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January 27, 2012

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Waiting4Moshiach

Hashem made us separate for a reason. Does not the Torah command us not to mix seeds together in the same land? And again with shatnes? So it is with people. And most people know this. Regular yidden feel most at ease with goyim who look like themselves on the outside: the german, the irish, the pole. We do not mix with the ones who follow their Martin Luther King, even when we live near the same subway stop. Haimishe Yidden can be found in Paris and even Berlin, but not in Ethiopia or Somalia or East New York. So what good comes from our mixing up our seed with their seed in the land of Yisroel, when Hashem clearly commands us not to mix seeds? Once again we see that when we deviate from Torah, we just create problems for ourselves and for others.

avraham

Rav Avigdor Miller says the Ethiopians are 100 per cent Goyim who adopted Jewish Customs. Rav Moshe says the same thing. Shmarya deleted the main parts of the letter on his site. At least let the Israeli Gov. admit their mistake and not bring over more.

Yaakov

You are both nitwits.

Malka Gittel

The mistake is in trating Ethiopian Jews as anything except other Jews.

It is time Ashkenazim dropped the freaking superiority card. We may have a high IQ collectively so why can't we use that intelligence to not go around bashing other Jews?

B

You know, Shmarya, every time some dude in a black hat in Minneapolis gets caught cheating on his taxes, you put up an outraged article. The Ethiopians have been killing their wives for who knows how long, in time-honored African tradition, have been living lavish on welfare, and all you can do is put up this "doctor"'s blathering (what a stereotypical kympin titto-see here http://fourthcheckraise.blogspot.com/2011/04/vivant-omnes-virgines.html.)

You do know that having pet minorities whose misbehavior you contextualize away while being contemptuous of your own kin is typical Western white elite behavior, right?

Waiting4Moshiach-have you ever considered that the racism of those frum Jews you satirize against the blacks vs. the white goyim might come from something other than skin color? Like, maybe, the fact that the latter have much higher violent crime rates than the former? For some reason, I presume you don't live in an area like Crown Heights, Detroit or Baltimore, where you can enjoy the proximity of your darling pets.

Malka Gittel

W4M has grabbed onto the "let's use examples of people forced into low income ghettoization as proof that all members of their group act like that" line.

It only rates a "thanks for playing."

Especially because he had to suddenly break character to argue we should feel comfortable with white goyim when he usually has to do the "stay away from the outsiders!" schtick.

Shmarya

Rav Avigdor Miller says the Ethiopians are 100 per cent Goyim who adopted Jewish Customs. Rav Moshe says the same thing. Shmarya deleted the main parts of the letter on his site. At least let the Israeli Gov. admit their mistake and not bring over more.

Posted by: avraham | January 27, 2012 at 01:41 PM

Please.

Avigdor Miller was a shoteh.

Rav Moshe did NOT rule Ethiopian Jews are "100% goyyim."

Nothing could be further from the truth.

I've had a teshuva of Rav Moshe and other related information posted here for years:

http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/rabbis-ethiopian-jews.html

And if you lie about this again, I'll ban you.

Bas Melech

Racism flourishes in the orthodox Jewish community. If there were no racism against Sephardim and Taymanim, I might think that prejudice against Ehiopians is an exception. However, Ashkenazim do not like and do discriminate against Jews of color.

W4M What was Tziporah's color? What was the punishment for those who made fun of her?

Bas Melech

Shmarya-
Avigdor Miller was a big racist. Many years ago I read his books. Somebody told me that I should listen to his tapes. His lectures contain a lot of anti-black rhetoric. When I realized his racism, I stopped listening. People I knew based their own anti-black feelings on Miller' "daas Torah".

Anchell

Waiting4Moshiach: I am so drawn to your irrationality. We al know racism is purely irrational as well as extremely superficial. Lenny kravitz just does not support your mixing of seeds theory. Now purely on that superficial level, you seem to exist on is it also not permissible to mix seeds for medicinal pprposes as well. Just where does this co-existence of two people reduced to their being as a mixing of seeds. be careful not to fulfill your life's purpose in the dark. Unless of course your life's purpose is to be fulfilled in the dark in which case i withdraw all light from you for fear of hindering your evolution.

Jake in Jerusalem

I'm new here at this site. Some of you seem to be unaware of what really goes on here in Israel.

