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March 07, 2012

Family Of Dead Baby Killed By Bris Stonewalls Cops, Health Department

Maimonides Medical Center BrooklynAn infant died at Maimonides Medical Center on Sept. 28 from herpes contracted from metzitzah b'peh performed during a bris milah, circumcision. But the family of the dead boy is refusing to cooperate with the investigation into their son's death.

Maimonides Medical Center Brooklyn

Family stonewalling authorities after newborn dies from herpes contracted in ritual circumcision
Sources in Orthodox Jewish community say baby's parents were related to herpes-infected rabbi who did circumcision
By Simone Weichselbaum And Reuven Blau • NEW YORK DAILY NEWS

An infant died at Maimonides Medical Center on Sept. 28 from herpes contracted during a ritual circumcision.

Authorities are being stonewalled by the family of a newborn boy who died after contracting herpes through a controversial religious circumcision ritual, the Daily News has learned.

Multiple sources in the Orthodox Jewish community said the 2-week-old boy’s parents were related to a herpes-infected rabbi who conducted the circumcision according to tradition — using one’s mouth to remove blood from the wound.

The Brooklyn District Attorney’s Office is investigating the death and trying to identify the rabbi, or mohel, but family members have not been cooperative, sources said.

“You guys are barking up the right tree,” a law enforcement source said of word that the mohel was related to the boy. “But we don’t know yet who did what.”

City health officials have criticized the religious practice, saying that putting the open wound into contact with the mouth of the rabbi carries “inherent risks” for the infant.

The unidentified infant died at Brooklyn’s Maimonides Medical Center last Sept. 28. An autopsy listed the cause of death as “disseminated herpes simplex virus Type 1, complicating ritual circumcision with oral suction,” according to a spokeswoman for the city Medical Examiner.

Mayor Bloomberg Tuesday vowed to work with the Orthodox Jewish community to prevent future tragedies.

Comments

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This is the pattern of the ultra orthodox sacrifice the few for the many,so it should not be surprissing if they dont cooperate its after all, for the good of the many in their cult like followers.

So what if your baby is dead, the collective comes first. Take this money, shut your goddamn mouth to the police and the media, and think of all the harm that will come to the community if our bloodsucking dicklicker gets what he deserves.

Simon and Shuster can now sign up Deborah feldman for a aequel...

I'm sure she has the inside dirt on this latest coverup for her cheating hubby's Hatzolha friends.

Authorities are being stonewalled by the family of a newborn boy who died after contracting herpes through a controversial religious circumcision ritual, the Daily News has learned.

I don't get it, shouldn't the parents of the infant be brought up on murder charges?

If someone hires a hit-man to kill someone it is the hit-man and the person who hired him that get brought up on murder charges.

Simon and Shuster can now sign up Deborah feldman for a sequel...

I'm sure she has the inside dirt on this latest cover-up ffrom her cheating hubby's Hatzolha friends... :-)

Sol aka Wasted Talent.

Wow. What an amazing apples-to-apples comparison.

You must ba a Harvard grad lawyer to come up with such a brainstorm.

nothing unusual here

this is the same thing families do when their child is sexually abused by a rebbie.

amazing

All that matters to frumma rabbis is sucking young boys' penises.
Everything else is close to irrelevant.

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | March 07, 2012 at 11:25 AM

on this issue one most append at say Chassidish rabbis.

most other rebbies do not the sucking anymore and many banned it

WoolSilkCotton,
My sons,nephews,cousins and many many people that i know have done the MB and I and they never had any problem.Unless there is a plague i cant see the practice should stop.I highly doubt that it will be outlawed.

Sol aka Wasted Talent.

Wow. What an amazing apples-to-apples comparison.

You must ba a Harvard grad lawyer to come up with such a brainstorm.

Posted by: Very sad | March 07, 2012 at 11:24 AM

Listen, it is a stretch to say that the gedolim should be brought up on murder charges. Sort of like bringing murder charges against lawmakers who vote against making the owning of firearms illegal whenever someone is killed with a firearm.

