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March 18, 2012

Another Case Of Metzitzah B'Peh Herpes Infection?

Bris milahNYC's Department of Health is investigating another Herpes Simplex Virus Type 1 infection of a newborn, and a source in the medical community says the infection was given to the baby by a mohel who sucked the baby's penis after cutting off the baby's foreskin.

Bris milah

Hella Winston reports in The Jewish Week:

The New York City Department of Health received a report within the last week of an infant with symptoms of neonatal herpes and the case is currently under investigation, The Jewish Week has learned. (By law, such reports must be made within 24 hours of a diagnosis).

While the health department could not confirm where the report came from or whether it involved the circumcision ritual metzitzah b’peh, a source in the medical community told The Jewish Week that a suspected case of neonatal herpes related to metzitzah b’peh, or oral suction, has been treated at Maimonides Hospital within the past week.

Eileen Tynion, a spokeswoman for Maimonides, told The Jewish Week, “we are bound by federal law (HIPAA) and can neither confirm nor deny the presence of any patient in our hospital.”

Winston also reports that Rockland County's health commissioner said the two 2009 cases there could not be linked to a particular mohel because the mohel(s) who did those circumcisions could not be identified by the health department. Why? Because haredim – including the families of the sickened infants – closed ranks to protects the mohel(s), and did not cooperate with the health department's investigation.

Comments

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I think the CDC should be called in. This has all the markings of an epidemic and the appropriate agencies should be mobilized.

maybe chassidim should be placed in cheirem. they should have the status of rodef, and the hotentot practice of metzitza bepeh should be recognised as an idolatrous practice causing chillul hashem.
yiikes!

could the crazy moyels possibly catch ebola from an infected baby? maybe they will stop if they worry about their own safety?

BetterSafe,

No epidemic.

Did you see the video in the last thread? The lady said there is more chance of getting hit by a car than dying from metzitzah b'peh. Therefore, it's worth gambling a baby's life for this wonderful tradition.

Don't you know that all those goyim made up the stuff about germs in order to stop Yidden from performing bris milah?

What is this?

Blow job du jour?

maybe chassidim should be placed in cheirem. they should have the status of rodef, and the hotentot practice of metzitza bepeh should be recognised as an idolatrous practice causing chillul hashem.
yiikes!

Posted by: Yosef ben Matitya | March 18, 2012 at 10:54 AM

The Vilna Gaon tried, but it didn't take. He was right.

The Charedi guidebook:

Don't mix meat with fish, because the Gemarrah says it may be deadly.

Do metzitzah b'peh, despite the fact that medical professionals say that it may be deadly.

amazingly on vin almost no one believes this report they just say it is made up by the Jewish week because they the Jewish week hate halacha

truly amazing. But again why should i be surprised when people broke the stories of sexual abuse they said the same thing

also rotten fish is good for you

Metzitzah n'peh needs to end immediately when the health and potentially the life of an infant is at risk. There can be no justification for this primitive and dangerous practice. When ritual and tradition takes precedence over life and health something is seriously wrong.

the health and psychological well-being of jews is of no concern to todays rabbis.
all that matters is that todays version of rabbinic judaism continues.
exactly what one would expect from a highly effective and evolved memeplex such as religion.

When ritual and tradition takes precedence over life and health something is seriously wrong.

Posted by: C Adi | March 18, 2012 at 02:50 PM

What's even more disturbing is that, ostensibly, halacha DOES put health and life above following the letter of the law. A bris is delayed or completely put off in cases where there is concern a baby is considered ill or vulnerable. We even set aside Shabbos laws in order to preserve life or health. There are legitimate halachic opinions that metzitzah isn't necessary and that metzitzah may be performed through the glass tube.

WHY do not the rebbes of the communities who cling to this come out and say, "With this information, it is necessary to do things differently"?

Even if they want to frame it as a way to keep mohelim and parents from running afoul of the law and being persecuted by the anti-Semitic civil government, why won't they step in?

