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March 05, 2012

Breaking: Brooklyn DA Looking Into Infant's Death From Controversial Bris Practice

Handcuffs2A 2-week-old infant died at Brooklyn’s Maimonides Hospital in September after contracting the herpes simplex virus Type 1 during the practice of metzitzah b’peh, otherwise known as “oral suction,” or the suctioning of blood from the circumcision wound directly by mouth. “The state has a compelling interest in protecting the health of children and needs to step in on an emergency basis to make sure this practice is halted immediately,” Marci Hamilton, a professor at Cardozo law school and an expert in church-state matters. “The DA should step in and this mohel should go to jail [for a felony].”

 

According to The Jewish Week, the DA is looking into this awful, unnecessary death:

Jerry Schmetterer, the spokesman for Brooklyn DA Charles Hynes, told The Jewish Week Monday, “Our Crimes Against Children Bureau is looking into this situation. I would not assume what any possible charges would be.”

How did Agudath Israel of America respond to news that another baby had died from herpes simplex 1 transmitted by metzitzah b'peh? ? Like this:

…David Zwiebel, executive vice president of the ultra-Orthodox umbrella group Agudath Israel, noted that in 2006, the New York State Department of Health and a “broad array” of Orthodox rabbis signed off on a Circumcision Protocol Regarding the Prevention of Neonatal Herpes Transmission.

“We have no information whether the mohel [in the new case] took the precautionary hygienic steps outlined in the DOH Protocol, whether an investigation was done to determine the cause and source of the child’s infection, or what any such investigation may have determined,” Zwiebel said. “Until we know those things, I think it is premature for us — or anyone, for that matter — to offer public comment.”

The state guidelines were the subject of heated controversy at the time they were signed, as doctors and other medical experts claimed that the practices they outlined — including requiring mohels to sanitize their hands and rinse their mouths with mouthwash — did nothing to guard against the transmission of the herpes virus. Indeed, even the city’s health commissioner at the time, Dr. Thomas Frieden, expressed serious reservations about the sufficiency of the guidelines.

In fact, the website of the city’s Health Department currently notes that “there is no proven way to reduce the risk of metzitzah b’peh” and that, while “a mohel may use oral rinses or sip wine” before performing the ritual, “there is no evidence that these actions reduce the spread of herpes.” The site also states that “[a] mohel who takes antiviral medication may reduce the risk of spreading the virus during [the ritual], but there is no evidence that taking medication eliminates the risk.”…

Read it all here.

Comments

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“The DA should step in and this mohel should go to jail [for a felony].”

Makes no sense unless he knew he was a carrier.

If someone does not know that he has HIV and has sex with someone and later it turns out that he was infected and the partner eventually dies from HIV can felony charges be brought against him?

Mind you, I feel that "metzitzah b’peh" should be made illegal, then, yes, felony charges should be filed for anyone practicing "unsafe" brises.

They should subpena the parents to force them to say who the mohel was. Otherwwse nothing will be done.

Shmarya,

Maybe write an article against abbortion in which hundereds of thousands of baby's are murdered every year? But for you that's fine to murder a baby and not give it a chance to live. But Metzitza? Ban it right away because two cases out of a million happened with tragic death. I can tell you that my whole family, siblings relatives and distant relatives, and my son had metzitza bepeh, and not one got sick. If you're REALLY concerned, try stopping ABORTION = MURDER.

Is there a difference between freedom of religion and the right to bear arms they both are dangerous and sometimes cost lives.
Why do some of us understand that Babies who survive their abortion are allowed to be killed but a religious person is not allowed to perform a customary practice that risks exposes his infant to the herpes virus
May I suggest that you hate Chasidim and Jewish Customs?
What are the statistics? How many Jewish children died after metzitzah b’peh?

Is there a difference between freedom of religion and the right to bear arms they both are dangerous and sometimes cost lives.

Why do some of us understand that Babies who survive their abortion are allowed to be killed but a religious person is not allowed to perform a customary practice that risks exposes his infant to the herpes virus

May I suggest that you hate Chasidim and Haredi Customs?

What are the statistics? How many Jewish children died after metzitzah b’peh?

I know Shmarya posts entries as they might happen but it is thought-provoking that there have been 3 articles in about a day highlighting the intersection of current versions of traditional Jewish practice (bris, shechita, and get), modern sensibilities and potential (secular) state action.

