A Question Of Circumcision And Public Health

Babies have died from Herpes transmitted to them from metzitzah b'peh (MBP), the direct oral-to-genital sucking of babies' bleeding circumcision wounds done by haredi mohels. Other babies have been sickened and brain damaged. And all who survive carry the Herpes infection for life and will transmit it to others. Health departments oppose the practice as do pediatric infectious disease specialists and other physicians (with the exception of a haredi doctor who is a medical outlier and who is at any rate dishonest). Even so, New York State, New Jersey, New York City and Rockland County have not banned MBP. My question to you is…

…why?

New York's Governor Andrew Cuomo met with haredi leaders two months ago to discuss MBP. But he refuses to release any information about that meeting. We know the haredi leaders want to keep MBP just as it is. We don't know what Cuomo said, but we know he has done nothing to protect haredi infants since then.

NYC's mayor, Michael Bloomberg, continues to ban smoking on the streets of NYC and push for other unpopular public health measures. Yet even though he briefly acted tough when news leaked earlier this year that another baby had died from MBP, he has remained silent since and has done nothing to limit or regulate, let alone ban, MBP.

New Jersey – which does not mandate reporting of Herpes infections in infants – has done nothing to regulate or ban MBP either, and its governor, Chris Christie, has been uncharacteristically silent.

Why? Why are all these politicians ignoring the best medical advice and the best public health advice the world has to offer?

My answer to that question comes in two parts:

1. Haredi bloc voting at the direction of their rabbinic leadership.

2. No demand from any constituency to stop MBP. Unlike smoking, which has advocates who support its ban, rank and file New Yorkers who demand it. But MBP has no advocates seeking to ban it or regulate it, save for public health officials – who work for the politicians and who must answer to them.

Rank and file haredim are silent, even though their own children are dying. Centrist and Modern Orthodox Jews are silent because they don't want to appear to be working against brit milah, the biblical command to circumcise male Jewish children. Non-Orthodox Jews and secular Jews are also silent, ignoring the evils of the haredi world, content that it is not directly impacting them. Am I my brother's keeper? When the brother in question is a voiceless, weak, haredi infant, the answer in the Federations and temples of American Judaism is, "no."

This silence facilitates political corruption and that political corruption allows more haredi babies to be sickened, maimed and killed in the name of God.

Every Jew who remains silent and allows MBP to continue unchallenged is guilty of standing by the blood of their brothers.

And that holds true even if speaking out might get their kids tossed out of their yeshiva or might dim their children's marriage prospects. Your children's blood is not redder than the blood of those infected infants.

Jews, you need to act.

If you don't, more kids will be sickened. Some will be maimed and others will die.

The choice – and the responsibility – it yours. Act on it.

Comments

[Yaakov]

Shmarya:

Who is most likely to act and be effective concerning this. The best I can do, so far as I can see, is provide what little money I can afford, and some letter writing.

If there was an organization to coordinate…

[Yaakov]

That first sentence should be interrogative. Who can do this?

[MoishieCohen]

2. No demand from any constituency to stop MBP

That is the main reason IMO. The politicians probably think 'If the Jews don't care about it, why should we?'

And all who survive carry the Herpes infection for life and will transmit it to others.

So what?
Have you never had a cold sore?

Assuming that most people will not become Mohelim - a pretty fair assumption - there is no risk of anyone dying or becoming 'maimed' because of their carrying /transmitting Herpes.

A bit sensationalist (and unnecessary), Shmarya.

[Jake]

Shmarya

You nailed it. Last time MBP was an issue the NYC health Department was ready to ban it and those who continued the practice prosecuted.

His Honor hisself Little Napoleon Bloomberg stepped in and told the Department of Health to back off. All because of bloc voting.

The agreement reached was that the mohels in question at the time were prohibited to do MBP in NYC. If they did and a child was harmed they would have the appropriate DA prosecute. So if a child died the mohel would be prosecuted for murder etc. ( There are 5 independent DAs in NY C)

My source on this is a unamed individual directly involved with negotiations who can not go public.

