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February 15, 2012

Lying To Oprah: What Hasidim Really Think About Non-Jews

Oprah and Chabad hasidic couple 2-2012Oprah Winfrey's foray into hasidic life perpetuates false stereotypes about hasidim. The best example is posted immediately below.

 

Here's what the Tanya, the 'bible' of Chabad theology written by the first Chabad Rebbe, Schneur Zalman of Liadi, actually says about non-Jews:

    מה שאין כן נפשות אומות העולם הן משאר קליפות טמאות שאין בהן טוב כלל

…The souls of the nations of the world [e.g.,non-Jews], however, emanate from the other, unclean kelipot which contain no good whatever

    כמו שכתוב בע׳ חיים שער מ״ט פרק ג׳: וכל טיבו דעבדין האומות לגרמייהו עבדין

as is written in Etz Chayim, Portal 49, ch. 3, that all the good that the nations do, is done out of selfish motives.

    וכדאיתא בגמרא על פסוק: וחסד לאומים חטאת — שכל צדקה וחסד שאומות העולם עושין אינן אלא להתייהר כו׳

So the Gemara [Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Bava Batra folio page 10b] comments on the verse, “The kindness of the nations is sin” [the biblical Book of Proverbs, 14:34] — that all the charity and kindness done by the nations of the world is only for their self-glorification…

The source of that bigotry is the Tanya, end of Chapter 1, page 5 in the bilingual edition published by the Kehot Publication Society, the official publication society of Chabad-Lubavitch, under the direct control of the then Lubavitcher Rebbe, Menachem Mendel Schneerson, in 1981, English translation by Rabbi Dr. Nissan Mindel, a senior assistant of Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson. Other sections of the book were translated by other prominent Chabad rabbis including Rabbi Nisen Mangel and Rabbi Jacob Immanuel Schochet.

The book contains extensive English language introductions by the translators and a preface written by the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, himself lauding the translations.

Chabad hasidim study a portion of the Tanya each day and complete the entire book once every year.

Etz Chaim, the source the Tanya quotes, is kabbalistic and dates from the 1500s. It was written by Rabbi Chaim Vital, the chief disciple of Rabbi Isaac Luria. Known as the Ari HaKodesh, Luria is considered to be the preeminent kabbalist of all time.

(For those who might wish to use the Rebbe, Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson's, campaign to have non-Jews follow the Seven Laws of Noah to prove Chabad's lack of bigotry, remember that the Rebbe specifically pointed out that almost all non-Jewish religions, including almost every Christian denomination, violates provisions of the Seven Laws of Noah. Only non-Jews who leave those religions and who follow the path set down in the Seven Laws of Noah, and do so exclusively and completely for the sake of properly serving God, and not for the sake of receiving any benefit, no matter how small, fall into the category of a righteous gentile. Those handful of gentiles can be called righteous. The rest of the billions of non-Jews are not righteous, and their souls are exactly as described by the Tanya above.)

But this type of bigotry is not confined to Chabad alone – it cuts across the haredi world. Here's an example from Skvere hasidus taken from Likutei Shaylos and Teshuvos, a recently published book of questions and answers asked by  Skvere yeshiva and middle school students and answered by a leading Skvere rabbi. It carries the approbations of leading Skvere rabbis and is heavily used in New Square, the hasidic village founded and populated by Skvere hasidim:

Question:  Is it appropriate to not love, or to hate, a gentile?

Answer:  A Jew is intrinsically good.  A Jew is a part of God above.  Even if at times he strays it is not because he has become evil.  It is only that there is evil within him that he has to cleanse.

However, to separate with a million degrees of separation, a gentile is an impure thing.  The entire essence of the gentile is evil and impure.  Even if he occasionally does good deeds he does not thereby become good.  As the Holy Light of Life {i.e., the author of the book Ohr HaHayyim] says regarding gentiles, even such a one who is very careful in his actions does not obtain any degree of holiness thereby.

As is also well known, even educated gentiles who guarded themselves because of their clear understanding of what is right, nonetheless failed when they were tested, because a gentile has no power for goodness within him.

On the contrary, the evil thoughts of gentiles contaminate the world’s atmosphere and create ordeals for Jewish children. As the Remnant for Pinchos {i.e., the author of the book Sheairit L’Pinchas} says, the thoughts of gentiles, even when they are dead, still linger in and contaminate the atmosphere.

He says that to be protected from this there is only one solution; to completely despise the thoughts of gentiles and to realize that all their thoughts are only evil. (Hate doesn’t mean wanting to do something to a gentile, but it means not being able to tolerate him, not being able to stand him, because of his great impurity, especially when one realizes how harmful this {impurity} is {to Jews and to the world}.) Understandably, loving a gentile is the exact opposite of this.

The Holy Light of Life {i.e., the author of the book Ohr HaHayyim} says that for a person to be totally protected from evil he must hate the thing that has caused him to sin. This is why God commanded to uproot the trees of Midian. Since the Midianites caused the Jews to sin with the Peor idol, so therefore Jews must hate everything connected to Midian. Consequently, gentiles, whose thoughts bring upon us ordeals, may be hated.

So also the Holy Light of Life {i.e., the author of the book Ohr HaHayyim} writes, in the portion of Vayigash {in his book entitled Oh HaHayyim}, that the nature of the righteous ones is to hate gentiles.

Speaking of gentiles it is worth mentioning two points. First, with respect to conversing with a gentile: a gentile is impure, as we have mentioned, and he defiles one who speaks to him and this brings evil upon a person. (Except when one is forced to do so because then, as is explained by the Enlightener of the Eyes {i.e., the author of the book Me’or Eynayim}, we thereby extract the little bit of good which has fallen into the gentile, since everything in the world is a mixture of evil and good.)

Especially if one converses with friendship, because the texts tell us that when two people speak with affection then a portion of each one’s soul becomes connected to the other and no one wants to become connected to a gentile, God forbid.  (Understandably, when one must converse one must do so like a human being.  However, in his heart one should not love him.  And it is worth knowing that “it is a well-known law that Esau [the gentile] hates Jacob [the Jew].” The gentile hates you.  It is only because of his ulterior motives that he is talking in a friendly manner, because it is in his best interests to do so at this moment, because of his job or for tens of others reasons. Even the righteous gentiles among the nations are often so because they hate inhumanity and murder but not because they love Jews.)

The second point is; one is not to concentrate on the face of a gentile. As the Willows of the Valley {the author of the book Arvei Nahal} writes on the Talmudic passage, “it is forbidden to look upon the face of an evildoer”, because the other side [the devil] {the sitra achra} cloaks himself in the guise of an evildoer and it is a danger to look at him. This passage refers to a Jew who has, God forbid, become an evildoer. Certainly, beyond any doubt, a gentile whose whole nature is essentially evil, looking at his appearance is defiling.

In the Abbreviated Set Table {Kitzur Shulkhan Arukh} it states that if one sees beautiful creatures, even a gentile, one makes a blessing. The Abbreviated Set Table {Kitzur Shulkhan Arukh}adds this is only if one caught a casual glimpse, however concentrating on a gentile is forbidden.

Once, in middle of the night, The Perfumed Bed {the author of the book Arugot Haboshem} sent a messenger to his son, the Jacob Speaks {i.e., the author of the book Vayagid Yaakov}, requesting he should immediately come over. He quickly came running and the Perfumed Bed {the author of the book Arugot Haboshem} looked upon him and told him he can now leave. He only called upon him since a gentile doctor was there earlier and he didn’t want that the last thing he sees before he sleeps to be a gentile, so he called him only to take a look at him.

