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February 12, 2012

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Steven W

They took the body to an apartment? There would be a certain irony if there were kohanim around there....

A. Nuran

Beth, "cutters" are almost all female and considerably younger than the deceased

Wigmore

Astonishingly, I find myself agreeing with something posted by my mixed fibers friend.

I would not believe anything posted in YWN that they claim to have originated on their own (as opposed to the stories they lift from websites), not even the time and temperature.

Office of the Chief Rabbi

The authorities in Israel should quietly and without publicity disinter the body of this man on the Sabbath so as to carry out an autopsy.
Posted by: barry | February 13, 2012 at 04:39 AM

I venture to say that not only would this lead to riots, but it could probably bring down the government. Therefore, the gov't wouldn't allow it.

Beth Frank-Backman

WoolSilkCotton - I'll accept you see cutting wounds, but at least from the psychological view, it might be wise to distinguish between self injury and suicide attempts.

It is not uncommon for survivors of severe abuse to either drown out emotional tension or, at the opposite extreme, attempt to wake themselves up from numbness by various forms of self injury. usually these do not have the intent to kill. Such self-wounding is actually more of an attempt to live in spite of numbness and pain.

One way or another - whether through murder the night he was killed, or through terrible events earlier in life, this person most probably suffered greatly.

Adam Neira

Prayers for the 32 y.o. man.

If it indeed was suicide what led him to this terrible nadir in his life ?

Bob Guthrie

I was going to make a long post, specially comenting on מרדכי סטמר's lunacies, but "Chareidim corpse stealing thugs" just sums up the whole situation Xp

David

Jewish cadavers played a disproportionate role in early anatomy.

Posted by: barry | February 13, 2012 at 04:39 AM

Didn't know that. Thanks.

barry

Jewish cadavers played a disproportionate role in early anatomy.

During the early 19th century the authorities were faced with the following dilemma. They understood the need for cadavers for scientific and medical training while at the same time the traditional source of such cadavers, the executed criminal, was declining. Body snatching was a misdemeanour punishable by a fine the bodysnatchers were happy to pay when caught. There was considerable pressure to make body snatching a felony which the authorities understood they had to resist.

The solution to this dilemma was deceptively simple. The medical schools wanted the freshest bodies they could get hold of and since halacha required quick burial, this meant that Jewish cemeteries were a better source of cadavers then Christian cemeteries. Furthermore Jewish cemeteries were not visited over the Sabbath so body snatchers had little to fear of being disturbed on Friday nights.

Although the snatching of the Jewish dead was distasteful for the authorities, this was preferable to Christian cemeteries being desecrated or the medical schools being closed down. If Jews complained to the authorities, the authorities would argue that the law only made body snatching a misdemeanour so their hands were tied when punishing the medical schools.

The authorities in Israel should quietly and without publicity disinter the body of this man on the Sabbath so as to carry out an autopsy. After a month they should publicize this so that the Sikkarim know their efforts were in vain.

WoolSilkCotton

Eli, thanks. At first glance, the Pravda website seemed to have some legitimate headlines, so I thought it had finally joined the real world.

Pravda, like Yeshiva World and other frumma 'news', remains a joke.

Eli

Even Pravda nowadays is a fairly legitimate news source, unlike the frumma 'news'.
http://english.pravda.ru/
Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | February 12, 2012 at 07:54 PM

WSC, actually Pravda the newspaper no longer exists. "Pravda.ru" is an on-line tabloid, with a truncated English version. It is a lower level quality than the National Enquiror. It is not a source of legitimate news, unless by "news" one is referring to claims of UFO sitings.

Skeptical

My heart goes out to this family. If it was suicide, they will never get over the guilt, whether or not they should have done more or even could have done more to help their son. If it was a murder, their situation is even worse in that they are so terrified of the killer(s) that they won't say anything about a possible murder. One could try and trash these people because of their refusal of an autopsy, but their situation is every parents' nightmare and they have received a wound that will never heal.

Hal

Dear Lord, please make me not Jewish. I can't take it anymore.

David

It's possible that they're trying to cover up a crime that was sanctioned within the community.

Posted by: SkepticalYid | February 12, 2012 at 06:04 PM

Possibly. They are copying extremist Moslems in everything else. Maybe this was an "honour killing".

