The Satmar Rebbe And The Holocaust, Continued

The Satmar Rebbe takes pre-Holocaust action against Zionism.

Rabbi Joel Teitelbaum in later years

I spoke with a Hungarian Holocaust survivor from the Satmar provence Saturday night. He told me about his time in various work and death camps, including Auschwitz-Birkenau, including a long period of time when he was imprisoned with the the Klausenberger Rebbe, who he said nice things about.

But when I asked him about the Stamer Rebbe, Joel Teitelbaum, he said, "He ran away from his flock."

He talked about how the Satmar Rebbe saved himself and abandoned his followers after spending years working against emigration to Palestine.

Then he told me that his Bnei Akiva Zionist youth group was shut down by the government before the time when the anti-Jewish laws were passed in Hungary, and the halutz who ran it was deported.

Those anti-Jewish laws, meant to mimic the Nuremberg Laws, were passed in 1938. The closing of Bnei Akiva would have taken place in 1936 or 1937.

The survivor's mother was friendly with a police officer, and she asked him why Bnei Akiva had been closed by the government when no other Jewish organization had been targeted. The police officer told her that the Satmar Rebbe, Joel Teitelbaum, had bribed the prefect (governor) to have the halutz deported and Bnei Akiva shut down. Teitelbaum was a very wealthy man at the time.

Teitelbaum – a vituperative anti-Zionist – was saved from the Holocaust by a Zionist-organized rescue that saved more than 1600 other Hungarian Jews from all walks and sectors of Hungary's Jewish community, many of them children who were orphans.

After the war, Teitelbaum blamed Zionists and secular Jews for the Holocaust and gave financial and moral support to the haredi anti-Zionist organization Neturei Karta.

He also refused to thank his Zionist rescuers.

Related Posts: The Satmar Rebbe and the Holocaust: 1, 2.

 

Comments

[sammy]

לדברי רוח אין קץ
It's regargled crap, just windbagging !
not an iota of truth

[Deremes]

Same old same old psychobabble there we go again.
Always matters to whom someone speaks.
I spoke to someone who knows someone who knew mother Theresa and said horrible things.
And if anyone spoke with YOU they will say how YOU told them how horrible charedi Jews are.So nothing new here.

The Bnei Akiva was fought against becuase they were Zionist obviously. And most gedolim held that the Zionist made more Jews to be not religious then the reform and maskilim movement combined.

The Satmar rebbe himself was NOT a wealthy man at all not then and not after the war.Its an outlandish lie to say that he was.Like any rebbe he had chasidim that had money and who gave him money so he can give tzadokeh.

He was saved via the Kastner train even though Kastner REFUSED to take him along becuase he was one of the leading voices against Zionism.
It was arranged by his admirers with huge amount of money so that he can get on that train. Especial by a man from Budapest Chaim Roth obm who worked with Kastner and met with Eichmann yms PERSONALLY about this.

[jancsipista]

sammy-Y ou wouldnt know what truth is if it hit in the face,you guys are farshlepte krengs,mentally unbalanced,hate is youre only friend

[R. Wisler]

You can judge Joel Teitlebaum by the behavior of his followers. When I was in yeshiva in the late 60's and throughout the '70's there were constant reports of Teitlebaums "chassidim" running down the Klausenberger rebbe, attacking Belz, attacking Lubavitch, etc etc, etc. All of this disgusting behavior occurred while that fucker was still alive and active. The bastard could have put an end to it, but in his evil hating heart, he revelled in it.

[Deremes]

Posted by: R. Wisler | January 30, 2012 at 12:48 PM

From your constant profanity against any godal it must be that your mother had a photo in her bedroom of Julius Streicher yms.

[seymour]

It's regargled crap, just windbagging !
not an iota of truth

Posted by: sammy | January 30, 2012 at 12:30 PM

please this in a well known fact.

there is even a book written by a herdie woman who tackles this very issue

she gives somewhat lame excuses

but at least she does not deny the facts like you.

betlz did the same but at least he asked for forgiveness for his error in judgment

not satmar he was to hateful or pissed that his created devil or evil people where the ones who saved his sorry ass

[jancsipista]

Deremes-Zionists made jews not religious, so it all boils down to money if someone is on youre side you can make money on him all this frumkeit and hassidism is making money now i see,money is the almighty for ultra frummies

[seymour]

Posted by: Deremes | January 30, 2012 at 12:57 PM

not all

he simply does not regard the satmar rebbie as a godol since he did not stop his chassedeim from attacking other yiddin

maybe you forgot but there are police reports of the fight satmar has and many time the police had to be called to protect Frum Jews from Satmar

Am I making all that up?

