When It Comes To Haredim, It's Time To Forget The Future

The state's subsidizing of the ultra-Orthodox exacts a huge cost from us, an issue that has been widely discussed. It is a loss that grows with the ever-increasing haredi population, and pushes Israel closer to the abyss. What is less known, but no less important, is that the Haredi population also pays a heavy price for the reverse discrimination it receives from the authorities.

File photo: A clash of cultures

Time to forget the future
By Aner Shalev • Ha’aretz

What do the following statements have in common? The Tal Law (which allows full-time yeshiva students to defer national service ) should be extended by five years. The Tal Law should be extended by one year. Israel will present its position on borders at the end of the three months given by the European Union. Israel will present its position on borders after security arrangements are agreed by both sides. Medical residents will receive their full wage increment in nine years. Yes, all of these statements involve the future.

In our post-ideological times, it's great to be exposed to a powerful ideological dispute, just like in the good old days. What's more, this dispute involved major figures, the prime minister and the defense minister, on a subject of the highest principle - whether to extend the Tal Law by five years or one year. At this point, the prime minister dropped his maximalist position and preferred to postpone any discussion on the matter.

The Tal Law is but one of a long series of benefits the government grants to the ultra-Orthodox. As well as this sweeping exemption from military service, enshrined in an infuriating law passed by the government of Ehud Barak, Haredi schools are exempt from the core curriculum. Then there are the cash benefits: allowances to yeshiva students and children, welfare payments, affordable housing, huge discounts in municipal taxes, and more.

The state's subsidizing of the ultra-Orthodox exacts a huge cost from us, an issue that has been widely discussed. It is a loss that grows with the ever-increasing Haredi population, and pushes Israel closer to the abyss. What is less known, but no less important, is that the Haredi population also pays a heavy price for the reverse discrimination it receives from the authorities.

A comparison of the socioeconomic status of ultra-Orthodox groups in Israel and New York is illuminating in this regard, and fascinating conclusions may be drawn. Haredi groups are not offered special subsidies or easier conditions there, and yet the ultra-Orthodox population is flourishing. While most Haredim in Israel - despite, or perhaps because of, the benefits heaped upon them - suffer poverty and many other hardships.

Indeed, the lack of a core curriculum severely impairs the wage-earning abilities of those wishing to work, and the various allowances encourage dependence, passiveness, unemployment and increased numbers of children, all of which prevent Haredim in Israel from thriving like their brethren in New York. Vocational training in certain fields, which military service sometimes provides, is also denied to most Haredim.

The abnormal relations between the state and the Haredi population is damaging to both sides. And yet it seems that this discrimination, harmful to all, will go on; that the Haredim will never enter the job market despite the recommendations of the Trajtenberg committee (which suggested new incentives and training programs ); and that the Tal Law will be extended repeatedly, with the only ideological conflict being whether to extend it every year or once every five years.

Similarly, Israel will probably never present the Palestinians with its position on borders, because prior agreement on security arrangements will never be attained, or the date for drawing the proposed borderline will be postponed ad nauseam. The future is politicians' warm, safe shelter.

In his book "The Invention of Tomorrow," Daniel S. Milo argues that the concept of the future is what makes the human race unique and defines it. Other species have no such concept; they live only in the present. The invention of the future has allowed the human race to develop quickly and take control of the world, but it is also a source of humanity's suffering and unsolved problems.

Our politicians contribute generously to this suffering. What differentiates them from the rest of the population, and puts them at the top of the evolutionary chain, is that they, almost exclusively, use the future tense. Therefore, they will never solve our problems. Without change now, we have no future.

Comments

[B]

The future belongs to those who show up. If the secular opponents of the Haredim prioritized children over careerism and hollow recreational activities, they wouldn't have the problem of an increasingly Haredi population. On a related note, the most important element of a Jewish state is Jews; by that metric, the Haredim are contributing well above their weight.

[jancsipista]

B- What you just wrote is tottal gibbrish makes no sense,they are sucking the country dry

[Confused]

It is quite clear that they will extend it by one year (g-d forbid if the extend it by 5) BUT they must begin the reduction. Start with a modest 5% reduction with an option of making up the difference with some form of community service and take it from there.

A journey of a thousand miles begins with one step.

[B]

Before proclaiming that someone else's opinion is total gibberish, you might want to learn to spell and punctuate.

I am not saying that the kollel system is sustainable-it will change. On the other hand, the one-sided "they are sucking the country dry," "what a bunch of parasites," etc. portrayals are simplistic hysterical vitriol in large part motivated by the envy and hatred those who have traded in their share in the future for a bowl of lentil soup (keeping up with the Jones') have for those who are beating them in the arena of reproduction. When you are looking at getting old with cats and nothing to show for your youth but some credentials and exotic travel stories, and then see your neighbor in his black hat with four or six kids, something bitter must well up in your soul.

Israel's economy is doing fine, especially when compared to the majority of the world. Many of the Haredim frei out and become regular secular taxpayers; many others work and serve in the military. Again, the current system is a historic abnormality brought about by abnormal conditions, and will no doubt change in response to the environment, but much of the criticism directed at it is driven by hate and envy.

[jancsipista]

B-Again youre writing nonsense,you dont know me, what if i tell you i ahve 6 children and dozens of gradchildren which i do i am talking about the ultras not the plain hareidim

[B]

Congratulations on your reproductive success.

What's the difference between ultra and plain hareidim? Do the former wear blacker hats?

[Joe Field]

Posted by: B | January 28, 2012 at 08:15 PM

You argument lacks any merit, societies do not flourish because they have a large reproduction rate, it is education and the willingness to work to make your children’s life better than their parents are, which by any metric the charediem fail miserably. Look at China they are not flourishing because they have a 1.3 billion people, it is education and hard work.

[Litvish]

B

jancsipista has more wisdom in his little finger than you do in your entire brain.

Read some of his past comments. He has a fascinating history and knows of what he speaks when it comes to haredim and the orthodox community here and in pre-war Europe.
---

If anything, the haredim have shown no evidence of their willingness to pay the taxes to sustain Israel ( or America, for that matter), respect the laws of the land, learn English and other mandated subjects in American schools or those required in schools in Israel, serve in the armed forces and integrate with others in those forces, work in the mainstream workforce and other essential things shared by their fellow citizens.

I am not the first to suggest that they are a greater threat to Israel and the future of the Jewish people than the Iranians and Muslim terrorists.

[AztecQueen2000]

What good is it to have large families if they contribute nothing to the upkeep of society? Children are only as good as the adults they become. If children learn from a young age that "G-d (or the government) will provide and I don't have to do anything," then we will continue down the path of increased resentment. If, however, they prove that they are willing to work, serve in the army, and pay taxes without acting as though their increased level of religiosity puts them above such petty concerns, then there will be a change in attitude.

