Haredi Circumcision Ritual Metzitzah B' Peh Kills Boy

Dangerous oral-to-genital contact, known as metzitzah b'peh, by the mohel, ritual circumciser, during the brit milah, circumcision ceremony, apparently transmitted herpes simplex virus Type 1 to baby, who died two weeks later. Metzitzah b'peh would have been banned almost six years ago, but haredim – led by Satmar and Agudath Israel of America – lobbied to stop that ban, Satmar going so far as to demonstrate against the mayor while wearing concentration camp uniforms and claiming the mayor – himself Jewish – was an anti-Semite. It appears the city government tried to hide this new death from the media, leading to the question: how many more babies have been killed by Satmar and Agudath Israel lobbying that we don't know about?

Infant's death at Maimonides Hospital linked to circumcision
Unidentified infant died in September of 2011 after contracting herpes
By Thomas Zambito • NEW YORK DAILY NEWS

A two-week old boy died at a Brooklyn hospital in September after contracting herpes through a religious circumcision ritual that ignited controversy in 2005 after another infant died, the Daily News has learned.

The unidentified infant died Sept. 28, 2011, at Maimonides Hospital, according to a spokeswoman for the city Medical Examiner, who confirmed the death after a News inquiry.

The cause of death was listed as “disseminated herpes simplex virus Type 1, complicating ritual circumcision with oral suction.”

City officials declined to comment Friday.

It’s unclear who performed the circumcision.

In 2004, city health officials revealed that a baby boy died after a circumcision carried out by a Rockland County rabbi who specializes in the centuries-old, ultra-Orthodox ritual known as metzizah b’ peh.

Under the practice, the rabbi or mohel removes blood from the wound with his mouth — a practice city health officials have criticized, saying it carried “inherent risks” for babies.

In 2004, three infants circumcised by Rabbi Yitzchok Fischer were determined to have contracted herpes, city officials said.

Among them were twins circumcised in October 2004 after Fischer performed the religious ceremony known as a bris.

Agudah Leader Admits Haredim May have Lied About Safety Of MBP.

MBP – A Prediction.

Circumcision Posts.

Comments

[jancsibacsi]

THEESE RABBIS HASSIDIM ARE THEIR OWN GOD,NO MATTER WHAT YOU TELL THEM THEY KNOW BETTER,THEY THINK THEY ARE ALL KNOWING ALL POWERFULL IN THEIR PERVERTED MINDS

[Sol]

THEESE RABBIS HASSIDIM ARE THEIR OWN GOD,NO MATTER WHAT YOU TELL THEM THEY KNOW BETTER,THEY THINK THEY ARE ALL KNOWING ALL POWERFULL IN THEIR PERVERTED MINDS

Posted by: jancsibacsi | March 03, 2012 at 06:54 PM

STOP SHOUTING and please, take those meds!

[purim shpiel]

They should pass a law in congress that a babies mohel or circumsizer must be documented with the state before the bris, to avoid this shtick of not knowing who the mohel is.

[seymour]

the basic problem is they believe chazal are infallible

therefore if chazal said something that we know now is wrong we are in error

so when chazal said to do metzitzah b'peh because it cleans the wound it (which was the common consensus at that time) it must be true no matter what the medical profession says today.
Not sure how to combat that since for them admitting that chazal was in error even in medical or scientific matters open for them a pandora's box that they do not want to face. That chazal could make mistakes and did not have ruach hakodesh or a direct line to god

[purim shpiel]

In times of the gemorh it was very important to use hot water in the ritual. How come we don't do that today?

[Litvish]

So the kid starts his life by having some grubbe shmuk sucking his dick?

Judaism, you gotta love it.

Not.

[Tendler]

RABBI TENDELER WAS RIGHT!!!

[seymour]

this is going to be the answer or thinking of many ultra frum people from vin

We are jews. And like other things proven every halacha that hashem gave us regarding our bodies has a health reason behind it. Therefore, so too here it can not be that there are health risks regarding metzitah. Just wait and see that in 10 yrs from now they'll actually find out health benefits associating with metzitza b'peh

[yoss]

I grew up in boro park and was never aware of this oral suction. Is this something that is done 100% of the time? When I have a boy at some point, will I be able to find an orthodox mohel who will not do this part of the bris if I request it? or is it so integral that it is a must?