And on a lighter note, it was an 'eye-opener' to see a Hooters ad on the side of the page.

oy vey iz mir rebono shel olom such a holly hailige thing this metz b;p they are out to get us oy vey .

So if you drink a lot of wine, suck on a penis, then gargle with mouthwash, then that's ok?

since orthos want blowjobs on 8 day olds to be permitted under the umbrella of religious freedom i see no reason why someone cant start a religion which calls for any type of sex on any age child and claim the same exemption. why are guys like warren jeffs put in jail?
and for the agudah to not even be willing to ban a mohel with herpes shows just what pigs they are. theyre more concerned that some guy will lose some extra income than with the lives of infants. this is consistent with their stance on child molesters.
those agudahniks never cease to amaze me.

WSC, I've used that line before to no avail, but YMMV. Roll Tide.

@Real Jew: are you suggesting that banning mohels who have a transmissible oral virus from performing metzitzah is anti-semitic? Do you really believe that a n occasional infant death is a reasonable risk in order to accommodate a religious belief? Can you possibly be that ill?

Torah Jew, what is wrong with stopping BOTH of these things? Infant life is certainly more important than a bris, which can be made safer, right?

++BibleBeltJew | March 05, 2012 at 07:38 PM++

LOL!

I told the chick that she'd be performing an important religious tradition, but she still said no...

The DA Charles Hines will take care of business.

@SkepticalYid

I was not refering to a mohel that has a virus
I'm referring to Dr. Thomas Frieden and S.R. who want to ban the practice of metzitzah b’peh even when a healthy mohel

The Brooklyn DA has a history of letting the haredim off the hook.

Of course, if this thing were to make the big time media then it might be different.

Who, besides Aguda, Satmar, and the other usual suspects, will defend a butcher who makes a few extra bucks excising a the tip of a neonate's cock, then sucking it and slurping the blood after which he leans back, wipes his beard clean, and screams, A mekhayah!!

Surely the relatives from Long Island, after they have regained consciousness, will have some comments.

Shirley Horowitz, Retired Dietician.

I wouldn't believe it if I hadn't seen it. We went to see Herb's kid become a Jew and this wigged out nut case grabbed his dick, hacked off the end, blew him and then slurped the blood. He even made a brokho on the blow job. Oy vey iz mir.

I asked our rabbi at Temple Emanuel in Levittown but even he didn't know the prayer for giving a blow job.

Now I've seen it all, let me tell you.

Torah Jew, consider yourself lucky...had your child died from metzita b'peh, I suspect you would probably feel very differently about this issue. Think man. Try putting yourself in the shoes of the bereaved parents--if your empathic skills will let you.

@SkepticalYid

I was not refering to a mohel that has a virus
I'm referring to Dr. Thomas Frieden and S.R. who want to ban the practice of metzitzah b’peh even when a healthy mohel

Posted by: Real Jew | March 05, 2012 at 08:01 PM

the danger is there even if the mohel does not have herpes since there are many germs in the mouth

simply this was never part of the a bris it was said to do for medical reasons the Talmud say that the rambam says that

but chassidic rebbeis are not learned and all they know is my father did it and the simpletons just follow even to the detriment of their children

interesting it is the same people who scream we must do MP and the very same organization that are against the markey bill

@seymour

Although you might be right about the reasoning of MP in the Talmud, i don't think the government should be the one deciding since the risk is relativity small.


Is there a difference between freedom of religion and the right to bear arms they both are dangerous and sometimes cost lives.

Why do some of us understand that Babies who survive their abortion are allowed to be killed but a religious person is not allowed to perform a customary practice that risks exposes his infant to the herpes virus

May I suggest that you hate Chasidim and Haredi Customs?

What are the statistics? How many Jewish children died after metzitzah b’peh?

"Real Jew" said:
What are the statistics? How many Jewish children died after metzitzah b’peh?

I reply:
Only one boy out of millions was butchered by an insane murderer when the boy was enticed into the car with the psychopath. Why warn our children to not go with strangers?

In your ignorance of halacha, you obviously don't give a shit about Sanhedrin 37A. Your idiotic Eastern European "hareidi customs" override the importance of the dead baby's life.