[shmiel]

WHO NEEDS CHAREDIM IN THE ARMY ,THEY ARE OUT OF SHAPE I SPOKE TO A NUMBER OF THEM "most want to work let them avoid the draft by working or learning & you will have many more in the workforce it costs the country money to have them in the army

[shish]

If the secular opponents of the Haredim prioritized children over careerism and hollow recreational activities, they wouldn't have the problem of an increasingly Haredi population.

Posted by: B | January 28, 2012 at 07:43 PM

You're a moron. You stupidly advise the seculars to increase their birth rate in order to keep up with the Haredim's astronomical rate.

You uninformedly ignore the fact that the main critique against Haredi society in israel is that all of their institutions, and their ability to have astronomical birth rates, are subsidized by the non-haredi Israeli public against the latter's will. You moronically blame this situation on the seculars for not having enough children, instead of unequivocally blaming the Haredim for indeed "sucking the country dry" by exploiting secular tax dollars.

The non-Haredi public has no moral obligation to fight the Haredi onslaught by having more secular children. In contrast, the Haredim have an absolute moral obligation to stop their own exploitative and impositional platform.

Stop blaming secular Israelis for having pets, and start blaming Haredim for behaving like blood-sucking, exploitative, and impositional parasites.

[Robert Wisler]

I think that the best test of "B's" theories would be to equalize government aid to the seculars and the hareidim. If everyone was on an equal footing subsidy-wise, and if the hareidim prospered in their lifestyle, then "B's" argument would be valid. However, at this point, the hareidim are recipients of unfair and unsustainable privileges that are not offered to other residents of Israel. Thus, "B's" point is utterly ridiculous.

[Eli]

B I, reproductive success equates with evolutionary success, which is relevant to species survival, not societal health in a situation of limited resources. Outbreeding resources has led to disastrous conclusions in any number of situations. I commend Jared Diamond's "Collapse". And I would say Israel's subsidies are the equivalent of Easter Islander' cutting down their last trees to erect and move large religious statues, denying their future ability to build boats and survive.
Today, poor villages in India and Africa are "showing up" with children. Western economies are not. Which are thriving?

[מרדכי סטמר]

You don't have to be a genius to fix the problem!

Take away the hurdles that the chariedim have in Israel, and they will perform as their brethren in New York perform

[A. Nuran]

Ah yes, מרדכי סטמר, welfare fraud, section 8 fraud, corrupting government officials, Medicaid fraud, keeping businesses going by ignoring goyishe laws, money laundering, ponzi schemes and getting everything classified as tax exempt religious stuff.

An unsustainable parasitic lifestyle on both sides of the Atlantic.

[Jeff]

On the other hand, the one-sided "they are sucking the country dry," "what a bunch of parasites," etc. portrayals are simplistic hysterical vitriol in large part motivated by the envy and hatred those who have traded in their share in the future for a bowl of lentil soup (keeping up with the Jones') have for those who are beating them in the arena of reproduction. When you are looking at getting old with cats and nothing to show for your youth but some credentials and exotic travel stories, and then see your neighbor in his black hat with four or six kids, something bitter must well up in your soul.

Typical frum rationalization - "You're jealous of us!" Right. We all long to wear black woolen suits in the desert and run to the rebbe every time we need permission to go to the bathroom.

Idiot.

[Jeff]

Take away the hurdles that the chariedim have in Israel, and they will perform as their brethren in New York perform

Posted by: מרדכי סטמר | January 28, 2012 at 11:51 PM

Another brilliant statement from the latest troll. What hurdles? No one in history has ever been coddled as these people are.

Really, you are such an unsalvageable imbecile it's a crime you've been allowed to reproduce. You should be prohibited by law from passing on your DNA.

[ruthie]

B...
brainwashed

education, art, music, books, books, education, hard work, work
and i love lentil soup.

[who knows]

B has one point right - seculars don't have enough children (under 2 per a woman).

However B forgets to examine the reasons. In Israel an average secular woman wants to have 3-4 kids but prevernted from it by high taxes which go to sustain haredi 12 kids. Thus Haredim, in effect, steal secular children by robbing public blind and refusing to share the burden of military service.

This Haredi discrimination against the rest of the population must stop immidiately.

[מרדכי סטמר]

Another brilliant statement from the latest troll. What hurdles?
------
Military draft, work ban without military service!

You should be prohibited by law from passing on your DNA. Posted by: Jeff | January 29, 2012 at 04:09 AM
--------
When your dream law will be enacted,
don't think that because you are a self hating jew, your kind of jew will be exempted from this law!

[מרדכי סטמר]

Posted by: A. Nuran | January 29, 2012 at 12:35 AM

I don't know what the hell you are talking about!
Nobody from my immediate circle (and they are numerous...) does this kind of stuff that you try to smear on the chariedi population.
And I'm sure that you neither know personally any chariedi doing it,
But in your instilled hatred you "see" it as a fact,because on this website you "see" it repeated at nausea!

Any how: when the world looks at jews, as swindlers and untrust worthy, do they see a chariedi? Or do they see the kind of jew you are usually proud of?

Berny Madoff rings a bell?!
All your fraud allegations combined, doesn't match the numbers stolen from one single ganef of yours!

Did Elliot Spitzer make you proud?
How about Anthony Wiener?

The Enron schemers?

[jancsipista]

מרדכי סטמר -- Now youre showing youre true face always falling back on the self- hating jew defence
jeff is 1 thousand per cent on the ball you guys mordechay are impossible, only when you have a tragedy will you wake up until then nothing fazes you ,but then it will be late

[abcdef]

Actually Satmar brings up an excellent point. As much as the secular Jews here would like to convince themselves that when an anti-semite hates a Jew he's thinking of a chassid with long peyis, the reality is that the chassidim and chareidim aren't what they are thinking of...

The anti-semites are hating the secular Jewish professionals- Jews who work in finance, politicians, lawyers, doctors, bankers, stock-brokers, and so on.

Hating the chareidim doesn't mask the fact that the anti-semites will always think of YOU as the Jews they hate - as professional and secular as you think you are, you'll always be that dirty, theiving, Jew!

[jancsipista]

abcdef-I dont care what low life nonjews think they are frustrated with their own lifes so they find it easy to gang up on rich jews that kind of anti semitism is managable but those anti- semites who take action physically harming jews that is the problem not the hot headed fristrated goyim,besides did you ever think that a regular jew walking on the street looks just like any other nonjew but not a hassid he stands out and is easily identifiable they are the ones who take the brunt of raving lunatic nonjews

[Yaakov]

jancsipista:

I have come to believe that Mordechai is actually a reasonable person who is also an ideologue. That is, he wants his ideology to make sense, and seeks to make "rational" arguments for it.