[מרדכי סטמר]

Why do I laugh?

Maybe its because - he may not be around for almost 4 decades- and those who hate our way of life, do think that HE'S at "fault" that our way of life is still around today.
And this makes me proud!
Maybe??

[jancsipista]

He the satmer rebbi is a godol all right, a godol among the fools

[Deremes]

Posted by: seymour | January 30, 2012 at 01:10 PM

A rebbe of his regard is not always informed of everything.
But he knew almost everything that went on.
His chasidim did stuff to others that shouldn't be done.And others did to the satmars bad things as well. But since they are anti Zionist it made it more in the news to badmouth them.
Here is a deal Seymour and the rest:
You bring me ONE statement from the Satmar rebbe ztl against ANY rebbe and i will bring you COUNTLESS episodes where his chassidim damaged other properties such as a shull that had the Israeli flag and how he reprimanded very harshly those who did it. Ask anyone who is about 60 years and will verify what i just wrote.

Deal?

[sammy]

when "jancsipista" the ill adjusted משומד talks like a real גוי that would be news! ubtil than just disregard this Imbecile.

[jancsipista]

sammy-Talking about imbeciles,as the saying goes, it takes one to know one,trying to dictate to others that they should diregard me you show youre true face trying to domninate like youre satmerer goilem friends

[מרדכי סטמר]

Jancs:

If you would be honest and if you were close to Satmar and knew the insides as you always claim,
You would jump on deremems's offer, instead you chose to answer a personal insult and ignore a great opportunity....

[jancsipista]

sammy-By the way i say yoelish in 1963 but since then alot of things happened i bet you never met him

[jancsipista]

meant to write saw him

[Joe Field]

Posted by: Deremes | January 30, 2012 at 12:42 PM

We read your views numerous times; we know exactly how you feel, about this subject. We know that your excuse is that nobody knew what the Nazis have in stored for the Jews. That argument does not hold any water; before the war, there were hundreds of thousands of Jews, who left Germany and Eastern Europe to escape prosecution. Moreover, if the Rebbe it truly a Tzadik as you proclaim him to be, how come he didn’t have the foresight to understand that staying in Eastern Europe will endanger him and his disciples.

[sammy]

jancsipista, now don't be to vulgar watch your language behave ok! you may have to ask for his מחילה one day! and gusess what you may not get it, not even in שאול התחתית

[jancsipista]

sammy-show me where i was vulgar are you farrikt or what talking without any proof

[jancsipista]

sammy-Just shows how naivet you are youre stamere tactics dont faze me work on me with youre childish threats of the rebbe not forgiving me it is very childish the way you wriote

[Joe Field]

Why do I laugh?
Maybe its because - he may not be around for almost 4 decades- and those who hate our way of life, do think that HE'S at "fault" that our way of life is still around today.
And this makes me proud!
Maybe??
Posted by: מרדכי סטמר | January 30, 2012 at 01:20 PM

You know what makes you proud, that you and your ilk that cling to some stone age cave dwellers myths. There are some far places were humans are still practicing cannibalism, that does not mean that they are right, that signifies that they like a big fat piece of human meat.

Finally, based on your argument I think that the Christens have the last laugh, after two thousand years, they are still here, and have a billion followers.

Hallelujah

[Deremes]

Posted by: Joe Field | January 30, 2012 at 01:50 PM

We discussed this many times.
Before there was any hint of trouble, almost all rabonim didn't let their chassidm leave not to the US becuase of the melting pot were hundreds of thousands or even millions of Jews became non-observant and assimilated and not to then Palestine. You might not agree with it because you are not religious.

As far as what you say that there were hundreds of thousands of Jews who left Germany and Eastern Europe to escape prosecution.I don't know if the numbers are true.
What i do know is that of the 6 million Jews who were killed the majority were non-observant and didn't listen to any rebbies so how come they didn't flee? becuase no one was smart enough and no one wanted to believe what is going to happen.

[Joe Field]

jancsipista, now don't be to vulgar watch your language behave ok! you may have to ask for his מחילה one day! and gusess what you may not get it, not even in שאול התחתית
Posted by: sammy | January 30, 2012 at 01:51 PM

Jancsiposta, will never get forgiveness from the Rebbe, he is dead kapish.

[Dovid]

Instead of just insults back and forth (boring), can we have a reasonable discussion?

