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March 14, 2012

Report: DA Investigating Mohel In Baby Death Probe

Bris 2Rabbi Yitzchok Fischer remains prohibited by a 2007 court order from performing the oral-suction ritual and was sent a letter this morning stating that, a New York state Department of Health spokesman said. Fischer uses his mouth to suction blood from the wound after he removes the foreskin. The centuries-old ritual, called metzitzah b’peh, is used predominantly by hasidic and ultra-Orthodox Jews.



Rockland mohel part of probe into Brooklyn baby's death
Steve Lieberman • Journal News

A Monsey rabbi once linked to the herpes-related death of a baby through oral-suction circumcisions is part of an investigation by the Brooklyn District Attorney’s Office into a newborn baby’s death from the virus, authorities said today.

Rabbi Yitzchok Fischer remains prohibited by a 2007 court order from performing the oral-suction ritual and was sent a letter this morning stating that, a New York state Department of Health spokesman said.

“He was sent a letter reminding him the summary order is still in effect and that he cannot perform this ritual,” agency spokesman Michael Moran said.

Fischer uses his mouth to suction blood from the wound after he removes the foreskin. The centuries-old ritual, called metzitzah b’peh, is used predominantly by Hasidic and ultra-Orthodox Jews.

The issue became public after the death of one of three babies who had contracted the herpes simplex one virus in late 2004 following the oral-suction circumcisions by Fischer.

In late September, a 2-week-old boy died, leading to the recent investigation into the circumstances of the newborn’s death, according to Jerry Schmetterer, a spokesman for Brooklyn District Attorney Charles Hynes.

The city medical examiner listed the baby’s cause of death as disseminated herpes simplex virus type 1, complicating ritual circumcision with oral suction.

Fischer is part of the overall investigation, given his past history, the spokesman said.

Rockland Health Department Commissioner Dr. Joan Facelle said today that there have been no reported herpes cases related to the circumcision method in Rockland.

A newspaper, The Jewish Week, recently reported that Fischer still was performing the controversial circumcisions.

The newspaper reported on taped conversations in which Fischer is heard scheduling a circumcision with a caller who asks him to perform metzitzah b’peh. On the recording, “Rabbi Fischer asks the caller whether the bris will take place ‘in Monsey or the city’, noting that he ‘can only do it in Rockland County’,” according to the newspaper.

There was never definitive medical proof that Fischer passed on herpes to the three children he performed the oral-suction method on back in 2004 and 2005, according to his supporters and his lawyer at the time.

The revelations of three newborns contracting herpes led New York City Health Department officials to put together medical protocols for the oral-suction method with medical personnel and ultra-Orthodox Jewish rabbis. The state Health Department also got involved with prohibitions and regulations.

Facelle said there was no specific county prohibition against Fischer. She said the county’s temporary court order was lifted after an agreement was reached between New York City and ultra-Orthodox Jewish rabbis establishing protocols and safe medical conditions for the ritual.

Other Orthodox Jewish rabbis and many physicians dismissed the need for a mohel’s lips to come into contact with the baby during a circumcision. They have said a mohel can use a tube to suck the blood.

Monsey Rabbi Moses Tendler, a professor of ethical medical practices and Talmudic law at Yeshiva University, has said the Talmud requires that blood be sucked from the wound during circumcision but not that it be done by mouth. He is one of the authorities who have recommended a tube be used.

Rabbi Avi Shafran, director of public affairs for Agudath Israel of America, said this morning that the issue isn’t the mohel or the method, but people’s rights to practice their religious beliefs in a safe manner.

He said the metzitzah b’peh method has been safe for thousands of years and more people die from skiing accidents than the circumcision method.

“Why should a religious conviction be judged on a different level,” Shafran said, adding there was no definitive evidence that Fischer passed herpes onto the children.

The New York City Department of Health didn’t return a telephone call for comment this morning, referring questions about the baby’s death to a state agency in an email.

There are a number of factual errors in this report. In reality:

1. The 2006 circumcision protocols were enacted by NY State, not NYC, and were written in conjunction with Agudath Israel of America, Satmar, and other haredi groups.