[seymour]

Posted by: Yaakov | April 19, 2012 at 07:45 AM

yakove since you write much better that i do maybe you can create an online petition

also what about this idea start banmetzitzah b'peh or ban mp

hey it toppled goverment

[maven]

I'm more concerned with stopping metziza b'peh by rebbeim in yeshivas not as part of bris milah...

[heshyfriedman]

Why don't we ban overcrowded and understaffed hospitals where patients die every day due to neglect. And why do we allow drivers above twenty miles an hour as it can cause way more deaths. Why is homosexuality legal as it causes AIDS and other deadly results. And ban internet social sites that have led to people being murdered. Today is Rabbi Avigdor Millers eleventh yahrtzeit and he live to almost 93. If you look at the ages of our leading Rabbis in our times,the vast majority lived into their nineties and hundreds. They had one thing in common. They lived by Torah ideals. Living that way helps you in this world as well as the world to come.

[Jake]

Shmarya is correct. It is at this point it is up to as individua ls.
Politicians know that people often care about issues but are two lazy to act. One letter, e-mail one telephone call does have impact. If 500 people actually took time to write letters politicians realize more than 500 people care.

The changes in the Jewish community vis a vis handling sexual abuse was not championed by organizations at first, but rather a handful of individuals who cared. Now there are rival organizations all over the place claiming the glory.

The free the Soviet Jewery movement was not founded by Jewish Organizations but by a small groups of youthful activists. Eventual local and national Jewish organizations got involved.

So let's not doubt what unknown individuals and small groups of non power brokers can achieve.

[Shoshi]

2. No demand from any constituency to stop MBP. Unlike smoking, which has advocates who support its ban, rank and file New Yorkers who demand it. But MBP has no advocates seeking to ban it or regulate it, save for public health officials – who work for the politicians and who must answer to them.

Yes, people don't seem to care what happens within specific religious or ethnic communities, as long as it stays there and doesn't touch their own lives. People figure, "My baby's safe," and that's all that counts. Like with many other abuses and injustices that are mostly limited to particular groups. It takes both compassion and bravery to actually make a difference. Just My Opinion.

[Shoshi]

Although some kind of petition or effort to deluge public officials might be helpful, it would probably be most effective coming from the actual constituency of the states where this is happening.

[MoishieCohen]

Maybe we should consider formulating an accurate, articulate and respectful text for a petition that:

(a) emphasises the immutability of Bris Milah in and of itself

and

(b) mandates the use of a pipette {to avoid an overly virulent Hassidic backlash)

and

(c) omits any vitriol or hyperbole that an emotionally worked up person might wish to vent, but would detract from the truth of the petition. THE TRUTH WILL OUT.

No-one can be accused of tampering with MbP per se - I would hope, thus increasing the potential success prospects of this petition being meaningful.

Yaakov is very articulate. He might be a good place to start.
I am happy to contribute ideas too.

[mimi]

Moishe, "So what?
Have you never had a cold sore?"

The children spreading herpes would spread it from their penis to their future wives' private areas. This poses complications with spreading disease and also for birth. If the woman has an outbreak during birth, she may need a c-section. This is not healthy for many births. Hopefully the rabbis are ignorant of this and don't just hate women and ignore their need for health.

[chief doofis]

Many years ago, Rabbis "assered" eating fish and meat together, because of "sakana" (danger). No doctor would agree with that premise, but most Orthodox Jews still refrain from mixing meat and fish.
There are people who won't even mix fish with dairy, people who won't drink water that was left out overnight, because of "sakana". If a doctor tells you not to fast on Yom Kippur, you MUST eat. Medicines that originate from Treif ingredients, can be used if lives are threatened. Why is this issue so near and dear to these people?

[Yaakov]

seymour and MoisheCohen:

I would be happy to help but so far as initiating the document, I would defer to Shmarya who has already done much thinking about this.