Our Honorable Holy Teacher, Our Master, Our Guide, Our Rebbe [of Skver], may he live a long and good life, repeated in the name of the Maharal that gentiles are referred to as “wicked waters” while Jews are akin to fire. Naturally, when fire and water mix the water extinguishes the fire. However, when there is an iron barrier between them, for example, water in a pot, then on the contrary, the fire cooks and evaporates the water.  Similarly, if one has connections to a gentile the gentile can, God forbid, extinguish the fire in the soul. However, if one is separated in all matters then the Jewish soul will triumph.

Chabad's own Tanya translation is widely available and the bigoted section quoted above is located on page 5, meaning anyone doing simple due diligence would have noticed it.

But Oprah's producers did not.

And the same lack of responsibility is shown by Oprah's staff for almost every other issue covered in her segments on hasidic life, from the treatment of women to child safety.

What Oprah did as a result of that negligence is shameful.

It masks real problems in haredi communities and real dangers haredi children face. (Imagine being a child in a community where calling police to report a suspected child sexual abuser is a crime, a community where members who speak out against specific acts of sexual violence against children are harassed, threatened and ostracized.)

About the only blessing in Oprah's foray into hasidic life is that she did this shoddy work for her own little-watched cable network and not for her highly watched syndicated show which ended production last year after a quarter century of largely stellar work.

Comments

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There is what is written down and there is what is done. The law says you have to go 55 miles per hour, yet people go 65 miles per hour and it is acceptable.

Similarly with Jewish Law. The fact that Tanya doesn't have good things to say about Gentiles is irrelevant, because it is not practiced and when it is practiced it is condemned.

Lying to Oprah is not illegal.
Mipnei Darchei Shalom it is allowed to not tell the truth.

Its not the Tanya or skevrre it is the Talmud who said things about non-Jews as you posted above.

The gentiles would never of killed so many Jews if not for the informers yms who told them everything about the Talmuds teachings about gentiles. Your in good company with the rest of the mosrim

It is a fact and proven over the generations that gentiles in general hate Jews, Esau hates Jacob is the rule.

You are a sick dog who has no share in Olam Haba

…Similarly with Jewish Law. The fact that Tanya doesn't have good things to say about Gentiles is irrelevant, because it is not practiced and when it is practiced it is condemned.

Posted by: Betzalel | February 15, 2012 at 04:24 PM

Please.

It is NOT condemned.

And there are plenty of example of it being practiced.

Sure, all the gentiles who risked their lives or even died to save Jews during the holocaust hate jews. They only did it for selfish reasons.

You're in good company with christian and muslim supremacists who teach such things about members of other faiths.

Even the Tanya is less duhumanizing of outsiders than Christianity is.

"And the same lack of responsibility is shown by Oprah's staff for almost every other issue covered in her segments on hasidic life, from the treatment of women to child safety"

Women are treated with the greatest respect possible.
The Talmud is full in telling us how much a Jewish mother/wife is to the house.
There is much more respect in the Orthodox world towards women then in the non-Jewish world.
Unless to be seated in shull or in buses separate means disrespect then i agree. But otherwise it is a blatant fabricated lie that they are not respected.
Same is with child safety.

Ummmm

Doesn't the Tanya quote the Etz Chaim - a kabbalistic tract as well as the Talmud, an ancient tract otherwise known as the Oral Law. It's not his innovation - duh!

For real?

Deremes. Show me one source or person who has condemned a phrase of the bal hatanya or of the gemarah. You can't pick and choose what fits to your agenda. Either you quote it all or you condemn it. Its not a shmorg where u can say I like this and not this

bmg cofee room,
Im taking a different route here.
All i was saying that its NOT something the Tanya said (the reason why the Tanya is mentioned HERE is becuase chabad)but it originates from the Talmud and evil Jewish mosrim informed the gentiles about quotes of the Talmud and Jews were slaughtered maimed and killed becuase of the mosrim,yemach shemom vezichrom.

It is a fact and proven over the generations that gentiles in general hate Jews, Esau hates Jacob is the rule.

Posted by: Deremes | February 15, 2012 at 04:31 PM

could be the way one treats the gentiles that could be the reason. You treat them as if they are beneath you and then shocked that they strike out

why not try a real experiment trade them in action and attitude as equals and see how they respond

The gentiles would never of killed so many Jews if not for the informers yms who told them everything about the Talmuds teachings about gentiles. Your in good company with the rest of the mosrim

It is a fact and proven over the generations that gentiles in general hate Jews, Esau hates Jacob is the rule.

Posted by: Deremes | February 15, 2012 at 04:31 PM

you said it is is just a reaction to what the Talmud says about gentile then the blame is with the Talmudic scholars

Oprah Winfrey talks sex with hasidic women

Media mogul meets with religious women in Brooklyn to discuss Jewish lifestyle, sexual practices

Ynet

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4189744,00.html

Do anybody really think that chabadniks are going to reveal their real feelings towards the goyim to someone like Oprah? After all, they as well as Jews in general, are a tiny minority in this country. There are many things that one must do for darchei shalom, in order to get along and not stir up the majority against us. Even worse than saying negative things about goyim is to write them down in print where they endure. Fortunately, almost all of the books which deal with this subject are written in a language that they simply don't understand (Hebrew, Yiddish or Aramaic). Things would be a lot worse on this front if these words and thoughts were ever translated into the vernacular.

Chabad, how do they do it! Despite all attempts to bring them down they still attract the celebrities and the funds.

Way to go Oprah!

The army of hashem marches on!

I wonder how many truly believe this hateful words and ideas.

It is one thing to study it, but do people really think people actually believe that gentile are all evil and cannot be good and so on.

I heard that as a kid but never really believed it.


could be the way one treats the gentiles that could be the reason. You treat them as if they are beneath you and then shocked that they strike out

why not try a real experiment trade them in action and attitude as equals and see how they respond

Posted by: seymour | February 15, 2012 at 05:06 PM

Riiiight. I guess the reason for all the pogroms, crusades, blood libels, Chelminicki, the holocaust, etc etc was because of the way Jews treated non-Jews. You probbaly believe it's a ll the Jews fault six million of us were murdered. According to Seymour, we just should have been nicer to the Nazis throwing us into the ovens....

These "apparent" slurs against non Jews are just that.

Check out the Rebbes' writings clarifying this:
Likkuti Sichos Vol8 P345 & Vol 35 Pages235-238

Also see the work of the fifth Lubavitcher Rebbe Rabbi Sholom Dov Ber in his work B'Sho'o sh'Hikdimu Chapter 374


Also Sanhedrin 59a where a righteous non Jew ie one who observes the 7 Noachide laws is compared to a High Priest!!!!!

The disgracefull things spoken about non Jews are spoken by by the ill informed.Many of those ill informed parade around in Kapotas.

It is outrageous when the self appointed guardians of our religion besmirch it through their own ignorance &/or prejudices

"The souls of the nations of the world [e.g.,non-Jews], however, emanate from the other, unclean kelipot which contain no good whatever" - Tanya

It's interesting that the Tanya, to the best of my knowledge, never says to hate Gentiles. The above quote is presented as a perhaps unfortunate fact, but not as a reason to treat Gentiles condescendingly.

Gentlemen,the source of biological racism in Judaism is that pagan forgery called kaballah.The Talmud expresses mixed attitudes towards gentiles,but it does not define one a gentile or a jew according to nazi-like ideas like the neshamah of goyim being like that of animals,etc.
Kabalistica rabbis are real racists:I know one who even said that a ger who converts to Judaism is NOT a Jew because he was born by the womb of a lower rank creature and not by a Jewess who has the divine spark in her!Non kabalistic Jews don't hold that view,afaik.....