2. Those protocols were recinded in 2007 after Governor Pataki and his corrupt Commissioner of Health left office.

3. Fischer is being investigated, but not necessarily in direct connection to the September MBP baby death. Fischer has a long history of refusing to cooperate with various departments of health.

In addition to these corrections, it appears that Rockland Health Department Commissioner Dr. Joan Facelle may have illegally allowed Fischer to continue doing MBP. If she did, she can be criminally prosecuted by the state, and would be personally liable civilly if any babies were infected by Fischer – facts that can be determined when the state or federal government use the power of the courts to seize Rockland County records, hospital records, and make related arrests. Will this be done? Right now I'd say the possibility it will happen is greater than the possibility that it won't.

As for Rabbi Avi Shafran's statement, his organization has the blood of at least two dead babies on its hands and what could easily be dozens of brain damaged and sickened infants.

Just like Agudah fought mandatory background checks for religious school employees on the grounds of "religious freedom," and fought against the Child Victims Act and other attempts to reduce pedophilia, all of which resulted in dozens of child molestations, Agudah is fighting proper state action here.

People like Shafran and the Agudah  rabbinic leaders he shills for would have been run out of office long ago if the haredi world had uncensored in-house media and if it was a democracy.

That haredim are not rioting in the streets demanding the heads of the cabal of men who endanger their children – Shafran, Rabbi David Zwiebel and the Moetzet Gedolei haTorah, Satmar leadership, etc. – is simply further proof that it is not just ancient Canannites who willingly sacrifice their children to the flames of Molech.

Comments

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Fischer has ignored the last 3 cease & desist letters. Why is this letter different from all other letters?

Fischer has ignored the last 3 cease & desist letters. Why is this letter different from all other letters?

Posted by: Sarek | March 14, 2012 at 03:23 PM

Its all part of the game of covering your ass. You get into trouble if you do nothing so it is better to make some noise so the media gets a piece of the action. Since they have a very short attention span, look busy, shuffle some papers around. In a few days all is quiet and you may resume what you were doing.

My small minded prediction:
As long as FM the JW the Forward and even Tendler are in the forefront to ban or any regulations against MBP NOTHING will be done.
Reason,it comes across as an agenda driven thing and Jews who do MBP say: "its them versus us and has nothing to do with health reasons".
ALL Rabonnim ALL organizations will fight it as hard as they can.

Deremes-You got to be an animal to be for mp it is inhuman beastial sick and perverted.

The orthodox world will sit up and take notice if REAL charges are laid. If Fischer is made to take the perp walk and everyone who promoted this barbaric custom that resulted in the deaths or illness of the innocents suffer consequences then a swift end to this practice will be achieved.

Until the authorities begin to enforce the law they will continue to do what they want.

The ultra orthodox are doing everything in their power to make themselfs hated by their clothing their antics their hate for israel they were born trouble makers, the whole of hassidism was created by a rebel bal,shem tov he rebeld and it is still in the rebelious stage they provoke hatered and anger in others they are anti social anti advancement of civilizater can anyone tell me what they are good for,oh yes i found one they have good singers and songs:)

to ban or any regulations against MBP

I keep reading and re-reading the articles (including this one) on this subject, and nowhere do I read that ANYONE is trying to ban MBR.

They are trying to get one person - who may or may not be infected with herpes simplex from performing them unless and until it can be established that this one individual is not killing children.

Why is that unreasonable?

Rabbi Avi Shafran... said the metzitzah b’peh method has been safe for thousands of years and more people die from skiing accidents than the circumcision method.

Every time that jackass opens his mouth, something retarded comes out. Every ztime.

That haredim are not rioting in the streets demanding the heads of the cabal of men who endanger their children – Shafran, Rabbi David Zwiebel and the Moetzet Gedolei haTorah, Satmar leadership, etc. – is simply further proof that it is not just ancient Canannites who willingly sacrifice their children to the flames of Molech.

Yes. Excellent, Shmarya.

Jeff -What can we expect from them they are experts in retardedness their whole life is based on that pretending they are smart in the meantime as you wrote act like retards draging down all of us sane people into the into the abyss, god forbid they should succeed.

