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March 08, 2012

State's Haredi Circumcision Protocol Rescinded More Than 4 Years Ago

Agudah logo redThe NY State Health Department's protocol for metzitzah b'peh, widely understood in the medical community as worthless, was rescinded in 2007 after Governor Pataki left office. Yet even though the sate no longer agreed that MBP could be safely done, many haredim continued to do the oral penis sucking that has killed at least one child in the past year and may have killed and/or sickened many more. The medically unsound protocol was Pataki's concession to intense haredi pressure lead by Satmar and Agudath Israel of America.


Hella Winston broke the story in The Jewish Week three hours ago.

Rabbi David Zwiebel of Agudath Israel of America told Winston he did not know the protocol was rescinded.

Even if that is true (and there is evidence that it may not be), Zwiebel knew that every medical scientist who is not a stooge – like Dr. Daniel Berman, for example – for him and the moetzet gedolei haTorah, the so-called gedolim, senior rabbis, who lead Agudah, and who has been asked has said clearly that there is no safe way to directly suck a baby's penis / open circumcision wound. And all those "gedolim" knew it, as well, as did both Satmar Rebbes, the CRC (of Williamsburg) rabbis, and Rabbi David Niederman, Satmar's point man on issues requiring pressuring (or, perhaps, if rumors are true, bribing) politicians. Even Rabbi Shea Hecht and other Chabad rabbis lobbied to keep MBP legal.

Herpes Simplex 1 is transferred through MBP way. Sometimes it damages the baby, causing illness immediately or even years later. Sometimes it causes brain damage. Sometimes it kills.

Every one of these men I mentioned above, including Berman, should be held legally responsible for the death of the baby who was killed in September when a mohel sucked his bleeding penis.

The Jewish Week's Hella Winston also exclusively reported today that Rabbi Yitzchok Fischer, the mohel involved in the Herpes Simplex 1 death of a baby and the Herpes Simplex 1 brain damage of his brother in 2004 gave Herpes Simplex 1 to another child in 2007.

Fischer should have been barred from doing MBP in 2004 or 2005. He wasn't because the men I mentioned above lobbied against it and against banning MBP.

Pataki caved in almost immediately. NYC's mayor, Michael Bloomberg, caved in shortly afterward. Satmar's bloc votes and Agudah's intensive lobbying kept Fischer in business, endangering more kids.

Zwiebel, Berman, the 'gedolim," Niederman, the Satmar Rebbes and the CRC (Williamsburg) rabbis all have blood on their hands. And every one of them should be indicted, put on trial, convicted and jailed. And so should Pataki and Bloomberg.

It sounds harsh.

But children have been sicked and children have been maimed and children have died because of what these men did.

It's long past time for the US Department of Justice to protect the civil rights of haredi children by prosecuting the rabbis and politicians who are harming them.


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every rabbi involved and those god damn stupid fucking parents should be thrown in a dungeon.

This is the trade mark of theese hassidim ,overpower others with their insanity just like they overpower the helpless baby with insane behaviour,as the saying goes, do as he says because he is crazy , meaning he is dangerous when he is crazed like the hassidim who cling to insane rules.

Today this story was in the newyork post and the times for all the goym to see. How many new Hamans are we making by talking about this for everyone t hear? we should leave it with the gedolei yisroel and be quiet.

All that matters is that the holy chassidic rabbis be allowed to continue sucking little boys' penises.
Everything else is close to irrelevant.

W4M worries about making new Hamans.

Because Megillat Esther is fresh in our minds, let's review: There was a king (governmental leader) who had someone whispering in his ear. The king said, 'You are right. The power (seal) of the government is on your side.'

Now, what happened in NY? There was governor (governmental leader) who had someone whispering in his ear. The governor said, 'You are right. The power of the government is on your side.'

we should leave it with the gedolei yisroel and be quiet - Waiting4Moshiach | March 08, 2012 at 07:40 PM

go f yourself you baby murderer.

What an insane society where sucking blood from the dick of a neonate who has just had his foreskin torn off is considered a mitsvo.

And these creatures have the gall to criticize others?

What a pathetic group.

Just like the muhlahs and ayatholas are driving iran into the sewer, that is how alot of our so called gedoilei yisroles driving the jewish religion into the sewer

Pataki and Bloomberg should be indicted, put on trial, convicted and jailed.

Enough said! Lets convene a special prosecutor and bring these criminals to trial and haul these bums away!

Litvish-people with this type of mentality in a normal society would be commited into a lunatic asylem, they bring a terrible shame on the jewish religion,of course they have no shame thats why they do whatever pleases them.

Oral Penis Sucking, to use Shmarya's turn of phrase, is not Torah M'Sinai and is not YeHareg v' Al Ya'Avor. So it's not a mitzvah for which one dies rather than transgressing.

In fact, the Talmud says that if a baby boy dies after a bris because of clotting issues (i.e. hemophilia) then subsequent boys born to the same mother do not undergo a bris!