Your trick- incitement- against "jews" (NOT chasidim) could've been done without mentioning the later "achroinim".

You could of just told them about the "Laav" of "loi sechunaim" לא תחנם or you could of written the story of Rabbi Shimoin bar Yochai why he had to hide from the Romans for 12 years.

But I guess that you still wanted to save "face" for the "jews in name only" and lay the "blame" on chariedim and Kabalah.

While "kdusha" and "Tumah" can much better be explained for gentiles , because what's kedusha for a "goy" is Tumah for a jew and vice versa.
But you would had a much harder day to explain simple psukim in Tanach for them.

The only conclusion I can take out of this.
That for me you were never a constructive critisizer, but you always pretended to be.
But with this article you wanted to come out in public and say it yourself.

Chabad, how do they do it! Despite all attempts to bring them down they still attract the celebrities and the funds.

Way to go Oprah!

The army of hashem marches on!

Posted by: Confused | February 15, 2012 at 05:19 PM

You are a liar, and not a very good one.

You tell us you aren't Haredi, merely that you dislike seeing entire groups vilified - then you erupt, sporadically, with statements like this.

You are a liar and a moron, and I agree with Abracadabra - Shmarya should ban you.

מרדכי סטמר-That for me you were never a constructive critisizer:
its not constructive critisizer, it is constructive critic, fershteist,otherwise for a satmerer youre pretty good at english me i speak 5 languages good at none:)

Confused-Hashem has no army it has mindless robots drones like you

The fact that Tanya doesn't have good things to say about Gentiles is irrelevant, because it is not practiced and when it is practiced it is condemned.


It is a book that is central to the chabad set of beliefs, they raise their kids on it and are fond of propagating it in any shul foolish enough to allow them in.
And no, they -chabad- does not condemn it!
Stop kidding your self. And if you know what I am saying, stop trying to mislead others!

"Its not the Tanya or skevrre it is the Talmud who said things about non-Jews as you posted above. said Deremes."

True, the talmud says many things and their contradictions. However it is the chosidim sheuytim that make these aberrations iqqar of their wayward religion.

"It is a fact and proven over the generations that gentiles in general hate Jews, Esau hates Jacob is the rule."

In scientific parlance, such beliefs are generated by paranoia.

"It's interesting that the Tanya, to the best of my knowledge, never says to hate Gentiles. The above quote is presented as a perhaps unfortunate fact, but not as a reason to treat Gentiles condescendingly."
says BK

no, of course not, BK, always, behind their back!

My, Shmarya, I see that this is one of your favorite Tanya quotes. According to a Google search, you've recited it no less than 11 times on this site!

http://www.google.com/search?num=50&hl=en&safe=off&site=&q=%22The+souls+of+the+nations+of+the+world%22+site%3Afailedmessiah.typepad.com&btnK=Google+Search&oq=&aq=&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=

I suppose it is a limmud zechus that you at least learn some Tanya ba'al peh, or so they much be chuckling in 770.

Seriously, though, this passage taken from the Tanya is one of many maamrei hazal that in today's age would be considered inappropriate and offensive, not unlike the many anti-Semitic and other pronouncements of Martin Luther, and especially the Roman Catholic Church, that, if you remember you history (or at least Mel Brook's History of the World Part II) used to have people tortured and burned at the stake.

It's beyond the bounds of fairness to take a 200 year old extract and apply it willy-nilly to a modern religious movement that has, like the rest of us, grown beyond the ethos of the 18th and earlier centuries.

The passage, put in an historical context of violent oppression against Jews in Europe over many centuries and especially under the Tsars in the Pale of Settlement, is clearly a cry from the oppressed and wretched of the earth and should be understood in that context.

For the mystically minded Jew of Eastern Europe, or of an Ottoman millet, the gentile who oppresses, massacres or confiscates, etc., as the case may be, can hardly be a part of the good God to whom all Jews pray, and by their evil actions can hardly have a place in the World to Come. To the medieval mind, I am sure it makes imminent sense that the souls of these oppressors lacked even an iota of godliness. So?

I can imagine the korbonot at Treblinka and a score other Nazi camps cursing the Nazis together with the goyim who aided them, and I am all but sure they would to a man (or woman) agree in spirit with SZ's assessment of Goyim and evil, if they hadn't yet abandoned belief in God altogether.

In this context, SZ's message was not one of hate, but despair and ultimately hope... hope that the Jew, amid the persecutions of crusading church and marauding cossack, is truly special because he/she possess a soul that is חלק אלוה ממעל ממש in contrast with the evil persecutors whose souls, owing to their despicable acts, must necessarily stem from the utter depths of depravity.

Your ancestors, and mine, were refugees from that bad, old Europe, as were JIS, MMS and much of American and Commonwealth Jewry, not to mention almost the entire Jewish population of the State of Israel.

Even academics who study Chabad and note the severe anti-Gentile tone of Schneur Zalman, conversely note the universalist message of the late Rebbe MM Schneerson who brought a message of hope and redemption to Jew and Gentile alike, and made this a key and highly public part of his messianic mission to hasten the Redemption.

Paradoxically, SZ was well regarded by in his own time by leading factions of the Russian nobility, and he/his family was given hereditary state honours for his active opposition to Bonaparte. That came after much travail, including his vindication against charges of treason in the famous episode still celebrated by Habad Hasidism today.

This does not mean racism and racist sentiments do not exist (on both sides) of Crown Heights' metaphorical railroad tracks. But there is no need to (repeatedly!) flame them as you do with spurious and out of context quotations from 200 year old texts that you clearly are unable to put in any constructive context.

jochanan writes: Even the Tanya is less duhumanizing of outsiders than Christianity is.

Actually, no. It isn't. According to Christianity EVERYONE starts off with the same condition, sin. Everyone has the same remedy, worshiping Jesus. Those who have never heard of Christianity are judged by their people's standards.

Tanya is purely racist. Anyone who is a Jew is good even if he does bad things. All goy-filth are evil even if they occasionally do good things.

When a child is grumpy and complains about something stupid it is usually because something else is really bothering him.

The reason that Shmerel is so upset and wining about this Oprah thing is because he feels that Oprah's producers should have reached out to "the leading anti-jewish jew - Shmerel", but instead Oprah's people did the right thing and ignored the hate monger that is Shmerel.

boo hoo, get over it Shmerel, you are irrelevant to most of the world.

Personally I like your hate blog, it provides many laughs reading your clueless posts..

Keep it up! You have a future in satirical humor.

Chabad has a penchant for being duplicitous on this issue. If you read Moshe Weiner's book on the Sheva Mitzvot B'nai Noach (Heb.edition), he makes it abundantly clear that Christianity is definitely idolatry.

Posted by: A E ANDERSON | Eden Terrace, Auckland, New Zealand | February 15, 2012 at 07:16 PM

Please.

Bad apologetics and lies won't cover for this.

Schneur Zalman was "well regarded" by Russian nobility because he spied for them against Napoleon, not because they loved his personality or his theology, and that spying is where Chabad's hereditary benefit came from.

Past that, the Rebbe was certainly coy in the way he dealt with this issue, but he clearly did not repudiate the Tanya's anti-gentile theology and, as I noted above in my post, his discussions referring to non-Jews goodness were clearly based on them accepting Judaism's special laws for them called the Seven Laws of Noah.