++ jancsipista | March 14, 2012 at 03:53 PM++

Agreed.

Anyone who reads these two articles, referenced below, and still can say anything in support of mbp is a disgusting pervert, a criminal, and a completely brain dead robot:

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/114/2/
e259.full.html

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMra0807633


++SameOldSameOld | March 14, 2012 at 03:41 PM++

Agreed. The politicians are afraid of the frumma, so they issue these meaningless papers. The politicians figure the frumma are just injuring their own frumma children, so what the hell, let them keep hurting and molesting their own, as long as they keep to themselves. Why make waves and risk losing the next election.

Agreed. The politicians are afraid of the frumma, so they issue these meaningless papers. The politicians figure the frumma are just injuring their own frumma children, so what the hell.

Exactly! Also remember that they themselves want it! So unless there is an infection, it is a victimless "crime".

That being said, it behooves the Jewish community, or at least the segment that wants the BMP to at least police themselves and make sure that the mohels that do it get regular blood tests to make sure that they are not carriers. Sort of like people getting themselves checked for HIV.

I would also say that with the thousands of people in kollels, maybe someone can come up with a work around, like they came up with using money instead of live chickens, to come up with a safer MBP, like some sort of suction device held between the teeth or a mouth condom or diaphragm or whatever.

Necessity is the mother of invention, they came up with shabbos elevators, shabbos ovens, erev tavshilim, lets get the talmudik talent that we are paying for to earn their keep.

Help, I made a tag error! Someone clean it up.

The Mohel needs to be tried for manslaughter; the rabbinical institutions who knowingly endorsed him ought to be sued for damages.

the rabbinical institutions who knowingly endorsed him ought to be sued for damages.

Posted by: Chicago Sam | March 14, 2012 at 07:13 PM

Is the family who lost their child suing? I wasn't aware of that. I thought the story said that the mohel was a relative?

I would question the circumcision period.

This is being done on defenseless kids by often incompetent morons. It is not done for any reason except to advance a bunch of anti-scientific beliefs from 3,000 years ago.

When are we going to come to our collective senses and just ban all such neanderthal practices like female circumcision (Muslim), male circumcision ( Muslim, Rabbinic Judaism) and other monstrosities?

These perverts not only destroy the souls of the kids but also the bodies.

Someday they will just be footnotes in history.

"That haredim are not rioting in the streets demanding the heads of the cabal of men who endanger their children – Shafran, Rabbi David Zwiebel and the Moetzet Gedolei haTorah, Satmar leadership, etc. – is simply further proof that it is not just ancient Canannites who willingly sacrifice their children to the flames of Molech."
Posted by Shmarya


Once again you make a fool of yourself.
Why would any Charedi riot about something he does? If I choose a mohel that does MBP, would I be angry at myself?

You are also placing every Charedi in the same boat. A million plus Charedim who have a few hundered thousand baby boys a year are considered sacrificing their baby's to molech on the basis of 5-10 deaths not proven %100 as resulting from MBP and "easily be dozens of brain damaged and sickened infants."