There are sonme interesting issues here.

[Joe Field]

….almost all rabonim didn't let their chassidm leave not to the US becuase of the melting pot were hundreds of thousands or even millions of Jews became non-observant and assimilated and not to then Palestine.
……the majority were non-observant and didn't listen to any rebbies so how come they didn't flee? Posted by: Deremes | January 30, 2012 at 02:06 PM

Thank you for making my point, if he was a tzadik and had this special gift from Hashem, he would understand and know that first and foremost, he needs to rescue the Jews from the Nazis.

Moreover, the melting pot is not an issue at all, prove is in the pudding, today how many religious Jews live in the States, without any issue, he should have taken the imitative, and tell his chasidim to move to NY on mass.

Nevertheless, he did not because he did not understand what the Nazis have in plan, and did not have the foresight that in only a few years after the war, thousands, and thousands of Jews will come and be observant in this melting pot. He was wrong.

Additionally, to equate the knowledge and understanding of the millions none-religious Jews to the Rebbe, denigrate your Rebbe’s reputation. I will accept your argument if you agree that the Rebbe has the exact same abilities as the million of none religious Jews, who perish in the Holocaust.

[Yaakov]

I think if it is possible to see Rabbi Teitelbaum as a flowed person, we can understand that he made errors. He might have been driven to them by a sincere belief in the need to achieve certain goals for the sake of his followers.

"The ends justify the means" is common practice among the Rabbis, particularly if they are dealing with the kehila. He may well have believe these things, but, that sincerity is not an excuse for people who don't share his views, or who were sacrificed for the benefit of the many.

For those who cannot admit of error in the Rabbi's case, the very facts of the situation must be denied. Things couldn't have gone as described because he didn't make mistakes. It must have been different than it is portrayed because it can be seen as wrong. I have lived long enough to have first hand knowledge of misdeeds by "leaders" while their followers are given a sanitized version, and they believe it. This is the mythology that protects the goals (righteous in the minds of the perpetrators). Like Plato's "Myth of the Metals", it is told by those who know it is a lie, a lie for "good", and after a generation or two it is no longer a lie.

I don't know what the Satmarer Rebbe did or did not do, but it seems there is factual weight for his taking advantage of personal opportunity to flee. It seems that he showed no hakarat hatov, and maybe even worked against the very people who saved him. This he may well have done from a sincere piety; from a belief that he was doing what was best for his followers even if he had to throw someone else under the bus. This might be an accurate description but it is certainly no excuse. If this version is true, even if he was completely sincere, he was a scoundrel and did harm.

If the alternative version, with different facts, is true then things don't seem as bad, but, even given that his followers (not all!) seem prone to violence and zealotry. I don't know enough to understand just what happened, but I don't have any problem believing the less flattering version of events. I don't pass judgment on Rabbi Teitelbaum bother because I don't know and because it no longer matters, the man is dead. I am much more concerned with the legacy of Satmar and the current effects.

[מרדכי סטמר]

Finally, based on your argument I think that the Christens have the last laugh, after two thousand years, they are still here, and have a billion followers. Hallelujah Posted by: Joe Field | January 30, 2012 at 02:03 PM

I wasn't talking about the rightness of our way of life.
I simply took pride in the fact that you guys are pinning the "fault" on my Rabbi.
Which is a compliment in my eyes....

[Yaakov]

Erratum:

…flowed person… should read …flawed person…

[Yaakov]

Please excuse a bit of confusion in my last post. I am suffering from a bad cold, or maybe the flu. I suppose not writing quite so much in my current state is a good idea.

[SonofSatmarCountySurvivor]

My father is the witness of whom Shmarya writes. He's a very old man but still has all his wits about him.
He has no political agenda and leads a very private life. He has no ax to grind against Orthodox Rabbis and in fact spoke to Shmarya in glowing terms of several other Rebbes from that same region.

He is telling the truth. Whether or not some people here prefer to believe myths - these are the facts.

Shmarya can check my IP address from this post and confirm that I am the son of this witness.

[Yaakov]

SonofSatmarCountySurvivor:

Of course, every report has a point-of-view. I don't doubt your father's report, and it could be 100% honest given what he knows, but he may also not know things that would change the ultimate complexion of the events.

Even given this, I have heard many reports of this from people I would say were not predisposed to dislike the Rebbe. They seemed to be disappointed in a person they thought was great. So, I feel that the weight of the evidence available to me leans in the direction of your father's account.

[מרדכי סטמר]

Yaakov:
I wish you a speedy recovery and a refuah sheliemah.