Posted by: Deremes | March 07, 2012 at 11:33 AM

there are many people who where in accidents who did not wear a seat belt and nothing happened to them

so i guess one should not wear a seat belt

By the hassidim they figure the more insane idiotic behaviour you get away with the more wholly you are its a thinking pattern they exhibit there is a saying in yiddish if the foolisheness is successful they will think youre a chuhum a smart person,az der narishkeit derlinktem me meint er iz a chuhem.

Posted by: seymour | March 07, 2012 at 11:37 AM

No,silly.There is a statistic on how many people died in accidents because they had no set belts.And seatbelts SAVES lives its a fact.But there are no statistics on how many kids died becuase of MP.
In the last 60 years count me how many kids died becuase of MP.

yes there is go to rational Judaism web site and see babies have been dying for a long time because of MP

No,silly.There is a statistic on how many people died in accidents because they had no set belts.And seatbelts SAVES lives its a fact.But there are no statistics on how many kids died becuase of MP.
In the last 60 years count me how many kids died becuase of MP.

Posted by: Deremes | March 07, 2012 at 11:43 AM

Please.

You're a semi-literate product of Satmar schools with a third grade secular education and a grasp of halakha that barely exceeds that.

To gather statistics either the population studied has to cooperate or the information must be initially gathered through judicial or governmental fiat.

In other words, if NY State would mandate that all babies who have ritual circumcisions be specially tracked for several heath issues, including death from herpes simplex 1, we'd know how many babies died or suffered serious injury in NY State.

But NYS does not do this information gathering because Satmar and Agudah and Chabad lobby against it.

In the same way, haredim almost always refuse to cooperate with police and heath department officials when a baby dies.

So there aren't good statistics available.

But only and cretin raised in an educational hell hole like Satmar would think that absence of data is exculpatory.

Past that, we know MPB in not a d'orita mitzvah. We also know there are safer ways to do metzitzah that do not involve using direct oral suction.

And we also know the reason for doing metzitzah is based on false information to begin with.

According to halakha, MBP is do for the baby's HEALTH.

But we now know it actually hurts babies and kills some of them.

As such, there is no halakhic justification for continuing to do MBP.

But, again, you're an ignoramus, and you lack any ability to understand what I just wrote, just as you also lack human empathy to for the babies who suffer and die.

WSC, how long subsequent to the bris does it take for death of the infant and is it a painful death?

Deremes: there are no statistics on how many children die of BMP. This is because circumcision is typically not mentioned in the death certificate. So we can't know (and don't think that people don't have a vested interest in covering up the link) But the answer: probably a lot more die from it than you think.

Posted by: Shmarya | March 07, 2012 at 11:58 AM


it is not only him it the leaders that say and think the same way

of course to them if chazal said to do it, even for medical reason it must be done. remember they believe that chazal knew more than todays doctors do.

of course the whole thing in BS

nowhere does it say how to draw blood so even if one wants to do MP they can draw blood in safe way.

but some cannot even admit that chazal where wrong even in scientific issues because then everything can be questioned

Posted by: Shmarya | March 07, 2012 at 11:58 AM


it is not only him it the leaders that say and think the same way

of course to them if chazal said to do it, even for medical reason it must be done. remember they believe that chazal knew more than todays doctors do.

of course the whole thing in BS

nowhere does it say how to draw blood so even if one wants to do MP they can draw blood in safe way.

but some cannot even admit that chazal where wrong even in scientific issues because then everything can be questioned

So, sucking on a baby's genitals is sexual assault(and illegal) unless for religious reasons? Oh okay then.

WoolSilkCotton,
My sons,nephews,cousins and many many people that i know have done the MB and I and they never had any problem.Unless there is a plague i cant see the practice should stop.I highly doubt that it will be outlawed.

Posted by: Deremes | March 07, 2012 at 11:33 AM


A plague? So one death in 5,000 or 10,000 is acceptable to you in this case. You really are a piece of work.

Charge Mom & Dad with child endangerment causing death or manslaughter.

Make it common knowledge in the community that ANY circumcision performed using this barbaric technique will draw immediate charges from the police and removal of all children by child welfare agencies.

That at least will keep one or two from having their child circumcised in this manner

I heard many poskim were consulted and felt that this is mesirah and its forbidden to cooperate.

