your pet’s location from your computer or mobile device 24 hours a day. If your pet strays from your Tagg zone, the Tagg system alerts you by email or text message. Use the interactive map to locate your lost pet and bring him home. The master kit comes with everything you need to get started.

[Deb]

Make that

they have dog GPS collars

[jewishwhistleblower]

GPS collars don't stop someone from inviting someone in and assaulting/killing them (paperboy/girl).

[jewishwhistleblower]

Shmarya, I'm not going to get into a long debate and discussion as to the difficulties in the Torah you point out. I do believe we have tools to declare certain people menaces and heretics.

[Shmarya]

Menaces, yes; heretics, no.

[jewishwhistleblower]

Jeff, I believe a Rabbi Kolko or a Rabbi Pinter is a heretic and a menace. I do not believe the same of a masturbater or former Orthodox Jews.

[jewishwhistleblower]

There are many difficulties in the torah such as the ability to take women as the spoils of war. One has to look at the giving of the Torah, when it was given, the form it was given in and the nature of the people at the time. I'll let more knowledgable people tackle those issues.

[jewishwhistleblower]

>If a man rapes a 9-year-old girl, his
>halakhic penalty is that he has to
>marry her ...
Yet this does not happen today in any mainstream Orthodox/Charedi community.

[Jeff]

Jeff, I believe a Rabbi Kolko or a Rabbi Pinter is a heretic and a menace. I do not believe the same of a masturbater or former Orthodox Jews.

Posted by: jewishwhistleblower | April 26, 2012 at 02:09 PM

JWB, I've been declared an apikorus by a Modern Orthodox rabbi. He's told me I'm knowledgeable enough to know what it is I'm denying, and he acknowledges that I genuinely don't believe. He's told me he can't count me for a minyan, and he's the most liberal MO rabbi we have here in Boston, the closest we come to an Avi Weiss kind of guy. I'm literally the only person to whom he' s ever said this in his forty-year rabbinic career.

I also meet at least one of the criteria for each of the Rambam's categories of heretic - apikorus, kofer and min - and under a couple of those headings, I meet more than one.

So am I no longer a Jew, and is it too late for me to repent?

[jewishwhistleblower]

I believe I've already answered that. It is too late for a pedophile or a career criminal but not for you.

[jewishwhistleblower]

During his life the Rambam was condemned as a heretic.

[Shmarya]

JWB –

No one, not even a rabbi, can simply decide that people who do X sin are heretics but people who do Y sin are not unless those sins have already been labeled heresy by the Torah or halakha.

Heresy is a very specific thing, an active denial of God that involves actions which oppose his existence.

Violating Shabbos in and of itself is not heresy, but doing so because you reject God or reject the concept of Shabbos or reject the concept of divine creation is heresy.

In the same way, someone who steals or murders because he rejects God or halakha is a heretic, but most thieves and murderers do not reject this and therefore are not heretics.

You want pedophiles to be labeled heretics because to you they are like murderers – but murderers are not automatically heretics in halakha, so what you want makes no halakhic sense!

Past that, as I noted above, rapists are not heretics according to the Torah and halakha, and they are not punished with death. But heretics are.

You can't simply say you believe pedophiles are heretics unless you also say you believe rapists – which by the Torah's definition includes people we today label pedophiles – are heretics.

But you can't say rapists are heretics because the Torah specifically does NOT make that claim, and neither does halakha. You can't add a prohibition that isn't already there.

You need to stop misusing spiritual and halakhic terms to make your points.

Pedophilia is a crime whether or not the Torah specifically classifies it as such.

When an individual act of pedophilia is specifically prohibited by the Torah or by halakha, it is forbidden to do it for that reason. When it isn't prohibited in that way it is prohibited by halakha because of dina d'malchuta dina and because pedophilia is proven to seriously injure victims, and is therefore prohibited just like any other physical assault is.

That's how it works.

And any rabbi who labels pedophiles heretics can also label masturbators heretics or women who wear shorts heretics.

And the sooner you learn that, the better.

[jewishwhistleblower]

I can't speak as to your knowledge or your Rabbi's or what you believe in your heart. But if you truly were a apikorus I would imagine you would have no difficulty going around and hurting others like Ravs Kolko and Pinter do.

[jewishwhistleblower]

>Heresy is a very specific thing, an
>active denial of God that involves
>actions which oppose his existence
In my humble opinion, take it for what it is worth, that characterizes pedophiles and career criminals (Kolko/Pinter). Their actions speak louder then their words.

[Shmarya]

The problem is that halakha doesn't automatically label career criminals heretics.

And at any rate, what about career masturbators or women who habitually wear shorts?

What you're really saying is that identifiably religious people who habitually sin are heretics. Find halakhic sources to back that up and you might have a case.

[Jeff]

But if you truly were a apikorus I would imagine you would have no difficulty going around and hurting others like Ravs Kolko and Pinter do.

Well, there are people who participate on this blog who would tell you that's precisely the sort of person I am! Fortunately, however, I am not molesting children (or adults) - I'm just a general-purpose misanthrope!

In any case -

Heresy is a very specific thing, an active denial of God that involves actions which oppose his existence.

Violating Shabbos in and of itself is not heresy, but doing so because you reject God or reject the concept of Shabbos or reject the concept of divine creation is heresy.

This describes me quite accurately.

I guess I'm beyond redemption. That's fine, but what I really wanted, before the door closed once and for all, was to be called a "rasha". I've been trying, but I can't seem to get the frummies here to do that.

I'm disappointed, guys. You've all let me down.

(Oh, JWB - if you were to tell me I'm going to an eternal, Christian-style hell, that would REALLY make my day - seriously. My nephew, the little Lubavitcher, keeps telling me Jews don't have such a concept, and I keep sending him example after example of frum Jews telling me just that, yet he refuses to budge. If he responds at all, he tells me it's just the frum people I meet online, or that it's the other Hasidic groups but not Chabad - which, of course, is the only "real" Yiddishkeit left - so now I just like to send him this stuff to antagonize him. I get so little pleasure out of life.

So if you could threaten me with eternal damnation, you'd really be helping me out. Thanks, man!)

[jewishwhistleblower]

Sorry, Jeff, but unlike Kolko and Pinter you probably still have a chelek in the next world. Sorry to disappoint you.

[Jeff]

That is very disappointing.

Perhaps I can auction it off on eBay.

[Jeff]

Although I can at least tell him you think those other guys are going to hell, so it hasn't been a total loss!