Haredi Health Minister Walks Out When Little Girls Choir Sings

Rabbi Yakov Litzman, a Gerrer hasid, is Israel's Deputy Minister of Health. The title Deputy Minister of Health is a legal fiction. There is no actual Minister of Health. Litzman holds the Deuty title in order to avoid having to cast cabinet votes on certain issues that are problematic for haredim. Yesterday, Litzman walked out of the country's first ever national conference for Children's Safety and Health when a choir of elementary school girls were about to start singing. The conference was sponsored by the ministry he heads.

The girls choir

Deputy health minister avoids girls' singing again
Yakov Litzman leaves children's safety event over performance by elementary school girls
Noam Barkan • Ynet

Did Deputy Health Minister Yakov Litzman leave an event over a performance of a girls choir? Sources who attended a conference for children's safety said that Litzman left the hall when a choir of girls ages 8-12 took to the stage, Yedioth Ahronoth reported Thursday. The deputy minister's office is claiming he stepped out to handle a crisis involving nurses at the Soroka Medical Center in Beersheba.

The first national conference for Children's Safety and Health was launched in Jerusalem on Wednesday with a performance by elementary school children. "I have a phone call and I'm stepping out," the deputy health minister told those next to him. He returned to his seat only after the girls had finished singing. Litzman then made a speech and then left the conference on schedule.

He initially explained his stepping out of the hall by saying his ultra-Orthodox lifestyle forbids him to attend such a performance. "I have a private lifestyle, I did not disrupt the event and I respected it as much as I could," he said. Later, members of his staff said he had left to take a phone call and handle the nurse crisis.
 
Two months ago it was reported that during a Health Ministry ceremony two female award recipients were not allowed to accept their awards on stage. Last month, during a children's wing inauguration ceremony at the Kaplan Medical Center in Rehovot, the deputy health minister left the hall in protest after a group of girls ages 12-16 started singing.

Litzman's bureau said in response, "The deputy health minister does not make a habit of attending events which include women's singing in keeping with his lifestyle and religious view.

"This does not warrant an apology and one must show understanding for a person who follows his beliefs. The deputy health minister does not interfere with the contents of the events to which he is invited. As for this specific case, he left the room to handle the nurse issue."

Halakha, Jewish law, forbids a man from hearing women sing under most circumstances. One of the exceptions to that law is is when several women sing in unison. Because the individual voices cannot be clearly distinguished, it is permitted for a man to hear the singing.

Another exception is when the female singer is a small child.

And some rabbis even agree that if the sound the man hears comes from an amplification system and not directly from the female, the man is permitted to listen to the singing.

In other words, Litzman didn't have to leave.

But he did.

Related Post: For Gerrer Hasidim, Sex is a Sin.

[Hat Tip: Shoshi.]

Comments

[Yochanan Lavie]

Shmarya states unequivocally that halacha forbids a man from hearing a woman singing under most circumstances. That is a stringent view of halacha (unfortunately becoming the norm). In fact, a man can hear a woman singing under most circumstances; the exceptions being a sexual song.

[Deremes]

Im not here to defend Litzman becuase more or less he is pro Zionism but no big deal here.
Even if the halacha on FM is that he was allowed to be there and hear the woman singing he didnt seek out a hetar from FM.
He did what most frum Jews do in their daily life Lifnim Mishurat Hadin and with all the boundaries there is more guarantee to stay pious.

[KJ]

No surprise here, in fact I would have been surprised if he stayed!

Like it or not this is in line with HIS religious belief. I fail to see why this merits a headline. Would it be a surprise if he was at event and they served non-kosher food and he refuses to eat?

[Eli]

"'I have a phone call and I'm stepping out,' the deputy health minister told those next to him."

We have been able to secure a transcript of that call.
YL: "quick, get over here, and bring lots of spit and stones!"
- : "what is it, Arabs attacking us??"
YL: "no, worse! little 8-year old girls! And they are singing!"
- : "on our way! But, YL, what if the press sees us?"
YL: "don't worry. We'll tell them it's our lifestyle choice."
- : "good thinking. We're on our way!"

[Alter Kocker]

So R. Litzman is so very fearful of his own erection that he walks away from little girls singing. I believe it is now time to lobotomize the lot of them. They must have way too much time on their hands in order to dwell on a halacha that has no meaning.

[AztecQueen2000]

At least he was nice enough to say that he had a phone call and walk out discreetly. If he had thrown something at the girls or called them whores, then would be dismayed. But the way he did it tried to prevent anyone from being embarrassed.