[Shlomo1]

Nowadays we are מחלל שבת for a baby that's born after only 8 months which contradicts what the Talmud tells us to do i.e. not treat the baby on shabbat because an eighth month baby won't survive anyway while a seven months term baby will survive so if that's an acceptable change due to our current medical knowledge why don't we follow the חתם ספר (who said חדש אסור מין התורה) and permitted a bris without metzitzah

[Yosef ben Matitya]

Sol ,
u r resenting that he is shouting?
meanwhile, the kid died.
besides, chosids r really bad news idiots.
medicines may not benefit them.
they need a brain transplant!

[Mike]

And is this going to change anything? Of course not. There is so much scientific evidence that shows one can easily contract diseases by oral-genital contact, and yet nothing changes...

I just don't understand their logic. The Shulchan Aruch, which according to Hassidim is the blueprint of their way of life, says that physical safety is more important than spiritual safety. Therefore, they should not practice this because it CLEARLY causes babies to die, yes? It's beyond me.

[A E ANDERSON]

It's high time Ultra-Orthodox rabbis cease this perverse practice of sucking baby dick and sodomizing adolescent yeshiva boys!

RABBIS: KEEP YOUR EYES ON YOUR FRIES AND YOUR MOUTHS OFF BABY PENISES!

[jancsibacsi]

sol- i realized that i am shouting in the middle of writing i didnt start out deliberatly shouting so i let it go, buddy you got problems if you came here just to write to me about taking my medecines youre truly despicable go for help before you tottaly severe youre touch with reality you fool.

[Critical minyan]

Horrible story. Anyone who does it should be arrested.

[seymour]

Posted by: Shlomo1 | March 03, 2012 at 08:30 PM

very easy to find one maybe not someone affiliated with satmar belz ger and so on

[SkepticalYid]

Since saliva can spread herpes, hepatitis, human papilloma virus and a variety of really nasty germs , it's criminal to do metzitzah without a pipette.

[maven]

Someone should have the guts to write a teshuva saying nature changed like with the shiurim of the eggs, and in chazal's times there weren't viruses but mipnei chatoenu, etc, now there are and this minhag must stop.

[SkepticalYid]

R' Moshe paskened that a pipette was appropriate in our times. Yoilish, among others, condemned him for that psak. So Hassidim continue to perform fellatio on babies.

[seymour]

Yoilish, among others, condemned him for that psak. So Hassidim continue to perform fellatio on babies.

Posted by: SkepticalYid | March 03, 2012 at 09:14 PM

if that is true it shows why yolish must not be followed since this is amongst many things he said that was foolish

[chicago sam]

Hey, they say that rabbis suck, I guess they really do...

[motti]

2 foreskins 1 cup

[seymour]

http://www.ou.org/index.php/jewish_action/article/8976/P1/

The Chatam Sofer and the Sponge
In 1837, Rabbi Eliezer Horowitz, the chief rabbi of Vienna, was presented with a dilemma. A number of children had become infected with sores after their circumcisions, and some had even died. It was believed that their mohel had transmitted a disease to them, and so a certain Dr. Wertheim of Vienna asked Rabbi Horowitz if, instead of suctioning orally, it could be permitted to squeeze out blood from the brit milah area using a moistened sponge. Rabbi Horowitz’s inclination was to permit the use of a sponge for metzitzah, but he did not want to dispense the heter without first consulting with his revered rebbe, Rabbi Moshe Sofer, the Chatam Sofer. In a letter to Rabbi Horowitz, the Chatam Sofer wrote:

We only find metzitzah b’peh as a requirement by the kabbalists, who assert that one must mitigate the strict attribute of justice with the mouth and lips. However, we have no dealing with hidden matters if there is at all even the slightest concern of a health hazard…. Therefore, as long as we can draw out the blood from the faraway places, it may be done in any way possible. We should believe the experts regarding which act is as effective as oral suctioning. I will go even further: Even if the Talmud had explicitly stated that one must suction with his mouth [I would still maintain that one may use a sponge], since the act of suctioning is not an integral part of the mitzvah of milah, but is rather merely done to avert danger to the child. To wit, according to the halachah, if one circumcises and does peri’ah but neglects to suction, he has completely fulfilled the mitzvah….12

The Chatam Sofer went on to demonstrate that applying cumin powder is also listed in the Mishnah as something done even on Shabbat, yet no one argues that only cumin must be used as a salve for the area. Since the Talmudic era we have found more effective methods of achieving homeostasis and protecting the wound from infection, and this is why halachic authorities do not require the use of cumin alone. Similarly, contended the Chatam Sofer, based on the Mishnah, no one could argue that the mouth alone had to be used to suction the blood.