It was not that he didn't think of the idea of moving to the USA.

He actually once fasted a taanis chulem תענית חלום on a shabbos!because he dreamed that he moved to the USA!
All his talmidim knew back then about it.

He was trying to help out with whatever he had to his capabilities.
He traveled around Europe raising money for the vaad of Budapest he tried what was then seen as the most DOABLE!
Having the nazis agree on letting the jews out of their grip with something to show in return.

Why in the world should it ever seem possible to get jews in the USA, when at the same time the USA was sending BACK jews who made it to American soil?

It was only 2 years after the jews were slaughtered that the USA and other countries opened the doors to the refugees

About him not wanting jews in Palestine? What are you talking about?!
He himself came to Palestine after a short stay in Switzerland!

[Bas Melech]

ancsipista, now don't be to vulgar watch your language behave ok! you may have to ask for his מחילה one day! and gusess what you may not get it, not even in שאול התחתית
Posted by: sammy | January 30, 2012 at 01:51 PM

Jancsiposta, will never get forgiveness from the Rebbe, he is dead kapish.

Posted by: Joe Field | January 30, 2012 at 02:08 PM

I think that the Rebbe has to ask jancspista forgiveness.

[SkepticalYid]

I think Yoilish is in a place so hot, he's baking a cake without an oven.

[Deremes]

Posted by: Yaakov | January 30, 2012 at 02:39 PM

It seems you have little knowledge of the Satmar rebbe.

First and foremost he was a goan in Hakarat Hatov. His biggest nemesis will attest to it.
And for sure he didn't throw anyone under a bus.

The ends justify the means was common practice among the Zionist establishment. They did anything they could in not helping Jews from the Holocaust all so they could get a state after the war.

[מרדכי סטמר]

Oh I forgot my main point!

When you guys will have for me the answer and explain me the logics of the main players of the holocaust , how come one of the most modern countries- Germany-(wasn't Rwanda or Sudan) in the world. had been lowered to the level of being mass murderers!
And secondly how come that in "all" capitals of the world it was-latest in 1942- a known secret, and they ALL turned a blind eye to our plight.???!

Then I will start explaining why Satmar Rabbi did what he thought is the best for klal yisroal.

[Yaakov]

Deremes:

All you did was assert the opposite of what I said seemed probable based on multiple accounts. Did you intend that to be an argument?

Perhaps you are right, but why just say the opposite as if that's proof? Can you bring accounts from third parties without a self-interest in the standard hagiography? That would be much more helpful if you wanted to convince me that my inclination to believe the negative reports was correct.

[Yaakov]

Mordechai:

That's a very weak rhetorical setup. There is no reason someone has to show you why antisemitism exists before you explain the apparent impropriety of Rabbi Teitelbaum.

Or, are you saying these are related things? That somehow if one can be explain antisemitism it will explain his actions? I don't think so, but maybe you so.

[Yaakov]

Errata:

For "…maybe you so." read, "…maybe you do."

Also, I forgot to thank you, Mordechai, for the refuah shlayma.

[who knows]

Mordehai Satmar, why anyone have to educate you on history of World War II for you to be able to explain horrible misdeeds of your diety Rabbi Joel Teitelbaum?

If you need a history lesson, just go to a nearby library. You don't learn history from blogs.

[Deremes]

Posted by: SonofSatmarCountySurvivor | January 30, 2012 at 03:03 PM

Your father can say whatever he wants but he didn't say anything NEW.We heard that kind of talk many times.
If your father is not anti-Zionist then in NO way you can say that he has no ax to grind against the Satmar Rebbe.

[sammy]

yak 2:39, "given that his followers (not all!) seem prone to violence and zealotry."

There is a town in NY State called KY, of about 25,000 residents 99% are followers of the SR, That town has the least violence per capita of the whole state of NY! With a little research 'before you made your damming statements' you would know it to! But as always your statements are factual lies lies lies, known lies. It seems that you're writing to your self and let your hate control you, and feeding your flat minded cohorts here on the site, and who knows where else and what other agenda driven false opinion seekers you serve, who like you dwell on wishful thinking, so have fun while you last but in the end you will choke on your own re gargled vomit!

[who knows]

About him not wanting jews in Palestine? What are you talking about?!
He himself came to Palestine after a short stay in Switzerland!

Posted by: מרדכי סטמר | January 30, 2012 at 03:13 PM

He prohibited his followers from going to Eretz Israel, then , when it was necessary to save his own skin he made different heshbon and allowed himself and his family to go to Eretz Israel, meanwhile, his obedient hassidim were burning the ovens of Aushwitz.