He is also human and gets upset like all of us, and so says things that are simply attacks like "self-hating Jew". The problem here is not putting the assumptions clearly on the table.

Mordechai can correct me if I am wrong but I think there are a few important principles which must be understood in every argument with him.

• There is one general way of life, with little variation, that is "Jewish". Mordechai contends that this is a matter of close adherence to the Shulchan Aruch.
• People who sit and learn all day are doing more for the preservation of Israel and the Jewish people than soliders, doctors, scientists, or anyone else.
• "This world is like a corridor of the world to come…" Olam haba is the reason for this life. The value of this life is to do mitzvot and collect "credit" for the final reward. Suffering in this life is even an advantage in terms of "credit" after 120 years.
• Satmar and similar groups, by not taking direct support from the goverment of Israel for things like yeshivot, are exempt from any obligation to the states in which they live.

As I understand it, none of these ideas are flexible. So, Mordechai feels he is being reasonable because to him these are self-evident truths. If there is no other view on these things, he can't see any way to understand why other folks are being reasonable and righteous in there own positions. To Mordechai, if you do not accept the listed ideas, you can't really be living a Jewish life.

I do think that Mordechai is actually concerned about other Jews, even if they are not living "right" by his understanding. That's why he has to push away "self-hating Jews". It's the only way not to get confused about how to deal with them.

Given all this, I think we need take what Mordechai says as intended to be in support of klal Yisrael, but, just as he thinks we are mistaken we see him as mistaken. I don't think there is any chance of changing his mind at all.

[B]

Again, more rage and vitriol. I thought being secular meant approaching life with a calm rationality? Oops.

A high standard of living as exemplified by iPhones, hybrid cars and trips to exotic locales isn't worth much if the cost is extinction.

Jeff,

The envy that I see comes not from the frei Jews longing to put on kapotes and sirtuks in August, but from their lack of a long-term future. Sadly, if current reproductive rates hold, in a few generations they will be gone from the face of the earth, through assimilation or just plain failing to reproduce.

Eli,

is Detroit thriving? What about Baltimore? Buffalo, NY, maybe? I've been all over the world, in all kinds of warzones and poor countries, but I've never seen anything comparable to this kind of squalor except for in Iraq. Also, again, to thrive, you have to show up to the future. There are plenty of civilizations which are extinct, victim to their inability to resist wealth and power's dysgenic effects.

Who knows,

If the average secular woman in Israel wanted kids as much as the average Haredi woman, she would have them. When there's a will, there's a way. Unfortunately, due to cultural brainwashing, what most women in their prime there want are careers, exotic vacations, iPhones, etc. In a democracy (which I assume everyone here supports,) a growing and disciplined voter block generally trumps a split and shrinking one. Maybe you could institute a 3/5th's rule based on headgear, or weigh votes proportional to productivity (which I might support.)

Wisler,

You are right-I completely support the cutting of governmental subsidies to Haredim and seculars alike.

[jancsipista]

Yaakov- The way i see the world since childhood and i was raised partially in a satmer atmosphere. even as a child my mind was tuned into the real world and not something that we imagine and live out our fantasy that is not real,he mordechay can say anything but in reality it is not what counts what we see with our own eyes is what counts,after all the jews went trough a horrible tragedy both my parents wents theough it and no one came well america in a way rescued the jews from tottal annihilation so to me israel was created for the purpose of defending or being in a position to defend the jews who are persecuted,the germans were able to do what they did becuase of their high technology if the jews would of been in the position they are today learned in science and have an army the holocaust would not of happened as it did so mordechay can say whatever he wishes to but reality is what counts at the end not fantasy

[B]

America not only did nothing but covered up the Holocaust while it was going on (http://tinyurl.com/2tb5yf). Had America wanted to prevent it, it could have just asked Hitler to export the Jews under his control, maybe in exchange for sacks of wheat-he would have gladly done so. In fact, Hitler's original plan was to deport the Jewish population of Germany to Madagascar, but when the Allies blockaded the continent (in an attempt to starve the Nazis out) that became impossible. Since he saw economics and food production as a zero-sum game and the Jews as useless mouths (a viewpoint not too far removed from some of the things I've been hearing about Haredim,) Hitler decided on the Final Solution, which the Allies did nothing to prevent. A decent source is here (http://tinyurl.com/7x3m633).

Anyway, the only countries I know that did much to save Jews were the Dominican Republic, Japan (as Shmarya mentioned) and the Soviet Union (surprisingly.)

When it comes to full-on governmental antisemitism, not having the full Orthodox regalia and assimilating is to no avail, as the Jews of Germany found out in the 1930s and the Jews of the USSR in the 1950s. And Mordechai is completely right-nothing contributes to antisemitism as much as assimilated but still recognizable Jews running ahead of the locomotive with political and economic policies which objectively harm the country's ethnic majority. The guys in the Orthodox regalia are generally perceived as loopy but harmless-the Bernankes, Greenspans, Trotskys, Morgenthaus, etc.? Not so much.

[seymour]

Posted by: B | January 29, 2012 at 09:13 AM

read mein kanf

the first image that Hitler had of those Jews where the one in the black kaftan

another words Hasidim

[Eli]

B, you thought you were making a point about out-breeding others as a sign of success and making it to the future, and I think you realize that it was a silly thing to say. We're not talking about the future of an economy and nation, not the reproductive success of insects.
Having more offspring, especially if done without contributing to the accumulation of more resources for society generally, is a recipe for disaster.
While disdaining the "secular careerists" you mention, it doesn't seem the haredi are shy about living off the redistribution of the the bounty they produce.

[Dovid]

Brilliant idea, B. yes, let's have everybody in Israel become like these haredim having 15 kids and refusing to work. Tell us then how you and your 15 kids will eat?

[Yaakov]

jancsipista:

Yes, that's my point. Each of you has a basic worldview at odd with one another. You are not going to accept what Mordechai sees as the foundation of Yiddishkeit, and the world, and he will not abandon the concepts he holds dear. This means that a meeting of minds is impossible.

Someone who believed the things that Mordechai does, but as one alternative among many, could reach agreement with you. But, Mordechai is an ideologue and sees one way only. He cannot accommodate any alternative because his beliefs are based in exclusivity. His pleas to be "left alone" are temporally constrained. He wants to be left alone until moshiach takes over the world for the Jews.