[SkepticalYid]

@Seymour: If I remember correctly, the biggest points of contention between Yoilish and R' Moshe were metzitzah, cholov yisroel and mechitzah.

[Skeptical]

If this man was aware he had infected other children then he is guilty of "deliberate indifference" 2nd degree murder. Unfortunately, it does not sound as if they prosecute any of these guys in NY.

[norm]

Most of you are more learned in Jewish matters than I am so I'm suprised that no one noted the irnoy that the child died in Maimonidies hospital. The Rabam invented this bizzare practice out of scientific ignorance and now a hospital name for the good he did has to try and cure a problem he caused. I'm guessing the Ramban would have corrected his error when he learned the scientific truth

[seymour]

Ramban would have corrected his error when he learned the scientific truth

Posted by: norm | March 03, 2012 at 10:18 PM

absolutely

he was not a moron like some of todays rebbies

[David]

It’s unclear who performed the circumcision.

Does this mean the frumma are not going to be mesirah about the identity of the mohel? Will they let him go on to infect other babies?

[GN]

Somebody told me that orthodox rabbis perform fellatio on babies when they circumcise them and I thought the guy was nuts. It's worst than I thought.

Guys, it's called circumcising the heart and not the dick. This would solve a lot of problems. But I guess in this business, it's all about a bunch of busy-bodies following useless rules and regulations with no transformation of the inner-man. And it will never, ever change.

[Jeff]

Yoilish, among others, condemned him for that psak.

Any minute now, Mordecai will show up to tell us: "Lies! It was really the Reform Jews who were against it, to push forward the agenda of the Zionist state!"

I can't wait to see how the frum lunatics will spin this one.

[A. Nuran]

Translated into English:
God wants me to suck baby boy dick.
If a few kids die because of it, that's God's Will.

[Dov Melamed]

From my understanding of halacha, a mohel who would perform metzitzah b'peh has the status of a rodef.

Kanaim Poghim Bo.

[Eli]

1. If this occurred in September 2011, AFTER the protests in which other babies dies, then the mohel had every reason to know of the danger. This is reckless and even willful indifference to the life of the baby and is murder.
2. Why is is coming to light after 6 months? Has the mohel been arrested? Is he being prevented from murdering other children?
3. Why isn't this dangerous practice shut down immediately? Because the political power or the wacko Satmars is more important than the lives of babies?
WHERE THE HELL IS THE PROSECUTOR IN THIS? The SOB who killed this baby should be in jail for a long time.

[David]

How many babies have died due to transmission of some pathogen during Metzitzah b'peh? How many deaths have the Charedim covered up? The Rambam, after whom the hospital in which the baby died was named, would be horrified of the gross ignorance of the Charedim who allowed this to happen (and continue to allow it to happen). Oral to blood contact goes against EVERYTHING that is known about proper medical procedure.

Worse still, most Charedi mohelim are not medically trained, some of them are even shoctim in their day jobs... The ultra-Charedim specifically avoid anyone with medical training because they feel that the person has been corrupted by modern learnin'.

But, oh well, if the baby dies it is Hashem's will...not the ignorance of the Charedim who have perverted Judaism.

[Beth Frank-Backman]

--- From my understanding of halacha, a mohel who would perform metzitzah b'peh has the status of a rodef.---

As angry as I am about this, I wouldn't go so far. That amounts to giving license to kill the mohel. There are people who take statements like that literally and not merely as an expression of anger.

A rodef has to be objectively verifiably threatening another person's life in the moment. The health risks are only present if the mohel is infected with something communicable and only when he is in the act of metzitah. There is no way to verify from the outside the health status of the mohel.