@ Shoshi and SMR:

Totally 100% agree. Ive always said that the greatest hypocrisy of the frum is that despite the fact that they consider themselves to be the "true" Jews, they are violating one of the cardinal principles of Judaism. The Shulchan Aruch says that one must obey safety laws more stringently than mitzvos. If that means giving up some of their "tradition" or whatever you want to call it, then so be it.

They think the rabbis are infallible. Instead they are leading more babies to the grave.

Is there an actual mekor for a man to suck the bleeding cock of an brissed infant? It just sounds so preposterous.

Please check out the following link. The father of this so called boy who got Herpes from a mohel who did MBP emailed the hospital records to vinnews and it clearly states that after doing vigorous testing all the tests came back negative for herpes.
http://www.vosizneias.com/103092/2012/03/18/brooklyn-ny-vin-exclusive-babys-father-all-tests-for-herpes-came-back-negative

Shmarya, Please remove this Jewish Week article from your sight as there is obviously more to the story.

vinnews and it clearly states that after doing vigorous testing all the tests came back negative for herpes.

oh, yeah! it vozn't herpes. it voz bubanic plague he got.

Shmarya, Please remove this Jewish Week article from your sight as there is obviously more to the story.

Posted by: FYI | March 18, 2012 at 05:23 PM

1. It isn't clear that this is really the same case.

2. The DOH is still investigating the case and the infant was clearly seriously ill from it believes was an MBP-transmitted infection.

Both of these facts escaped VIN.

Posted by: b2b | March 18, 2012 at 06:44 PM

Do you suffer from idiocy? As I noted above:

1. It isn't clear that this is really the same case.

2. The DOH is still investigating the case and the infant was clearly seriously ill from what it believes was an MBP-transmitted infection.

Both of these facts escaped VIN – just as they escaped you.

Actually, even VIN says that it does not know if this cases and the case they're reporting are the same case.

So FYI is either lying in his comment above or he is serious reading comprehension challenged.

b2b, the father could send shmaryoo blood, stool, urine, hell the father could send shmaryoi the damn baby - nothing about some silly testing reported on VIN will get him to denounce a good story that reflects negatively on frummies.

On FM, you have to love faggots, believe that 17 kids per hour get ass fucked in mikvas across the world, and make fun of dying rabbis to be in the in crowd.

BiF -Youre the lowest trash degenerate scum that exists on this planet

b2b, the father could send shmaryoo blood, stool, urine, hell the father could send shmaryoi the damn baby - nothing about some silly testing reported on VIN will get him to denounce a good story that reflects negatively on frummies.

On FM, you have to love faggots, believe that 17 kids per hour get ass fucked in mikvas across the world, and make fun of dying rabbis to be in the in crowd.

Posted by: BiF | March 18, 2012 at 07:09 PM

Barry,

One more use of the word faggot or nigger or anything else like them and I'll ban you and delete all your comments.

Past that, do try to get that foul little mind of yours to process:

1. The baby was ill.

2. The baby has/had an infection that may or may not be HSV-1.

3. The father did not release the entire medical record.

4. VIN did not post any medical data.

5. Past this, we don't know that this is the same case the JW reported – and even VIN admits this.

So past having an extremely foul mouth and some latent sexuality issues, you're also k'mat an idiot.

Absolutely everything about MBP creeps me out to the extreme. Even the illustration that goes with this post. Look at the 4 bearded pervs eying that baby.

this is what vin said at the end of the article.

It has not been confirmed if the story in the Jewish Week refers to the baby mentioned above or a completely different case.

VIn knows that but of vins readers just did not read the end of the article because they desperately want MP to be safe since they do it their daddy did it and son


Shmarya,

All I wrote was that there is more to the story! Why are you posting an article from The Jewish Week who themselves agree they have no evidence. They are basing the whole article on a source that is vague itself. They might of heard something from someone who might of been a Medical professional. This story sounds like a story I might have overheard in the Mikva. Shmarya, did you ever do Metziza on anything???????? Until then please don't post anything about the topic as you are not experienced in the field!!!!!

Posted by: FYI | March 18, 2012 at 10:07 PM

I realize you're not the sharpest tack in the box, but do try to process.