[Deremes]

Posted by: who knows | January 30, 2012 at 03:59 PM

Lies again but that's the normality here when it comes to Orthodox Jews and especial the lies and fantasies are big when it comes to Orthodox Jews who are also anti-Zionist anti Israel.

[Shmarya]

Please.

First of all, the haredi historian Esther Farbstein, who is an APOLOGIST for haredim, wrote in her book Hidden in Thunder pages 98-99 that Kasztner wanted to include leading members of all parts of Hungarian Jewish society, including anti-Zionist rabbis.

She also says that the passengers on Kasztner's rescue train were chosen by a committee made up of leaders from the entire spectrum of Hungarian Jews, just as I said previously.

She also notes that each group paid for its share of the train.

The money Satmar hasidim complain about paying was Satmar's share.

And like it or not, Farbstein – the apologist for haredim, a woman who (knowingly, I believe) denigrates Kasztner, proves that Dweremes and his fellow Satmar trolls are lying.

After the war, Joel Teitelbaum refused to thank Kasztner or any of the other Zionists who made that rescue train happen – even though it was Kasztner's choice to form that committee and his choice to include even anti-Zionists among the passengers.

[seymour]

deremes

did you hear of this book

Hidden in Thunder: Perspectives on Faith, Halachah and Leadership during the Holocaust by Esther Farbstein.

[SonofSatmarCountySurvivor]

Deremes- I wouldn't say he's anti-Zionist but he doesn't bear good will towards the State of Israel because of their horrible treatment of Survivors. As was stated, he is quite reverent towards the Klausenberger and other rabbis. The Klausenberger was also anti-Zionist. So to say that he has an ax to grind against one anti-Zionist rabbi but not against other anti-Zionist rabbis is pretty weak.

[Yaakov]

sammy:

First, Kiryas Yoel is generally a quiet place, that is, unless there is a battle over who will be the next Rebbe. Reports of violence, in Kiryas Yoel can be found here, here, and here, among others.

Those reports show you are simply using crime reporting statistics to "prove" something they don't record. The reports that I was actually talking about are not the internecine skirmishes but violence against rival chassidim, such as Lubavitch. Some percentage of Satmar chasidim are prone to violence, and that's a fact.

I don't "hate" anyone. I have no agenda here. If Satmar is a pious and holy group I am set to believe and embrace that. The evidence I have in front of me says otherwise. I can only imagine that you don't actually read what I write since it doesn't match your claims.

[Deremes]

Esther Farbstein i see is good source for you when it helps your agenda,fine.
My source are people who were PERSONALLY involved in the rescue of the Satmar rebbe.
Here are facts that YOU refuse to know which is ok:
Kastner could NOT raise funds from his people and needed help from the Orthodox community in Budapest to raise funds. They gave Kasnter a lot of money with a condition that the Satmar Rebbe must go on that train.
The whole idea that the Nazis could be bought for money was Rabbi Wiesmandel and he sent along a letter to the ORTHODOX community with one of the Nazis who went to Budapest that they should do "business" with him.Then came along Kastner and pushed them out so he can be the one who negotiates.
The Satmar rebbe thanked loads of people who did him favors no matter what their affiliation was.

[SkepticalYid]

Please, the Budapest community had no connection whatsoever to the Satmar Rebbe. Satmar was a backwards province beneath the notice of the Budapest Jews. You swallow any shtuss they teach in Satmar,

[Deremes]

Posted by: SonofSatmarCountySurvivor | January 30, 2012 at 04:12 PM

Lets just leave it at this that what you said is not true.I wont comment in details about your last statement.

[מרדכי סטמר]

Yaakov:

Of course they are related!
You should of known by now that I'm not in the nonsense business.....

I firmly believe and so do most rational people,
That the holocaust wasגזירה מן. השמים an act of G-D.
So in order his will should be carried out precisely how he had planned it, dupping Satmar Rabbi was his smallest task on hand.

When you have a tragedy with biblical proportions as the holocaust, and nothing else surrounding it makes any sense
Nothing else can explain it!
Even for those who are -theoretically- blind and deaf.