An autopsy listed the cause of death as “disseminated herpes simplex virus Type 1, complicating ritual circumcision with oral suction,”

Safe to say the family, mohel and rabbis fought the autopsy?

As a child of 9 when i saw it i tought i was hullucinating could not beleive my eyes it was dont on me of that i am sure since it was near satmer where i lived,i tought to my self theese hassidim really really get to you its like those soul snatchers they take over youre body there is nothing holy when it comes to invading youre personal space its lkie an isurance by them that they get you for life you cant escape from them they even get yure most personel private parts no wonder they have no shame whatsoever.

Posted by: hassid | March 07, 2012 at 12:27 PM

nice

do this long enough and it will blow up in your face like the sexual abuse issue

By protecting him they ensure he will kill again.

So if there is no tracking how do we know that THIS baby died of herpes from Metzitzah ?
Metzitzah is done becuase its PART of the bris and unless there is a deathly disease running around it has to be done.Dont be foolish saying that its done on misinformation or becuase poskim don't care about babies,silly.

Since the great posek R'Seymour keeps bringing up the Chasam Sofer ztl as if he paskend that Metzitzah does not have to be done,here is from Wikipedia where basically you take all your sources about the controversy:


The ritual of metzitzah is found in Mishnah Shabbat 19:2, which lists it as one of the four steps involved in the circumcision rite. Moses Sofer (1762–1839) observed that the Talmud states that the rationale for this part of the ritual was hygienic — i.e., to protect the health of the child. The Chasam Sofer contended that metzitzah with a sponge would accomplish the same purpose as oral suction. His letter was published in Kochvei Yitzchok.[17] Moshe Shik (1807–1879) a student of Moses Sofer, states in his book of Responsa, She’eilos u’teshuvos Maharam Shik (Orach Chaim 152,)[further explanation needed] that Moses Sofer gave the ruling in that specific instance only and that it may not be applied elsewhere. He also states (Yoreh Deah 244) that the practice is possibly a Sinaitic tradition, i.e., Halacha l'Moshe m'Sinai.

Chaim Hezekiah Medini claimed the practice to be Halacha l'Moshe m'Sinai and elaborates on what prompted Moses Sofer to give the above ruling:.[18] He tells the story that a student of Moses Sofer, Lazar Horowitz, author of Yad Elazer and Chief Rabbi of Vienna at the time, needed the ruling because of a governmental attempt to ban circumcision completely if it included metztitzah b'peh. He therefore asked Sofer to give him permission to do brit milah without metzitzah b’peh. When he presented the defense in rabbinic court, they erroneously recorded his testimony to mean that Sofer stated it as a general ruling.[19]

The Mishnah does not state that it is meakev the milah. If it is meakev, why don't we put cumin on the baby's wound as it states in the same Mishnah?

So if there is no tracking how do we know that THIS baby died of herpes from Metzitzah ?
Metzitzah is done becuase its PART of the bris and unless there is a deathly disease running around it has to be done.Dont be foolish saying that its done on misinformation or becuase poskim don't care about babies,silly.

Idiot.

Because the A-U-T-O-P-S-Y proved it.

As for your pathetic grasp of halakha, do try to process: no one holds by a da'at yachid l'chatchila.

The Hid"a is a da'at yachid.

And his story about the Hatam Sofer has been clearly rebutted many times over. The Hid"a lived in Palestine and the Hatam Sofer in Hungary. Any stories the Hid"a told about him were second, third and fourth hand, at best.

But knowing any of this requires an education and the will to know the truth – two things you completely lack.

This is a new blood label against us. Where is the proof? If this is aproblem and it is contagus then why aren't there thousands of cases? As for the parents, nebech, how terrible, but now they must think to the future and how their other kids will get a good shiduck. Good families dont want to be related to mosurs.

Agudath, Satmar, the mohel and any leader who made public statements supporting the safety of MBP should be charged criminally (if possible) along with the parents (if possible). If the parents won't cooperate with the investigation they should be charged with obstruction of justice.

Moreover, Agudath, Satmar and its leaders should be sued in a civil suit for damages to any child that resulted from their promotion of the safety of MBP. The state should also attempt to recover the medical and investigation costs from all of the above.