[Skeptical]

So, he's admitting that he is sexually stimulated by the sight of 8-year-old girls singing? The police should start investigating him!

[maven]

He should be deputy minister of sickness.

[KJ]

So, he's admitting that he is sexually stimulated by the sight of 8-year-old girls singing? The police should start investigating him!

Posted by: Skeptical | February 16, 2012 at 12:01 PM

I don't think so, I think that if the group were composed of 85 year old women he would have left also.

[KJ]

So, he's admitting that he is sexually stimulated by the sight of 8-year-old girls singing? The police should start investigating him!

Posted by: Skeptical | February 16, 2012 at 12:01 PM

I don't think so, I think that if the group were composed of 85 year old women he would have left also.

[KJ]

Sorry about the double post. I thought the first one didn't take.

[Skeptical]

"I don't think so, I think that if the group were composed of 85 year old women he would have left also.

Posted by: KJ | February 16, 2012 at 12:09 PM"

Are you saying that 85 year old women can't be sexual in any way? You need to meet my mom; she's 87 and is dating someone. Check your assumptions. I'm only saying that 8 year old LITLLE GIRLS should not have some bocher's concept of sexuality projected upon them. If this jerk cannot see that, then maybe someone else should be doing his job.

[effie]

I can't stand this guy. He was the one who interfered with the prosecution of the woman who was poisoning her own child.

[Alteh Mirrer]

It would be nice if Charedim would look at women singing(at army functions for example) as the prerogative of the women and the people who are in charge of the event. It would be nice if the non-Charedim would see respectfully walking out in observance of religious beliefs as the prerogative of religious people. But since neither side can even think in terms outside their own, both come across as petty.

[ah-pee-chorus]

i dont have a problem with him stepping out. i DO have a problem with this unqualified man being 'deputy' or acting health minister. in a yeshiva he wouldnt be faced with the awful danger of girls singing. thats where he belongs.

[George Walker]

It is outrageous that these girls' teacher would embarass a Gadol in that way. This is the ancient Tzioni way of dealing with Torah Jews who are dumb and scared enough to go on the State payroll.

[KJ]

Are you saying that 85 year old women can't be sexual in any way? You need to meet my mom; she's 87 and is dating someone. Check your assumptions.

Maybe if they had "plunging necklines" :)

Good luck with your mom! Mine is 90 and cant remember her grandchildren's names.

[seymour]

no big deal he did not ask (i assume) the girls no to sing and did not demand anything of anybody

and the people who ran this event must have known he would walk out

non story

[Adam Neira]

This is ridiculous behaviour.

What is the future of Israel going to look like ? Which model of interaction between men, women and children in the private and public realms will prevail ?

[A. Nuran]

So now we know at least one Jew who is sexually aroused by little girls' voices

[Jewish Cynic]

On today's scale of things his behavior is an improvement that should be an example to his fellow haredim.

Hearing an 8yr old girl gonna make you have unclean thoughts? - walk outside.
Seeing an 8yr old walking down the public street gonna give you an embarrassing tent in your pants? - stay inside and keep away from the windows.
Sitting near a clothed woman on a public bus gonna make your underwear gooey? - stay off the bus.

[Litvish]

This scumbag is a true representative of his constituency.

He is helping all of them to dig their own graves, b"hashem.

When the frumiks are nifter, sh'yavo bemheyra be'yameynu, they will all be sent to hell and be made to pay big time for their countless years of hillul hashem, avoda zorah, and embrace of ignorance.

[KJ]

So now we know at least one Jew who is sexually aroused by little girls' voices

Posted by: A. Nuran | February 16, 2012 at 01:23 PM

As I mentioned to "Skeptical", I don't think so, I think that if the group were composed of 85 year old women he would have left also.

[Malka Gittel]

Look, he's Ger. He's been taught that to look upon any unrelated female older than unborn will cause him to spontaneously combust.

And to hear them? OY!

He was just being polite because if he'd stayed in the room, people might have died from his exploding. He was probably on the phone with his even more elderly Ger mentor who warned him that if none of these young girls had been in a mikveh that morning, their very breathing the same air as his was a problem for him.

[who knows]

Ok, KJ, you are saying that he is equally aroused both by 8 year old girls and 85 year old women. Wow! What a sick sick individual this Rabbi Linzman is.

[who knows]

I also disagree with an idea that all of "individual lifestyle choices need to respected".

Some lifestyle choices don't deserve any respect and need to be denaunced and ridiculed.

For example parasitizm, absence of civility, procrastination, getting arousal from voices of 8 year old girls and 85 year old women....

