Israel Changes Organ Transplant Policy To Exclude Haredim And Others Who Refuse To Donate Organs

In 2005, he had two ultra-Orthodox, Haredi Jewish patients on his ward who were awaiting heart transplants. The patients confided in him that they would never consider donating organs, in accordance with Haredi Jewish beliefs, but that they had absolutely no qualms about accepting organs from others. That Haredi Jews would not donate organs was a well-known fact in Israel. But this was the first time anyone had openly admitted the paradox to him.The unfairness of a segment of society unwilling to donate organs, but happy to accept them, nagged. After he operated on both patients, giving each a new lease on life, he put together a proposal that would give priority to those patients willing to donate their organs.

 

In Israel, a New Approach to Organ Donation
By DANIELLE OFRI, M.D. • NY Times

One of the most agonizing spots in medicine is the “transplant list.” When I’ve referred patients for organ transplant — heart, liver, kidney — it is the start of an anguished wait. The clock ticks for my patient as we watch her clinical status decline, all the while harboring that excruciating hope that someone will die soon enough to make an organ available. In the case of kidney donation, which can come from a live donor, it is the desperate hope that someone will decide to make this enormous personal sacrifice.

Some of my patients have died waiting, which is, sadly, not an unusual outcome. It is estimated that 18 patients on the waiting list in America die every day. In the United States, as in many countries, we rely on a simple system of altruism, or what might be called the opt-in approach. We hope that people will sign organ donor cards because they think it is the right thing to do, or that families will consent to donation after a loved one has had brain death because it will help someone else. But these mechanisms do not result in nearly enough organs for all the patients who need them.

Other countries, like Spain and Austria, have tried an opt-out approach, called presumed consent. Every patient who dies is assumed to have consented to organ donation, unless they have specifically declined. However, this hasn’t necessarily increased the number of organ donations, in part because doctors find it extremely difficult to go against family wishes if surviving family members are strongly opposed to donation.

A third way to increase donations is being pioneered in Israel. Until now, Israel ranked at the bottom of Western countries on organ donation. Jewish law proscribes desecration of the dead, which has been interpreted by many to mean that Judaism prohibits organ donation. Additionally, there were rabbinic issues surrounding the concept of brain death, the state in which organs are typically harvested. As a result, many patients died waiting for organs.

So Israel has decided to try a new system that would give transplant priority to patients who have agreed to donate their organs. In doing so, it has become the first country in the world to incorporate “nonmedical” criteria into the priority system, though medical necessity would still be the first priority.

It began as the brainchild of Dr. Jacob Lavee, a cardiothoracic surgeon who heads the heart transplant program of Sheba Medical Center in Tel Hashomer. In 2005, he had two ultra-Orthodox, Haredi Jewish patients on his ward who were awaiting heart transplants. The patients confided in him that they would never consider donating organs, in accordance with Haredi Jewish beliefs, but that they had absolutely no qualms about accepting organs from others.

That Haredi Jews would not donate organs was a well-known fact in Israel. But this was the first time anyone had openly admitted the paradox to Dr. Lavee.

The unfairness of a segment of society unwilling to donate organs, but happy to accept them, nagged at Dr. Lavee. After he operated on both patients, giving each a new lease on life, he put together a proposal that would give priority to those patients willing to donate their organs.

Working with rabbis, ethicists, lawyers, academics and members of the public, he and other medical experts worked to create a new law in 2010, which will take full effect this year: if two patients have identical medical needs for an organ transplant, priority will be given to the patient who has signed a donor card, or whose family member has donated an organ in the past.

A critical component of the law’s success was engaging the country’s highly influential religious leadership, which had long been resistant to organ donation. Even among the half of the country that is devoutly secular, when faced with death and whether to donate organs. “Suddenly the families become very religious,” said Dr. Yael Haviv, the medical director of the organ donation program at Sheba. “Suddenly they ask the rabbis.”

But in the Talmud, saving a life supersedes most everything, and many commandments may be transgressed if the goal is to save a life. Based on this, the argument could be made that organ donation fulfilled one of the highest religious virtues. The lawmakers also agreed on a definition of brain death that was acceptable to the vast majority of rabbis (though not the ultra-Orthodox Haredi), as well as local imams, making organ donation kosher to a large segment of the population.