Anyway, I like Mordechai, and I don't mean that in a condescending way. He seems to me a basically good person with a sincere desire to do right. I don't think he is among the corrupt or manipulative. If anything, he is a victim of the people he holds up as gadolim. I don't say this to be disrespectful to him. I surely could be wrong and he right. I don't think so, obviously, but I am not perfect or omniscient.

I would like Mordechai as a friend but we could never discuss philosophy or religion. Unlike others here, I suspect he would be pleasant company over a glass of schnapps and with non-provoking conversation.

[jancsipista]

Yaakov-I understand but he mordechay has to realize that his position is not reality he is in a nice fantasy that is detached from reality of course he has the luxury to be what he wishes to be but if you want to be real then look at the worls not through blurry glases,he should surely know by this time that mishiah is a fantasy after all nothing helped during the holocaust to save most of the jews from destruction this world is a mercilees place and if youre an idealouge then youre at the mercty of the nonjews that is why israel was created and his ilk want to destroy it no excuse for that

[Bas Melech]

There are 2 types of chareidim in EY, those who follow the Eidah and those who follow the Agudah. (also a 3rd NK). Generally, the Eida followers do not recognize the medina, whereas the Agudah followers do.

If the Agudists recognize the government and vote in Israeli elections, why don't they serve in the IDF?

The Eidah followers are consistent in their anti-Zionist belief, so do not serve in the IDF. However, recently they began voting in the elections. Also, I know that they have a heter to receive Bituach Leumi for their children.

[Yaakov]

jancsipista:

Yes, I think his ideological stance is mistaken. I don't think I can convince him otherwise, though, so I look for the good, which I think is really there, and enjoy that.

It is good to oppose his ideas, and good that you do. It is good to comment on his comments and stand up for what you believe. But, he is a fellow Jew and unlike some here who are quite mean-spirited, and make ugly, indefensible comments, he is more like a person who is off the derech on account of mistaken beliefs and isn't seeking to hurt anyone.

Mordechai:

My comments to jancsipista are sincere. I am honestly not being condescending to you. I disagree with you very basically, but not completely. Some of the more abstract things you believe I believe too. I feel, and this is a sincere expression, you are off the derech. I know that's how you feel about me. I want you to see that I can have the same idea about you, and not because of jealousy or hatred. I just think you've been lead astray by both sincere and insincere "authorities" in orthodoxy.

[Yaakov]

I will add that if and when it comes down to practical matters of self-defense, I will reluctantly fight those who would try to make me act and think as they do. In particular, those who claim authority to tell me what I must do to be a "good Jew" will not find a soft target if it comes to conflict.

Thank God, I live in America and I am free of such control. I won't let that change for me, my wife, or my children; nor for my neighbors. I will stand up rhetorically or otherwise to defend our liberty.

[Bas Melech]

jancsipista | January 29, 2012 at 11:37 AM

Members of my family live in a fantasy world too.

Unfortunately, many young people don't understand anything about the holocaust. They explain the causes for destruction as little bitachon in hashem by the non-religious assimilated Jews. Today's rabbis encourage that thinking.

Those who do not learn the lessons of history are condemned to repeat it. Tragically, we see it happening. The most despicable behavior is committed by religious leaders in the name of perpetuating their fantasies.

[Deremes]

After watching this documentary you will get a different picture on the observant Jews who survived the Holocaust and stayed faithful:

http://www.vosizneias.com/88925/2011/08/09/new-york-powerful-documentary-of-holocaust-survivors/

[B]

Seymour,

Have you read "mein kanf"? Judging by the fact that you don't know how to spell its title (it's KAMPF,) I'm guessing not. As far as I know Jews who drove Hitler up the wall were not the Chasidim, of whom there were barely any in Germany and Austria. The ones who drove him crazy were the assimilated Weimar oligarchs, the Bernankes of his time. Likewise, the impetus behind Stalin's later antisemitism was fully assimilated Soviet officials, not the few remaining observant Soviet Jews. Not that Hitler's and Stalin's opinion is any indicator of who's right and wrong, but it goes to show that assimilation, social success and secular values are in no way likely to reduce antisemitism.

Eli,

Without the biological substratum of a growing or stable population, economic and national success is impossible. Witness the collapse of various pension and other ponzi schemes as the future generations which are supposed to pay are smaller than the generations which are supposed to receive. When twice as many people are drawing from, say, Social Security, as are paying into it, the whole thing fails. You can stop subsidizing the children and grandchildren of the Haredim; they will go to work and you can tax their income; you can't tax the children the seculars would have had but didn't in favor of career and consumption. Tell me you understand what I'm saying.

Dovid,

You're making unwarranted assumptions about me, such as the assumption that I am only capable of supporting ideas that benefit me, therefore, I must be a Haredi with 15 children.

As you can see, I do not support mass welfare schemes, and believe that in their absence, the Haredim are quite capable of having and supporting many children, as many do in the US. If the secular Jews made the same choices, i.e., procreation vs. consumption, I would be very happy.

[jancsipista]

Mordechay&Yaakov-No matter what mordechay writes to me will not budge me from my oppinion because iwas there i was more satmer then a satmer as i wrote to you as a child what happened to me and how i was raised by my no other then holier then thou rebbi,the same rebbi that tought us tzar bal hay was beating us mercileesly and our town shohet and moelt molested me in the mikva at age 10 i will not write about this there were other things evil that they did they felt like god thats how i feel about the fanatically religious we see the same thing in mass today the same things molestation all done by those are supposedly refined in the true torah way molesting young innocent children this and trying to protect those molesters what a shame on our religion by those who claim what mordechay claims that he is or his way is the right and true way,no offense to you mordechay you are more reasonable then alot of youre peers i am not mad at you but lets face reality,it is cruel especially when youre a child

[Apostate]

Funny how people like B define personal "success" by reproduction rates and the volume of litters they spew. That kind of accomplishment can be found in any barnyard or in the forest with the furry animals.

The second anybody tries to touch Hasidic welfare bennies the first words emanating from their hairy jaws will be "Holocaust!" and "Nazis!" What else where you expecting?

[Shmarya]

Posted by: B | January 29, 2012 at 12:46 PM

Quite a bizarre and selective understanding of history and of the current social situation here and in Israel.

Ever hear of the oustyuden? They were Eastern Europeans, mostly hasidim, who moved to Germany after WW1.

Much, but not all, of the Nazis' antisemitism used oustyuden as scapegoats.

Past that, American haredim with 15 kids almost always get WIC and other government support as do haredim with 7 kids.

Crown Heights, Borough Park, Williamsburg, Monsey, New Square and Kiryas Joel are jammed packed with haredim on various welfare programs.

In fact, Kiryas Joel is the poorest town in the entire country.

I don't know if you're ignorant or if you're simply lying.

Either way, the facts don't support you.