A blood label? That's a very good malapropism. Well done!!

I agree with W4M. Leave the parents alone. If the parents don't give a shit that their son was murdered by this herpes-carrying mohel (who most likely contracted it along with syphillis from some whore in Atlantic City), then why should anyone else care?

By protecting him they ensure he will kill again.

Posted by: A. Nuran | March 07, 2012 at 12:53 PM

He knows who he is. I am sure he will not do it again because he knows the publicity that will come crashing down on him.

You can say that this time he did not know that he is a carrier. To do it again will open up all sorts of legal trouble.

Sort of like the difference between someone infecting someone else with HIV unknowingly vs knowingly.

Disgusting!

And Deborah Feldman is a Liar.

It results in cases of brain damage not only death.

http://www.nyc.gov/html/doh/html/std/std-bris.shtml

The Maharam Shik who is one of the biggest and closest talmidim of the Chasam Sofer also says that what his rebbe said was in one specific instance.But in any case i am not here to debate halacha ill do that in shull.

Given the health department's findings linked above, MBP is physical abuse and constitutes a danger to the baby. Any mandated reporter should be required to report same.

Posted by: Sol | March 07, 2012 at 01:24 PM

no he won't remember they say and think it was not the cause of death the doctors are in error

something that chazal tells you to do cannot harm you

repost


read Rabbi Slifkin
article Suckers
for Orthodoxy and download
the PDF article written by Shlomo Sprecher, including that the chazan
sofar meant it for all brisis and the campaign to make it like he did
not say that . He brings solid prove that death from MP has
been known for a very long time and was banned in many communities in
Europe by gedoleim. Even in NYC in the early 1900's the health
department suspected MP as a cause of death of children

I guess the cover up has started VIN is not reporting this

As i wrote before there is a yiddish saying if the foolishness is a success then the world will think youre a smart person in yiddish it goes like this, az der narishkeit derlingtem me meint er iz a chuchem,the same with this metz b,p you fool the world they thing youre a genious,with all the groisen rebbes they are mostly fools

just saw it

he was late in reporting it

The way I see this unfortunate episode, the a child died unnecessary, As a liberal I would not want the government to stand between someone’s religious views, therefore MP should not be outlawed, and if someone want to follow his views let it be. Nevertheless, government has a interest in protecting the children, therefore, each mohel should have to undergo blood tests at least once a month, to see if they are free of any STD’s, like hookers in some places.

Finally, the DA should bring the father of the child in front of a grand jury, and compel him to divulge the name of the mohel, with the threat of a contempt of court charges. If the mohel know he had herpes he should be prosecuted with involuntary manslaughter charges.

Joe Field -youre a mindless moron what about the child he has no say to what they do to him isnt he a human being whos body should be respected of limits for the vile act you discuss me with youre liberal stupidity religious rights hahaha you dummy

All that matters to frumma rabbis is sucking young boys' penises.
Everything else is close to irrelevant.
Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | March 07, 2012 at 11:25 AM

Thank you for your comment. It does more to impugn the character of the writer (including his ilk) and denigrate the value of his opinion on like topics than does an avalanche of rebuttals. Keep it up mr. para professional.

As a hardcore liberal I say subpoena the parents. If they don't cough up the name have them held for obstruction of justice and contempt of court.

Any decent society has to protect those who cannot protect themselves. That includes babies who die from being fellated by a diseased cocksucker. These are Pure Batshit fanatics. They will not, cannot believe that anything is wrong with their traditions. He'll keep doing this because it's "minhag".

The comments on VIN prove my point. The apologists are already lining up saying "It couldn't have been him." "Chazal says this is hygienic." "I know the family. The baby got it from his mother." "They can cram the baby full of anti-viral drugs to reduce the risk."

So on. So forth. ad nauseam

These people are impervious to logic and facts. In this case only force will alter their behavior.

Obviously the child was a tzaddik in his previous life, and needed only to keep one more mitzva in order to achieve the world to come at the highest level, and thus the parents and everyone should be happy that they merited to help bring this about.

i cant see the practice should stop.

