Haredi Rabbis Duke It Out Over Circumcision Sucking Ritual

The Satmar leader’s comments stand in stark contrast to statements made by Rabbi Shmuel Kamenetsky, the founder and dean of the Talmudical Yeshiva of Philadelphia and a senior member of Agudath Israel’s Council of Torah Sages, the prestigious haredi rabbinical policy-making body. When asked about rabbis who believe that using a tube is not valid under Jewish law, Rabbi Kamenetsky replied, “Nobody holds like that.” Told of those who make this claim, the apparently incredulous rabbi said only, “I don’t think there’s a response to them. Chas v’shalom [God forbid], if [children are] getting sick [from oral suction], [under halakha, Jewish law, you] wouldn’t do it.”

Originally published at 9:13 pm 3-28-2012

Hella Winston has another important report in The Jewish Week on metzitzah b'peh (MBP) the direct oral to genital suction done by a mohel to a baby's open circumcision wound. Here are excerpts:

In a terse phone interview, Rabbi David Niederman, [a Satmar hasid and] executive director and president of the United Jewish Organizations of Williamsburg, told The Jewish Week that the September death of an infant “had nothing to do with metzitzah b’peh,” or direct oral suction, despite the medical examiner’s ruling that the cause of death was “disseminated herpes simplex type 1, complicating ritual circumcision with oral suction.”

Rabbi Niederman, a prominent member of the Satmar chasidim, went on to say that “we are convinced that there is no connection” between neonatal herpes and metzitzah b’peh. And in response to a question about whether he believed that there has ever been a death or infection caused by the practice, he replied, “No, there has not.” He added, “We will continue to make metzitzah b’peh.”

There is a previous MBP-linked infant death, an MBP-linked case of severe mental retardation caused by the HSV-1, and several less serious MBP-transmitted HSV-1 infection in infants which Niederman has previously denied came from MBP.

Once a person, even an infant, gets HSV-1, he carries it for life and can – and certainly will – transmit it to others.

Even so, Agudath Israel of America has been cooperating with Satmar for much of the past decade to block any government regulation of MBP, and to block a potential ban.

But it has apparently been doing so by not giving the actual medical information on the cases to some – or at least one – of its leading rabbis.

The Jewish Week continues:

Rabbi Niederman’s comments stand in stark contrast to statements made by Rabbi Shmuel Kamenetsky, the founder and dean of the Talmudical Yeshiva of Philadelphia and a senior member of Agudath Israel’s Council of Torah Sages, the prestigious haredi rabbinical policy-making body.

In a phone conversation with The Jewish Week, Rabbi Kamenetsky noted that in his community “as far as I know, they do metzitzah with a tube [a sterile pipette that prevents the mouth from directly touching the wound].”

When asked about rabbis who believe that using a tube is not valid under Jewish law, Rabbi Kamenetsky replied, “Nobody holds like that.” Told of those who make this claim, the apparently incredulous rabbi said only, “I don’t think there’s a response to them.”

The rabbi also expressed disbelief about those who would insist on the practice despite its links to the transmission of disease to infants.

“Chas v’shalom [God forbid], if [children are] getting sick [from oral suction], [you] wouldn’t do it,” under Jewish law, he said.…

So why hasn't Agudah issued a statement against MBP (or apparently told all its senior rabbis what the true medical risk is)?

Three reasons, I think:

1. Satmar, who Agudah needs to team up with to lobby for – or against – other government programs, grants or laws.

2. Some of Agudah's leadership is now hasidic or has hasidic roots, including the head of its Council of Torah Sages, Rabbi Yaakov Perlow, the Novominsker Rebbe.

3. The slippery slope argument that Rabbi David Zwiebel, Agudah's executive VP, so favors. Even if stopping MBP is the right thing to do, even if the only way to save the lives of a few Jewish babies is for the government to ban MBP, the next issue the government gets involved with may be to ban or regulate circumcision itself – something Agudah would strongly oppose.

How could Rabbi Niederman deny medical fact? How could Agudah not speak out against MBP? In other words, what is the halakhic peg they're hanging their collective hat on that allows them to behave in a way that certainly will sicken, maim and even kill babies?

I'll answer that in the second part of my post Why Metzitzah B'Peh Must be Banned Immediately. It should be posted by tomorrow morning. You can read part one here.

Comments

[Leyzer]

Look it's time to stop beating around the bush and realize that a large bloc of jews will not budge on MBP because the Ari (based on the Zohar, though the Zohar does not explicitly say it) says you must do it.

Posted by: huhuggi | March 29, 2012 at 03:28 AM

It has nothing to do with safety and everything to do with some mystical mumbo jumbo.

Posted by: huhuggi | March 29, 2012 at 03:28 AM

Are you calling the Zohar 'some mystical mumbo jumbo'?

Careful....

[seymour]

Careful....

Posted by: Leyzer | March 29, 2012 at 08:39 AM

carefull yes do not do MP

[hank]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1407682/?page=4

article about tuberculosis of penis. in it on page 308 it refers to metzizah bapeh and that there were kids who got syphilis from a mohel's mouth

it also refers to TB of the penis.

so it is clear that there have been documented case in the medical literature of transmission of infectious disease by metzizah.

[A. Nuran]

My father is a urologist and has done many circumcisions both medical and Jewish brises. The idea of putting a filthy, bacteria-filled human mouth on an open wound, let alone a new-borne with an undeveloped immune system, fills him with the creeping horrors.

[Butterfly]

It is amazing to me to witness people defending the right (and righteousness) to suck on a baby's penis.

[Zelig]

בכל הדורות נהגו המוהלים לבצע את המציצה בפה, היינו המוהל מוצץ בפיו דם ממקום פצע המילה. אמנם מציצה בפה דווקא הוא דבר שאינו מפורש בתלמוד, אך כי יש מהפוסקים שדייקו בלשון הגמרא, שהכוונה בפה אכן מציצה בפה מוזכרת בפירוש במקורות הקבלה, וכן כתבו כמה ראשונים
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שבלי הלקט הל' מילה סי' ח; ספר העיטור שער ג, הל' מילה ח"ד; מחזור ויטרי הל' מילה סי' תקה; אבודרהם הל' ברכות ריש שער ט; רמ"א יו"ד רסה א;. וראה באריכות בשד"ח מערכת מילה, קונט' המציצה. וראה בשו"ת באר משה ח"ב סי' פ, שהביא דברי הגאונים ר' יצחק אלחנן ספקטור, ר' חיים עוזר גרודזנסקי, ור' אליעזר סילבר, שבמקומותיהם נהגו כל החרדים למצוץ בפה דווקא