The Department of Health says it is investigating a report of neonatal HSV-1.

Can you process that?

Does your tiny little brain function?

The VIN story may not even be the same case – WHICH VIN ADMITS.

And the test results are NOT posted.

Now toddle off.

Shmarya,

Even without the Vin story i am questioning
the Jewish Week article. The Health dept said themselves and i quote "While the health department could not confirm where the report came from or whether it involved the circumcision ritual metzitzah b’peh". Why cant you understand that this case might have nothing to do with MBP it might even be a none jew who did not have a circumcision. I don't understand how you don't understand where i am coming from and all you are trying to do is insult my intelligence.

Anybody gonna read an article from someone with credentials?!

http://www.ajopconvention.com/uploads/9/4/2/7/9427898/dialogue_1.2_final_mitzitzabepeh.pdf

The Health dept said themselves and i quote "While the health department could not confirm where the report came from or whether it involved the circumcision ritual metzitzah b’peh". Why cant you understand that this case might have nothing to do with MBP it might even be a none jew who did not have a circumcision. I don't understand how you don't understand where i am coming from and all you are trying to do is insult my intelligence.

Posted by: FYI | March 18, 2012 at 10:26 PM

Please.

Try to process. There's a sick child with an infection that appears to come from MBP. The health department apparently can't confirm or deny the cause because ALL THE TESTS AREN'T IN YET and because of HIPAA.

Your problem is that you don't get the fact that there is a sick child, and that it looks like he was sickened by MBP.

It's gonna take a mohel catching something from a baby for it to stop.

I agree with the politicians. The most important thing is the frumma votes, and Election Day will be here before you know it.

Since the frumma won't cooperate with authorities, let them keep sucking little frum boys' penises all they want. As long as the frumma are only infecting and spreading disease amongst each other, let 'em. Who cares.
Of course, they then show up at the hospital waving their Medicaid cards expecting free treatment.

WSC
You may be on to something. Maybe a viral infection will stop the bacterial infection known as Haredism.

From Matzav.com

The Matzav Shmoooze: The True Rabble-Rousers and the Anti-Metzitzah B’Peh “Rabbis”
Monday March 19, 2012 9:20 AM
Dear Editor,

Anti-bris milah fervor is back in the news. What else is new?

The “antis” are going at it full force, with the help, of course, of so-called “Jewish” and “frum” websites.

So what else is new?

But before I get to my main point, allow me to share something that has bothered me for a while. It is a point that was actually made superbly by Dr. Berman in his article on the topic of metzitzah b’peh, and I take the liberty of quoting him:

In the medical literature dealing with transmission of viral infections, DNA fingerprinting evidence is almost always presented as a way of proving that the transmission occurred from a suspected source. This involves matching the DNA found in the virus of the suspected source to that of the new case. For example, in 1990, the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) published a study proving the transmission of HIV from a dentist to five of his patients in Florida. There was very careful DNA fingerprinting of the patients’ and the dentist’s HIV strains to determine that they were all one. A 1996 article discussed the transmission of hepatitis B virus to multiple patients from a single surgeon. Fingerprinting was used in that case as well to prove that the surgeon was indeed the source. Another study in 1999 proved transmission of HIV from an orthopedic surgeon to a patient in France. Once again, DNA fingerprinting was used.

Within the body of literature dealing with the transmission of Herpes simplex, DNA fingerprinting seems to be a basic requirement of any study whose purpose is to demonstrate transmission. There is a case report of a father transmitting Herpes simplex to his son. The case report demonstrated DNA matching of the Herpes simplex lesion that the father later developed with the Herpes simplex virus that infected the baby. There is another published article reporting on an outbreak of Herpes simplex in an intensive-care nursery.

There was an index case of a baby with Herpes simplex, and ten days later, three more infants developed Herpes simplex. The four cases had DNA fingerprints of Herpes simplex which matched, indicating that they were all infected with the same virus. Although the original source was not determined, the authors felt that there was a strong possibility that person-to-person transmission to the secondary cases occurred through healthcare workers.