On the other hand he is absolutely like the man who refuses to build a parapet around his roof or the man who keeps a wild animal or goring bull as a pet. He knows there is a risk he poses to the child and he is doing absolutely nothing about it.

Of course this is lost on the metzitzah b'peh faction (we also have them here in Israel by the way).

Part of the reason why reason doesn't work is that the haredi way of poskining is to line up rabbis who said X and not X and then do a nose count of which side has the most important rabbis.

I've read responsa after responsa where there is 0 analysis of the positions and their reasonableness. The only thing that matters is whether their "in" rabbis are on the list. Even something permitted by the Shulchan Aruch can be vetoed if the Chatam Sofer or Sefer haHassidut or the Chazan Ish says otherwise.

In that kind of authority nose-count environment science doesn't have a chance. The rabbis have declared it irrelevant and so it is. Like Jehovah's Witnesses and Christian Scientists, they insist that G-d will provide and counter any scientific information that contradicts their authorities.

I don't have anything against Haredim as people. Most of them are like any other Jew, just trying to live their Jewish lives as best they can based on their best understanding of what Judaism means.

But I do take exception to this insistance on an authority driven reasonless halachic process that clearly is putting lives at risk. The most knowledgable among them KNOW better. Judaism historically has provided many options. Reason IS a part of our tradition of poskining and there is no way one can say otherwise. Their own literalness forces them to recognize it even if they then discount it as "not for our generation" or "only for the g'dolim". Saving lives is always for every generation.

They are terrified of accepting it because their halachah and unique way of life will fall apart if they acknowledge that so much of what the insist is min haTorah is in fact 'just' minhag. They'd rather risk lives.

[Bob Guthrie]

Posted by: Jeff

"Any minute now, Mordecai will show up..."

A) Oh, please bite your tongue! Never summon his name, B) "EEEW?!" on the ritual, and C) How did he get Herpes in the mouth to begin with?. O.o

[moti]

is it definite that this was the cause of death? There was a case in London where they said a baby died due to a bris complication (nothing to do with MBP IIRC it hadn't been done) and there was a whole outcry and it later emerged it was totally unrelated.

[Shmarya]

is it definite that this was the cause of death? There was a case in London where they said a baby died due to a bris complication (nothing to do with MBP IIRC it hadn't been done) and there was a whole outcry and it later emerged it was totally unrelated.

Posted by: moti | March 04, 2012 at 03:49 AM

Do you know how to read?

A two-week old boy died at a Brooklyn hospital in September after contracting herpes through a religious circumcision ritual that ignited controversy in 2005 after another infant died, the Daily News has learned.

The unidentified infant died Sept. 28, 2011, at Maimonides Hospital, according to a spokeswoman for the city Medical Examiner, who confirmed the death after a News inquiry.

The cause of death was listed as “disseminated herpes simplex virus Type 1, complicating ritual circumcision with oral suction.”

[Jeff]

"Any minute now, Mordecai will show up..."

A) Oh, please bite your tongue! Never summon his name

Yeah, maybe he's like Betelgeuse - but I only said it once!

[MIkal W. Grass]

Shmarya,

Someone out there knows who performed the bris. Someone has to have access to the hospital records, in spite of HIPPA.

[jancsibacsi]

Jeff-mordechay is still ejoying shabbas enraptured in it, once he see this blog he will attack it with all the vigor he can put into it:)saying that mothz,b;p is a bond forming hailige holy endevour to bond one yid with the other by bond you and me know he means domination they dominate others.

[FirstGenerationBavarianAmerican]

Something does not seem right here to me. The Daily News did not cover all possible angles to this story. How was it determined the baby contracted the virus for the circumcision? Was this a coverup for the child contracting the virus because of a cut that happened within the hospital? Or some foul play after the baby left the hospital?

The porn industry has some program that tests actors and actresses for STD's. Shouldn't the ritual circumcisers have a similar program?

But if the diagnosis is correct, the city can't just type up a report and file it away in a cabinet someplace.

There is more to this story than the Daily News is telling.

[drudge]

Did I just see someone comment that the mohel is a rodef and must be killed??? Omg - shmarya may take you seriously. He may be walking past the mohel's house every morning..... Just as he was walking past israeli prime minister's residence.