I agree, Moishe, that it is pragmatically appropriate to avoid appearing as opponents of Jewish Law, doctrine, and custom; and instead to focus on the narrow issue and the danger it poses to innocent infants.

Unfortunately, debunking the intergal necessity of using the mouth might require a head-on attack. Even if this is the case, it should be respectful and with neutral emotion when discussing these areas.

Some heat, vis-à-vis the danger to the infants, is, I think, justified. Avoiding personal attacks, and imputing evil motivation is, however, vitally important to avoid giving a reason for the mainstream orthodox people to circle the wagons.

I believe the it is utterly consonant with Torah and halacha to stop this practice, so there is nothing anti-Torah in calling for it.

[seymour]

PPosted by: heshyfriedman | April 19, 2012 at 08:20 AM

you are taking random fact and saying they are connected

1. many nazis lived to a hundred what did they all have in common they hated and killed Jews
so what is it that makes them live longer Torah or hating Jews you decide.

2. smoking kills people so why bother people to put on seat bells Just using your argument about why bother about MP since people die in hospitals

3. Please go to science 101 homosexuality does not cause aids

4 the activities you mentioned are done by people on their own free will and know the risks. No so with MP and their is no benefit to do MP

5 INTERNET sire do not led to people being murdered. that is like saying ban cars since it can be used as a tool. MP is really like smoking it has a direct effect

There is a concept called cause and effect look it up. It is something that many frum and even more so rebbies do not understand at all

[seymour]

Hopefully the rabbis are ignorant of this and don't just hate women and ignore their need for health.

Posted by: mimi | April 19, 2012 at 08:47 AM

of course they heard that, but they say chazal said it should be done as part of the bris (of course we know that is false) therefore it can do no harm.

end of story

[Bassy the Haredi Slayer]

We should contact the organization which tried to put on the ballot on San Francisco a proposition banning bris and have them change the proposition to ban MBP, while I do not think there is in the City by The Bay a lot pf MBP between adults and babies, it still will be easier for them to put it on the ballot and bring it into national attention.

[Gladys P]

Yes, people don't seem to care what happens within specific religious or ethnic communities, as long as it stays there and doesn't touch their own lives."

It is called "multiculturalism" and "tolerance", Shoshi. Traditionally Jews have sought that out in every goy country they have lived in: "let the Klal regulate itself, collect its own taxes, punish its own wrongdoers, and stay out of our affairs and we will give you your pile of gold every year, Mr. Prince". You don't like that now? You want to change that? If you really want all the goyim to vote on Brit Milah, just say so. Let them show their "concern" for chopping little baby boy's genitals. Maybe they should vote on letting the 90+ percent of Somali and Egyptian mommies continue to hold their screaming daughters down and chop their privates off then sew them up with thorn sutures.

No, you should think before you blame the goyim for not "caring" when you really want to be left alone.

[MarkfromShortHills]

There are various online petition tools, I have listed some below. I have no experience in this, Shmarya likely can help out.

I do know that many organizations use a tool that has you input your name and address and that then sends a prewritten message to your Senators and Representatives. Something like that might be useful here.

If someone has the expertise to select an appropriate online tool I would be willing to contribute to it and to sign the petition.

SignOn (www.signon.org)
Recently developed by MoveOn.org, SignOn is still in beta testing stage, but provides a simple, free petition tool that lets you download the list of names as a .PDF, which is useful for delivering the petition but not useful for a pledge.

Change.Org (www.change.org)
This popular, simple petition tool allows you to create a petition for free, but charges a fee for exporting or downloading the final list. It does have a sizeable, active community, which makes it an attractive option for more reach.

The Petition Site (www.thepetitionsite.com)
One of the oldest online petition tools, this site run by Care2 offers free basic features, similar to Change.org, but charges fees to promote the petition or download the names.