Don't ask me why or what G-D had out of his beloved chosen childrens sufferings.
Because I don't know the answer,

[jancsipista]

who knows-No matter what you say to theese anti zionists nothing in this world facts or otherwise can change their hypnotized state of mind they will never ever accept facts that dont agree with their world view,they are closed minded who cannot think rationally they are in short hypnotized by their own upbringing and it is very traumatic for them to find out that their whole life is a lie or its the opposite of what they were told

[Shmarya]

Posted by: Deremes | January 30, 2012 at 04:22 PM

You have a mental illness.

How Kasztner started negotiating with Eichmann is DOCUMENTED by German records and by Jewish accounts.

Your fairy tales are simply not true.

Every faction of the Jewish community paid money for a certain number of seats. That, too, is DOCUMENTED.

Kastner put a large group of orphans on the train than the group leaders didn't necessarily want, because he wanted as many children saved as possible. That too is DOCUMENTED.

You see, shoteh, there are facts in this world, and those facts don't support your foolish claims.

Worse yet, those facts expose your leader for what he really was.

[מרדכי סטמר]

Yaakov:

Of course they are related!
You should of known by now that I'm not in the nonsense business.....

I firmly believe and so do most rational people,
That the holocaust wasגזירה מן. השמים an act of G-D.
So in order his will should be carried out precisely how he had planned it, dupping Satmar Rabbi was his smallest task on hand.

When you have a tragedy with biblical proportions as the holocaust, and nothing else surrounding it makes any sense
Nothing else can explain it!
Even for those who are -theoretically- blind and deaf.

Don't ask me why or what G-D had out of his beloved chosen childrens sufferings.
Because I don't know the answer,

[seymour]

Don't ask me why or what G-D had out of his beloved chosen childrens sufferings.
Because I don't know the answer,

Posted by: מרדכי סטמר | January 30, 2012 at 04:31 PM

because if it exist he is a cruel hateful god

that really does not even start to explain how cruel it is

but just keep on saying

he is a loving god
he treats us like his children (should be arrested for child abuse)
is out protector ( should be fired a long time ago)

[norman]

i understand that some people would be hurt by criticism of the Satmarer Rebbe, but dont forget the satmarers to this all the time to many tzadikim.

[seymour]

Posted by: Deremes | January 30, 2012 at 04:22 PM

can you back up any or your statement

Esther Farbstein deals with facts and then tries to explain it or explain peoples actions from a religious point of view

at least she does not just make things up or deny certain unpleasant facts

[Deremes]

Posted by: SkepticalYid | January 30, 2012 at 04:28 PM

Because you don't know shit doesn't mean that no one knows.
Orthodox Jews and the kehila leaders of Budepast knew full well about the Satmar rebbe becuase he helped them raise money in the early stages of the war.
You swallow shtuss that you read on the blogs.

[jancsipista]

.מרדכי סטמר- Don't ask me why or what G-D had out of his beloved chosen childrens sufferings.
But you definitly know that it was gods plan and not the germans plan to kill 6 million jews

[SkepticalYId]

No, I read numerous sources and talk to eye witnesses. I also don't resort to obscenity simply because I have no other means of expression when I am wrong- like you.

[seymour]

Posted by: sammy | January 30, 2012 at 03:55 PM

statistics about crimes committed by frum people in the frum communities is not a reliable factor, since they will not report such crimes to the police.

up until a few years ago statistic said that there was no sexual abuse of children committed by frum people

we know how that turned out

but where we do have statistics we find out that kj has the hight rate of poverty than any other community in the USA.

yet many satmar argue we do not need goyish education to succeed we are doing fine.

That can only mean that KJ has the highest rate of fraud in the USA

[Yaakov]

Mordechai:

So, your argument as I understand it, is the the magnitude of the holocaust is so great that anything else which happened contemporaneously isn't worth exploring?

That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I think these two things are orthogonal. I suppose the difference between your perspective and mine is that I don't have a special love for Satmar and its rebbeim, so I tend to see things differently. This is not an accusation that you are making things up, just an observation.

I am certainly ready to get more, reliable information about this. What I do know, sifting it as best I can, doesn't make me feel positive about Satmar as a group, nor about the rebbeim. You and others, though, show that Satmar affiliation doesn't guarantee a person will act badly or be a zealot (in the less flattering sense).

[Deremes]

I know its hard to hear facts that you don't like.
Whatever i write is based on what Rabbi Wiesmandel wrote or from recordings of his speeches.Also from Chaim Roth who was one of the Orthodox activist in Budapest
And that is part of the Jewish accounts.
Now,you can start with a new agenda that they too lied or didn't know.So i have nothing to argue with you further.

Again,Kastner could not raise funds even for his own people and needed help from the orthodox community.