If you keep making these 'mistakes' or if you keep lying, I'll ban you.

[Yaakov]

janscipista:

You said,

No matter what mordechay writes to me will not budge me from my oppinion…

Yes, surely. When it comes to the foundational ideas that make up your worldview I cannot imagine Mordechai arguing you to a different view. You and he are at loggerheads in the most refractory way. I am also at odds with Mordechai, and I will not budge either.

My only point is that Mordechai, as a person is far from the most offensive one here. Many people who argue similarly to him are not just mistaken, they are vile in their behavior to others. I don't see that with Mordechai, which you also seem to agree with.

[Deremes]

Posted by: B | January 29, 2012 at 12:46 PM

You are right that the assimilated jews is what drove Hitler yemch shmoe vazicro crazy he also mentions in mein kampf the jew with the black kaftan he saw somewhere in Viana.

[B]

Apostate,

If I were like some on here, I would call you an idiot. As it stands, I'd like to point out that in order for human accomplishment to happen, you first need humans. Since a small minority of humans are the ones responsible for most human accomplishment, i.e., for every Einstein, Feynman or Feinstein there will be ten thousand Shlemielowitzes, you need lots of humans. I don't know why this idea is so difficult to grasp.

Second, presumably, you believe in evolution; the idea that evolutionary fitness is solely a function of offspring surviving to reproduce, with no value judgments applicable, should therefore be something you believe, right? So why do you have such difficulty applying this concept to guys in black hats?

Third, I'd like to point out that you are assuming I am a Hasid, have lots of children or am on welfare with no real basis to do so; you are also failing to notice that the Holocaust was brought up by jancipista, not me or Mordechai. Perhaps it is this kind of softskulled thinking that led you to apostasy.

[B]

Shmarya,

How many ostjuden were there in Weimar Germany? How many mentions of them can you find in Hitler's works? Please cite something for me and dispel my ignorance. When you're done, please compare the amount of citations with those about assimilated post-enlightenment Yekke oligarchs.

I have friends in CH and Monsey, who have many children and yet are not on welfare. Obviously, I am aware that this does not reflect the situation of all the black hatters. Still, some statistics to support your assertion that "American haredim with 15 kids almost always get WIC and other government support as do haredim with 7 kids" would be nice.

As I have said repeatedly, I do not support government welfare for ANYBODY, but view the situation with a bit of nuance. BTW, in the article you cited about Ethiopians, lavish weddings held by welfare recipients are mentioned in passing-where is your outrage?

As for the ban-it's your blog, I wholeheartedly support your freedom to suppress dissent. Still, don't you think that the comments section could use a little bit of informed debate vs. agreement and sycophancy?

[jancsipista]

Deremes-Unbeleivable you dont see youre mindlessways,there is no such thing asone group of jews were more responsible then the other religious or nonreligious i cant beleive you can comprehend such a simple thing ,you are trying to play god who knows it all stating that the assimilated jews were driving him crazy this beyond stupidity how can you know you are trying to judge others who arent like you what a mindless stupid statement you made

[jancsipista]

meant to write agreeing with b how can anyone be such a gigantic shoite is beyond me this shows a hatered for the other who isnt like you

[Shmarya]

Lets see.

Kiryas Joel has the HIGHEST RATE OF POVERTY IN THE ENTIRE COUNTRY.

KJ is ENTIRELY haredi.

That you don't know this – or pretend not to know it – makes you look like a fool.

The article about Ethiopians doesn't talk about "lavish" weddings for people on welfare.

She's talking about the financial gains many of the younger Ethiopian Jews have made, not the welfare cheating that is so common in frum communities.

Past this, the idea that you, in your own moronic words, "do not support government welfare for ANYBODY," shows that you are not of the bnei rachamim.

If you don't know what that means, I'll help you. People who are not bnei rachamim are considered in Jewish law to be suspect Jews, meaning their linage is suspect.

Think about that.

[Robert Wisler]

Deremes,
This documentary manages to skip over all the other peoples who were persecuted by the Nazis and held fast to their Catholic or Eastern Orthodox faiths. Why can't we stop monopolizing the Holocaust for our own aggrandizement?

[B]

I am quite aware of Kiryat Joel. All you have to do now is to show that the situation there is not an anomaly and extends to CH, Williamsburg, Monsey and Borough Park.

The article about Ethiopia says this: ""Many people will be on welfare lists, but if you go to an Ethiopian wedding it's rich - there's tons of gold jewelry and beautiful dresses, liquor flows and it is altogether a very high standard of wedding that you would never have seen in Ethiopia," she says." It is possible to read that passage in two ways: either people who are on welfare are having lavish weddings, or people in a community with many welfare recipients are having lavish weddings. I suspect that if it were the residents of Kiryat Joel having lavish weddings, you'd condemn them as welfare parasites without giving them the benefit of the doubt.

I think that when you purposely conflate mercy and government welfare, you are either being obtuse or hypocritical. The government gathers money by coercion; even if it redistributes some of the money to the poor, most of it ends up in the pockets of public servants. I believe in individuals giving tzedakah of their own free will, which they can't do under coercion, and in the recipients being grateful, which welfare tends to inhibit. Obviously, if I show up to your house, put a gun on the table and demand you give charity, then take half the charity to cover my expenses in the enterprise, this is not the same thing as you giving of your own free will; I really see no difference when the money is being extorted and redistributed through state rather than private coercion.

You can suspect my lineage all you want. Again, this is a cheap tactic to suppress dissent. "You don't agree with me, therefore your lineage is suspect." OK. As far as me looking like a fool, having moronic words, etc., you've never shied away from the ad hominem, but it doesn't really add weight to your argument. Conversely, I refrain from attacking your personality not because it is beyond reproach but because it is boring to do so.

[jancsipista]

Robert Wisler - The answer is in yiddish there is a saying, andereter nar,meaning a fool who is so stubbornly brain washed into thinking the universe revolves around him only.if someones mind is shut to reason you cant convince him otherwise,a mind is a terrible thing to waste as the saying goes

[Deremes]

Posted by: Robert Wisler | January 29, 2012 at 01:44 PM

This documentary is not really about the Holocaust in general it is about Jews who were there and what kept and held them to get through it.

Most if not all Holocaust documentary's feature mostly non-observant and assimilated Jews. So your concern about people who were killed in the Holocaust should be to to the folks who produced those films.

I must commend you for your concern and you have the real sign of a Jew. You are the real bnei rachamim Jew becuase i noticed many times you show your fed upness when people mention the Holocaust and all they say is how Jews were slaughtered. And you always say whats with the other millions who were not Jewish that got killed or what is with the Armenian genocide and with the Sudanese holocaust. But again your complain should be to the secular Jews who produced most of the films and to the Zionist establishment who makes use of the Holocaust every opportunity they have. And in the end as many have said to you here:
sieg heil

[Shmarya]

You are clearly an idiot.