This was accompanied by a huge public awareness campaign about organ donation, with radio, TV, billboard and newspaper ads promoting the new priority system and countering the perception that Jewish law forbids donation. Shopping centers and coffee houses were blanketed with organ donation information. The response was overwhelming, as people registered in droves as potential donors.

“We were swamped,” says Tamar Ashkenazi, the director of the National Transplant Center of Israel. The machine that prints the organ donation cards usually handles 3,000 a month — 5,000 if two workers are dedicated full-time to operating it. During the 10 weeks of the publicity campaign, 70,000 Israelis registered for organ donation cards.

The consent rate from families has already increased, and the number of organs available for patients has increased in parallel. Transplants have so far increased by more than 60 percent over all this year.

Other aspects of the new law provide “fair compensation” for living donors that covers 40 days of lost wages, plus expenses related to the donation. “This serves to remove the disincentives to donation,” Dr. Lavee says. Kidney transplants from live donors — nearly always from family members of patients — increased dramatically.

The new system, though, is not without its critics. Many say that any “nonmedical” factors in organ allocation are inherently unethical. Some say that the law enshrines religious discrimination, since Haredi patients decline to donate based on their religious beliefs.

But many feel that the new law adds a measure of fairness to the process, and now there are more organs available for everyone. It will be interesting to see how things play out when the priority system goes into effect on April 1.

Danielle Ofri is the author of three books, including “Medicine in Translation: Journeys With My Patients.” She is an associate professor of medicine at New York University School of Medicine and editor in chief of the Bellevue Literary Review.

There are close to a dozen posts on this issue I've written or reposted over the past few years. Most of them can be found by clicking on the Med-Ethics link in the footer of this post.

Comments

[Jeff]

About damn time - although, unfortunately, it doesn't seem actually to "exclude" them, merely to place them farther down on the list (although, given the frequency with which organs become available, I suppose one could say it's a form of exclusion).

In any case, let's see how the resident frum lunatics try to spin this one...

[effie]

In any case, let's see how the resident frum lunatics try to spin this one...

My advice to them is to start doing cardiac aerobics. lol!

[seymour]

That Haredi Jews would not donate organs was a well-known fact in Israel. But this was the first time anyone had openly admitted the paradox to Dr. Lavee.

why would he be shocked by this. this is how they operate

no army but protect me
no secular education but provide for me since i cannot get a good job

I hate Israel but give me money

or I do not pay taxes since I do not use the service.

but that is also a lie, since they do take many services for granted like medical care

[ah-pee-chorus]

but what about the loophole that allows charedim to sign up as donors provided their chosen rabbi agrees (after their death)? didnt this enable them to technically be on the donor list while ensuring that they never actually donate their organs since their rabbi will forbid it, as they well know?

[effie]

ah-pee-chorus: Wasn't there a famous athlete who signed up as a donor but after he died, the rabbis worked over his family who nixed the donation?

[Oy_Vegas]

The haredi can get around this by signing the organ donor card with no intention of actually giving up their organs upon death.

They will see it as transgressing the commandment against bearing false witness to save a life. That's okay, especially if you get rabbinic approval.

If the unfortunate situation comes up that they die and their organs are donatable, their families just have to raise a big stink and say no.

A horrific tragedy involving the death of a healthy loved one is the worst thing that can happen to a family. But somehow, modern medicine can make it that from this tragedy others can have good productive lives. What person would not want to participate in the mitzvah of extending another's life?

[ah-pee-chorus]

effie -

exactly. i'm wondering if that loophole's been plugged.

What person would not want to participate in the mitzvah of extending another's life?

Posted by: Oy_Vegas

a really pious and religious one. god hates when organs that will soon become part of the dirt in the ground are used to bring immeasurable joy and life to many others.
religion has a special ability to negate humans natural inclination to cooperate with one another.

"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.
Steven Weinberg, quoted in The New York Times, April 20, 1999
US physicist (1933 - ) "

[Sarek]

My coworker refused to sign my organ donor form as a witness. He was afraid it was like co-signing a loan -- if my organs weren't good, they'd come after his!

[Eli]

Seymour, as usually, brilliantly put!