David

It's not an unusual method of attempted suicide. If you worked in an ER, you would see such a patient every few weeks.

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | February 12, 2012 at 03:46 PM

But how often is this method successful?

MM

Seymour, of course an autopsy can distinguish between murder and suicide. In this case an examination of the stab wounds, their depth, size, angle, etc., can tell whether it was physically possible for the individual to have made the wounds himself or whether it would have required someone else to make the wounds in a particular location or at a particular angle. An autopsy can often tell whether the knife was wielded right-handed or left-handed, from what height and what trajectory, what type of knife, and so on. If this death was suicide, then the knife would have been found at the scene with the individual's fingerprints, although that would not be conclusive since a murderer could have pressed the victim's fingers on the hilt and left the knife in a suitable location.

There may have also been reason for the police to consider this suicide besides the condition of the body. For example, the individual may have been known to be mentally unstable, may have attempted suicide previously, may have left a note, or have been seen putting his affairs in order.

In any case, the body snatching is inexcusable.

WoolSilkCotton

Seymour, I'm not an expert in forensics, but here are a few thoughts:

Murderous stabs would be delivered with more force and at a different angle of entry.
Murderous stabs would be deeper with internal hemorrhage as the cause of death; suicidal stabs fall short and just cause a mess of external blood.

Suicidal stabs I've seen are usually multiple slashes all over the arms, chest and belly. Murder stabs are at the chest, sides, neck and back.
Suicidal stabs are never in the back or sides.

A thorough examination by a forensic pathologist, with an internal examination of the injured area, would definitely help in determining if it's murder vs. suicide.

According to the article, police technicians at the scene claimed there was no evidence of a crime, and so the police did not demand an autopsy.
However, we never know the truth when it comes to dealings involving the frumma. Did they pressure the police into declaring 'no evidence of a crime' so there would be no autopsy? We know the police are powerless thanks to politicians who are in the back pockets of the frumma.
Anything written in Yeshiva World is like from Pravda years ago.

Even Pravda nowadays is a fairly legitimate news source, unlike the frumma 'news'.
http://english.pravda.ru/

seymour

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | February 12, 2012 at 04:09 PM


are there any signs that can determine whether it is a suicide or murder with an autopsy?

Or can an autopsy help in that determination

Shmaryah

Please delete my previous post. I regret it deeply

Litvish-hE WANTED TO GO STRAIGHT INTO GANAIDEM SO HE DID IT ON A SHABBAS WHERE THERE IS NO GEHENEM:) Posted by: jancsipista | February 12, 2012 at 06:29 PM
------
Let's take it to a higher level.

Does FOOTSTEPS teach their miserables, that erev pesach there's also no gehenem?

jancsipista

Litvish-hE WANTED TO GO STRAIGHT INTO GANAIDEM SO HE DID IT ON A SHABBAS WHERE THERE IS NO GEHENEM:)

SkepticalYid

It's possible that they're trying to cover up a crime that was sanctioned within the community.

Alter Kocker

Well the Sicarii have succeeded in denying justice. 32 self inflicted stab wounds? I seriously doubt that. More than likely the victim was murdered and the Sicarii have successfully given the perpetrator a walk.

Good going! May all of the Sicarii be found in the same position: Dead or dying of multiple stab wounds that they inflicted on themselves.

David

There are probably multiple issues here.

1) A Charedi 32 and unmarried? They normally marry 'em off by 18.

2) AFAIK, it is extremely unusual for someone to kill themself by stabbing themselves once, let alone multiple times. The autopsy may have indicated if it was suicide or murder. If murder, the purp goes free.

3) If he did really do this himself, there must be a history of self-harm. Was he ever taken to a competent psychiatrist or did they just ask the Rebbe what to do?

My condolences go to the family.

Posted by: Litvish | February 12, 2012 at 04:48 PM
-----
Please bear in mind,that a family is grieving at the same time you are enjoying yourself about it!

Litvish

He killed himself on Shabbos?

Aza hillul shabbos!!

He at least shoulda had the decency to wait until after havdolo.

What is the world coming to?

Surely we are in moshiakh tsaytn when people desecrate the heylige shabbos hakoydesh in such an unseemly way.