Causes (causes.com)
Mostly known as a fundraising tool, this site provides some basic petition and pledging abilities that let people stand up and be counted. Because it integrates with Facebook, Causes is easy for Facebook users to pass on—a useful feature for those with active audiences on the social networking site.

[Shoshi]

Posted by: Gladys P | April 19, 2012 at 09:26 AM

Who said I was blaming the "goyim"?

[jancsibacsi]

Theese mohels and rebbim think if they can get away with the most outrages animalistic insane behaviour like mbp that they are gods untouchable by mortals this is their mind set the uglier the act the holier they feel its like us laypeople are dirt to them we are here to serve their egos nothing more

[jancsibacsi]

seymour-Its not only mbp that is based on a tottal falsehood but their entire life is also based on a fantasy about god so they can act in an infallible way they are god so they think .

[MoishieCohen]

We should contact the organization which tried to put on the ballot on San Francisco a proposition banning bris and have them change the proposition to ban MBP, while I do not think there is in the City by The Bay a lot pf MBP between adults and babies, it still will be easier for them to put it on the ballot and bring it into national attention.

Posted by: Bassy the Haredi Slayer | April 19, 2012 at 09:19 AM

You really want to go to people who want to ban Bris Mila entirely?

An utterly irresponsible and dangerous notion.

Shame on you

[Yaakov]

I agree with Moishe that going to an anti-Milah group is quite counterproductive. I am very cognizant of the error in "the enemy of my enemy is my friend".

[Rocky]

I think that the only thing that will cause the general public in the US to take notice of the growing Hasidic community and their ancient rituals will be rising public welfare costs. In New York State, counties are required to pick up part of the welfare burden. But the costs of public employee pensions may overwhelm places like Orange County, NY (where Kiryas Joel is located) before the Hasidic welfare problem becomes very noticeable. Not many non-Hasidics (Jews and non-Jews) are particularly interested in the public health problems caused by MBP.

So far, there has been no public outcry about the substandard education being received by many Hasidic children either. Maybe in a few decades there will be.

[BibleBeltJew]

Yidden, I've been on this site for years but every time I see the subject of MshP in the title line my interest level drops to near-zero. IMHO, Reb Rosenberg, more insightful articles on EY, Rubashkin, gonifs, Ms. Feldman, Federation corruption, and shluggin kaporos and less on this chara. Is it that big a dang deal?

[Reb Mendel]

Let the goyim live by their science and their rules. Yidden will live by Torah.

[Lubavitchers are Christians]

Shamrya,

Why are you so pasionate about MPB which kills less than one hundredth of one percent, while you readily support abortion, which kills 100% of the time, and has already killed tens of millions of babies (especially black babies).

Abortion is a racist act, because blacks are disproportionately killed through abortion.

Those same politicians who aren't against MBP are the same politicians who are pro-abortion.

The difference is, that MBP is a religious act, and it is illegal in America to ban any religious acts, as per the Constitution, unless it can be shown to harm others. The percentage of babies that have dies through MBP is less than the percentage of people that are killed through car accidents, and no one is calling to ban cars on the road.

It is definitely less than the babies killed through abortion.

A woman's right to choose to kill her baby?????

And President Obama voted when he was an Illinois state legislator to allow the killing of a real live baby after the baby is born as a result of a failed abortion attempt.

That would be just a few days younger than the baby who gets an MBP and dies. Where's your outrage at that, Shmarya???

Unless, of course, the supposed outrage at MBP is just as excuse to hate Judaism. If it was real outrage at the killing of a baby, why wouldn't you show the same outrage at Obama's vote?

[WoolSilkCotton]

++there is no risk of anyone dying or becoming 'maimed' because of their carrying /transmitting Herpes++

MoishieCohen, you are an idiot.

Let the frumma continue to suck their children's penises. Who cares. You can't enforce any regulation regarding it. Let the frumma self destruct. The politicians are right.

[Shoshi]

Let the goyim live by their science and their rules. Yidden will live by Torah.