[Deremes]

Posted by: SkepticalYId | January 30, 2012 at 04:48 PM

Im sorry.
You read sources that what? "that the Budapest community had no connection whatsoever to the Satmar Rebbe. Satmar was a backwards province beneath the notice of the Budapest Jews."
Really? where did you read that?

[jancsipista]

Deremes-if ten people here say you are brainwashed then you are ,take it from me or maybee hynotized

[jancsipista]

Yaakov-My description of the satmers....nobodies yearning to be somebodies

[who knows]

Deremes, Budapest community was rich and mostly neolog or secular. Satmar was from a poor province and consisted mostly of poor and backward peasants. Why do you think the Satmarers would have money which much more affluent Budapest folks would not? It does not make sense.

[Deremes]

Who knows you really don't know history and don't know how to read.
Budapest also had an Orthodox community and they too had money.And it was the Orthodox community that gave Kastner lots of money.

[Yaakov]

jancsipista:

One of the most attractive aspects of Jewish orthodoxy is the element of being "chosen". Even the most benign interpretations of this single out the Jews for a "special mission" direct from the Creator of the universe. I think you are correct in detecting a desire to overcome the oppressed state and look forward to mastery of the whole planet. It's quite an alluring thing, particularly to the poor and downtrodden. How much more when you are the chosen of the chosen, with a Rebbe who knows God's will. A bona fide representative of the Arbishter right in front of you, and you able to bask in his glow.

But, of course, in America we are not downtrodden. In America a Jew is the same as anyone else. We can take any profession, run for elected office, practice our religion unfettered. We even have the respect of a large number of non-Jews for being Jews. What was sensible in antisemitic Europe, even if it was unethical, is not only unethical here but lacks sense! If some stealing from non-Jews could be justified as self-defense in Europe it is just criminal activity here. If taking anything the government would give made sense in Europe, here being a taxpayer and contributing to the welfare of fellow Americans is proper derech eretz.

So, yes, there may well be a strain of "being important through mythology here". The question is: how do we show them the error of it? I don't have a lot of ideas, but I do think that the people that perpetuate the suffering of the charedi masses—in spite of what appears to be consent on their part—are spiritual rodfim more dangerous to the Torah they claim to defend than anything else in modernity.

[Bas Melech]

From reading the comments, the only known for sure fact was that the Satmar rebbe (or had) paid for a seat on the train. My question:

If the rebbe was such a tzadik, why didn't he relinquish he seat for somebody who couldn't afford one, or better yet, a child?

[jancsipista]

Yaakov- Yyou are a person who sees reality as is youre description of them is perfecly described you are one of the few people who knows who they are.i was one of them but at the age of about 11 i realized what is going on whoever needs to beat a child into apulp is not only not religious but tottaly against god,it is very simple nobodies who want to be somebodies its that simple thats who they are

[Deremes]

Yup, Esther Farbstein in her book Hidden in Thunder pages 98-99 confirms what i wrote.
Beware that she writes very fondly about Orthodox Jews so those of you who cant swallow don't read it.

[jancsipista]

Yaakov- I wrote this just today i met and was near the satmer rebbi in 1963 in a yeshiva here in bp,i am telling you this i saw you wrote that they are zeoluts well i experienced it first hand before the rebbi came to yeshiva they were fixing it up for the rebbi i just wanted to take a peek since i went to that yeshiva it was in the basement some kids were instructed not to let anyone look into the place when they opened the door i tried to look in and i was met he was my age with such violent force for just wanting to look i got really scared i know who they are extreemly violent for no good reason

[Yaakov]

Deremes:

I read it. It's much too hagiographic to be good evidence. It's clearly written specifically to praise the Rebbes of Europe. Even the footnotes, which include additional accounts, can be given no more weight than the stories that Shmarya has been able to collect.

It's really not a credible source of defense, it reads like all the other hagiographic claptrap published by Artscroll and Feldheim. I know, from personal experience, that things in those stories are changed to make them fit the standard myths. It would be much better if it was something more neutral.

By the way, this doesn't mean it is not true in many details only that I, using my best judgement, have to discount the value of it as reliable testimony. I can't delineate fact from fiction in the account. I simply don't have enough information.

[ah-pee-chorus]

Don't ask me why or what G-D had out of his beloved chosen childrens sufferings.
Because I don't know the answer,

Posted by: מרדכי סטמר

try to imagine what a holocaust would have looked like if there were NO god, just so that we can compare. oh, wait....no need to imagine.