[Betzalel]

I heard about someone who had a heart transplant. Before the heart transplant, he was a good guy. Afterwards, he became a rasha. He must have gotten the heart of a rasha.

Be careful with this stuff.

[Dovit]

It's about time. Wait for the riots to start...10..9...8...7...

[Yaakov]

Betzalel:

Please tell me you are joking.

Please.

[ah-pee-chorus]

Yaakov-

i doubt he was.

[jancsipista]

Betzalel-A mind is a terrible thing to waste especially when its youre betzalel go get help

[ah-pee-chorus]

the best part will be when the charedim scream that theyre being discriminated against and all should respect their right to take without giving. and that through their 'selfless' selfishness they are really healing us all.

[מרדכי סטמר]

Which one do you see as more absurd?

The "chariedi" who won't donate out of his religious beliefs?
Or the secular who "refuses" to donate-as the article points out- on religious grounds?....

[ah-pee-chorus]

מרדכי סטמר -

if some secular families get cold feet about having their relatives organs donated and use religion as an excuse, thats one thing. but when an entire charedi popul. claims on principle that their god commands them to take but not give, thats far worse.
and plenty of seculars DO give. stop your nonsensical attempt to morally equate both groups. bottom line- charedim can and do get organs from seculars. the reverse usually cannot be said.

[who knows]

"Some say that the law enshrines religious discrimination, since Haredi patients decline to donate based on their religious beliefs."

I'm tired of the overuse of "religious belief" exuse. They have a religious belief that they are entiteled to take but are not allowed to give!

What if it someone's religious belief to steal? What if it someone's religious belief to kill unbelievers....? Why in the world any crazy idea is Ok as long as it is a part of "religious belief"?

[Jeff]

Which one do you see as more absurd?

The "chariedi" who won't donate out of his religious beliefs?
Or the secular who "refuses" to donate-as the article points out- on religious grounds?....

Posted by: מרדכי סטמר | February 17, 2012 at 11:33 AM

Okay, that didn't take long!

Any more entries in the "Insane Hypocritical Shit Haredim Say" contest?

[Friar Yid]

who knows- Indeed. It would be far easier to be sympathetic to someone whose religious beliefs required them to be self-sufficient rather than those who, in the name of "belief," demanded that other people help support their lifestyle.

[מרדכי סטמר]

""" Even among the half of the country that is devoutly secular, when faced with death and whether to donate organs. “Suddenly the families become very religious,” said Dr. Yael Haviv, the medical director of the organ donation program at Sheba. “Suddenly they ask the rabbis.”"""""

Plus Israeli organ donors were among the lowest in the world.

That doesn't seem to be as "some" seculars are chickening out,
Its more sort of a "charge" against the "seculars".

[jancsipista]

Jeff-the chassidim think thaT they are the ones who can think and everyone elses oppinion means nothing in the meantime it is the exact opposite they are an insult to thinking people intelligence to them you are nonexistant its only them who are the planets reason ofr our existance in short they are mentally disturbed idiots

[ah-pee-chorus]

Its more sort of a "charge" against the "seculars".

which is a worse charge, that 'some' seculars dont give or that virtually NO charedim do?

[Dovid]

Which one do you see as more absurd?

The "chariedi" who won't donate out of his religious beliefs?
Or the secular who "refuses" to donate-as the article points out- on religious grounds?....

Posted by: מרדכי סטמר

The idea under this law is that BOTH would be dropped down the donor list. The question which is "more absurd" is irrelevant.

[Steve from Brooklyn]

Wasn't there a famous athlete who signed up as a donor but after he died, the rabbis worked over his family who nixed the donation?

Avi Cohen z"l

[מרדכי סטמר]

The idea under this law is that BOTH would be dropped down the donor list. The question which is "more absurd" is irrelevant.

Posted by: Dovid | February 17, 2012 at 12:08 PM
-------

It IS relevant to the "reason" why its news worthy on this site.
You know why it was posted here, Shamaryah highlighted it in the header,
It wasn't about the problem Israeli doctors and patients face.
It was to stir you up against "chariedim"!
So my question is relevant.

[Junarchist]

http://www.hods.org/ is a great organization; I personally had the pleasure to hear Robby Berman speak at my shul. If you care about this issue then you should support their work by either getting a donor card or giving them financial assistance.