The Law of Return allows Jews to move to Israel, along with their children and grandchildren, irrespective of whether they are Jewish or not. These days, 75-90% of Olim arriving from the xUSSR are not Jewish - Lechol HaDei'os, by every definition. No one even pretends they are Jewish. (I can show you pork butchers in the center of Jerusalem and elsewhere who cater to this population.) With the Ethiopians, it is different and many, many of them are entirely non-Jewish.

The statistic that came up in Israel is that something like 90% (I forget the precise number) of the murders of Ethiopian women by their husbands was among these entirely non-Jewish Olim. (Violent crime rates among non-Jewish Russian Olim makes up a similarly disproportionate portion of local crime stats.)

NB. The Ethiopian claim to Jewishness says that they were Jewish 200 years ago but converted to Christianity back then. So maybe they had Jewish ancestors somewhere in the past two centuries. By that standard, 95% of Europe and North America is Jewish, too. If you accept the Black Ethiopians as Jewish but not the White American and European Baptists, Protestants, Lutherans etc. as Jewish, would this be because you are discriminating on the basis of color?

Hila in New York

Did any of the groups you mentioned seek to be identified as Jews? Thought the original Christians were Jews, the ones of today today will vehemently deny the allegation that they are, so that's kind of a moot point.

Shmarya

…he Ethiopian claim to Jewishness says that they were Jewish 200 years ago but converted to Christianity back then. So maybe they had Jewish ancestors somewhere in the past two centuries. By that standard, 95% of Europe and North America is Jewish, too. If you accept the Black Ethiopians as Jewish but not the White American and European Baptists, Protestants, Lutherans etc. as Jewish, would this be because you are discriminating on the basis of color?
Posted by: Jake in Jerusalem | January 30, 2012 at 09:16 AM

No.

Falash Mura have to be from families listed on the Israeli-done census to come to Israel.

Those families are almost all 100% Jewish.

And all of them have to convert as a condition for aliyah, as well.

Past that, you claim about Europeans and North Americans is ridiculous and there is no evidence at all to back it up.

Jake in Jerusalem

Falash Mura have to be from families listed on the Israeli-done census to come to Israel.

Government census doesn't imply Halachic definition. Official listing in Israel as "Jewish" depends on which Party controls the Ministry of the Interior, as well as civil Court rulings, neither of which have any correlation with Halacha. What the State says has nothing to do with what Halacha says. The American Founding Fathers who established separation of Religion and State knew what they were doing.

Those families are almost all 100% Jewish.

Says you. Actually-authoritative people disagree.

And all of them have to convert as a condition for aliyah, as well.

1) There were huge political pressures on the part of anti-religious Labor Party activists to prevent conversions. See Addisu Massalla, Ethiopian Labor Member of Knesset.

2) Even when Olim do convert, these are largely phony conversions. This brings into question the efforts to import Olim who aren't Jewish and then give them pretend Yisra-Bloff conversions. This is as true of white Russian non-Jewish Olim as it is of black Ethiopian non-Jewish Olim.


Past that, you claim about Europeans and North Americans is ridiculous and there is no evidence at all to back it up.

Of course there is. The Jewish People are a small group not simply because of extermination but also because of forced conversion, repression and the assimilation that ensues. Vast numbers of Jews have simply disappeared and merged into surrounding societies. Societies that have long had Jews have many who identify as non-Jews today who nevertheless have Jewish ancestors somewhere in their bloodline. This is as true in Russia as it is in Saudia Arabia. (Some say that Qaddafi has Jewish ancestry, too.) If your Ethiopians should be considered Jewish because they had Jewish ancestors somewhere in the past 200 years, then the same should be said about most everyone in North America and in Europe, as well. Your preference for black skin over white skin, other factors being the same, is neither rational nor honest.

Shmarya

Please.

What absolute poppycock.

The Falash Mura convert and those conversions are real.

Do SOME Falsh Mura fake it?

Sure – just like some Russians faked it.

But most have sincere conversions.

If you weren't a racist idiot, you might have looked at the teshuvot of the Rabbinute on this – which is what the government's policy is based on – or the ones of Ovadia Yosef.

But that would involve being what you are not – honest and normal.

Past that, the idea that most North Americans have some Jewish ancestry is insane. Even most Europeans do not have any Jewish ancestry.