If we rule out a bris entirely because of possible risk to life, how can anyone defend metzitzah in the face of possible life-threatening risks?

SkepticalYid- We are dealing with irrational people, i call them hypnotized barbarians, or brain washed idiots.

Jancsibasci, it could be worse...


If Satmar is involved it is a lost cause, Satmar are untouchable!  there is nothing they cannot corrupt, the only  one who  could take on them were the SS and the Gestapo who are long gone.  

When the anti-semites call this a "Gutter" religion, they are referring to this practice. Shame on all of us for not standing up to our Haredi cousins (They are no longer our brothers as they are not of this religion). They must be dragged into modernity or spurned altogether, both in North America, Europe, and Israel. We cannot afford to be remotely identified with animals from a foregone era that insist that their barbaric practices and superstition be made canon for all jews. These neanderthals bring dishonour on all of us.

Bassy the Haredi Slayer- Wow powerfull words.

If we rule out a bris entirely because of possible risk to life, how can anyone defend metzitzah in the face of possible life-threatening risks?

Posted by: SkepticalYid | March 08, 2012 at 08:28 PM

It is indefensible. Quiet simply, the Charedim stopped following the Torah decades ago and they are getting even worse.

Get this:

Metzitza B'peh anyone?


Posted by: anon | March 08, 2012 at 09:35 PM

Last year, 53-year-old Arun Sandhukha died after rats bit off his penis at a hospital in India.


The Orthodox are perpetually obsessed with keeping things separate.

Milk separate from Meat
Wool separate from Linen
Leavened separate from Unleavened

Why can't they see the necessity of keeping Bloody Penis Wound separate from Herpetic Mohel Lips?

It is indefensible. Quiet simply, the Charedim stopped following the Torah decades ago and they are getting even worse.

Posted by: David | March 08, 2012 at 09:18 PM

I meant quite, not quiet...

having just got back from boro park I am amazed how many people defend this

and simply say maybe the doctors are wrong how do we know, did they rest the mohel and so on

in addition many really believe that MP is an integral part of a bris. and even when i say but it says in the Talmud that it was for medical reason they say maybe there where other reason but the not mention it. or they mention the medical reason so it can be done on shabbas

amazing they just feel since it was done for so long it cannot be bad how.

simply they do not want to listen to any evidence that buts any of their actions into question.

My guess is that once that crack is opened they are afraid that the whole house of cards will tumble down

yesterday we read rubashkin's purim drorsha that went on and on and on for HIS yidden,that was bad enough,now what happens when the goyim hear or read about this hideus practice. i have grown up sons the youngest 38. this is the first time that i have been told via this site what disgusting rituals some of your overly religious types involve themselves.Frankly i am getting more and more embarrased about our jewish behaviour.It reminds me of the english story concerning,LITTLE HUGH of lincoln, which goes back to early history of the jewish connect in england long before the expulsion of the jews from england. Please dont tell me this is part and parcel of A CHABAD BRIS RITUAL>. I understand satmar are probably the devils children paraded and infiltrated as jewshish worshipers but does it go further than that.AM amazed at this latest insight into a jewish"custome".no wonder we have the new paedophile laws in the usa and your new acts related there to VIZ. S O R N A/ SMART OFFICE etc.

Children know what is happening on some level. They obviously can't verbalize it, they lack the cognitive concepts to wrap their minds about it but they do know something horrible is happening.

They know they were entirely powerless and incapable of protecting themselves from these and other horrors.

And they never forget it.

Such memories later on generate feelings of shame, anxiety and anger.

But the then man cannot trace these feelings back to the actual early years.

to alter kocher. For how long back into our history has this action been going on.Where does one find this instruction in our laws ? is it from the torah , from the the mishna, from the early raBbis/ WHAT DOES MAIMONIDES A DOCTOR HAVE TO SAY ON THIS CIRCUMCISION RITUAL???

The reason for the continuation of MPB has nothing to do with strict halacha.
The Gemorah states that washing a baby in clean water before and after circumcision is a health requirement like MPB so that if clean water was not available on the Sabbath, the Bris was delayed.
Notwithstanding what the Gemorah wrote, the practice of washing the child was abandoned after it became the accepted view that wounds should be kept dry. So there is no reason why the same cannot apply to MPB.

The reason why Satmar retain MPB has nothing to do with strict halacha (although they will use any old sources they can find to justify the continuance of this practice).

You need to remember where Satmar comes from. They come from the backward parts of Romania/Hungary. The drinking of blood is an important part of that reigions folklore, (and blood is a substance that is subject to taboos and a superstition through out the primitive world). It was believed (and is still believed by Satmar) that blood held the life force of a creature. To drink it was to absorb that life force and sometimes the attributes of the unwilling donor. This has obvious parallels with a vampire drinking the blood of the living to gain continued life, a myth which comes from these regions.

The reason Satmar wish to continue MBP is not because it is not a danger to the baby but rather because it benefits the Mohel who by drinking the baby's blood absorbs both the life force of the newborn and the attributes of the sin free whilst performing the mitzvah.