This is a tragic case and we should learn from it even a sofek Pikuach nefesh trumps everything else especially when metzitzah is not an intrinsic part of the bris but is ironically only done to improve the healing process.
Torah Jew abortion may not be generally permitted but it is not murder we are not catholics

Robert - What does Sanhedrin 37A say?

if you want a lot of converts, hold off on the bris till boys turn 15 and have women do the MBP .

@ Robert Wisler
@ Shlomo1

my comments are not about Torah and halacha, they are about government, Dr. Thomas Frieden, and S.R. who are trying to outlaw a religious custom because they don't like to sound of it and using so called health risks as a justification

@ Robert Wisler
@ Shlomo1

my comments are not about Torah and halacha, they are about government, Dr. Thomas Frieden, and S.R. who are trying to outlaw a religious custom because they don't like the sound of it and using health risks as a justification

Real Jew, indiscriminate cock sucking is a known way of spreading serious diseases.

Too bad your community's rabbis have a compelling need to suck young boys' penises.

When science and religion clash, the most important thing is for the rabbis to keep sucking cocks.

MB is not a Torah issue or a halacha issue it is a medical issue so says the rambam and the gemaruh and many other robonum the chazan sofer

the only ones who claim differently are the chassidish rebbies who only real reason is

well my father did it, they cannot show that it is halacha necessary to do MB.

Well my father did it and his father did and so on is not a very compelling reason to put a baby in danger even if the danger is remote

seymour -

good points.

WSC- youre on a roll lately. i love it.

APC, thanks.

So I wonder if Avraham Avinu did metzitzah b'peh on himself...

As pointed out several times this practice is Halachically unjustifiable. It dates from a time when Judaism was much more flexible than it is now and it was done for the sole reason that it was thought to be MEDICALLY beneficial. We now know that this is NOT the case and it should be stopped.

The Rav of our shul is a highly-regarded talmid chacham and posek. He banned metzizah b'peh at any bris performed in his shul several years ago.

SMR, you are fortunate to have a Rav with some guts.

Please check out an article in issue 2\Winter 2012\ of DIALOGUE a new Charedi-Lite journal. There Dr. Daniel Berman basically states that MBP is not dangerous and all tlak of infection is over blown.ON page 29 he writes:"When all is said and done, there is still no evidence that Herpes simplex infectionis related to MbP. It remains and open question" and after some double talk tells us that even if it does it is rare...

Schneur, the important thing is that frumma rabbis need to keep sucking dick, and anyone who tries to stop them is against the Torah.

Posted by: ah-pee-chorus | March 05, 2012 at 11:14 PM

thanks

what is truly sad is that the argument against MP is based on halacha and from writing of previous gedolem.

Not our usual blasphemous arguments

someone on vin did make an interesting point

this whole issue is a very basic

is chazal infallible even in scientific matters. The controversy to some that Rabbi Slifkin created.

Of course to a thinking being they where not. But to some who feel otherwise, since they said to do it, then that proves that is it is not dangerous. and all evidence to the contrary is just a test created by god to test your emunha

my comments are not about Torah and halacha, they are about government, Dr. Thomas Frieden, and S.R. who are trying to outlaw a religious custom because they don't like the sound of it and using health risks as a justification

Posted by: Real Jew | March 05, 2012 at 10:33 PM
Do you think that the government had a right to loutlaw polygamy (against the mormons in order for Utah to beomce a state and now against the Muslims) or female circumcision - yes there is such a thing and it widely practiced out there in the world. Numbers - wise maybe higher than a bris and yet it is still outlawed in this country. Believe it or not - the government does outlaw certain religious practices even when they are quite traditional elsewhere. Sometimes the reason is not even "health". I believe that the uproar over this ridiculous - clearly non-halachic practice may give the anti- bris people a boost and that MP will eventaully backfire and cause problems for us all. obviously, it is just a little too close for comfort in its similarity with pedophilia. Why would anyone want to continue a practice that comes even slightly close when they cerainly dont 'have' to halachically?

sorry about the typos above, I was holding a baby boy (bris but no MP!!!) and typing with one finger.

@njprincess

I believe the government can outlaw MP the same way they outlawed polygamy, however they cant use health as the reason, unless its real and they have statistics to prove it.

And once again I think Shmarya - Dr. Thomas Frieden - Bloomberg, just cant stand Haridim and are using health as an excuse to ban a Jewish custom

When a people want to live and conduct their lives in a past era such as the 18th century and consider modern medicine to be deviltry and idoltary, then there will be instances such as this.