Monsey, Spring Valley, and new Square also are high on the poverty scale. Are they also anomalies?

The Ethiopian quote says nothing about lavish – unless you're comparing it to destitute people IN Ethiopia making a wedding. By that standard, the poorest charity wedding in Israel or the US is "lavish."

Past that, halakha not only allows governments to collect taxes, it mandates that YOU PAY THEM.

Halakha expects society to support its poor and MANDATES in the strongest terms that it be done.

As for your lineage, I don't suspect it because I'm trying to suppress you. HALAKHA suspects it based on your words.

[No Light]

B is making me crack up. "Seculars are selfish and evil! Only haredim are living a real life! Having no kids is pointless!" followed by "HOW DARE YOU SAY I'M HAREDI! STOP MAKING ASSUMPTIONS!"

OK B(ell-end), you wanna talk assumptions, you shoteh?

You write off all child-free, non-religious people as empty, iPhone using, flash-car driving, jetsetters. That's a hell of a broad brush to paint with. I'm not religious, I have no children. I'm educated to MSc level, but after a brush with devastating illness in my early twenties I worked in the National Health Service, so I could give something back.

After a relapse, work was no longer possible, so I 'work' online now, giving health and relationship advice to young people, mostly young Americans who've suffered through abstinence-only education and are trying to understand how their bodies work. I provide details of free or low cost clinics, medication programs for people without health insurance, help for victims of domestic/parental/sexual abuse and rape.

I do it all for free, my reward is knowing that someone might be able to escape abuse, or can sleep at night knowing they'll be getting the medication they need soon. I have no iPhone, no car, and unfortunately only leave the house for the hospital these days. The house is a cheap rental, in an isolated rural area. But my life is pretty great. I can't walk or work, I have no shiny toys or winter tan, but I have food in my belly, a free national health service, and love and laughter in my life. I have the personal satisfaction of being able to help those worse off, and the sheer relief that I never had children. My life would be miserable indeed with children who I cannot possibly care for, provide for, or raise into productive and educated citizens.

I love my life. I love the purpose I have, the path I'm on, and the wonderful people I know. Religion gave me nothing but misery, a sense that I was being punished, and isolation.

So fuck your assumptions, and your twisted apologetics for a group of domestic terrorists bleeding their country (and those around the world supporting them through tzedaka) dry.

[jancsipista]

B-You write here like you know all the answers that ails humanity but in reality you give away youre ignorance, someone like you presents himself to know it all is exactly the opposite you dont know nothingyou sound like you have the solution to everything but you dont see how of an ignoramous you rare,youre childish outlook on life is a joke

[B]

And you are clearly someone who got beaten up in school for being an insufferable little nerd, held on to his resentment in adulthood and are now trying to make up for lost time by being an Internet bully. It's not working-inside, you are the same scared and rage-filled little nerd.

"Rich," used in the article to describe Ethiopian weddings, and "lavish" are synonyms. You are a ba'al tshuva; not being crippled by a yeshiva upbringing, you really have no excuse for such a poor grasp of English.

Please bring some statistics for abnormally low income by household (not per capita) for Monsey, Williamsburg, etc., etc.

Since you are now a halakhic authority, please show me where halakha explains that it is the government's duty (as opposed to that of the individual) to support the poor. When you are done, please demonstrate to me the halakhic link between these programs and mercy, the lack of which quality you are trying to impute to me, sight unseen. As for your alleged mercy, it seems to fit Rashi's explanation of the proverb "the kindness of the nations is sin," when he said that it means that their kindness involves robbing from some and giving to others.

[jancsipista]

B-Now you truly shows youre demented personality, if this is the way you answer me then you can go and shtup youre brilliant mind into the sewer

[Mike]

"The state's subsidizing of the ultra-Orthodox exacts a huge cost from us, an issue that has been widely discussed. It is a loss that grows with the ever-increasing Haredi population, and pushes Israel closer to the abyss..."

I wonder which abyss he (the author of this editorial---remember the original editorial, before all the comments here and folks trading insults)is speaking of? I live in Israel and the latest government economic statistics report a robust economy with the lowest unemployment rate in a long time. So it doesn't look as if we are at the edge of an economic abyss.

Could it be a security abyss? Is it really the Chareidim who have pushed Iran closer to developing nuclear weapons, and Hizbullah and Hamas to arming themselves with thousands of missiles?

I think what's scaring the beejeepies out of this author is the specter of a growing population of religious Jews, Period. Which is sad, because whether he knows it or not, he has more in common with a Mea Shearim Jew that he does with any (non-Jewish) European, American etc. that he most likely identifies with. If they could ever sit down together and talk, he'd see that he and that Mea Shearim Jew share a common history. They could both cry about the Holocaust together. And their shared history goes back a lot further that 60 years. He'd be surprised to see that they even share some common values and ideas. He might find the mystical and moral beauty of the Torah fascinating and enticing.

It is a real shame that a large segment of the Jewish population of Israel is being systematically vilified and labeled as parasites, sub-humans etc. If there is any abyss in Israel, this is it: a secular population which has lost any connection to it's spiritual roots, which has lost it's raison d'être for it's connection to the Land and which is now lashing out with fury at Jewish men women and children with whom they share, like it or not, a common destiny.

[B]

jancipista,

My response was not directed at you, as you could probably have figured out if you'd, you know, read it. However, it is funny that you can dish out insults but can't take them.

It seems to me that you've left behind the good parts of being a Satmar and kept the bad-inarticulate rage at those who think differently, for instance.

[jancsipista]

B- As i wrote to you before,it takes one to know one,you dont see the faults in youreself but in others you see it,this shows how deluded you are in youre tzimishte behaviour,dont tell me the baloney that you did not direct youre response to me, you did youre a liar ,i see youre here to play mind games but you stink at it, the mentioning who someone got beaten up in school is directed at whom dont play mind games with me

[Eli]

B, yes, I understand you think sustained economic prosperity is tied to population growth. I think you fail to appreciate the impact of living within a confined area and constrained by finite resources, or that economic growth today is tied to the productivity of a country's citizenry, not their sheer numbers. Economies now compete against each other. No one can expect to compete with undereducated masses.
Mike, you are wrong about the direction Israel is taking by encouraging a growing part of the population to opt out of education and work:
http://www.economist.com/node/21543152
"The fastest-growing population groups in Israel are those least plugged in to the high-tech economy: Israeli Arabs, who lag educationally, and haredim (ultra-orthodox Jews), whom the government pays to study the Torah. Two-thirds of working-age haredi men don’t work. They do procreate, however. In 1960 only 15% of Israeli schoolkids attended Arab or haredi schools. Now it’s about 50%, and if current trends continue it will be 78% by 2040, according to the Taub Centre, an Israeli think-tank."