Once the messiah comes, non-Jews will serve Jews. That's what Orthodox/haredi Judaism says, and the Rebbe never repudiated that, either.

He just shifted that service from slavery to a form of junior partnership or employment.

Lastly, haredim take these "200 year old extracts" seriously.

They are not filed away in some dusty corner and left to mold. They are studied every day.

And they are not repudiated.

And let the hevra in 770 cluck all they want.

The truth is the truth.

Lets face it the chineese saying that the nail that sticks out must be knocked down applies to us jews as a people we stuck out in europe and all the places where jews lived and the goyim knocked us down it is a natural thing you cant stop nature we as jews like to stick out with hassidishe gard or in manners lets face it

Posted by: ws | February 15, 2012 at 05:38 PM

wow do you know how to twist words.

i did not say anything of the sort.

All i said if you treat goyim like the Talmud tanya and others said you should. You should not expect the other to treat you as equal

as far as the other stuff that is a whole different issue.

but one cannot expect to be treated as equal in a country when you feel the hosts do not have a soul

forget about the tanya- Did anybody else notice what kind of bitch this wife is?? Watch the show and you will see how she wont let her husband talk!! Shut up you ugly thing!

i see in the video a bunch of robotisized automatons in other words goilems

Oprah new what she was doing? It's all about money and ratings. Imagine if Oprah would of been agressive with her questioning in their home.

What Hasidim Really Think About Non-Jews

It is very important that we get this information and message out to the gentiles. Maybe they can take care of the "Hasidim" problem for us.

but one cannot expect to be treated as equal in a country when you feel the hosts do not have a soul Posted by: seymour | February 15, 2012 at 08:12 PM
-------

Now I can "SEE" the awe on the face of the jewish "professor" in Berlin University, when he was ordered to put on his yellow star of david!
And his shock on his face when he was standing in the line "together" with the "moronic jew" who "thought" that a "goys" soul is impure and evil, to be helped uncloth on the way to the gas chambers.


Jews were always "expected" to act as outcasts from the general society!
NOT part of it!
And for sure not the "oiber shtiesl"!

You probbaly believe it's a ll the Jews fault six million of us were murdered. According to Seymour, we just should have been nicer to the Nazis throwing us into the ovens....

Posted by: ws | February 15, 2012 at 05:38 PM

You do realize that 11 million civilians died in the Holocaust, don't you?

Oh that's right, the gentile deaths totally slipped your mind. I guess you didn't want to contaminate your spirituality by "concentrating" on gentiles.

Gentiles also died in the crusades, Inquisition, and gentile-on-gentile attacks throughout Europe in the last 2000 years.

Bigot.

You guys who say that the gentiles have murderous baseless hatred of Jews (misinterpreting the "Esav sonei le'Yaakov" thing) only need look at the way that the Chabadniks treated the decent, hardworking, and welcoming gentiles of Postville. How the Borough Park sluts treat their Polish maids. How the Jews of Crown Heights treat their black neighbors And you blame the gentiles for hating Jews????

Rubashkin practiced the Tanya

His abuse of his workers can be explained away by his workers were not really human but rather a higher form of a monkey

I have a hard time with the proof text that the Baal HaTanya brings from Reb Chaim Vital.
All Reb Chaim Vital says is that as a general rule Gentiles who work to improve the world are doing it for their own sake - for their own benefit, and not necessarily to benefit Jews. That's a fair statement. Its based on the Talmud in the beginning of Avoda Zara.
I am befuddled as to how the Baal HaTanya extrapolates from there that all Gentiles come from a bad klipa and are inherently bad.

Bigot.

Posted by: Eva | February 15, 2012 at 10:55 PM
-----
When one of your own family is involved in terrible accident, you don't care if more then 100 people died together with him.
You grieve for one of your own!
You don't even think of the rest!
Idiot!
When my grandmothers family of 10 were wiped out!!!!
Do I care if 100,000 civilians died in Hiroshima?!
Or another 100,000 "civilians" died in Drezden overnight?!!

You insane tipush!

Thus Sayeth Deremes:
"Lying to Oprah is not illegal.
Mipnei Darchei Shalom it is allowed to not tell the truth."
So true, so true. But you failed to mention the second half of the Chabad dogma:
"Lying to the IRS is not illegal. Mipnei Darchei Mamon it is allowed to not tell the truth."

I emailed Oprah about these lies and she said that Chabad paid her cash, and Lifshutz from the Yated threatened to put out a ban against her.

That must be he reason why she did not talk to shmerel about his hate blog.


When one of your own family is involved in terrible accident, you don't care if more then 100 people died together with him.
You grieve for one of your own!
You don't even think of the rest!
Idiot!
When my grandmothers family of 10 were wiped out!!!!
Do I care if 100,000 civilians died in Hiroshima?!
Or another 100,000 "civilians" died in Drezden overnight?!!

You insane tipush!

Posted by: מרדכי סטמר | February 15, 2012 at 11:44 PM

You're the only tipush here.

You claimed that the Jews were the only targets in the gentile-perpetrated Holocaust, when 5 million others (all gentiles) and TWO ethnicities (Polish and Romany) were specifically singled out for genocide. In fact, in Poland the civilian Slavic/Jewish murder ratio was 1:1.

If a member of one's family is killed in a terrible accident, you grieve together with the families of the 100 others who were killed with him. You don't say that he was the only one killed, and you certainly don't erect a hierarchy of suffering.

I can imagine the shock on the "Jew's" face who thought a goy's soul was impure and evil (and a Jew was born better than the most righteous gentile)--- as the Jew's hair was cut by a kapo with the same razor that cut some cremated gentile's hair.

All Reb Chaim Vital says is that as a general rule Gentiles who work to improve the world are doing it for their own sake - for their own benefit, and not necessarily to benefit Jews. That's a fair statement.Posted by: ultra haredi lite | February 15, 2012 at 11:44 PM

Is it a fair statement?

Seymour: I wonder how many truly believe this hateful words and ideas.
--------------------------------------
All such statements from literature (particularly esoteric religious literature) should be evaluated in the context of how these ideas are implemented.

Israel is not in debt to ChaBaD and has no future being part of ChaBaD.

What the Tanya seems to be saying is that people have the same souls as other primates. In other words we are just another set of mammals. Sure humans are more evolved but that is neither here nor there.

That's not an objectionable position to my mind. The Hitch was fond of referring to us all as mammals.

Whether Jews have an additional soul or are in some other way better than any other mammals is where objectionable thinking comes in.

But that thinking is not, by any means, unique to chabad.

If you wish to throw stones at this one then most Jews ought to be your target.

"When one of your own family is involved in terrible accident, you don't care if more then 100 people died together with him."
You do not speak for me.
Your only hope is that your offensive views are limited to idiotic fools.
The irony that the famous Neimoller poem needs to be read by someone claiming to be a Jew...

First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.

If you wish to throw stones at this one then most Jews ought to be your target.

Posted by: Haimish McHorny | February 16, 2012 at 04:40 AM

Most frum Jews, certainly. Unfortunately, this belief appears to be ubiquitous throughout the frum world, among everyone but the most liberal Modern Orthodox.

The more I interact with them, individually and collectively, and the more I learn about the particulars of their beliefs - the more I come to dislike them.

Personally I like your hate blog, it provides many laughs reading your clueless posts..

Keep it up! You have a future in satirical humor.

Posted by: Moshe MS | February 15, 2012 at 07:28 PM

Translation: "I can't face the truth about my belief system or my community, so I'll ridicule you in an attempt to convince myself you're wrong."