I and my brothers and cousins & second cousins & their cousins numbering in thousands don't have any brain-damaged boys in the family. But maybe you will say that based on the few babys that became brain damaged, that ALL Charedim (1000000+) are brain damaged and we just don't know it, because we didn't report it to the papers. Now that's because we brain damaged people are not as smart as you, and don't let outsiders with different interests (that are brain WASHED by the media) meddle in with our way of doing things. Now since unfortunally there are lots of Charedi dressed people who do acts of violence, and rape, and spit at people, and molest children, and hit their wives, and are cruel to animals, and steal, just like non-jews also do, and those jewish people who actually do those things are at most number 1000, so Therefore that makes ALL the tens of thousands of The Brain damaged Chareidim (from metzitza beph, which also makes us into bloodthirsty people who are handing over our kids to be either brain damaged or to die, and just love to suck blood, and probably drink the blood too to make us look worse, and the reason why we are so carful to salt meat to remove the blood is because we are blood-suckers)in my city and all the million-plus of other cities around the world into people who are: child molesters and violent people, and thieves, and are hated, and are trouble-makers who don't keep the law, who take bribes, and don't keep the rest of the Torah but only claim that we do, we are living off the states tax income - which of course we didn't contribute to from the thousand of shekels (or dollars) of purchases we make every month. We also should all be put in jail for our mass self-murdering and brain-damaging. So therefore all of our brain-damaged people should protest to ourselves and look for other types of
Judiasm-related religion to join. Maybe "Modern-orthodox"? But they are also criminals (because of the numbers of people exposed on this site) which according to you makes all of them guilty. They are maybe not brain-damaged because they are safe as they use a tube or sponge for metzitza, but it's not the best. Maybe Reform people are better, since they pick only the "nice" things from the Torah, which still apply to modern age somehow, as the "prayer temple" Torah scrolls, and religious symbols from the past ancient times which don't really mean anything. So they rely on the non-jews to learn how to behave. So maybe we should be christians who are not in anyway cruel, (since they don't have this site reporting on their ways of life) or other religions for that matter. But that wouldn't be good either, because we might discover the falsehood of those religions. So maybe just don't believe in anything in order to become better people (and be an athiest like you) and learn from you how to be a human being without a purpose in this world, to listen to whatever the lawmakers (who are exeptionally rightous people who never broke the law or molested any child etc.), and to all the scientists who are the smartest people in the world, to what they come up with, and run our lives according to them, and have them control us, and you will be our watchdog to make sure we behave ourselves. AND THEN we will finally be free of crime, because we don't believe in anything the Torah says.
So why don't we take your suggestions seriously?? You want to save us from self-destruction!! You want to save us!!
You can't figure out why for thousands of years Charedi jews don't just give in, and why Nevuchadnetzar, and the Greeks who each wanted us to follow their style of modernism and religion didn't win.
But maybe after thousands of years you can change the way Charedim keep the Torah by pointing out our faults and crimes through this site (which makes me very happy to know that so few Charedi-dressed people are found to have crimes) maybe we will change.

I'm sorry to tell you that for the next thousand years we (brain-damaged) Charedim will not give in and give up our religion no matter what names you call us (Haman did a better job the gemara says of bad-mouthing the Jews) and the amount of bloodshedding you accuse millions of people of. It doesn't matter what crimes you claim that Charedi leaders support, and all the bad-mouthing people will say of me and other Charedim We will always keep the Torah. And no matter how many people leave the Torah world we will always exist. You might think you can continue to make fun of the Torah. But YOUR brain-damaged mind will eventually go, and that will be the END. But we have a life after this world and a G-d to answer to. He saved us from Paroh, Haman, and the others, and he made sure to let Charedi Jews exist after Hitler killed us, HE will continue to watch over us, and that our leaders will know how to lead.

same oldl the workaround is already here do you use a straw like a device to suck the blood and there is no bodily fluids contacts

++ A Charedi | March 14, 2012 at 07:45 PM++

Brain damage? Quod erat demonstrandum!

Someday they will just be footnotes in history.

Posted by: Litvish | March 14, 2012 at 07:32 PM
---------

As long the medical world doesn't come up how fags can have babies, you will be a footnote in history...and maybe not even that.

Posted by: A Charedi | March 14, 2012 at 07:45 PM

Idiot.

Haredism did not exist until the Enlightenment came to Eastern Europe.

That would be about 1800 CE.

The rest of what you write is equally moronic.

++ מרדכי סטמר | March 14, 2012 at 08:03 PM++

Gays contribute to society. You don't.

Guess who'll be voted off the island, frumboy?

Shmarya - exactly.
Till then ALL jews were "Charedim" meaning that they ALL kept the torah like we are today without the changes of "enlightenists".

Why do the frumma get so upset at Levi Aron? He only killed one child. This filthy mohel killed and crippled who knows how many.

Shmarya,
Is there a bigger moron than one who dedicates his life to bad-mouth charedim, and actually lives off them, by getting donations to support himself, thinking that someone will stop doing crime, or leave religion because of him?