[Bigot]

Would it be possible to sign up as a donor after being put on the waiting list? Hey, my kidneys are failing, I better sign the card now.

[Confused]

Israel Changes Organ Transplant Policy To Exclude Haredim And Others Who Refuse To Donate Organs

Any reason why the headline could nou have read:

Israel Changes Organ Transplant Policy To Exclude People Who Refuse To Donate Organs

I think we know the answer!

[מרדכי סטמר]

I would of been guilty of negligence if wouldn't point out, that the religious opposition to donating organs is NOT because its forbidden to donate an organ,

Because there are lots of chariedim who donate "kidneys"(2 of my closest friends had donated one of their kidneys).and are giving blood to the blood bank.

Its because a niftar has to be buried together with anything that was connected to him at the time he passed away."Including" a IV pipe.

Also, its not allowed to do anything that may have a person die a second earlier then he would of without it.

So,(I'm not a dyan) "I" think that an organ that won't result in a brain dead patients dieing faster. Is acceptable by halachah.

[Shmarya]

Any reason why the headline could nou have read:

Israel Changes Organ Transplant Policy To Exclude People Who Refuse To Donate Organs

I think we know the answer!

Posted by: Confused | February 17, 2012 at 01:09 PM

Yes, asswipe, we do know the reason – THE CONTENT OF THE ARTICLE ITSELF WHICH MAKES CLEAR THAT THE INSPIRATION FOR THE CHANGE IS HAREDI REFUSAL TO DONATE ORGANS WHILE AT THE SAME TIME THEY WILL RECEIVE ORGAN TRANSPLANTS.

If you click on the med-ethics link and search, you'll find specific rulings from Rabbi Elyashiv banning organ donation and calling it murder while at the same time allowing his followers to get organ transplants.

As for you, I warned you before to stop trolling.

If I notice you trolling again I'll ban you and I'll delete your comments.

[Shoshi]

If you click on the med-ethics link and search, you'll find specific rulings from Rabbi Elyashiv banning organ donation and calling it murder while at the same time allowing his followers to get organ transplants.

[snip]

Posted by: Shmarya | February 17, 2012 at 01:18 PM

This is what I don't understand. If it is considered murder, how do they halachically justify using the organs? It is clear they are the direct cause of the organ being taken before the donor is halachically dead (according to their interpretation), in other words, killing the person, according to their own definition. Is it that it is acceptable to have someone else kill someone for one's own benefit? Or perhaps they make sure that the organs THEY use were taken from people who were halachically dead? What am I missing??

[Rochel]

I think this in an innovative strategy, offering incentives to increase participation - and it seems to be successful.

[Shmarya]

What am I missing??

Posted by: Shoshi | February 17, 2012 at 02:30 PM

Click on the link, look for the articles discussing Rabbi Elyashiv's ruling, read them and you'll see.

[Eli]

"This is what I don't understand. If it is considered murder, how do they halachically justify using the organs?"
Since haredi don't donate, it follows they will not be taking a life they regard as valuable. Draw your own conclusion as to whether they consider the loss of life of a non-haredi to be murder.
I remember some posts time back on FM about haredi accepting blood transfusions from Arabs but refusing to donate.

[Shoshi]

Click on the link, look for the articles discussing Rabbi Elyashiv's ruling, read them and you'll see.

Posted by: Shmarya | February 17, 2012 at 02:38 PM

Thank you.

[David]

This is excellent. But I can now see the frumma arranging medical tourism to third world countries to buy organs from those people...

Next I'd like to see reform of Israel's welfare. If you are not prepared to work or be educated you cannot be supported.

[מרדכי סטמר]

Next I'd like to see reform of Israel's welfare. If you are not prepared to work or be educated you cannot be supported.

Posted by: David | February 17, 2012 at 02:50 PM
-------
It would of been nice of you, if you would give credit for the person who came up with the idea.....

[Betzalel]

Yaakov and everyone,

Here's a question: If it would save your life, would you want to receive Hitler's heart as a transplant?

(I guess this is an example of Goodwin's Law in action. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law )

[KJ]

I have no problems with the policy. As long as the first criteria is one of medical necessity.