Posted by: Deremes | March 07, 2012 at 11:33 AM

Why should the practice continue if it is not Halachically necessary and is incorrectly based on the presumption that it is for the health of the child? We now know that this medieval thinking is wrong and it can kill babies. As with anything else we discover to be harmful, it should be discontinued.

I wonder what the cops must think of the parents not cooperating with the investigation of the death of their own baby?

Are these parents suffering? They just lost the life of their baby. I would assume that the parents would be forthcoming in order to understand why their baby died and prevent it from happening to any future children. What horrifies me is that, if they actually know about the dangers of MBP, and choose to continue with the practice, that makes it all the more abhorrent.

It's entirely possible that rabbinical and communal coercion are forcing them to keep quiet.

let's get something straight. this mohel KNEW he had herpes.
give me a gun


This is a new blood label against us. Where is the proof? If this is aproblem and it is contagus then why aren't there thousands of cases? As for the parents, nebech, how terrible, but now they must think to the future and how their other kids will get a good shiduck. Good families dont want to be related to mosurs.

Posted by: Waiting4Moshiach

You are a shame not only to Jewry,but also to mankind;you disgusting psychopath!

I think we should also think of the poor parents who are probably going through a hell of their own. First they are blessed with a baby boy then they take him to have a bris like all their community does i.e. they do the right things and then they see their baby slowly die in front of their eyes in hospital. After this tragedy they are then told by
their religious authorities that they are not allowed to talk about what happened and not to cooperate with the police which is probably the natural instinct to do.
Seymour great links you posted re the subject and the Artscroll type misinformation re the whole issue you beat me to it.
Happy Purim to all

The loss of a life is horrific. It is also sad to see a 'shanda fur die goyim' which can overshadow positive stories of circumcision like reducing transmission of AIDS.

Also, I remember a bit fuzzily a story many years ago from Minneapolis, I believe, where a urologist/surgeon had to perform some delicate surgery. I can't remember whether it was on an adult or a child. He called in a mohel who done thousands of brit milah.

It's entirely possible that rabbinical and communal coercion are forcing them to keep quiet.

Posted by: SkepticalYid | March 07, 2012 at 04:40 PM

for sure just like they make sure to keep parents quiet about sexual abuse

what is truly amazing is how many people on VIN simply say they doctors are wrong and MP is OK.

what I do not understand even if there is a slight chance of death why take a risk for a minhag

I think if the parents were aware of the danger of the practice and allowed it to be done or didn't seek medical care immediately after, they should look into filing criminal charges against them.

Abu Jihad,
Waiting4Moshiach is a parody. It does not reflect the author's true beliefs. He brilliantly (if sometimes tastelessly) parodies the sick perverted religion of New York hareidi Judaism, especially the bizarre attitudes and behaviors of such filthy cults as Breslov and to a lesser extent Chabad (there are more educated "ba'alei chuva in Chabad than the ignorant lowest-class trash that purports to live by spew of Nachman of Breslov).

His posts illuminate the sick state of hareidi Judaism today and bring to the eye of the reader a stark picture of the sickness and perversion of Torah by fundamentalist Jewish sects.

If Waiting4Moshiach's parodies anger you, then a conversation with a typical Brooklyn hareidi Jew would infuriate you since he parodies EXACTLY their ignorant and anti-Torah beliefs.

++alex | March 07, 2012 at 03:53 PM++

Hi, Alex! Go Fvck yourself.

"""""
Also, I remember a bit fuzzily a story many years ago from Minneapolis, I believe, where a urologist/surgeon had to perform some delicate surgery. I can't remember whether it was on an adult or a child. He called in a mohel who done thousands of brit milah.

Posted by: Steven W | March 07, 2012 at 05:09 PM
"""""

The mohel is Shepshel a real honest to goodness holy man. I never heard this particular story though.

I would assume that the parents would be forthcoming in order to understand why their baby died and prevent it from happening to any future children.

Let us try to understand this. The mohel was their relative, their child is dead, how would getting their relative in trouble help their child? I assume that they are not looking for vengeance. I would assume that the mohel would stop performing MBP since he now knows that he is a carrier and could infect other children.