Are you calling for murder like that lubavitcher blau? You are no different.

Which shows us that this culture of killing people who don't agree with you is pervasive in all circles - in extreme right wing circles like shmarya used to be part of, and in extreme left wing circles like failed messiah that shmarya is a part of now.

The rest of civilization suffers from these extremes.

[Eli]

Drudge, soooo..... your defense of this and other mohel-murderers is to attack the source of the information?
Smooth, for a savage.
I'm sure you think you fooled everyone into ignoring this heinous crime.

[SkepticalYid]

A newborn does not have a comprehensive active immune system. It only has passive immunity acquired from breast milk (assuming it's nursed).

There are so many different nasty germs living in the mouth - everyone's mouth- much less viruses that are harmless to us most of the time, that testing for STDs would be irrelevant. There's always a risk to a newborn when a mouth is placed directly against an incision.

The only logical option is to use a pipette and to terminate this outdated practice.

[danny]

A question/contemplation for you male Yidden at FailedMessiah:

Are you sure that Metzitzah B'Peh wasn't performed during YOUR circumcision?

I was circumcised in 1969 by the Cantor/Mohel. I think he was MO, but would work gigs at our Conservative-Traditional synagogue. My family was basically secular zionist (my dad was a scientist). I can only hope that they would have never allowed such a thing to take place.

Does anyone here know whether Metzizah B'Peh was common in the 60s and 70s?

[Jeff]

Mine was done at the hospital (which was the common practice in the 50's), so I suppose I'm not really part of the covenant.

Good. I'll just go back to Buddhism.

[huhuggi]

I wonder why Feldman didn't mention this in her book. Instead of making up cockamanie stories about...well a a guy's cock (which turned out to be nothing but a cock-and-bull story), there REALLY ARE men walking around with blood on their hands (not to mention their mouths). Feldman where art thou?

[jancsibacsi]

Victor -youre very wrong theese are jews fanatical jews not aryans who converted dont kid youreself their dna shows they are jews i do agree with you that they are mentally deranged to practice this insane ritual genetics prvoes the opposite of what you just wrote.

[jancsibacsi]

-I as a european child will never forget the first time i saw it done i waS ABOUT 9 YEARS old.i tought i am halucinating i know for sure it was done on me also,skip 50 years to here on the blogs and now i know for sure that it was real what i saw then as a 9 year old,theese hassidim think that they are the masters of the universe and they can do as they please that is why they are hated so much they dont listen to one think they are above it all they are extreemly repugnant biengs if you can call them beings.now we wonder why there are so many molestation among theese hassidim who practice this insanity

[Jeff]

Jan, Victor is obviously a white supremacist. Best not to engage him.

[huhuggi]

I had MBP done on me, 40 years ago in some Chassidic shteeble in NY, but heck try tracking down a mohel, these days... Maybe there's some DNA evidence somewhere.

[jancsibacsi]

Jeff-i dont think he is a white supremacist but i agree with you in not engaging in a chat with him,wont answer him anymore.

[מרדכי סטמר]

Any minute now, Mordecai will show up to tell us: "Lies! It was really the Reform Jews who were against it, to push forward the agenda of the Zionist state!" I can't wait to see how the frum lunatics will spin this one. Posted by: Jeff | March 03, 2012 at 11:25 PM

----------

NO! Mordechai will NOT show up in this debate for the following reasons.

)1 I'm not here to settle halachic issues, I never have claimed to be a Rav or Morah horaeh.

2)for "us" its already settled. anyone who doesn't do MBP ,may BE circumsized as an Arab IS circumsized.

3) As long I don't see that Satmar or hisachdus (CRC) doesn't have a regulating body of who may or may not be a Moihel.
(NOT Agudah, because for them its all about politics, even the DAF is used for political advancements)
I won't defend them when they are attacked, even though I'm very scared of the state mixing in in our business.

4) A dead certificate is known that a doctor may write what he wants and what agenda he/she pushes.(I'm not saying that this is the case here).

5) every life is a "oilem mulay". But I'm skeptical that if MBP is such a dangerous practice -as you guys claim it is-then it should've(statistically) chas veshulem happened at a much higher rate,

remember there are over (in my estimation) 4000! Bris' where MBP is practiced in NYS alone on a yearly basis.