A Charedi, why do you get such pleasure from having sex with children? I assume it is in your Torah.

Posted by: A Charedi | March 14, 2012 at 08:24 PM

never was there e a time when all Jew kept the Torah

in addition what you practice today in not what people practiced 1000 years ago. You may think so but that is not the case

Just like MP is not based on Torah, it is based on medical science from a 1000 years ago

you do not even follow the Talmud
since the Talmud clearly says MPs a medical issue yet you claim it is halacha you must be following a different book with a different set of rules and morals

WoolSilkCotton

As I wrote before your claim that all Charedim are criminals are just as stupid as calling you a child molester, because you belong to whatever group you are with.

I've personally seen Yitzchak Fisher do MBP at a bris in Brooklyn within the last 6 months.

seymour

All jews recognized the torah.
I wonder where your traditions are from, and how they date back 1000 years. Torah is also Torah Shebaal peh. Not doing metzitza is considered a sakana, just like we don't eat fish & meat together.

A Charedi, people in my group condemn and report child molesters that we find in our population.

In your group, you honor and protect child molesters.

Not all Charedim are criminals, but all charedim protect charedi criminals, even when frumma are the victims.

Wow, this is an interesting thread. What it comes down to is this: we live in a time where viruses are more prevalent because of the growing density of urban populations as well as the impact of globalization. Diseases don't occur in local pockets anymore. They are quick to spread around the globe. So it's far more likely that anyone, including a mohel, will have a transmissible disease. It makes sense to test mohels on a regular basis for viruses that can infect a newborn via MBP. If they have it, don't let them perform the procedure. It's no different then requiring medical personnel to wash their hands more often to prevent the spread of MRSA (antibiotic resistant staph bacteria). Simple precautions can protect children. The odds are that if a candidate training to become a mohel is found to be infected, he'll find another trade and it will become a non-issue.

A Charedi, almost all Jews may have respected the Torah but they all had different minhagim and lived by a different hashkafah. There were adaptations in halacha to meet the demands of different eras and sometimes an halacha or minhag was determined to be inapplicable in a particular time. Never before did any group insist they represented the only form of authentic Judaism. Never before did any group deny that innovation ever existed. Moshe Rabbainu did not wear a shtreimel, or a modern black hat. Miriam did not wear a shaitl.

"As long the medical world doesn't come up how fags can have babies, you will be a footnote in history...and maybe not even that.

Posted by: מרדכי סטמר | March 14, 2012 at 08:03"

Best FM insult ever! History has been made! What an awesome insult!

At A Charedi:

Are you joking? Are you actually serious? All Jews were Haredi because they were not affected by enlightenment? Your entire argument is based on the premise that Haredi Judaism is the only form of authentic Judaism, which of course, is clearly not. Hell, it isn't even authentic to begin with!

Based on what SkepticalYid was saying,
There was a poster put out by Satmar several years ago that depicted the Jews crossing over the Yam Suf. They all had pais, and I believe there were no women on it. That sounds really authentic, doesn't it?

The biggest problem that I have with people like you is that you believe that you and your people are the only moral people in the world, the rest of society be damned. More specifically to the post, you believe that a bris is only a true bris if metzizah b'peh is performed on the baby. Authentic Judaism would rule that this is a serious sin, because you are putting the lives of children at deadly risk.

This faction has warped Judaism so radically that things that are clearly sins are extolled by the community. It is that mindset, that we are perfect and everyone else is a subhuman, that needs to be totally eradicated.

and also A. Chareidi do you realize that chareidi traditions are the ones changing our Mesorah from what it was e.g. look at pictures of mainstream orthodox Jewry from 50 years ago 100 hundred years ago and 400 hundred years ago (before chreidi / hasidic stream started and you will see changes happening over time and also that Jews from different countries had completely different minhagim.
Do you also not eat fish and dairy together like sephardim that goes back many hundreds of years.,
Do you leave peeled eggs onions or garlic overnight - this is also a sakanah as in the talmud

At A Charedi:

I couldn't help but notice that you also posted that Torah also contains the Oral Law as well. And it is the way the ultra orthodox interpret this law that is changing what is really authentic Judaism. First off, the rabbis were not always right *Gasp* but yes even in the talmud the rabbis conceded that in certain cases non-Jews were correct about certain scientific arguments, etc.