This is a filthy barbaric practice that has no place in this world or religion. Where are their ravs, gedolim, rebbes? I can guarantee if this happened to one of their children/grandchildren then the act would be outlawed or modified.

Those of you claiming that MP shouldn't be done becuase it has no basis in halacha are quiet hypocritical.As many poeskim will say that without MP a bris is questionable or considered as no bris still you would say that it has no basis in halacha becuase other poskim say that its ok without MP.
But that is only a front that you put up.Because many posters admittedly claim that they don't follow halacha at all.So why this halacha of not doing MP you believe so much in?
MP was one of the many things the reform movement in the early stages wanted much that Jews shouldn't follow just as they fought against other things.
If you say that you bring up reason of halacha only to challenge Jews who do the MP,just leave it up to those who do practice MP they know when and what halacha to follow.

My rav says that Torah is like a fine garment made of a single thread. If you let the goyim pull on the loose end, you soon are naked before them. MP is that thread, today, but tomorrow it can be shechita or marriage. Our message to the goyim must be that this is our business and you, goyim, must keep your hands away.

You can make jokes about metzitzah bpeh being dick sucking but we all know that's an exaggeration designed to mock the mohels. The only real dick suckers around here are the faggots like litvish and his liberal supporters willing to redefine Torah to fit their needs but not the community at large.

That being said, metztizah is an outdated practice that needs to be stopped, or, if there is a protocol that the MDs can create and sign off on to make it safe, then that should be fine too. Such a protocol would need to be developed and shown to be medically sound and eliminate this passing of the virus to the baby.

One thing is for sure, and the fags don't care about this because their sex is about getting off and not procreating - is that the babies have to come first.

Chuck Hynes will fold like a $2 Canal Street Umbrella after the usual suspects pressure him to drop the case.

Wow. I feel like we have entered the Twilight Zone. The comments at VIN (and there are many in opposition to MBP) are overwhelmingly more informed and intelligent than those here.

BiF -You are out of line i suggest you commit youreself into a lunatic asylem,youre behaving like an idiot and a mental case.

Posted by: Deremes | March 06, 2012 at 12:15 PM

the rambam clearly says that if one does not do MP the bris is ok and so does the gemurah

which poskin say otherwise

seymour,as i said i am not here to debate halacha becuase the reason you are against MP has nothing to do with the rambam,gemoru or any of the poskim.And as far what halacha is if MP needs to be done or not just leave it up to those people who follow halacha in general.Farhtiest?

Wow. I feel like we have entered the Twilight Zone. The comments at VIN (and there are many in opposition to MBP) are overwhelmingly more informed and intelligent than those here.

Posted by: Oops | March 06, 2012 at 01:03 PM

Most posters here are rather low brow. The level of trash that frequent here is more reminiscent of rednecks - angry, rabid, hateful things.

Deremes are there really Poskim who hold that without MVP the bris is invalid that seems a very strange position to hold. So if you are MO had a bris with metzitzah done with a pipette and decide to become hareidi they will ask you to have a bris again. It also seems to contradict gemorrah, Rambam and shulchan aruch.

Please check out an article in issue 2\Winter 2012\ of DIALOGUE a new Charedi-Lite journal. There Dr. Daniel Berman basically states that MBP is not dangerous and all tlak of infection is over blown.ON page 29 he writes:"When all is said and done, there is still no evidence that Herpes simplex infectionis related to MbP. It remains and open question" and after some double talk tells us that even if it does it is rare...

Posted by: schneur | March 06, 2012 at 09:38 AM

Schneur,

Danny Berman is shill for the gedolim. He's crap was refuted in 2005-2006.

Face facts – MBP kills babies, and haredi rabbis – including Chabad rabbis – don't care.

I know W4M doesn"t reply but for others is our Torah that weak or brittle as you described that you can destroy the whole edifice by pulling at one string, I have much more confidence in our eternal Torah

Posted by: Deremes | March 06, 2012 at 03:03 PM

I guess you cannot name even one who says without MP the bris is invalid

can can discuss halacha with someone who does not follow

reb meir did in the Talmud

I have seen mezizah bpeh done with a strawlike device but never direct. However if the practice is indeed dangerous for infants it should be stopped immediately. Human life is much more important in Jewish thought than mezizah bpeh.

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