In the literature dealing with possible transmission of Herpes simplex through metzizah b’peh, there is not a single case in which DNA fingerprinting is presented as a way of proving transmission. By contrast, it appears that in all the other literature dealing with transmission of a virus, it is difficult to find one that does not report DNA fingerprinting. Of all the literature claiming that metzizah b’peh has transmitted Herpes simplex infection to babies, the most publicized article is the one that appeared in the journal Pediatrics in 2004. This article was authored by ten physicians and two non-physicians with Ph.D.’s. It reported on the collective experience of these physicians covering seven medical centers in Israel and one in Toronto, Canada, over a six-year period from 1997 to 2003. They collected eight cases from “personal communication and experience of the authors.” In these cases, the infants developed Herpes simplex on the male organ following a bris. There were six mohelim involved. Two mohelim had two cases each. Only four of the six mohelim were tested for Herpes simplex antibody, which would be only a starting point to even consider a mohel as the possible source. All four mohelim tested had antibodies to Herpes simplex. This is not surprising, as 90% of the adult population has antibodies to Herpes simplex. The article does not mention whether it was antibody to Herpes simplex or Herpes simplex 2, which can be measured separately. The authors concede that mouth cultures obtained from the mohelim were all negative for Herpes simplex virus, although they did not state how many cultures were obtained. (A culture shows the actual presence of virus, in contrast to antibody, which is a protein produced by the body in response to the presence of the virus).

This series of cases presented a tremendous opportunity to do DNA fingerprinting to prove that there is a link between metzizah b’peh and Herpes simplex. There were two pairs of infants who had the same mohel. In one case, the brisos were five weeks apart. The authors give no reason as to why they did not pursue DNA fingerprinting to compare the Herpes simplex virus of the two infants to establish a common source. The other pair of infants associated with one Mohel developed infection ten years apart. Since the authors did not rely on the gold standard of establishing transmission, DNA fingerprinting, one would think that the epidemiologic evidence presented would be sufficiently convincing to prove their hypothesis. Surprisingly, this is not the case. There is no mention made of whether these physicians had observed cases of Herpes simplex infection on the male organ not associated with metzizah b’peh, or whether they had treated any female babies with Herpes simplex in the genital area. In the absence of this information, the observation that there were some babies who had both metzizah b’peh and Herpes simplex proves nothing.

For more on this and other important points on the metzizah b’peh issue, read Dr. Berman’s excellent treatment of the topic.

Make no mistake: The people who were behind the anti-metzizah b’peh issue last time, some seven years ago, are behind it now. They were ruthless in their tactics then and they are not restrained any more now, using the secular media and any health department willing to listen as their allies.

And sometimes, in their eagerness, they make a mockery of themselves and the medical community.

Yesterday, the Jewish Week reported that The New York City Department of Health “received a report within the last week of an infant with symptoms of neonatal herpes and the case is currently under investigation… While the health department could not confirm where the report came from or whether it involved the circumcision ritual metzitzah b’peh, a source in the medical community told The Jewish Week that a suspected case of neonatal herpes related to metzitzah b’peh, or oral suction, has been treated at Maimonides Hospital within the past week.

Eileen Tynion, a spokeswoman for Maimonides, told The Jewish Week, ‘We are bound by federal law (HIPAA) and can neither confirm nor deny the presence of any patient in our hospital.’ This case comes on the heels of revelations that four other infants who had undergone the controversial circumcision rite of metzitzah b’peh were treated for neonatal herpes, two in Rockland County in 2009 and two more recently in New Jersey.”

The secular Jewish media can always be counted upon to be at the forefront of the anti-bris milah effort. They never miss a chance to paint our customs and rituals as archaic, dangerous and law-breaking. They love it. They relish it.

But yesterday, a three-week-old baby - seemingly the baby that was claimed to have supposedly contracted neonatal herpes at Maimonides Hospital through metzitzah b’peh - tested negative for herpes.