For Satmar the continuation of MBP involves balancing the medical risk to the baby against the supernatural benefit to the Mohel. For Chassidim such as Satmar, this is a no brainer especially if the child is not theirs.

What is the frum source for being killed rather than saying "IAM NOT A JEW"?

Enjoying your acid trip Barry?

Or are you communicating to us from some other universe where everybody is a complete raving lunatic. Because that is what you are.

That and a liar.

This has been presented as a dispute between the rabbis and politicians 100%. What about the parents speaking up about the blood-sucking? Nobody asks for their permission for the old beardy guys to suck on their kid's dick? Are they brain damaged too?

What about the parents speaking up about the blood-sucking? Nobody asks for their permission for the old beardy guys to suck on their kid's dick? Are they brain damaged too?

Posted by: Apostate | March 09, 2012 at 07:28 AM

I don't care for the sight of blood so I usually am at the back of the shul when the bris ceremony goes on. However, I believe that the MBP is not a protracted affair, maybe one suck then its get spat out, it probably lasts a fraction of a second and if you blink you will probably miss it. I would hope that the mohel gets permission to perform the MBP from the parents since not everyone holds by it.

Being that MBP is a minhag, I would assume that performing it begins with a request from the parents.

I am friendly with several non-Orthodox Jews who often talk about how they respect the Orthodox, and everyone should be able to practice Judaism as they choose, and live-and-let-live, and differences are okay. And I just want to scream: NOT ALL DIFFERENCES ARE OKAY!

I'd like to spew Yochanan Lavie's famous 246-word summary of 8 years of Failed Messiah for starters. (See http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2011/12/haredim-attack-tv-crew-steal-equipment-123.html.)

But I hold back because I don't want to engender hatred between Jews. I know there are tons of Orthodox Jews who are sweet, nice people just doing their thing with no particularly negative agenda. Many of them would be shocked, themselves, to learn about a lot of these things. (Although, granted, most know *some* of these things and condone them. And I suspect a lot of them would find ways to condone or excuse the other things, if they heard of them.)

I will find a way to communicate these things, though. Because I think it is important for people to speak up and not simply ignore bad practices and attitudes.

Barry-Youre way way of, who told you that the blood is being swallowed that is a tottal lie they spit it out after sucking the blood out bary you need to know what youre talking about they dont swallow the blood they spit it out after sucking it, i cant beleive that you didnt know this.

A good rabbi would swallow (humorous paraphrasing).

Shoshi... My dad is one of those reform Jews who likes to hang out at the local Chabad and play dress-up. I try to tell him about all of their cultish behavior, but he enjoys the oogabooga.

Spit vs. Swallow is pretty irrelevant once the penis is already sucked and the blood is in the mouth.

What if someone (and/or their kids) becomes more religious, and wants or 'needs' to have their circumcision redone (eg. They think the original mohel was not orthodox)?
Will the chassidic mohel still do the the cock sucking even when the person is a teenager or adult?
Just wondering if there is any limit as to what cock they wouldn't suck.

Just wondering if there is any limit as to what cock they wouldn't suck.

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton

In the name of Hashem yisborakh they will suck any cock, fuck any rectum.

It's a mitsvo, right?

Spit vs. Swallow is pretty irrelevant once the penis is already sucked and the blood is in the mouth.

Posted by: danny | March 09, 2012 at 11:28 AM

To swallow makes you a vampire, to spit, a haredi.

Time to get the wooden stakes and crosses. To play it safe, bring along a mirror as well.

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | March 09, 2012 at 11:58 AM

That question is even more relevant in the case of someone who has had no previous circumcision at all. I understand that usually adult circumcisions for religious reasons are treated as medical procedures, rather than a community ritual. But if there are those who say metzitzah b'peh is a required part of the bris, from Sinai, do they say this needs to be done in the case of an adult, as well?

Posted by: danny | March 09, 2012 at 11:27 AM

Yes, the oogabooga. If someone considers that they, themselves, won't be sucked in, they consider it harmless fun. But it's really important to draw the line at supporting actions and ways of thinking that damage other human beings.


My (Jewish) wife asked me to kindly inform you that "we" can afford to have at least one terrible person since the goyim--the Roman Catholic Church--harbored hundreds of perverts who molested thousands of children.

She also adds, "We're better than that."

And I add (as others upthread have doubtless pointed out): you give aid and comfort to these maimers of children when you blame not the bad mohel and the other people who enabled him but, rather, prefer to blame people for talking about it once the facts have come to light. No, the cold light of truth is exactly what is needed here. Accountability. It's an amazing tonic.

was it rav ezekiel abramsky (or perhaps the rogatochover, i don't remeber) or some other litvish contemporary rav, who readily admitted that this was a disgusting ritual
saying something to the effect of אין לך דבר יותר משוקץ מזה
yet inexplicably, ended up justifying the procedure.

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