Herpes is a real disease, not some "goyishe spin." At the opinion, no, the FACT, is universally known: MBP can kill babies. The rabbis as well as everyone else who lived in a different time period were unaware of the germs existent in people's mouths. They thought it would soothe babies.

That was then. This is now. And it isnt apikores to say that yes, they were wrong.

Or he was wrong. I'm pretty sure Shmarya mentioned MBP was based on a daat yachid.

"As long the medical world doesn't come up how fags can have babies, you will be a footnote in history...and maybe not even that.

Posted by: מרדכי סטמר | March 14, 2012 at 08:03"

Mordechai Satmar, gay men certainly can and do father children. I personally know quite a few gay men who married and fathered children before they accepted the fact that they were gay and came out of the closet. For example, I know one man who was a widower with two adult children, a son and a daughter. The daughter was very frum. He showed me her wedding pictures and identified a whole room of highly respected rabbis who attended her wedding. The son got married in a Presbyterian church, obviously not frum. I know two men who left marriages of more than twenty years, each of whom had three daughters whom they loved dearly. And I know several other gay men with children. And these are just the gay men I happen to know personally.

Being gay does not necessarily mean being incapable of sexual activity with women. In fact, it is typical for gay men to try to live as heterosexuals, which most of them find difficult/impossible to sustain indefinitely. Only after they fail at living as a heterosexual do these men accept that they are gay and seek same-sex partners. Mordechai, if you truly believe that gay men cannot reproduce, you are woefully ignorant about human sexuality. There are gay men who absolutely cannot under any circumstances respond sexually to a woman, but they are by no means the majority.

++++ מרדכי סטמר | March 14, 2012 at 08:03 PM++

You may think that you're having sex, but you most certainly aren't getting laid.

To WoolSilkCotton

I don't know what you are talking about that we honor & protect child molesters.
Certainly not in my community. There may be some charedi communitys who decide to deal with it differently than you do, but I & all the charedim I know will certainly no honor such people, as you are labeling us.

To the others I suggest to listen to this shiur by Rav Avigdor Miller on the "breakdown of the ghetto"

http://www.kolhalashon.com/New/Shiurim.aspx?Lang=English&Path=English|EMusar|R7517-2&SearchValue=ghetto&InCall=True

Do you also not eat fish and dairy together like sephardim that goes back many hundreds of years.
-------------
Most people don't eat fish and dairy, its not a sephardim thing.


,Do you leave peeled eggs onions or garlic overnight - this is also a sakanah as in the talmud
------------
No one leaves onions or eggs overnight without leaving
bits of eggshell in the mix.
(You see, we will always have a solution for everything....)
Posted by: Shlomo1 | March 14, 2012 at 11:04 PM
-----------------

Posted by: abcdef | March 14, 2012 at 10:18 PM
------------

I'm not very proud with the insult I leveled against "litvish", after a very tough day I had yesterday, I would deleted it if I could.

SkepticalYid | March 14, 2012 at 09:21 PM

Well said

Mordechai Satmar,

What about all the bagels and lox that frum people eat? Not only at home, at bagel shops too. Didn't you ever see a lox tray with cream cheese at a simcha or other occasion?

Mordechai Satmar,

FYI

There are many Jews who are shomer Torah u'mitzvos who are not Satmar or your chasidische type. Their minhagim are different, as are their rabbis psaks as to what is and isn't halacha or proper.

You have to respect them for following their Rabbis' decisions and opinions.

Posted by: מרדכי סטמר

I have had such days,too.

No, problem.

I understand completely.

At the end of the day, we are all still yidn and need to find a place where we can forgive and forget.

I totally forgive you and only wish you well.

I'm sick to my stomach. R' Fischer was my son's highly recommended mohel 7 months ago & did MBP. I had no idea abt his rep or any of this. Stumbled across this pg "by accident" thru an unrelated Google search. How can I find out if my sons has a disease from him??... What a way to start the week...

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