[B]

Jancipista,

I don't even know why I'm answering you now, but I am. If you read my comment, you will see that I am answering Shmarya, who is talking about poverty levels in Monsey, the halakhic status of welfare and mercy, and so on. Since your comments are generally pure misspelled, punctuation-free emotion and devoid of any such content (of any content whatsoever, in fact,) it should be obvious that I am not talking to you. If you choose to identify with my comments re: being an adult bully to make up for schoolhouse beatings, that is your problem and speaks more about you than my original comment. Now, in the future you can assume that none of my comments are directed at you or have anything to do with you. Have a great life.

Eli,

The global economy is not a Malthusian, zero-sum game. It is a positive-sum game, assuming a productive citizenry. The productivity of a citizenry is primarily determined by its IQ; see Vanhanen and Lynn's work on national IQ and economics. An existing population with high IQ and low secular education can, by definition, be educated (since IQ is basically a proxy for problem solving and the ability to acquire new skills quickly) and become productive. A population that does not exist, since its would-be ancestors did not reproduce, can't be educated and can't produce anything. Tracking?

[Shmarya]

Posted by: B | January 29, 2012 at 02:33 PM

Please.

Look at US census data. A lot more difficult for Williamsburg and the othe rBrooklyn communities but doable for New Square and KJ and partially so for Monsey and Spring Valley.

"Rich" in the context it is used means "full," not lavish, and the comparison is being made to weddings in Ethiopia – where almost everyone involved was destitute. She's saying that in Israel, EJs have reached an economic level where their celebrations can look almost a nice as the average Israeli frum wedding.

That isn't happening by cheating welfare. It's happening for the reasons she goes on to make clear – young Ethiopian Jews starting their own small businesses, getting advanced degrees, and succeeding.

If you weren't the insufferable ignoramus that you clearly are, you'd know that halakha discusses the requirement to pay taxes to the non-Jewish government. It points out that as long as Jews are not singled out for mistreatment or forced to pay more than non-Jews, we are obligated to pay.

You might remember that when Rabbi Dovid Cohen thought he'd found a way around that and said so, it created a large stir among Orthodox and haredi rabbis who were quick to cite the halakha I just mentioned.

Past that, halakha presumes and mandates that every community provide for its poor to the extent that if a rich man becomes impoverished, we are supposed to provide him with the fine clothing and expensive food he had before he lost his money. Every poor person is supposed to be supported BY THE COMMUNITY at (or above) the level they were living at before they became poor.

Halakha also accepts and supports the transference of some or most of the origin this charity to a government. You can see some discussion of that in Shu"t literature, especially from the late 1930s onward. I think Rav Henkin deals with it and Rav Moshe also mentions it, at least in passing.

Halakha also mandates that we help the non-Jewish poor who live among us or near us, and if you look a bit you'll see mention of that in terms of paying taxes in countries like England, Holland, Scandinavian countries and America. You'll also see some discussion of it in terms of paying taxes in Israel.

And on top of that halakha recognizes the absolute need and the absolute right of non-Jewish countries to collect taxes to pay for roads, police, the army, government buildings – even the upkeep of a royal family and the many, many servants and aides they have.

People who spout off as you do, who show no real concern for the poor and much real concern for themselves, are not bnei rachamim.

I don't think combing over your lineage will reveal why you are what you are, though.

I think you are what you are because you're an asshole.

And if you ask around a bit, you'll find out that I managed to get through high school without getting beaten up and without beating anyone up. As they say in your world, hamyvin yavin.

[Shmarya]

I wonder which abyss he (the author of this editorial---remember the original editorial, before all the comments here and folks trading insults)is speaking of? I live in Israel and the latest government economic statistics report a robust economy with the lowest unemployment rate in a long time. So it doesn't look as if we are at the edge of an economic abyss.

Mike, there are studies that show that Israel is actually on the edge of economic abyss, in large part because of haredim.

[jancsipista]

B-no one is a bigger bullu then you are herer ok i understand looked over what you wrote,youre by far the biggest halerye here bully an all.

[who knows]

B, it does not matter whether you are a haredi with 15 kids or a secular with 0 kids. What matters is that you you are an apologist who'd pervert and/or ignore any facts to come up with a predetermined result if favor of haredim. Your writings are a waiste of space.

[B]

Shmarya,

If you read my comments, you'll notice that nowhere do I say that paying taxes is not necessary, or that the community should not take care of its own poor. You are building a strawman, which is not an unusual move for you. You are also making strawman assumptions about "my world" which couldn't be further from the truth. Again, typical. Maybe you didn't get beaten up in high school-elementary school? Middle school?

When you are done providing sources for your assertion about practically all Haredim with many children being reliant on government assistance (vague recommendations to "look at census data" are not sources,) you can find me some pre-1930s sources about the transference of the communal charity obligation to the national government. Something going back to Talmudic times or before would be nice. I mean, when it suits you, you are the first to pounce on latter-day innovation in Orthodoxy being anachronistically projected into the past, right?

I reciprocally think that you are an asshole; worse, you are the kind of asshole who thinks that by lobbying a government to take the money of others by force and spend it in a way he finds charitable, he is somehow being moral and righteous. Wrong. Still, it is somewhat mentally stimulating to argue with you; I assume that it is possible you are right somewhere, and I will learn something. I know better than to expect the same assumption of you.

[jancsipista]

B-A person has to be blind dumb and deaf to really not see whats going on in the hareidi world, you are playing a mind game and making a fool of youreself maybee you think you can afford to be a fool since you hold youreself to be smarter then most of us youre warped mind is a terrible thing to waste:)

[Shmarya]

When you are done providing sources for your assertion about practically all Haredim with many children being reliant on government assistance (vague recommendations to "look at census data" are not sources,) you can find me some pre-1930s sources about the transference of the communal charity obligation to the national government. Something going back to Talmudic times or before would be nice. I mean, when it suits you, you are the first to pounce on latter-day innovation in Orthodoxy being anachronistically projected into the past, right?

I reciprocally think that you are an asshole; worse, you are the kind of asshole who thinks that by lobbying a government to take the money of others by force and spend it in a way he finds charitable, he is somehow being moral and righteous. Wrong. Still, it is somewhat mentally stimulating to argue with you; I assume that it is possible you are right somewhere, and I will learn something. I know better than to expect the same assumption of you.

Posted by: B | January 29, 2012 at 03:46 PM

Your idiocy just continues to grow.