[KJ]

Ok, KJ, you are saying that he is equally aroused both by 8 year old girls and 85 year old women. Wow! What a sick sick individual this Rabbi Linzman is.

Posted by: who knows | February 16, 2012 at 02:28 PM

I am not saying it YOU ARE. I will leave you with your own conclusion as to who is the sick one.

[David]

If he can't participate in the life of normal Israeli society he shouldn't be a Government minister. And as pointed out, it is Halachically permissible to hear women singing as long as individual voices cannot be identified - i.e. a choir is OK.

[Garnel Ironheart]

I fail to see the problem.
He didn't stop the show. He didn't override his underlings and cancel the choir. He simply walked out and let them perform. Tell me, does he have to sit and listen if he doesn't want to?

[David]

I fail to see the problem.
He didn't stop the show. He didn't override his underlings and cancel the choir. He simply walked out and let them perform. Tell me, does he have to sit and listen if he doesn't want to?

Posted by: Garnel Ironheart | February 16, 2012 at 04:06 PM

He is a Government minister. He can and must participate in normal Israeli society. And by walking out he just confirms to other Charedim that is OK to spit at little girls and call them sluts and whores.

[Jeff]

Eight year-old girls. He can't trust his "yetzer hara" around eight year-old girls. Unbe-freakin-lievable.

There's an idea, though - since the voices of young girls would appear to be Haredi kryptonite, assemble choruses of them around the perimeters of Meah Shearim, Bet Shemesh, Nachlaot, etc. Tell them to start singing, and not to stop until they reach the Jordanian border.

That's one way to solve the problem.

[ah-pee-chorus]

in fairness to litzman and others who follow the strictest view of kol isha, this doesnt mean they are aroused by little girls. if the halacha as defined by their rebbeim prohibits men from listening to girls sing of any age, they wont do it even if there is no chance of impure thoughts.
its unfair to label him that way, particularly when there are many valid ways to find fault with him.

[Malka Gittel]

He's Ger, they're female, who's surprised?

[KJ]

And by walking out he just confirms to other Charedim that is OK to spit at little girls and call them sluts and whores.

Posted by: David | February 16, 2012 at 04:28 PM

What nonsense! Walking out = spitting at little girls and calling them sluts and whores.

Amazing! Simply amazing!

[Skeptical]

"There's an idea, though - since the voices of young girls would appear to be Haredi kryptonite, assemble choruses of them around the perimeters of Meah Shearim, Bet Shemesh, Nachlaot, etc. Tell them to start singing, and not to stop until they reach the Jordanian border."

Great idea! Perfect non-violent resistence! These little girls should go to school singing.

"...if the halacha as defined by their rebbeim prohibits men from listening to girls sing of any age, they wont do it even if there is no chance of impure thoughts. "

You need to ask yourself why this would be prohibited - obviously someone thinks there is a chance of impure thoughts You also need to ask whether a person who obviously has no capacity for independent thought should hold public office. You are correct that there are probably more valid reasons to trash the guy but he displayed this conduct in public as a public official. Consequently, I certainly question his fitness for office, just as I would a US president who attempted to convert the nation to his brand of Christianity.

[who knows]

APC, I agree that Lintzman may not have impure thoughts when 8 year olds are singing.

However, his rabbis certainly do, since they ask their followers not to listen because of impure thoughts. By walking out he either validates that he himself gets unclean thoughts or that other members of his community do or that he is thoughtless blind follower, which must be a disqualification from a job of governement minister.

[ah-pee-chorus]

Skeptical -

you must be fairly new here if youre asking me to defend another ridiculous perversion of judaism.my comment | here-February 16, 2012 at 12:33 PM
should make clear how i feel about him.
the point i made regarding whether his exit indicates an attraction to little girls was quite specific. dont jump from there to unconnected conclusions.

You need to ask yourself why this would be prohibited

i know why. the rabbis have always engaged in a battle for more and more restrictions and hate human sexuality .

[ah-pee-chorus]

who knows -

of those options i would say he's a "thoughtless blind follower" , just like most all religious people, and the only job hes qualified for is teaching others his brand of delusional fantasy. on that we prob agree.
all i'm saying is that walking out shows he believes in the fundie/charedi view of halacha in which you follow blindly regardless of whether you know the reasoning or agree with it,or whether it applies to you at all. i'm quite sure that even if he were a closeted gay who is turned off by all females, he would still follow rules like this. this exit doesnt show his attraction to girls, but to mindless compliance with his favorite rabbis rules.