Posted by: Reb Mendel | April 19, 2012 at 10:12 AM

And the Torah teaches us that life is of the highest value, that even d'oraisa mitzvahs are set aside when there is a risk to life, and that in cases of extremity it is permissible to rely on minority opinions.

[LikeItIs]

We don't know what Cuomo said, but we know he has done nothing to protect haredi infants since then.

Interesting that we are looking to Cuomo to protect haredi children and not the haredim themselves to protect their own children.

[Deremes]

Rabbi Tendler voiced strongly his opinion against MBP and wasn't afraid that he would be looked upon that he is working against brit milah.

Some naive people who read this post might think that children are dying from MBP on a daily basis or on weekly basis,monthly or even yearly.If that would be the case then no matter what the city would of made it illegal a long time ago.

Change within the Orthodox community will NEVER EVER come from the outside.NO ONE will tell religious Jews how to go about their life,as long as they follow the law.

Small example is the bus route that goes from Williamsburg to Boro Park with separate seating arrangements.
For weeks there were noise makers in newspapers who called to end this practice becuase in the US something like this shouldn't exists.They said that its a form of racism like in the 1960's where blacks hat to sit in back of the bus.
There were trouble makers who rode the bus just to make religious Jews uncomfortable.They went to the city and those trouble makers really thought that the city would listen to their foolish arguments.
The men and women who ride that bus kept on saying that no one is forcing them and they prefer it like this.
Where are we now? The bus rides on a daily basis tens of trips with separate seating.And so are with other cases where outsiders are trying to tell Jews how to live and they failed and no authority listens to them.
Point im trying to make that any change has to come from within by good meaning people who have an interest that frum Jews should be able to practice as they desire even if its just a stupid chumra.

[Deremes]

Rabbi Tendler voiced strongly his opinion against MBP and wasn't afraid that he would be looked upon that he is working against brit milah.

Some naive people who read this post might think that children are dying from MBP on a daily basis or on weekly basis,monthly or even yearly.If that would be the case then no matter what the city would of made it illegal a long time ago.

Change within the Orthodox community will NEVER EVER come from the outside.NO ONE will tell religious Jews how to go about their life,as long as they follow the law.

Small example is the bus route that goes from Williamsburg to Boro Park with separate seating arrangements.
For weeks there were noise makers in newspapers who called to end this practice becuase in the US something like this shouldn't exists.They said that its a form of racism like in the 1960's where blacks hat to sit in back of the bus.
There were trouble makers who rode the bus just to make religious Jews uncomfortable.They went to the city and those trouble makers really thought that the city would listen to their foolish arguments.
The men and women who ride that bus kept on saying that no one is forcing them and they prefer it like this.
Where are we now? The bus rides on a daily basis tens of trips with separate seating.And so are with other cases where outsiders are trying to tell Jews how to live and they failed and no authority listens to them.
Point im trying to make that any change has to come from within by good meaning people who have an interest that frum Jews should be able to practice as they desire even if its just a stupid chumra.

[Barry]

People think that the collapse in religiosity was due to intellectual issues (such as difficulties of reconciling evolution and the creation myth) and other issues of theocracy.

It is not so. What caused most people to give up on religiosity is that secularism made their lives much better including increasing health and life expectancy.

Mortality rates in the Frankfurt Ghetto were 56% higher than outside the ghetto. Life expectancy for Eastern European Jews was about 30. Infant mortality rate in the Old Yishuv was 80% (!!!). The Old Yishuv Rabbis fought against hospitals being introduced to Jerusalem. The Hareidim are the spiritual heirs of the Old Yishuv lunatics.

The Jews who went off the derech Yishroel Saba in the 19th century did so because they saw where it led to - poverty, disease and an early death.