So,my calculator says that (given? that this baby did pass away as a result of MBP)over a seven years -since the last recorded incident-with over 28,000 MBP's is NOT as you guys want to paint it to be.

6)As always, I feel that the outcry is stemming from people who have a much broader agenda,than this particular issue at hand.

So this issue (you may think that I already said everything....)is definitely above my pay grade, and I won't comment.

[danny]

Sometime last week, I jokingly commented that the poster (in this case, it was KJ) would defend anything in the Haredi world, up to and including MBP.

Here we are a week later and sure enough Mordechai is defending MBP.

Does it take advanced Halachic training to understand how wrong MBP is. Placing the bleeding circumcision scar into the mouth of the mohel is 100% contrary to life and health?

[Jeff]

Does it take advanced Halachic training to understand how wrong MBP is.

Posted by: danny | March 04, 2012 at 04:07 PM

All it really takes is a functioning forebrain - the part that's able to get beyond "Der Rebbe zogt" - and that eliminates most of them.

So this issue (you may think that I already said everything....)is definitely above my pay grade, and I won't comment.

Posted by: מרדכי סטמר | March 04, 2012 at 02:46 PM

You already have, and have told us everything we expected you to, and in the process validated every negative opinion we have about you and yours.

[Skeptical]

"...But I'm skeptical that if MBP is such a dangerous practice -as you guys claim it is-then it should've(statistically) chasveshulem happened at a much higher rate,"

Tell that to the mother of this child. I'm sure that will be a great comfort.

With all your blathering, you didn't answer the real question. How many more little babies will you kill defending this practice? When will it be too many for you?

[huhuggi]

A religious ritual whereby a grown man takes the bleeding penis of an eight-day old baby in his mouth to suck the blood? In what alternate universe is this anywhere near acceptable? How is this not just another ignorant, barbaric, disgusting religious custom on par with taking a razor or piece of glass to a young girl's vagina? Please tell me you don't approve of this disgusting ritual. OMG.

[מרדכי סטמר]

Posted by: Skeptical | March 04, 2012 at 07:25 PM
--------
Please leave this job of taking my words and chopping it up to pieces ,so its fits your impression of Satmar for Jeff.

[Ron Low]

Three NYC babies got sick with herpes from one mohel in a single month a few years back. At that time NYC Health Dept. head Thomas Frieden sat the rabbis down and said "you guys had better get a handle on this" but he didn NOTHING else. He COULD have worked for strict rules that would have protected this latest dead baby. Thomas Frieden has blood on his hands.

Thomas Frieden, Obama's current appointed head of the CDC is a baby killer.

[Shmarya]

Three NYC babies got sick with herpes from one mohel in a single month a few years back. At that time NYC Health Dept. head Thomas Frieden sat the rabbis down and said "you guys had better get a handle on this" but he didn NOTHING else. He COULD have worked for strict rules that would have protected this latest dead baby. Thomas Frieden has blood on his hands.

Thomas Frieden, Obama's current appointed head of the CDC is a baby killer.

Posted by: Ron Low | March 04, 2012 at 10:51 PM

That is false.

Frieden tried very hard to ban MBP, but Satmar and Agudah lobbied against that and against any government control over MBP, going as far as dressing in concentration camp uniforms and demonstrating against the mayor.

It was Governor Pataki and Mayor Bloomberg who caved in to that pressure.

Frieden was the good guy.

But of course, that doesn't fit your political agenda, now does it?

[Skeptical]

"Please leave this job of taking my words and chopping it up to pieces ,so its fits your impression of Satmar for Jeff."

Posted by: מרדכי סטמר | March 04, 2012 at 07:50 PM

Why, so you can blather some more? This is a dead child, not some opportunity for a horse's rear end like you to engage in your excuse for humer.

[Skeptical]

I meant "humor."

[Jeff]

Actually, he is rather a "hummer", isn't he?

[Ron Low]

^^ Frieden tried very hard to ban MBP ^^

I'm sure you can produce footage of his press conference where he used his official position to rally public support so the politicians could act? Nope.

Thomas Frieden knows nothing about controlling disease.