I’ve been searching the internet for the secular Jewish media’s updated report on this story. Nothing doing. Strange how quick some people were to report what seemed to be something that fit their agenda, but they were asleep at the wheel when it emerged that the baby’s rash, which first appeared to be a herpes infection, produced a negative result for herpes after a battery of tests, including spinal, blood and urine. Physicians say that baby might just have a severe rash or some form of infection.

Hmmm.

But don’t worry. The “rabbis” who instigated the tumult seven years ago and are back at it now won’t allow this “inconvenient revelation” to slow them down. They are walking lockstep with the secular media and their cohorts in the “health” community to go after bris milah as it has been practiced for centuries.

As Dr. Berman pointed out in his treatise, there is a strong feeling in the Jewish community that this government attack on metzitzah b’peh is a disguised attack on bris milah and more generally on Jewish ritual. For those who say, “That is ridiculous,” look no further then the ballot in San Francisco this year which had an item for the citizens of San Francisco to vote on whether to outlaw bris milah altogether.

We can sit back, as almost everyone did - with one or two exceptions - last time, and allow some “rabbis” and others to play Russian Roulette with our sacred practices, or we can awaken from our slumber and, instead of being on the defensive, go on the offensive to protect our religious practices.

The time is now.

Y. S.

Please.

Now try to process:

1. Do N-O-T post entire articles as comments. Do it again, and I'll delete what you post.

2. Danny Berman is liar. You can't have DNA fingerprinting if authorities do not have the name of the mohel or cooperation from the family and the mohel. And that's the problem in all these cases. Berman is a sick man. And mark my words, it may take awhile, but he'll be sanctioned by his medical board and probably suspended from practice.

Only the frumma can write an article justifying indiscriminate penis sucking of little boys and claim there can be no transmission of serious contagious disease.
It is so mind boggling, that it's hard to believe they are serious, like trying to argue with someone who claims the earth is flat.
Therefore, the only response is to mock them.

Berman's last paragraph:

I was zocheh to have a grandson more than one year ago. The Bris took place in the Yeshiva University Beis Midrash, where my oldest son, the father, is studying for Semichah . The Mohel was the one under attack by New York City; his son performed the MbP ; and I was the Sandak.

A YU student, no less. That may be the saddest part of the travesty that is this article.

Modern Orthodoxy is officially dead, alav hasholem.

Gary A. Gelbfish, practicing surgeon and certified mohel: "My first interaction with probable disease transmission from metzitzah b’peh (MBP) was in 1998, when an infant in my wife’s pediatric practice was treated for herpes infection of his genital area soon after a bris that included MBP."
http://www.thejewishweek.com/editorial_opinion/opinion/debating_bris_controversy_know_medical_facts

I love this one as well:

or we can awaken from our slumber and, instead of being on the defensive, go on the offensive to protect our religious practices

Right - sucking a baby's penis is a "sacred practice".

I never heard about any of this crap growing up. Chicken-swinging. Baby penis-sucking. I still can't get my mind around it.

I said this the other day - if I had any talent at all for "spirituality", if I felt there were any decent evidence for the existence of a transcendent reality, I'd go back to Buddhism. Or even become a Christian. Judaism is a dead issue for me; it has absolutely nothing I want, including eternal bliss in Gan Eden.

You frummies are an embarrassment to the human race.

Why would a diety want a week old baby to suffer excruciating pain from a scalpel cutting his penis?
All religion is severe Delusional MENTAL ILLNESS! A delusion that there is an imaginary MALE Diety who judges and punishes and rewards us for proper or improper behavior is insane!
Humans are the only creature that can contemplate their death. They fear death and cannot cope with the thought of it.
Humans cannot deal with their animal instincts and SEX, so they make up rules to cope with them and call this Religion.
Humans wrote the Torah, Bible, Koran and other holy books.
How can GOD have gender. always referred to as a MAN--HE, HIM, HIS, KING etc.? Why would god who created the sun, the earth, and formed man out of dust --need a human woman Mary to create a son? Why would god allow the torure of his son to forgive bad actions of people thousands of years later? Belief in this fantasy/fable is a delusion and total insanity!
Where was god during --Hiroshima Bomb, the holocaust? The WTC attack? On vacation?


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