Internally the Hareidim (as do all fundamentalists of all religions) understand that there is a high price to be paid for being fanatic and it may be the ultimate price. This is no different from say Indycar drivers who understand the price that they may pay for carrying out an activity which is generally pointless. Of course Indycar drivers choose to risk their own lives whilst a Hareidi Rabbi will not be that foolish and only risk someone else's (preferably a child) life.

If you pray for a world led by 'leaders' under whose watch most children died in infancy of malnutrition, dysentery etc then the relatively rare death by MPB is of no consequence.

[Barry]

People think that the collapse in religiosity was due to intellectual issues (such as difficulties of reconciling evolution and the creation myth) and other issues of theocracy.

It is not so. What caused most people to give up on religiosity is that secularism made their lives much better including increasing health and life expectancy.

Mortality rates in the Frankfurt Ghetto were 56% higher than outside the ghetto. Life expectancy for Eastern European Jews was about 30. Infant mortality rate in the Old Yishuv was 80% (!!!). The Old Yishuv Rabbis fought against hospitals being introduced to Jerusalem. The Hareidim are the spiritual heirs of the Old Yishuv lunatics.

The Jews who went off the derech Yishroel Saba in the 19th century did so because they saw where it led to - poverty, disease and an early death.

Internally the Hareidim (as do all fundamentalists of all religions) understand that there is a high price to be paid for being fanatic and it may be the ultimate price. This is no different from say Indycar drivers who understand the price that they may pay for carrying out an activity which is generally pointless. Of course Indycar drivers choose to risk their own lives whilst a Hareidi Rabbi will not be that foolish and only risk someone else's (preferably a child) life.

The argument Deremes is making is that we Jews are happy to see our children die in large numbers so what business is it of a gentile to try to save small numbers of such children. After all no true Jew would try to save a Gentile in danger (and it is against halacha to do so) so why not just return the favour?

[Bassy the Haredi Slayer]

Excellent observation Barry,

repressive societies fall because the other side can offer better life, that how Spain returned to democracy, the Berlin wall fell and that how North Korea, Fundamentalist Iran and haredi society will collapse.

[Yaakov]

Deremes:

I have to agree that unless there is an internal, organic movement to stop this outside pressure will have limited, and even possibly paradoxical effect.

Without agreement from thought-leaders in the charedi community, this will, at best, drive the practice underground and lessen the trust between medical professionals and charedim.

It is a tough problem.

I also want to point out that the deaths are not the only negative sequelae of the practice. Children infected at such a young age are damaged by it in many ways that don't necessarily result in death. It is also a scandalous practice among non-Jews. If this were Milah itself, I would have a different attitude, but this is not halachically required, it hurts babies, and it makes us look like bizarre savages.

The slippery slope argument doesn't fly here because health regulations have changed how we do many things and not lead to prohibition. It is precisely the recalcitrance, and reactionary response to reasonable regulation that makes it much harder to make arguments against unreasonable regulation.

[Yaakov]

Barry:

I agree with the gist of your comment. It's part of the complex mix of things that make this a very difficult, if not intractable, problem.

[Deremes]

Note to Vodka loving,Barry.

You say "that we Jews are happy to see our children die in large numbers so what business is it of a gentile to try to save small numbers of such children."
When you sober read again what i wrote.Its not your fault that you misread and twist,its your drinking habit that does it.

[Proud Charedi]

How about I stay out of your affairs and you stay out of mine. Thanks. Goodbye.

[Deremes]

Note to Vodka loving,Barry.

You say "that we Jews are happy to see our children die in large numbers so what business is it of a gentile to try to save small numbers of such children."
When you sober read again what i wrote.Its not your fault that you misread and twist,its your drinking habit that does it.

[SkepticalYid]

Deremes has a point. Even if there's a law passed banning MBP it's going to happen. IMO the most pragmatic option is to license all mohels and require regular and frequent testing. If one is found practicing without a license or without being cleared via testing, throw them in jail for ten years.

[Yaakov]

Proud Charedi:

When "your affairs" cross the line to sickening and even killing infants with halachically unnecessary narrishkeit, they stop being your affairs. In the extreme, you become a rodef, and then I have an obligation to become involved in "your affairs".