David

Invasion of the Body Snatchers?

jancsipista

Halahe created to sikrikim who are bonified nut cases if this is what halahe creates who needs it

WoolSilkCotton

Bas Melech, it usually involves a lot of stabs that don't penetrate beyond the fat and muscle layers, so you have a bloody mess that isn't necessarily fatal because the blood loss isn't as bad as it looks.

Most of the important arteries and veins are deeper, so the person doesn't bleed to death unless he cuts the artery in the wrist, which is not as easy to do as it sounds.

Bas Melech

Thanks WSC,
I never knew that multiple stabbings were common.

WoolSilkCotton

It's not an unusual method of attempted suicide. If you worked in an ER, you would see such a patient every few weeks.

מרדכי סטמר

There is a lot of anti-haredi feeling out there so they better be careful and cooperate with the police until things calm down.

Posted by: Confused | February 12, 2012 at 02:57 PM
-------
As far as anti chariedi and cooperation is concerned.

They (religious zionists) can cooperate with the authorities, how much meat to leave on the bone, or to suck the system dry till the bone is scratched....

When they are done "cooperating" on this, they may well see, that not much anti chariedim is left....

Confused

They are being foolish. For all they know they are being murdered by a gang of anti-haredi seculars. There is a lot of anti-haredi feeling out there so they better be careful and cooperate with the police until things calm down.

SkepticalYid

Those who prevent necessary criminal investigation are not heroes. They are criminals. Better to work with authorities and see that halachically acceptable autopsies are performed. It's been done in the past.

מרדכי סטמר

Obstructing justice and terrifying the family - yes, very heroic.

Posted by: Jeff | February 12, 2012 at 02:26 PM
-------
I don't see any crime, in obstructing a "justice" system that "by law" can round up 12 yungeliet for the only crime of "being blond"! And held without food for 24 hours! Because the victim said that her attackers were "blond"...
Or may arrest a Rabbi at 4:30 am in front of his family, just because its time to show the Eidah Hachriedis, who's the "sheriff in town"!

esther kohn

what the hell were they gonna do with the body? show it of in the streets to show that they " saved" the body from an autopsy? where did they keep it?

Bartley Kulp

The Sicarii need to be rounded up and questioned as prime suspects. This is not the "Omen". Who in the hell kills themself by stabbing themselves multiple times.

These guys are like a frum version of murder incorporated. They should call themselves the Chevra kadisha gang. You can take out a contract on anybody. Garaunteed murder and desposal within twenty four hours.

Jeff

That's why they are selfless people, and great Heros!

Obstructing justice and terrifying the family - yes, very heroic.

anuran

Yosef, I asked a friend who is very well educated in more than one school of Muslim jurisprudence. According to what he knows, if it is necessary to, say, bring a murderer to justice or find a medical fact that could save the life of a relative the autopsy is done as quickly as possible so the body may be buried in accordance with Sharia.

Yosef ben Matitya

I wonder, do salafists of shia clerics steal cadavers?

מרדכי סטמר

There are halachic grounds that allow autopsy in particular circumstances,
----------
Maybe.

But I wouldn't trust an authority who looks at Halacha as backwards and outdated.

providing all the remains are returned for burial.
--------
Bizoyon h'mes is something you missed?

If anything, they can be arrested for obstruction of justice.
---------
That's why they are selfless people, and great Heros!


Posted by: SkepticalYid | February 12, 2012 at 01:06 PM

Bas Melech

There are noninvasive ways to examine whether or not the stabbings were self inflicted.

The question is why he or someone else inflicted the stabbings. It is an unusual method of suicide.

SkepticalYid

There are halachic grounds that allow autopsy in particular circumstances, providing all the remains are returned for burial. If anything, they can be arrested for obstruction of justice.

מרדכי סטמר

Yeh..
The frumma should have waited to see if the "negotiations" between the government and Porush could bring a few extra shekels for Zaka, and Zaka could bring a heter to do the autopsy....

Instead the frumma "stupidly" showed the government,that when it comes to Halachah,"negotiations" is irrelevant.

MIkal W. Grass

The niftar stabbed himself multiple times? On Shabbos? None of this makes sense except for the behaviour of the sikrikim.

seymour

wonder how many murders go investigated in the heridie community

netflix

These Sikrikim fukers need to be stopped. Even the parents who didn't want an autopsy apparently were hurt by what they did.

I know this is a No True Scottsman argument, but these people arent religious or pious or moral or ethical. They're just lowlife criminals.

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