You know, in the long run this turned out to be good for the haredim as well! Because of the public campaign, the number of people carrying donor cards has increased. This has resulted in the increase availability of organs ergo, more transplant opportunities for all. The haredim therefore will have a greater chance of getting an organ except in a tie, then they lose.

So all in all, a good move!

[Litvish]

Bravo.

Now let's strip them of all the other things that they refuse to contribute to ( military defense, social programs, public libraries, roads, education, health care, section 8 housing, Medicaid, etc. etc.).

They are the ultimate schnorrers and finally need to be punished for their hypocritical, sociopathic attitudes.

Screw their damn religion.

It is just another excuse for living off the rest of us.

Let hatsolah take them to their own hospitals; they may not be admitted to any hospital that they refuse to support, for example.

As for the organ discussion; I would so love to see them and their kids die for lack of an organ from one of us trefene beyner, us scum ( in their eyes).

It will all come back to haunt them.

[Yaakov]

Betzalel:

I don't believe that the heart carries any personality nor any sort of spirit of the person it came from. So, in fact, if Hitler gave his heart to save a Jew, it would seem to be justice, not something bad.

There is no reason at all to imagine that the heart would carry some kind of spiritual contamination.

[Betzalel]

Litvish said,

"...I would so love..."

Love is the answer. Keep on loving, Litvish, and everything will be good and well.

[maven]

Betzalel: The Adverts did a song about this in 1977, called "Looking Through Gary Gilmour's Eyes" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3ggFF3pCno

[Yaakov]

Litvish:

I don't believe that you would love to see anyone die. Even when death is a necessity it is tragic. I just don't believe you would ever revel in someone's death.

[A. Nuran]

They take government money but produce nothing.

They solicit charity from non-Charedim, but their charities are for their own.

They let others die while they stay safely behind the lines.

They take organs from Gentiles and secular Jews but don't give in turn.

It's all pretty consistent. Their Invisible Sky Wizard wants them to take but never give.

[ah-pee-chorus]

: If it would save your life, would you want to receive Hitler's heart as a transplant?

Posted by: Betzalel

in a heartbeat.

[ah-pee-chorus]

maven -

nice reference and good analogy. i hadnt heard of it.

[Jewel of a Jew]

I think this is a ridiculous rule. Some people choose to not donate their organs for reasons other than religious purposes. In America, should one not be protected from enemy harm, because they didn't join the military? Or better yet, they will protect them, but they are the bottom of priorities. Donating your body parts is a very personal, and sensitive subject. Why are people bringing up the army, taxes, and government aid? That has NOTHING to do with organ donation. Are they going to give priority to a bad person, who does drugs, and is a menace to society, because he signed a release on his organs, and the good hearted person who has worked very hard in life gets pushed aside, because he chose to keep his organs after death?

[Jeff]

Are they going to give priority to a bad person, who does drugs, and is a menace to society, because he signed a release on his organs, and the good hearted person who has worked very hard in life gets pushed aside, because he chose to keep his organs after death?

Posted by: Jewel of a Jew | February 17, 2012 at 05:04 PM

Yes, and it's very sad that you can't understand the reasoning behind it.

[Litvish]

Posted by: Yaakov | February 17, 2012 at 04:23 PM
----

True.

I am just very angry at the abuses of the haredim in a world that they despise.

When I see them dressed and behaving as they do, I see the face of the enemy of all humanity, of all that is decent and holy in our world.

Would they give money to help some poor non-haredi?

I don't for one second believe they would.

They are the lowest life form imaginable.

Their religion is sick as they are.

In my world, all of them would be sterilized and, like a rabid dog, neutered to limit their damage to the rest of us.

[joemadar]

Litvish-I have the same feeling you do about them alot of times youreknowledge of them is very precise. its me szervus

[David]

I am just very angry at the abuses of the haredim in a world that they despise.

When I see them dressed and behaving as they do, I see the face of the enemy of all humanity, of all that is decent and holy in our world.

Posted by: Litvish | February 17, 2012 at 06:02 PM

I'm afraid I feel the same way. They have utterly perverted the Jewish religion. As you say they despise the world they live in and everyone in it (except for other Charedim) but are totally dependent upon it, even to the extent they they feel enttitled to the supoport of working people to pay for them. And they bear no shame for their deliberate dependence on others or their grossly offensive behaviours of e.g. spitting at little girls and calling them sluts and whores.