So, sucking on a baby's genitals is sexual assault(and illegal) unless for religious reasons? Oh okay then.

Posted by: MrBBQ | March 07, 2012 at 12:22 PM

Reminds me of the snake bite scene in Woody Allen's movie Bananas.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXDjfJ5imD4

++dh | March 07, 2012 at 12:02 PM++

Takes 5-9 days for the infection to become manifest. The suffering is awful.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/114/
2/e259.full.html

This article is an excellent report. It dispels all doubt. In case the link doesn't open for you, I am sending a copy to Shmarya. Perhaps he can post it here, or he can send it to your private e-mail.

Neonatal Genital Herpes Simplex Virus Type 1 Infection After Jewish Ritual Circumcision: Modern Medicine and Religious Tradition

Benjamin Gesundheit, Galia Grisaru-Soen, David Greenberg, Osnat Levtzion-Korach, David Malkin, Martin Petric, Gideon Koren, Moshe D. Tendler, Bruria Ben-Zeev, Amir Vardi, Ron Dagan and Dan Engelhard.

Pediatrics 2004;114;e259

I would assume that the mohel would stop performing MBP since he now knows that he is a carrier and could infect other children.

Posted by: Sol | March 07, 2012 at 07:22 PM

big assumption any are in denial and simply cannot except that MP does any harm

Every adult should assume he/she is a carrier. Most adults are asymptomatic carriers.

It's appropriate that the title of thread includes the word Stonewall. The mohel in question is probably a closet case.

Happy Purim to the entire FM community

WSC your links return error 404 atleast in australia

So many comments, so little time.

w4m is a middle age, frustrated lesbian living in a frum community. She obviously has too much time on her hands.
===
We are told that a urologist in the midwest called in a mohel to help out in a difficult surgery.

Did the mohel have hospital privileges and the malpractice and license to practice surgery? If not, the story is a lie like so many other frum stories starting with the Torah and on down to our pathetic age.

===

It results in cases of brain damage not only death.
Posted by: jewishwhistleblower

Thanks for this information. Now we can explain the high incidence of stupidity in the frum community.

Shlomo,
You could also try the website for the American Academy of Pediatrics,
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org

Go to eArchives (you'll see it near the top middle of the home page), then 2004, then August 1 issue, then page e259.

It's a free service on the AAP website.


I sent the article to Shmarya. If you still can't open it, perhaps he can e-mail the article to you.

Litvish, I share your skepticism of the urologist story. It sounds like typical frumma fantasy baloney. No mohel/rabbi would be allowed to touch a patient in any legitimate hospital's operating room. He could be present to say the blessing while the urologist does the circ; we've done that in our hospital, but he would not be allowed to do any actual physical patient contact.

Please try to read the case report that I cited above. It describes the sequelae of neonatal/infant Herpes SImplex 1 infection.

Also this:
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMra0807633

If the link doesn't open directly, go to:

http://www.nejm.org

Go to Issues, then Browse Full Index, then 2009, then Oct 1; 361 (14): 1328-1416, then scroll down to page 1376.

Got it WSC thank you I would suggest that we ban MBP before it is imposed on us especially considering the halachic links posted by seymour above - it seems to be not as rare as people think

big assumption any are in denial and simply cannot except that MP does any harm

Posted by: seymour | March 07, 2012 at 07:38 PM

I beg to differ. So we will leave it at that - or as they say "We will have to agree to disagree".

@Sol:

I didn't say they were looking for vengeance. I said that they should find the reason why their baby died (MBP) and prevent it from happening to any future children (tell others the dangers of MBP).

Catching the guy who actually did the MBP is a temporary solution. But think how many other mohelim in the satmar sect perform MBP on a regular basis. The mohel, along with all the other satmars, believe that the only way to perform a kosher bris is via MBP. It's that idea that needs to be eradicated.

No, Litvish..... W4M is really Shmarya. After an Ambien he know not-ith what he do-ith.

Thnx WSC. Can't pull it up on this device. Will do it on the computer tomorrow.

Any doctors out there? Can HPS1 also cause developmental disabilities in infants?