Maybe the Tanya is right, but we understand it wrong and judge to fast other human beings. Let's think about this solution:
First we have the lost tribes, which spreaded over the whole world and mingeled with the nations, than we have thousands and thousands of jewish children, that were abducted in the middle ages and at other times. All this contributes to millions, if not billions of jewish neshamot being inside what we call today "gentiles" , but in truth they are not from the "3 unclean klipot" but from kedusha. So who can say today honestly, that the nice "non-jewish" neighbour is in truth not a jew? what i mean is, that we try to judge with external parameters internal phenomena and this will fail for sure. So the Alter rebbe, Kabbalah, Gemara can be right, but our way of discernment and judgment is not correct and that's why we oppose their view. Warning: i didn't want in any way to justifiy the ways of the today chabad chassidim and in a lot of things i am opposed to their mindset and way of action. I Just wrote this in manner to broaden the generell view of the readers. thank you.


All Reb Chaim Vital says is that as a general rule Gentiles who work to improve the world are doing it for their own sake - for their own benefit, and not necessarily to benefit Jews. That's a fair statement.Posted by: ultra haredi lite | February 15, 2012 at 11:44 PM

Is it a fair statement?

Posted by: Eva | February 16, 2012 at 01:26 AM

No. The Baal HaTanya understands and quotes R. Chayim Vital correctly (whether you agree or not). Etz Chayim 49:3 is clear. The souls of non-Jews come the unclean qlipot. The good news is that in the days of the messiah, the gentile women that King Solomon unsuccessfully attempted to "rectify" will be redeemed.

Sorry: meant to write "...come FROM the unclean qlipot."

Yes it is a fair statement - no different than if I built something truthfully for my personal benefit and you happened to gain from it - could I then claim that I built it for you? Of course not.

If you read the quote above from Reb Chaim Vital you will not see a word about klipot - perhaps elsewhere.

When one of your own family is involved in terrible accident, you don't care if more then 100 people died together with him.
You grieve for one of your own!
You don't even think of the rest!
Idiot!
When my grandmothers family of 10 were wiped out!!!!
Do I care if 100,000 civilians died in Hiroshima?!
Or another 100,000 "civilians" died in Drezden overnight?!!

You insane tipush!
------------------
Stupid liar. If that were true, every Jew would say 10 people die din the Holocaust, or 5 people, or 20 people (naming only the number of people in their family that died. ) But Jews say 6 million. Why? Because they are grieving for ALL of them. And Eva is right. We should be grieving for even more. 11 million.

Maybe the Tanya is right, but we understand it wrong and judge to fast other human beings.

Or maybe it's just a load of crap.

my cat just stopped me from typing what I was going to say on this issue. I think she is absolutely right. Better to remain silent.

What Hasidim Really Think About Non-Jews

What are some of the major, non-Jewish blogs or web sites where this message can be posted.

It is clear that taking down the Hasidim will be virtually impossible to do from within, we need the help from the non-Jews and this could stir them to act. The only concern that I have is how to contain their anger from spilling over to us, the good Jews.

This is tricky because it did not work for the secular Jews in Germany. To Hitler if you were a Jew you were toast, secular, Hasidim, it did not matter.

I really think we have a opportunity but don't want to blow it by having it backfire.

Any help in how to proceed would be appreciated.

Lets be honest Shmaryah, Chabad Rabbi in the video IS telling the TRUTH. Everything he is saying is also a part of Chabad ideology.

You may wonder how these two diametrically opposite approaches could harmonically exist in one's head, but the DO and YOU KNOW IT.

Therefore your article here is just a hatefull propaganda with no good purpose.

Posted by: Eva | February 16, 2012 at 01:17 AM

yep

look at the 9/11 ceremonies for families do you ever see a frum Jew there?

@jeff
stop lashon hara and read all what i wrote.
i thought, that there are rational people her .. but ...

Posted by: מרדכי סטמר

When one of your own family is involved in terrible accident, you don't care if more then 100 people died together with him.
You grieve for one of your own!
You don't even think of the rest!
Idiot!

Woah, way to dismiss the horrible death of 5 million non-jewish human holocaust victims, or just any dead human being in general.

When my grandmothers family of 10 were wiped out!!!!
Do I care if 100,000 civilians died in Hiroshima?!
Or another 100,000 "civilians" died in Drezden overnight?!!

No, you don't, apparently. No, you are not enforcing the stereotype of the selfish, "us only" Jew, no at all.

Well, selfish extremist Chareidim "us only" Jew, in your case.

You insane tipush!

He may that be, but at least he is a caring human being, bubbeh.

Did anyone listen to the one-minute video clip?

The rabbi does not give Oprah a straight answer. Why? Because Chasidic and Charedi Jews see other religions as WRONG. Not that there is anything that they believe Jews are supposed to do about it (unlike other religions that have a value of converting others to their religion). But in all streams of Ultra-Orthodoxy there is not a respect held out for other religions. There is a respect for other HUMAN BEINGS - as created in the image of God (except as illustrated by the sources Shmarya quoted above, their souls are considered LESSER Human Beings). But respect for other religions is NOT a value in Ultra-Orthodoxy. It's unfortunate, but true.

And ask any 10-year-old child in a Chassidish, Yeshivish or Chareidi school how Jews compare to non-Jews, and they will tell you the hierarchy of the souls of Jews vs non-Jews. It is one of the most horrible things that is taught to frum children.

Thankfully the Modern Orthodox and other streams of Judaism don't subscribe to that disgusting, racist idea, and do not teach it to their children.

And A.E. Anderson - I would accept your apologetics if it were not currently taught to boys and girls in our day and age as it was written 200 years ago. But it is taught that way, so, what you write about context is worthless. No one is persecuting Jews nowadays, and there is no reason to teach that racism to children today, and yet it is taught and continues to be propogated in all of it's disgustingness. Domaiym, Tzomaiyach, Chai, Medaber, Yehudi. (I still know it by heart from my indoctrination and I didn't even get straight A's in school!)

Posted by: Moshe MS

Personally I like your hate blog, it provides many laughs reading your clueless posts..

No, you don't. You hate it with the passion of a thousand fiery suns, that's why you post snide, dismissive little posts like that.

You lost the argument at the word "hate".

Posted by: who knows

Lets be honest Shmaryah, Chabad Rabbi in the video IS telling the TRUTH. Everything he is saying is also a part of Chabad ideology.

Yes, and the German Socialist Party also believed the Jews were "unclean" and worth to be "hated". At least they were open about it, and not hiding behind a veil of a "benevolent" religion belief.

Therefore your article here is just a hatefull propaganda with no good purpose.

Again with the "hate" argument.

...no good purpose

No, its got the good purpose of showing to the world the disdain it has against non-jews, and that's something I didn't know about.

look at the 9/11 ceremonies for families do you ever see a frum Jew there? Posted by: seymour | February 16, 2012 at 07:17 AM
--------
I took my children-the first month it was open for preview-
to the 9-11 memorial.


And what I said about the jews killed in the holocaust.

All jews are considered family.(And you guys are constantly contradicting yourselves! Do you want I should consider you as a jew or not? Is there "any" difference between a jew and gentile? Make up your minds!)

Of course we feel deeply sorry when a tsunami hits Japan or Haiti.
Or a genocide is in process in Rwanda or Bosnia.
But when "my Jewish family" were rounded up and killed.
We "can't" process the thought that there were more people who were also killed.

Btw the whole commercialising of the holocaust is NOT a chariedi thing!
It was created for the sole purpose to cater to the zionist movement.