The world is waking up to them. A lessening of organ donation priority is just the start of it. No longer are people prepared to see them fail to educate their children or refuse to work or otherwise participate in modern Jewish and civil society. The third-world Eastern European ghettos they long for have been gone for a very long time and they need to get over it. Modern people don't want to or like living in such sh*tholes.

[David]

It would of been nice of you, if you would give credit for the person who came up with the idea.....

Posted by: מרדכי סטמר | February 17, 2012 at 03:05 PM

I did see your earlier comments but I have been saying the same thing for a very long time. You are welcome to check my numerous earlier posts on the subject.

[mimi]

I hope this does not include children.

[David]

I hope this does not include children.

Posted by: mimi | February 17, 2012 at 06:51 PM

Unfortunately Charedi children are as much victims of their parents as everyone else. I doubt that it would affect the children as they would have no power to consent to their organ donation in any case.

Also, regarding the failure of parents to educate Charedi children, sooner or later some serious action has to be taken on this. No one wants to say it but it may be necessary to forcibly remove these kids from their parents, at least during the day for five days a week so that they can be given a proper education.

[Litvish]

I had a haredi rebbe at Ner Yisroel, Baltimore. Once we were chatting and he went on a rant about air conditioners.

" Why can't I use freeon in my AC? I don't care what happens to the environment. What do I care? I sit and learn. That is all that matters. The rest is narishkayt."

I was shocked and very pissed that this bearded man, who actually was a nice guy, could have so easily disregarded his duty as a human being to care for the world and to just give a bit of a damn about the rest of us here.

But, no, not according to his screwy religion.

The rest of us are lesser beings; we will never measure up to his lofty standards.

And, therefore, he and his buddies are totally entitled to rip us off, curse us, act toward us as they would with a Down's Syndrome kid, being nice but secretly thinking, " Nebekh, This guy is really a mess.Thank god that I am not like him!!"

They will never, ever change.

When are we finally going to get that?

Maybe after they have completely taken over Israel and wrecked the whole world for Yidn.

[BeenThereDoneThat]

Yaacov, I have recently seen research that they have found that various organs have brain-like cells in them, especially the heart.

Hence they are still researching the commonly known phenomenon that heart transplant recipients sometimes inherit the traits, and tastes of the donor.

Look up cellular memory, it is quite interesting.

[Jeff]

Litvish, you're in your sixties, correct? How old were you when you were at Ner Yisroel?

[ah-pee-chorus]

: BeenThereDoneThat-

its pseudoscience.

heres a quote about it...

"The belief in these pseudoscientific concepts appears to be related to scientific illiteracy, gullibility, and a lack of critical thinking skills and reasoning abilities in both the mental health community and in society at large"

[ah-pee-chorus]

can you link to any peer reviewed papers in scientific journals which support it?
if so, i'll reconsider.

[SkepticalYid]

Yep, pretty much all organs have nerve cells connected to them in some way or another. That doesn't make them brains. Admittedly some guys think with their gonads- but they're still not brain cells.

[Yaakov]

BeenThereDoneThat:

"Cellular Memory" is no better than pseudscience. The nervous systems in organs like the heart are for self-regulation, they are not brains

Do you have particular evidence of "inherited traits" by organ recipients?

[Betzalel]

What differentiates the Haredi from others is that they have the Torah, which is the Truth. So when they behave badly, it's much worse, since they should know better.

[Sol]

I think that this concept should be expanded.

Anyone on public assistance or does not pay any taxes should also be bumped by someone who has contributed to society.

There should be more benefits to someone who pays taxes above and beyond the obvious, being kept out of jail for failure to pay taxes.

[BeenThereDoneThat]

I will do some more research.

[Litvish]

Posted by: Jeff

I was not a bokhur there.

Starting about 15 years ago I drove there from the Washington, DC suburbs every Wednesday night for a one-on-one shiur with one of the leading magid shiurim there.

We learned like this for many years.

When the rov who set up the shiur was nifter, I was dropped like a hot potato. I wasn't even told my friend had died. Later, when I happened to speak with my rebbe in passing, he told me that the guy was nifter.

That was when I figured out that my friend was gone.

I called his rebetzin to offer my condolences. Her only response was, " Who told you?"