@Sol:

I didn't say they were looking for vengeance. I said that they should find the reason why their baby died (MBP) and prevent it from happening to any future children (tell others the dangers of MBP).

Catching the guy who actually did the MBP is a temporary solution.

they should find the reason why their baby died: Disseminated herpes simplex virus Type 1

tell others the dangers of MBP I don't think they want or need to go on a media tour. I think the word is getting out.

Catching the guy who actually did the MBP is a temporary solution.: Like I mentioned in another comment, I highly doubt that he will do it again so I fail to see how "catching" him will have any effect.

What is needed is simply to make MBR illegal. In the current climate I don't think it should be too hard but they should move quickly and try not to get sidetracked.

WSC your links return error 404 atleast in australia

Posted by: Shlomo1 | March 07, 2012 at 08:22 PM

Works for me. Make sure you copy the entire URL - the second line won't necessarily paste automatically.

The Minneapolis mohel story came to me semi-directly from a Conservative rabbi who has no patience for the farbrent. It was about 15-20 years ago. Life's intrusions obscure the details in my mind. I want to say there was some sort of injury or congenital issue requiring surgery. It was not a religious circumcision. I don't think the patient was Jewish. I do not know if he consulted or performed the services but everything was otherwise negotiated with the powers that be.

It's simple. Tell the parents that if they don't say who the mohel was, the police will have no choice but to assume the father raped the infant and gave him herpes. Tell him he'll be put away for life.

- oh - and tell the father there will be no kosher food in jail.

Litvish, how dare you reveal the secret that W4M is my sockpuppet! I told you not to tell anyone!

Robert Wisler,if w4m is just a parody of haredim,he is making an oustanding job.But is he is for real,which is what I still believe,he is a sick schmuck!

Posted by: jancsibacsi | March 07, 2012 at 03:34 PM

Sorry but I think you misunderstood my view, I personally hope that nobody would do any MBP, that said, for a long time it has been legally established that parents have the right to bring up their children, they way they see fit. Therefore, government doesn’t have any legal right to abolish MBP, but in the interest of children they could regulate and force every mohel to get a blood test every month to see if he is clear of any STD.

Regardless, conservative or liberal, government should not get into the habit of regulating religious behavior. Finally, your point that the child isn’t able to consent to the MBP, you are right, but so he cannot consent to the circumcision. Are you willing to stop any circumcision? I didn’t think so.

Tell the parents that if they don't say who the mohel was, the police will have no choice but to assume the father raped the infant and gave him herpes. Tell him he'll be put away for life.

Posted by: Dovit | March 07, 2012 at 10:40 PM

I think their lawyer will have something to say about that!

Posted by: Deremes | March 07, 2012 at 11:43 AM

One baby dying from this stupid thing is enough.

Joe Field, you are wrong. The government absolutely has the right to ban MBP for health and safety reasons as long as the law applies to anyone who engages in the practice, Jewish or not. The rights of parents do not extend to causing physical harm or death to a child (note our child abuse laws).

@Joe Field. You are wrong. The law does consider certain parental behaviors to be abuse, or criminal negligence. A person is absolutely not allowed to use religion as an excuse to raise their child "any way they see fit."

Deremes, what I cannot for the life of me understand from your posts in this thread is why in your mind MBP is a good thing. I'm serious here. Can you please explain to me why you don't personally consider it revolting?

Deremes, what I cannot for the life of me understand from your posts in this thread is why in your mind MBP is a good thing. I'm serious here. Can you please explain to me why you don't personally consider it revolting?


His rebbe told him to do it. All of the rabbis he knows tell him to do it. He was brought up to be incapable of independent thought.

If his heilige rabbonim tell him something is a good thing, then it is, by definition, a good thing. He certainly isn't going to listen to a bunch of gehinnom-bound apikorsim.

Shmarya
Why attack deremes based on his 'third grade Satmar education'?
Janciputz has only a second grade level of same education, yet you tolerate him?
(Since you probably don't believe the 'Purim story', I refrain from wishing you a happy Purim)

@Sol:

In the case of making MBP illegal I 100% agree with you.

This is exactly the kind of nonsense that will get Orthodox Jews stereotyped on the next Law & Order.

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