I am very happy for you to stay out of my affairs. I won't do anything that would obligate you to get involved. How about you do the same for me?

Thanks.

[Yaakov]

I have a modest proposal.

Let's make a rule that says any mohel who uses the mouth for metzitzah must first inject himself with a syringe given him by an impartial third party.

The contents of the syringe is either distilled water or a deadly poison. The syringes are randomly selected so that the mohel has exactly the same chance of dying from the injection as the baby does from the metzitzah.

As the saying goes, when it comes to a bacon-and-eggs breakfast the chicken is involved but the pig is committed.

[jancsibacsi]

Barry -Thats exactly how the mindset of the hassidishe rebbes works sacrificing childrens lifes and much more always palying with the lifes of someone who is much weaker then they are its all about power to them,they keep on forgetting that they live in a country that has laws they forget about dine demalhito they thing they are above it all infallible this is the mentality of theese megalomaniacs.

[rebitzman]

Oh there is organized opposition to it, alright. And as I have maintained, outlawing MBP is simply a pretense and first step toward outlawing brit milah.

Already starting, folks - and when you let the wheel start to turn.............

http://intactamerica.wordpress.com/2012/03/06/death-by-circumcision-religious-freedom-or-criminally-negligent-homicide/

[Deremes]

Posted by: SkepticalYid | April 19, 2012 at 11:59 AM

I have been saying this for a while that this is the ONLY solution.

[S.]

People are dreaming if they think MBP can be banned. First, it's probably not constitutional. It will be fought and probably won. Secondly, the people who want to do it will still do it. Are they going to post government observers at every bris? No. Thirdly, the very act of a ban will make fence-sitters incline more toward it. People will perceive it as religious persecution.

The only thing which has a chance of accomplishing anything is through persuasion and education, and on an individual level. Both from a medical and a halachic perspective. If most people don't do it than on a group level it will eventually change too. Individuals who were indifferent to the danger, or who were inclined to do it just because, might choose not to. The idea that the government can order it out of existence is fantasy, and that's assuming they even want the headache of trying.

[rebitzman]

@SkepticalYid

Well said

[jancsibacsi]

rebitzman-Please dont mix apples with pears mbp is not a pretense or first step at outlawing britt you are way off the majority of jews themselfs are against mbp renowed rabbis are agaist it it has absolutly nothing to do with brit milah only in youre head youre panicking for nothing

[rebitzman]

@jancsibacs

It is exactly that - a pretense for outlawing BM.

Perhaps not for you, but it is - and actions along those lines are already being drawn by people far more organized than the rabble here (of which I proudly include myself).

SkepticalYid's solution makes much better sense, and is infinitely more enforcable (not to mention - would not be subject to a constitutional challenge).

[Proud Charedi]

My two sons had MBP and I'm proud of it. Come and get me Yaakov, I'm a rodef....

[Yaakov]

Proud Charedi:

Yes, I will just look up "Proud Charedi" in the NY phone book.

[rebitzman]

Yes, I will just look up "Proud Charedi" in the NY phone book.

They are actually listed under "Menachem Mendel".

[jancsibacsi]

rebitzman-it should never be don without the moel s clean bill health on the other hand it is a very very repugnant practice no sane person can disagree with that it is very stupid to it period i cant understand how you fail to see that

[SkepticalYid]

Posted by: rebitzman | April 19, 2012 at 12:16 PM

I think it's a bit paranoid to state that banning MBP is an incremental step towards banning circumcision. MBP incites a visceral revulsion in many people because a grown man is putting his bare mouth on an infant's bloody penis. Circumcision is perceived as a clinical and sterile surgical procedure. MBP is obviously not.