1. US Census Data is the gold standard for this data.

2. You might find a few pre-1930s sources with English poskim, because England has had a developed welfare system longer than any other country I'm aware of, and you need that to be in existence for the halakha to deal with it being in existence – a point you obviously could not grasp as you were foaming at the mouth over having to pay taxes.

You're a very sick man.

[B]

Obviously, I'm sick. Why else would anyone disagree with you? I mean, the alternative that you might be wrong is obviously ludicrous.

You made a sweeping assertion. When challenged to back it up with proof, you asked me to go dig in US Census data. Not how it works. YOU make a statement, the onus of backing it up is on YOU. Of course, by now you've realized that your assertion lacks a foundation, and you don't have the integrity to backtrack, so you'll keep blustering :)

As you should know, a thing doesn't need to exist or even have existed for halakha dealing with it to exist. For instance, the wicked city, the rebellious son, the spontaneously generated animals, etc., etc., etc. Again you make assertions, realize they are stupid and try to back them up with bluster, looking dumber by the comment.

Finally, I never foamed at the mouth about having to pay taxes. As usual, you are putting words in the mouths of your opponents, since you can't argue with what they actually said.

[jancsipista]

B- Go get help, youre superiority complex is out of control,you sound like you will have a burout burn youreself into oblivion.

[seymour]

Posted by: Eli | January 29, 2012 at 03:07 PM

your arguments will fall on deaf ears

simply God will provide

end of story

[TorahJew]

You commentors sound VERY ignorant. Chareidim don't suck off any money from any secular taxpayers. Every Chareidi pays the 16% VAT just like anybody else.

[jomadar]

TorahJew-Youre right they suck it off jewish taxpayers also :)

[adams]

only that alot of them are not taxpayers.
they are part of an underground economy. Perhaps there are statistics to show levels of taxes paid per capita.

Who pays for basic municipal and other services including security is the tax payer.

[Shmarya]

Posted by: B | January 29, 2012 at 05:02 PM

Please.

I cited a clear source that proves you wrong. All you have to do is look at it.

[B]

Shmarya,

I am not sure if you have any sort of secondary education. If you think that saying "look at US Census data" is "citing a clear source," I doubt you've gotten past high school. No-go, big guy, unsat. Just admit you've made a sweeping assertion which you can't support with specific evidence, and we'll let it go.

[Shmarya]

Posted by: B | January 29, 2012 at 09:00 PM

Please.

It took me less than two minutes to find complete data for a random zip code in Minnesota – all provided, down to the census tract level, by the US Census.

You're an idiot.

[B]

So, find some data to prove your assertion. Quit trying to shift the null hypothesis.

[Shmarya]

20% of all households in Rockland County, New York, get some form of government assistance like food stamps.

The sample includes all the non-haredi parts of Rockland, including the very wealthy parts.

That should mean the number for New Square is significantly higher.

But even if it is only 25% or 30% that still proves you wrong.

[Jeff]

The envy that I see comes not from the frei Jews longing to put on kapotes and sirtuks in August, but from their lack of a long-term future. Sadly, if current reproductive rates hold, in a few generations they will be gone from the face of the earth, through assimilation or just plain failing to reproduce.

Posted by: B | January 29, 2012 at 08:38 AM

You've been saying the same thing for 200 years. Meanwhile, we're still here, while Orthodoxy is at a watershed. The Haredi world is collapsing, and as Haredim now comprise the vast majority of Orthodox, when they go, that'll be it.

[Eli]

B, what you say is filled with non-sequitors: "The global economy is not a Malthusian, zero-sum game..."
But at bottom we have complete agreement, i.e., that the haredi are perfectly capable of being educated, and will need to be in the future: "an existing population with high IQ and low secular education can, by definition, be educated..." And that for the future of Israel, they will have to become educated, and take modern jobs, instead of guaranteeing the economy's decline and collapse.
Unfortunately, between being capable of being educated, and actually being educated, there lies a huge gap. If you look at the data in the Economist article (link I gave above), the societal costs of providing teachers and materials for a secular education to any meaningful percentage of the haredi today would be huge, long before any benefits would be felt in economy.
Once the haredi do start to acquire decent secular educations and take on modern jobs, there won't be much difference between them and the rest of us, and we'll all be material girls, living in the material world...

[B]

Shmarya,

Not a very rigorous proof. I'd like something to actually rigorously support your assertion about the average Haredi family with 9 or 15 kids being on the dole.

Jeff,

You are not much good at math, I can tell. How can you simultaneously complain about the growing proportion of Haredim (and a correspondingly shrinking secular population,) and say what you just said? As the Russian saying goes, either take off your cross or put on some underwear.

[B]

Eli,

The thing about Malthusianism and zero sum games is not a non-sequitur. It is basic. More people are a good thing, not a bad thing, as long as their average IQ is above a certain threshold. Before anything else, you need human capital. The Haredim are producing this human capital faster than anyone else in Jewish society.

As far as necessary investments are concerned-I doubt getting a reasonably smart guy up to speed on basic vocational skills (math, CAD, CNC, etc.) is that difficult or expensive. With the emerging education model (the Khan Academy and so forth,) this is a pretty trivial task.

[jomadar]

B-Are you getting paid by nk or the satmerers,youre out of youre mind.

[B]

I'm mostly funded by ZOG, a little bit by NEA. Ahmadinejad chips in every once in a while, but you know how stingy those bazaaris are.

[geoman]

I think the non haredi jewish population having more babies would be a good thing. I suspect that birth rates among non - haredi jews are higher among the more traditional more observant components of that population, but I know of no data to support that.

[מרדכי סטמר]

Yaakov: I just want you to know that I did see your posts directed in my direction. And I hope to make the time to comment on it,

I may agree with you on 75 percent...but the rest of the 25 percent that I disagree with you, I would realy love to go more into the details

[מרדכי סטמר]

I would like Mordechai as a friend but we could never discuss philosophy or religion. Unlike others here, I suspect he would be pleasant company over a glass of schnapps and with non-provoking conversation. Posted by: Yaakov | January 29, 2012 at 10:50 AM

APPRICIATED!!!

Next time you are in Brooklyn,let me know I might invite you for a Shabbos meal with my lovely (BIG) family...

[Yaakov]

Mordechai:

Thank you for the kind offer of a meal. I am sure I would love to meet your family. I take it as a sincere offer but, unfortunately, it is unlikely I could ever take you up on it. I am rarely in NY and now that my parents have left for upstate, being in the city would be especially rare.

A further complication is that my diet is odd. Not just kosher but vegetarian and gluten-free!

In any case, thanks, but I wouldn't expect any less of you.