We have actual real genetic evidence for this, unlike the insane racist ravings you spew.

Yes, Jews do assimilate. That was true 2500 years ago and its true today.

But Jews were always a very tiny portion of world's population, and that assimilation would only work out the way you insanely think it does if it happened during a population bottleneck – exactly the situation when it is LEAST likely to happen.

At any rate, being and ignorant racist bigot isn't something to be proud of.

I suggest you try very hard to actually learn something rather than spewing your filth.

Jake in Jerusalem

The Falash Mura convert and those conversions are real.

Do SOME Falsh Mura fake it?

Sure – just like some Russians faked it.

But most have sincere conversions.

You got it back to front, perhaps deliberately.

SOME Ethiopians convert sincerely, just as some Russians, do.

MANY (in both camps) do not. And among those who do convert, they are phony conversions. Even Rav Druckman's standard accepts them as Jewish if he feels that they felt Jewish for just a single moment, even if they never abide by a single Mitzva and continue to practice other religions. There are phony Israeli Rabbanut conversions by the tens of thousands.


If you weren't a racist idiot, you might have looked at the teshuvot of the Rabbinute on this – which is what the government's policy is based on – or the ones of Ovadia Yosef.

I have great respect for HaRav Ovadia. However, there are two important points to consider on this.

1) He leads a political party (as "spiritual leader") and has political considerations.

2) He was misinformed and / or uninformed on the Ethiopians.

Consequently and with my own casual observations of the Ethiopians I see tattooed with crosses and those who look and act much more Brooklyn 'hood than Jewish-anything, it appears that HaRav Ovadia is in error in this case, as evidenced by the opposing opinions.

As for the Rabbanut, it is merely the rubber stamp that approves anything that the govt wants. That is what they are paid to do. The "official" Rabbanut (including the IDF Rabbanut) are NOT ALLOWED to defy govt policy. Halachic considerations are quite secondary to their own political ambitions and official functions - which is why Halachic authorities the world-over ignore the Rabbanut on most everything.


But that would involve being what you are not – honest and normal.

You don't know me. I am tempted to respond to your irrational insults but I will resist.


Past that, the idea that most North Americans have some Jewish ancestry is insane.

Actually it is even more credible than the much crazier "Ethiopians are Jewish" claim. How can you claim that these Africans who have no Torah, no Halacha, no Seforim, no Rabbonim, no Kiddushin and no Gittin are somehow, magically JEWISH??? They are as Jewish as your cousins in the Lutheran, Catholic, etc. churches!


I suggest you try very hard to actually learn something rather than spewing your filth.

Thanks for your suggestion, though I think that it is not I who have the problem.

Shmarya

Please.

You're an ignoramus.

Ovadia Yosef knows more about the Ethiopians than you ever will and he wasn't misinformed.

And the conversions they go through involve years of classes and tests. Their children go to Orthodox schools.

Past that, you don't even begin to understand conversion halakha.

And those crosses you dislike are what non-Jewish Ethiopian village women wear. Because the Falash Mura converted to Christianity a century ago, they also wear them. That does not change their genealogical pedigree, however, and any one of them who wants to return to Judaism can do.

Those who decided to that are the ones you see – they convert, as I noted, after years of study.

And your asinine remark that

"Africans who have no Torah, no Halacha, no Seforim, no Rabbonim, no Kiddushin and no Gittin are somehow, magically JEWISH??? They are as Jewish as your cousins in the Lutheran, Catholic, etc. churches!
was dealt many times over by Rabbis Moshe Feinstein, Ovadia Yosef, Shlomo Amar, Shlomo Goren, A.Y. Kook, Ezriel Hildisheimer, etc., etc.

But you're too much of a racist and a bigot to care about that.

Jake in Jerusalem

It's not worth bothering with you anymore, Shmarya. Your mind is made up and you don't care for the facts. You are obviously obsessed with a very few topics that you can't let go of. Your ignorance of what actually goes on in Israel is similar to the ignorance of many others, except that you are so adamantly proud of yours. It it was up to you, tens of millions of non-Jews would be imported into Israel and re-branded as "Jews". At least now I know a bit about who you are. Goodbye.

Shmarya

Yup.

You ignore the teshuvot, ignore the facts, and 'paskin' from the rare occurrence as if it is the normal occurrence.

And then you whine when confronted.

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