Who was who said that all the standing ovations for Bibi in congress, were bought and paid by the "jewish" lobby?

What I take out of all those comments here. Is that you want me to consider you guys as the same as gentiles, being born by jewish parents doesn't mean anything to you,
So from now on "jews in name only" will be in my eyes the same as "goyim". Because this is your "will".

Sol. You are a sick dude!
And Shmaryah should be very proud of you!

Posted by: מרדכי סטמר | February 16, 2012 at 08:57 AM

maybe you can explain why many chariedi say the holocaust was punishment from god because of Zionist satmar more than others

in addition chariedi use the holocaust over and over to excuse many of their behavior.

not going to then police keeping every internal not complying with many laws etc.

to A E ANDERSON.not wishing to be outright rude. you sprout mendacious nonsense,. if you are actually living in new zeeland you are in the right place to be, newzeeland has a hand full of jews who are hopefully brighter in the brains department than you are. where i live chabad is growing as fast as weeds in an unattended garden, it is displeasing to wathch this tempesyous growth but they know how to raise money by any means and use their gains to pervert judaism to their messianic beliefs.go put on your tephilim and pray your brain receives some koach.

Important Rules!!

1) Do nor return their lost objects.
2) Do not make them aware of their error
in a financial transation.
3) Do not return their loan.
4) Do not desecrate the Shabbos to save
the life of their child.
5) Do not include their sick and needy in
your prayers.
6) Do not pay them if your Ox damages
their property.
7) Do wait for Moshiach so they can be
your slaves.
8) Do encourage your children to call
their children, Shegets, Shiksah.
9) Do explain to your children that they
do not die, they Peiger.
10) Do make sure to always use the word
L'Havdil.

What are some of the major, non-Jewish blogs or web sites where this message can be posted.

It is clear that taking down the Hasidim will be virtually impossible to do from within, we need the help from the non-Jews and this could stir them to act. The only concern that I have is how to contain their anger from spilling over to us, the good Jews.

What a crock of anti-Semitic self-hating piece of shit. Thee goyim hate us, all of us, as was shown in Germany. You are deluding yourself if you think that the goyim could be made to hate only the hassidim and still like the rest of the Jews.

Goyish hatred of Jews has deep roots from the blood libels to the death of Jesus. Many even today are angry at us for diverting funds to Israel.

Be smart and shut your mouth, your plan WILL backfire!

Posted by: seymour | February 16, 2012 at 09:04 AM
--------
When people of faith see something of the magnitude of the holocaust happening,(please explain me as an "atheist", how come the most modern country in an era so advanced,their people were "all" turned into cold bloodied mass murderers? Built advanced factories to "accommodate" 12,000! People a day!!!).

automatically they will believe that G-D wanted to say "something".

And when you see that the most harsh words אני מתיר את בשרכם כצביות וכאילות השדה used by a prophet, for when jews will try to escape exile!
And exactly this happened. Of course you "have to" contribute (at least partially) the cheapness of jewish blood to the zionist movement.

And now that you see how Iran is talking and behaving-and the whole world knows their intentions- aimed at whom?!!
It only "confirms" our belief that the holocaust and zionism has "some" connection.
(did you see todays news about Pearl's assessment that "anti zionism" is a much more dangerous threat than "anti semitism"?)

Relationships within a particular society are generally based on co-operation and trust. So for example, the powerful within a society will protect their young and their old.

Relationships outside the society however are generally based on competition. So you attack the weak because you can and you fear the strong because you can be sure they will take advantage of your weakness.

So the USA with its constitution protected its own from its earliest days. However it showed no compunction in taking from Mexico whilst Canada (which had the backing of the then powerful British) was left alone. (Of course in Mexico happened to be stronger than the US it would have taken from the US).

These simple and obvious facts put Jews in a difficult situation with the following options.

1) They can pretend that the competition rule does not apply in general and they can maintain a primitive and pre-modern existence as a minority outside society without having to fear attack.

2) They can accept that in general the competition rule does apply however as long as they keep mitzvos, God will protect them notwithstanding their backward and primitive minority status.

Unfortunately the Holocaust showed the inevitable dangers of maintaining a weak minority status within a strong majority culture hungry for your resources

If you take the view that being a minority leaves you open to attack and that God does not provide protection, you need to become part of the majority or form a new society in which you are a majority strong enough to defend yourself.

You become part of a majority by assimilation. You assimilate into the stronger majority society. If that stronger society does not wish to assimilate you then you must either seek to force change on that society so it accepts you(eg such as Russian Jewish communists) or emigrate to one that will (such as Jews from Russian to the USA). Such assimilation however will inevitably lead to the end of communal Judaism in its traditional form.

An alternative to assimilating into another society is to form your own majority society strong enough to protect itself. Such a society will have to accept modernity to a great extent to have the economic and military means of protecting itself from attack. This in essence is the Zionist project.

The Hareidi hate for the goyim is a necessary pre Holocaust weapon against the possibility of assimilation. In effect the argument is that you cannot change the majority attitude in your society or find an alternative society by emigration which will ever accept you so you can just as well not bother trying. The goyim (be they German or American) will never let you share the benefits that modernity gives them and you will not be safer than you are now.

However history shows that if you are prepared to assimilate fully (and that mean marrying out) you (and your offspring) will be accepted. Society may also accept long term assimilation so for example US Reform Jews are tolerated because majority society knows that their offspring will be assimilated.

I'm not sure what the issue is here.

For millenia, I think right about the time dirt was invented, goyim have spead every evil lie about Jews imaginable, like we kill gentile babies for their blood to make matzah, that we have horns, that we control the wealth, I mean history is replete with the lies shit-ass goyim have told about Jews.

So this guy gives a polite reply and there's a problem with that? What did you want him to do, ask her to clean the ovens and toilets and say, listen Oprah, where we come from niggers are maids so get busy?

what about an article "what do the goyim really think about chasidim" ?

in every religion there are theoretical lines that are not practiced in fact

However history shows that if you are prepared to assimilate fully (and that mean marrying out) you (and your offspring) will be accepted

Not true, marrying out will mean that after a generation or two you will cease to exist as Jews. The purest form of assimilation - assimilate yourself to extinction.

"please explain me as an "atheist", how come the most modern country in an era so advanced, their people were "all" turned into cold bloodied mass murderers?"
Posted by: מרדכי סטמר | February 16, 2012 at 09:49 AM

This is a fair question, and one can appreciate why you would ask. As atheists, evil does not come naturally to us. Fortunately, religious texts are a guide to perpetrating vile evil deeds.
I love this quote:
“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
― Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion
And the book just gets better and better after this part....

For Eva:

While it is true that not all victims of the holocaust were Jews, every Jew was a target. Your feeble attempt to marginalize the unprecedented enormity of the Jewish holocaust is merely a reflection of your insulting, hackneyed, simplistic and suspicious application of simple arithmetic to an evil of immeasurable proportions. In effect your argument proves nothing but it does leave one wondering whether or not you are actually Jewish.

Posted by: מרדכי סטמר

I took my children-the first month it was open for preview-
to the 9-11 memorial.

Wow, and that absolves you of treating alive and dead non-Jews as trash?. You want a cookie for that?.

You gave disdain to the rest of the 5 million dead on the Holocaust (and other war dead) on your posts, and you dare throw your sanctimonious rants back at the rest of the people on this thread with a passing mention of 9-11?.

But when "my Jewish family" were rounded up and killed, we "can't" process the thought that there were more people who were also killed.

What are you, a non-thinking, heartless automata?. How can you dismiss the overall 11 million number just to concentrate on just your "my Jewish family"?. Oh, yes, the Tanya.