[jancsibacsi]

Proud Charedi -It was done on me also but i tottaly disagree with you i am sure i am older then you i am60 and when i first time saw it at the age of 9 i just could not beleive that people can stoop to such levels of stupidity

[Deremes]

jancsibacsi- Which sane person would let a child of 9 watch a bris? crazy

[jancsibacsi]

there are plenty of people in the chassidishe world who let their 9 year old watch it

[jancsibacsi]

Deremes-I forgot to tell you the same shochet and moel who did the mbp molested me in the mikva i am not making this up so there you have it what i just wrote to you is torat emes

[Deremes]

jancsibacsi-YOU don't know of anyone,do YOU?
Have YOU ever see a child watch a bris?
Come on confess and say you just said it becuase why not.
As many many briss'n i was at, never ever is a child allowed to watch.

[Yaakov]

Deremes:

I have never been to a chassidishe bris but the yeshivish ones I have attended had boys watching, if they wanted to. Most chose not to.

[jancsibacsi]

Deremes- I DONT MAKE THINGS UP I SAW IT MANY TIMES I USED TO DAVIN IN A HASSIDISHE SHTIBEL FOR OVER 22 YEARS AND SAW IT HERE IN BP AND ALSO IN EUROPE WHERE I COME FROM

[jancsibacsi]

AT THE AGE OF 9 OR 10 OR ABOVE CHILDREN TEND TO GO THERE OUT OF CURIOSITY

[Abracadabra]

I like the idea of petitioning - but the petitions should be to the "Gedolim", the Agudah, and the "Leaders of Klal Yisrael" who are fast asleep at the wheel.

What should the first petition be about? The Kollel system's unsustainability? The need for boys to get a decent secular education in yeshivos? The need for boys to learn a trade so they don't resort to fraud and theft and fill up more beds in Ottisville Prison? Making Yeshivos public corporations and not private enterprises (or more correctly, private "empires")? Having the books of ALL frum non-profits audited by independent, non-Jewish auditors and opening the books to the public? Stopping nepotism in Yeshivos, so that good teachers and staff members do not get fired to make room for the Roshei Yeshiva's sons, sons-in-law, grandsons?

Gosh, there are so many choices. Should we vote on what to make the first petition about?

Let's call this petitioning of the gedolim "The Jewish Spring".

[rebitzman]

i cant understand how you fail to see that

And I fail to understand how you cannot see that a practice that goes bad approx .007% of the time does provide enough of a clear and present danger to supersede the 1st Amendment.

So I guess we simply won't understand one another on this one.

@SkepticalYid

Did you follow the link I provided? Would you like a couple dozen more?

[rebitzman]

Does NOT provide.............

[Pagan]

Why has MBP not been banned? Look no further than the Gospel: propter metum Iudaeorum [John xx:19]

[Generic Viagra]

Studies comparing Public Health cost to benefits of circumcision have reached varying conclusions. Some found a small net benefit of circumcision, some found a small net decrement, and one found that the benefits and risks balanced each other out and suggested that the decision could "most reasonably be made on nonmedical factors."

[Viagra Online]

For infant circumcision, devices such as the Gomco clamp, Plastibell, and Mogen clamp are commonly used, together with a restraining device. With all these devices, the same basic procedure is followed. First, the amount of foreskin to be removed is estimated. The foreskin is opened via the preputial orifice to reveal the glans underneath and ensure it is normal. The inner lining of the foreskin (preputial epithelium) is bluntly separated from its attachment to the glans. The device is placed (this sometimes requires a dorsal slit) and remains there until blood flow has stopped. Finally, the foreskin is amputated. Sometimes, the frenulum band may need to be cut from the corona near the urethra to ensure that the glans can be freely and completely exposed.

Adult circumcisions are often performed without clamps and require four to six weeks of abstinence from masturbation or intercourse after the operation to allow the wound to heal. In some African countries, male circumcision is often performed by non-medical personnel under unsterile conditions. After hospital circumcision, the foreskin may be used in biomedical research, consumer skin-care products, skin grafts, or β-interferon-based drugs.