[ah-pee-chorus]

shame on netanyahu for allowing this guy to represent the govt.

[seymour]

i know why. the rabbis have always engaged in a battle for more and more restrictions and hate human sexuality .

Posted by: ah-pee-chorus | February 16, 2012 at 06:32 PM

I always compare to rock or heavy metal each new band wants to out do the other and will create a more outrageous act

same with the rabbis they want to be noticed so they come up with more outrageous prohibitions

[Lo K'darkah]

What is inevitable is that when the 8 yr old girls hear how the "deputy minister" walked out, they will say to themselves (as 8 yr old girls do) "wow..he regards us as women, and not little girls. That's sort of exciting. Since we are women, maybe we should do other things that grown women do ...like cook cholent, and go shopping for clothes, and make babies in our tummies (whatever that involves)."

[David]

And by walking out he just confirms to other Charedim that is OK to spit at little girls and call them sluts and whores.

Posted by: David | February 16, 2012 at 04:28 PM

What nonsense! Walking out = spitting at little girls and calling them sluts and whores.

Amazing! Simply amazing!

Posted by: KJ | February 16, 2012 at 05:58 PM

Indeed it does! He is (just) smart enough not to spit at them or call them whores but he clearly shows that little girls singing in the presence of a man is not to be tolerated due to the uncontrollable sexual tension it creates among the Charedim.

Amazing! Simply amazing!

[David]

Making this clown a "government minister" makes about as much sense as giving a PhD to a chimpanzee and calling him "Doctor".

Or calling a Charedi a "taxpayer", "honest", "hard worker", "good parent", "patriot" or...."a Jew".

[Noah]

Carve a Pe on his forehead now!
Any man who has to leave an area because he is aroused by young girls singing is a paedophile.

[Rebitzman]

Reading where this issues is addressed in Talmud and the Shulchan Aruch, I suppose one CAN arrive at the conclusion arrived at by the rabbi and other Charedi groups. HOWEVER, it's just as (if not more) reasonable to interpret it as Shmarya did above and in fact that is exactly HOW we interpreted it for close to 2000 years (until this contest over who coud be more observant began).

That said - while I do not subscribe to the man's belief in this regard, as long as he doesn't try to ram those beliefs down my throat........he's welcome to them. In this case he made no scene and even tried provide an excuse that would spare the kids embarrassment. No harm, no foul.

[who knows]

He provided a model of behavior which, if followed, will eventually make such concerts impossible and will surely embarrass kids.

Therefore, even though a short term harm is minimal the long term damage is considerable.

[Confused]

Therefore, even though a short term harm is minimal the long term damage is considerable.

Posted by: who knows | February 17, 2012 at 07:32 AM

I hope the damage can be repaired at minimal expense.

What I don't understand is that if the reason for him leaving was because he was so turned on, then why did he leave to make a phone call. He should have gone to the bathroom instead.

[ruth]

this holy rabbi is also protecting pedophiles here, so go and check it out and you write the story. if you need help i will give some info - you are a good journalist you will not have a problem to find out who his dear friend is.

may all these monsters rot in hell and those who aid and abet them- here if a minister walks out its saying that is offical government policy to treat little girls like whores
and we do not agree with that. its from the top telling us that we can do nothing about his sexual problems because only a sick man has a problem with little girls singing
any normal man here and i know many love songs and singing. this is all garbage dressed up in religious clothes.
they are a shame to us and i am disgusted and i come from jewish royalty and all the big rabbi's going back to rashi. so i can say that being religious does not give you the right to be a pervert.

[Maskil]

Another exception is when the female singer is a small child.

Reb Moshe (Feinstein) clearly paskened (published in Igrot Moshe) that a man may not attend a performance featuring penuyot tehorot (unmarried females who were not impure from menstruation), i.e. girls that had gone to mikveh since their last period, or more specifically who had not begun to menstruate.

[Re: amplification, I have not found a rabbi who can delineate a distinction between a man who can sing in a voice simulating that of a woman's (certainly permitted) and a musical instrument that can produce a sound similar to that of a woman (known today as a "speaker" or "output device"). And I have searched.]

[Skeptical]

apc - usually, I agree with you, but in this case, don't seem to "get it." By walking out, this jerk is telling girls and women that their contribution to public life is not wanted and that they should be silent. By walking out, he is, essentially saying that the government should not listen to women. In case you think this is too much subtext, remember we are talking about a message to children. In dealing with children, especially girls, there is often a lot of subtext, which is why men are often mystified by teenage girls.