"We "can't" process the thought". Then extricate the Tanya out of your posterior, it will give you more room for feelings.

What I take out of all those comments here. Is that you want me to consider you guys as the same as gentiles

Perish the though on joining the Human race there, bubbeh. Just stick with the "Us, Us, Us!" only mentality, it's really working good for you and your tribe.

Barry:

First of all, I appreciate your honesty, what the reform movement is all about!
And no one can deny their absolute success!
I think their youth assimilation rate is close to 60 percent!
Its nice to see that once in a while someone comes out in the open, and admits that the reform movement was NOT about creating a new "form" of jewishness.
Its a grand scheam to "assimilate" the jews with the Goyim!

The anti semites "mockery" of jews are indeed mostly directed against the "primitive" jews.

But their "hostility" and "anger" is directed at jews who "allegedly" control the central banks, universities,medical fields, justice system, state department,hollywood,sports and the media.

Of course when they want to "mock" the big shots, they will remind the masses that their "brothers" are "primitive".

And your logic about the "zionist project" is totally debunked when you see that "all over the world" and especially jews in israel are in grave danger at any given minute BECAUSE of zionism!

Obviously you are NOT tuned in to the world news, because you would of known what happened in India and Malaysia!
And don't forget Iran!

For millenia, I think right about the time dirt was invented, goyim have spead every evil lie about Jews imaginable, like we kill gentile babies for their blood to make matzah, that we have horns, that we control the wealth, I mean history is replete with the lies shit-ass goyim have told about Jews.

Wow, all of the Human race? (sorry, goyim). Asians for millennia, African tribes since the birth of time, Latino American civilizations clear across the other side of the globe, American indians, Eskimos?.

How about you cut the dramatics, then zoom in down on Europe and Middle East, then zoom again on parts where jews first move to, then concentrate on the countries the settle down to, then look for the cities the moved in, and then look at the people (sorry, goyim) they interacted with.

They look on the small groups of non-jews with hate in their hearts, then select the ones that hated the jews specifically, then pick the individuals that spread evil about them.

Then put them side with people like you and your "shit-ass goyim" rants, and we will see them for what they/you are, a hateful, bitter, world wide minority.

So don't paint the whole of the Human race with your "Jew hating Goyim" brush. It reads stupid, and makes you sound like a bigot.

Posted by: מרדכי סטמר

"And your logic about the "zionist project" is totally debunked when you see that "all over the world" and especially jews in israel are in grave danger at any given minute BECAUSE of zionism!."

So how's the weather in that parallel world you line in, bubbeh?. It nice, sunny and sane here.

Btw:

Daniel Pearl's "professor" dad today helped me to better understand ,the M'harshaמהרש"א on the now famous halachah, that Eisuv hates Yaakov,

He says that the halachah is only talking about Eisuv and his offsprings .NOT Yishmoel meaning the Arabs.

So how come that these days you see that "Yishmoel" is the most vile enemy of the jews?!

Now professor Pearl comes in...

Its a new and much more dangerous form of jew hating!
Called "anti zionist" NOT anti semites!


One more thing for Barry.
What kind of species did zionism create?!
An Israeli Sabra!!
Do I have to explain their attitudes and mentchlichkiet?

"Live in", even Xp (butterfingers)

Posted by: מרדכי סטמר

"Do I have to explain their attitudes and mentchlichkiet?."

Oh, please do!. It makes my morning coffee and donut tastes so much better. =)

(Just like a slow, live train wreck).

It is clear that taking down the Hasidim will be virtually impossible to do from within, we need the help from the non-Jews and this could stir them to act. The only concern that I have is how to contain their anger from spilling over to us, the good Jews.

Posted by: Sol | February 16, 2012 at 06:58 AM

-------

You might not be that bright to figure out the right strategy!

But there's out there enough jewish elites, who for them its easy!

It produced such great lines as, "a cow in Israel ,is more worth then a European Jew".
And "only with blood we will be able to claim Israel"

And don't forget the "jewish" owners of the "holy" new york times, who sat on the information how the jews in Europe are being systematically wiped out .and intentionally kept quite about it!

And of course the American "Jewish" lobby.
Who "actively" supported Roosevelts blind eye towards the holocaust!
And "mocked" the 400 Rabbis on the steps of the capital.

Oh, "Rabbi" Wiess! He knew how to figure it all out!

For Eva:

While it is true that not all victims of the holocaust were Jews, every Jew was a target. Your feeble attempt to marginalize the unprecedented enormity of the Jewish holocaust is merely a reflection of your insulting, hackneyed, simplistic and suspicious application of simple arithmetic to an evil of immeasurable proportions. In effect your argument proves nothing but it does leave one wondering whether or not you are actually Jewish.

Posted by: alex | February 16, 2012 at 11:06 AM

I haven't read Eva's comments yet or the other responses to her (if there are any), but I have to point out that the Nazis wanted to kill all the Gypsies, too, and every Gypsy was a target.

And the Nazi attitude toward Slavs was much more harsh than you seem to know.

Did you know that Hitler allowed certain half and quarter Jews (and their families) to avoid the death camps by serving in his army?

The Holocaust was much more complex than you seem to realize.

That said, Jews were its primary, major and nearly exclusive target.

Eva committed the crime of mentioning that non-Jews also suffered at the hands of the Nazis, which does not in any way diminish the enormity of the Holocaust. On the contrary, in my mind it only emphasizes the enormous depravity of the Nazis.
In effect, Alex's argument does leave one wondering whether or not he can read.

Mordechai, recently some Haredi spoke about saying shecayanu whilst their wives and children are being killed for being a despised minority.

Hareidim celebrate this. The fact that the Hareidim do not 'commercialise' the Holocaust is because they do not wish to ponder the part their primitiveness played in it. Instead they celebrate the backwardness of those who died without making the connection which the Reform and Zionists are not afraid to make. So much for your concern for Jewish blood!

Again, the reason why an advanced nation like Germany killed of the weak and backward minorities and foreigners (be they Jews, Slavs or Roma) whose resources they were in competition for is because they could and because it was easy. Darwinism is not pretty. Neither was it pretty when late medieval Spain with its guns and horses came to the stone age Americas.

The Reform accept this. Most Jews will gladly have their children assimilate or even become goyim to avoid the risk of them being killed or being Hareidi.

As for the Zionist, he is running a greater risk then the assimilationist however it is still less then that run and lost by the Hareidi in Europe, since by adopting modernity he has the chance to defend himself. Iran may get the atom bomb but Israel has the Hydrogen bomb and I doubt that Iran will move beyond rhetoric.

Shmarya,
You have a lot of good stuff on your site, but this part is just wrong. The Tanya doesn't say "umos haolam" as you quote. It says "umos ovdei gilulim". Check any copy of Tanya you want.

It says "Idol Worshippers" not non-Jews (atheists and Tzarist warmongers/Kossacks who didn't really believe were close enough). Chabad literature says that shituf (belief in G-d and something else) is not Avodah Zarah, answering the difference of opinion on this matter among commentators of the Shulchan Aruch. This is true only for non-Jews and the reason is given (their connection without the Covenant is less direct).

The Rebbe said repeatedly that non-Jews have G-dliness, are made in the Image of G-d, etc., just not the same as a Jew.

Judaism is also the only religion that says that members of another religion can attain heaven and yes, Christianity and Islam qualify as long as we're not talking about a group that's trying to kill people.