The rebbe at Ner Yisroel is/was a really nice man who also is, I guess like many of us, fixed in his beliefs. He is also a great teacher and scholar. I still like him but not much of what he says.

I let him know, after several years of learning like this, that I was gay. He just told me that he cannot comment since he is ill informed on the topic.

He never pressured me to become frum ( he knew I was once frum) but told me that no one would be happier than him if I were to see the light, so to speak. I understood that he was bending over backwards to be nice to me.

If you want to communicate with me, contact Shmarya and he can send me your e mail.

[Important to note]

It's important to note (as MS noted above) that hundreds of Chareidim have donated kidneys to complete strangers. I personally have donated mine to a non-practicing Jew, through the Renewal organization, and many other chareidim have also donated to the non frum. Renewal has coordinated more than 100 transplant between strangers and I would guess that more than 80% of their donors were chareidim. So when you stigmatize Chareidim as merely one way takers, it's patently false. Though I concede that there are areas where I'd love to see chareidim contribute more, there are other areas where they are light years ahead of their peers in giving including hatzolo and living donors.

[A. Nuran]

Been There Done That, who are "They"? What reputable journals has this research been published in? What are the results?

I know a bit about anatomy and physiology. The idea you're putting forward is somewhere between "complete woo" and "utter bullcrap" to the best of my knowledge.

[Eli]

BeenThereDoneThat,
You might also Google the "Hitler's sweater" experiment on superstitious beliefs, done in the 1990s, or the more recent experiments with sweaters allegedly worn by serial killers. Or you could look up the beliefs of cannibal societies in what traits they acquire in eating the heart or other organs of their victims.
Complete woo.
You're an easy mark for Chabad, my friend.

[Jeff]

When the rov who set up the shiur was nifter, I was dropped like a hot potato. I wasn't even told my friend had died. Later, when I happened to speak with my rebbe in passing, he told me that the guy was nifter.

Posted by: Litvish | February 18, 2012 at 08:09 PM

Right, that was R. Lesser, about whom you told us.

The reason I asked is that the MO rabbi I sometimes mention attended NY. You're about the same age, so you would have known him if you'd been a student there.

As you may recall, I told you he knew R. Lesser when he lived here in Boston. I forwarded your narrative to him. He was very sad to learn of the way in which R. Lesser was treated.

[Russian PhD]

I would also exclude Haredim and others who, by their choice (not because of medical, family, age, or other involuntary conditions), do not work, pay taxes, and serve in the military, from ALL medical services (which are state-funded in Israel). Need an admission to the emergency? Pay full bill, in cash, in front. No money? Very well, one parasite less.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Apologies to Paul McCartney (Live & Let Die):

When You Were Frum And Your Heart Was An Open Sefer
You Used To Say Live Fellow Yids
(You Know You Did, You Know You Did You Know You Did)
But In This Ever Changing Halacha In Which We Live By
Makes You Give In And Schrei:

Say Live And Let Die
Live And Let Die
Live And Let Die
Live And Let Die

What Does It Matter Chevra
When You Got An Organ Failure
You Gotta Get It Schnell
But if you give you're gonna go to Hell

When You Were Frum And Your Heart Was An Open Sefer
You Used To Say Live Fellow Yids
(You Know You Did, You Know You Did You Know You Did)
But In This Ever Changing Halacha In Which We Live By
Makes You Give In And Schrei...

[Josh]

Need an admission to the emergency? Pay full bill, in cash, in front. No money? Very well, one parasite less.

Posted by: Russian PhD | February 19, 2012 at 08:33 AM

Well said, a great way to get rid of the rif-raf and homeless, I assume a lot of the Ethiopians may fall in that category as well.

[Yaakov]

Josh:

EVERYONE falls into this category in the case of an organ transplant. Statistically speaking no one is rich enough to pay up front, in cash for an organ transplant. The people that are live in a different world from you and me.

[Josh]

Yaakov, of course you are right, I was being sarcastic in my reply to "Russian PhD"'s silly post.

[Jeff]

If you want to communicate with me, contact Shmarya and he can send me your e mail.

Posted by: Litvish | February 18, 2012 at 08:09 PM

Litvish, Shmarya told me to tell you to email him, and he'll give you my address.