Shmarya, keep going after the pukes and uncouth fools (Litvish, self-styled Chabad, MO, whatever) who distort Torah, distort the Rebbe's teachings and who act subhuman, embarrassing the Torah and all who care about it. But leave the texts in their original, consult reputable experts (there are some - and there's plenty of scandal, and conversely, good people - in all groups).

Why limit this to Chabad?

Most haredim, hassidim, frumiks believe that they are superior to all others ( seculars, reform, conservative, mo, goyim, etc.).

It just goes with the territory.

Rabbinic Judaism is a puerile cult which thrives on division, superiority complexes, and setting men up in the role of hashem.

When you kick hashem out of your life, what do you expect?

Shmarya,
You have a lot of good stuff on your site, but this part is just wrong. The Tanya doesn't say "umos haolam" as you quote. It says "umos ovdei gilulim". Check any copy of Tanya you want.

Sigh.

What I quoted is ***CHABAD'S OFFICIAL TRANSLATION.*** You'll note I even cited it for you so you could have looked it up if you wished.

Why does it read in Hebrew "souls of idol worshipers" but "souls of the nations of the world" in English?

Because, as I noted in my post – and as you accidentally just confirmed – Chabad views all non-Jews (unless they follow the Seven Laws of Noah in the specific manner I explain above AND reject Christianity and other other religions) as souls of idol worshipers.

The Rebbe read every page of this translation and he approved it before it was published.

He wrote a preface for the translation, as well, and during the writing of the translation he answered specific question from the translators about how to translate certain phrases.

What you do not know (or what you hide) is that like many other Jewish books published under the rule of hostile regimes, euphemisms were used for phrases and concepts that were deemed by the rabbis to be too risky for the government to see.

This was done with editions of the Talmud and the Rambam's Mishne Torah, for example – and it was done with the Tanya, as well.

The Rebbe was a big backer of restoring the original or intended text of these books, and was very happy when, for example, Mossad HaRav Kook restored the original text of the Mishne Torah and Rabbi Adin Steinsaltz restored the original text of the Talmud.

The translation you object to comes from Chabad.org and is taken verbatim from Lessons in Tanya, a book that contains the entire text of the Tanya with commentary based on the teachings of Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, AKA the Rebbe.

It was published by Chabad about a decade after the official Chabad translation of the Tanya. The Rebbe also read it before agreeing to publish it and made his own notes and suggestions about the commentary. And then he approved it and allowed the final corrected version to be published.

Here is what that Lessons in Tanya says about the Tanya's intent here:
Concerning the nations of the world, however, this is not so. Their motivation is not the welfare of their fellow; rather, it stems from a self-serving motive — the desire for self-glorification, a feeling of gratification, and the like.

It should be noted that among the nations of the world there are also to be found those whose souls are derived from kelipat nogah. Called “the pious ones of the nations of the world,” these righteous individuals are benevolent not out of selfish motives but out of a genuine concern for their fellow.
So there you have it.

Chabad's official explanation approved by the Rebbe.

And you can see this translation and this explanation on Chabad.org.

Lastly, you confuse the issue of shituf.

What Chabad says is that in certain contexts, shituf is not avodah zara, idol worship, for non-Jews. (For Jews, it is always avoda zara according to all opinions.)

But the direction given by the Rebbe to people involved in the Benei Noach movement was always to stay away from any established religion, and that a ben noach had to give up Christianity in order to be a true ben noach.

Did the Rebbe say a few nice things about non-Jews in public?

Sure he did.

But you have to take those statements in their proper context – a context which must include the essential writings of Chabad hasidut published under the Rebbe's personal guidance and which reflect his understanding of the texts and of that issue.

I don't know where the discrepancy in translation came from, so I'll take you're explanation and you have my apologies. Just searched and it's as you wrote but they do add a section saying that there are righteous Gentiles and this doesn't apply to them. Maybe in Russia it meant most people but in America most fall into the righteous category.

All I know is that the Rebbe blessed and helped many Gentiles. Did a search and this came up on his position vis a vis G-dliness in a Gentile:
http://www.chabad.org/therebbe/article_cdo/aid/392177/jewish/The-Rebbe-Speaks-to-Hillel-Students.htm
(Brief - States that a Non-Jew also has a G-dly spark but not the same as a Jew).

His actions were to help everyone. He didn't want Non-Jews and Jews to become assimilated, but gave blessings, advice and time to all.

Christianity and Islam not being idol worship for Gentiles and why are also clear from his works.

Each religion says that it and its adherents are the best. Secular humanists think they're the best, some dogmatically so. The main point is Judaism teaches that one does not have to be Jewish to find favor with G-d and receive heaven. That's far more open than any other belief and the Rebbe subscribed to that.

Judaism forbids harming or stealing from Non-Jews (which should be a given), but is unique in also giving them heaven.

Maybe in Russia it meant most people but in America most fall into the righteous category.

No. This is absolutely false.

According to Chabad, a gentile has to accept the 7 laws of Noah for completely altruistic reasons and follow them 100% without any deviation, no matter how minor, for the purposes of serving the Jewish God.

And they also need to reject all other religions.

If they do that, then and only then can they be called righteous.

The only exception for that might be non-Jews who risk their lives to save the lives of Jews – if that is done altruistically and without the hope or expectation of any reward or payment.

That's how it works.

Barry:

So your only "solution" the "jew" problem, is just to seize to "exist" as a jewish people, you are openly advocating for "complete" assimilation.(I doubt that much readers here agree with you.)
But the reform movement leadership are NOT on board with your "solution" and its for sure not in their doctrine.
And to their "dismay" more and more of them, got to know what the reform movement is all about!and don't see the problem of assimilation.

Their hypocrisy, of "them" celebrating Chanukah that symbolizes the win of Judaism over "assimilation". Stinks to high heaven!
(Don't forget if the "misyaavnim" had their way, the "jew problem" would of been gone 2500 years ago..!)


Next time I see a Menorah "proudly" displayed in public by them.
I will be inclined to knock it down....(Oh I forgot...I live in the USA)

Posted by: YP | February 16, 2012 at 03:14 PM

And here's the quote you refer to (but misrepresent) in it's entirety. It is absolutely clear the Rebbe did NOT mean what you claim:

http://www.chabad.org/therebbe/article_cdo/aid/392177/jewish/The-Rebbe-Speaks-to-Hillel-Students.htm

Question: What is the Jewish attitude towards conversion?

Rebbe: Never were Torah Jews enthused about conversion.6 A Jew should be a good Jew and a gentile should be a good gentile. There is for us enough to do in just seeing that Jews are good Jews. Every limb of a body has its particular function. Each limb has its activity to which it is fitted. Likewise, every created thing has its particular function. The Jew has his and the gentile has his.7

Question: This afternoon we heard a lecture by Dr. Block in which he explained that a Jew has a Divine spark. He didn't say explicitly, but he intimated that only a Jew has this Divine spark but a non-Jew does not. Is this so?

Rebbe: A non-Jew and every created thing does have a Divine spark, but it is not the same kind of the Divine spark that a Jew has. To illustrate from the body again, each part has its own function: the brain to think, the heart to feel, and the legs to carry one about. So the mission of a Jew in life is to transform the physicality of the world into spiritual, divine. The non-Jew has a different purpose and therefore the two do not have the same Divine spark.

In other words, a non-Jew has the same type of Divine spark that other non-Jewish created things – animals, say – have.

But Jews?

We're special.

And the context of these remarks of the Rebbe you cited?

He was speaking to non-Orthodox college students in 1960 who were upset because a Chabad speaker had told them that, essentially, non-Jews do not have human souls.

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