[Doresh el HaMeisim]

Moreover, the melting pot is not an issue at all, prove is in the pudding, today how many religious Jews live in the States, without any issue, he should have taken the imitative, and tell his chasidim to move to NY on mass.
Posted by: Joe Field | January 30, 2012 at 02:33 PM

I'm not going to argue all your hateful statements, but pray tell me how many Jews did the the USA allow entry?

And Deremes is right. G tore down an Israeli flag at the Clymer St. Shul, diagonally across from the Rebbe's house, and he was banned forever, ask anyone the age of three scores.
Problem was, he didn't leave children, and the new regime picked up his kano'os sans his piety.

[jancsipista]

Instead of uniting with the rest of the jews and israel the satmerers are knocking themselfs out trying to change it,wasting all that energy israel is here and whoever doesnt accept it and wants to change it is an enemy just like the arabs are,if they would only see how stupid they are theese hassidim they are the laughting stock of all the world

[Joe Field]

And Deremes is right. G tore down an Israeli flag at the Clymer St. Shul, diagonally across from the Rebbe's house, and he was banned forever, ask anyone the age of three scores.
Problem was, he didn't leave children, and the new regime picked up his kano'os sans his piety.
Posted by: Doresh el HaMeisim | January 30, 2012 at 06:43 PM

I am not sure what has the Israeli flag in the Clymer St. synagogue, to do with my points that if the Rebbe was closer to God and had the ability to see the future, than why did he not noticed that in the US, religious Jews would have the ability to live and practice their religion.
By the way I know of the flag story, and I know it is true, but it doesn’t change the fact that the Rebbe never thanked Kasztner publicly or privately.

[seymour]

By the way I know of the flag story, and I know it is true, but it doesn’t change the fact that the Rebbe never thanked Kasztner publicly or privately.

Posted by: Joe Field | January 30, 2012 at 07:25 PM

how could he thank the devil a Zionist

that would mean he thanked the very people who he claimed caused the holocaust

sort of like thanking the nazis themselves

[מרדכי סטמר]

For those who think that with a zionist state in the mix,it would've been a different outcome.
Here you have some food for thought.

Let's imagine an established zionist state some twenty years earlier than it actually was founded.

How much more easier would it be for the nazis to have all those millions of jews killed.

It took several years- and much bigger and stronger countries to fall- till the allied forces finally got the upper hand,

How much effort would nazi Germany have put in to reach the zionist state?
And how easy would it be to wipe it out?

Just think about it!

[mah toivee]

Lies again but that's the normality here when it comes to Orthodox Jews and especial the lies and fantasies are big when it comes to Orthodox Jews who are also anti-Zionist anti Israel.
Posted by: Deremes | January 30, 2012 at 04:02 PM
It really amuses me how when it comes to defending some gedolim such as the Lubavitcher Rebbe you are not exactly there but here you wake up and defend torah and g-d you don't strike me as someone credible at all

[jancsipista]

מרדכי סטמר-If israel existed 20 years before it did the natzis would of loved it the need to kill them would would not exists the only reason to kill the jews for the natzis was they wanted them to leave germany the killing happened because there was no place to escape so they had no alternative in their demented mind

[Jeff]

I firmly believe and so do most rational people,
That the holocaust wasגזירה מן. השמים an act of G-D.

Posted by: מרדכי סטמר | January 30, 2012 at 04:34 PM

Yeah, I guess that's what most rational people believe. [rolls eyes]

[מרדכי סטמר]

if the Rebbe was closer to God and had the ability to see the future,
----------
Are you for real?!!
Did anyone claim that he was god like or a prophet?
Or you just want to put in words in my (satmars) mouth in order to belittle me.

By the way I know of the flag story, and I know it is true,
----------
What else?

Posted by: Joe Field | January 30, 2012 at 07:25 PM

[Shmarya]

Yup, Esther Farbstein in her book Hidden in Thunder pages 98-99 confirms what i wrote.
Beware that she writes very fondly about Orthodox Jews so those of you who cant swallow don't read it.

Posted by: Deremes | January 30, 2012 at 06:00 PM
jancsipista

Please.

Farbstein only quotes Orthodox sources – as opposed to real historians, who cite all available sources.

Past that, what she wrote does NOT confirm what you wrote here.

As for her claims about what the Satmar Rebbe did before the Nazis invaded to save Jews, to say it is overblown is an understatement – and the documents exist to prove it.

You're a sick man, a person who has done nothing but leave troll comments here for years and who is wholly incapable of processing any fact that proves your lies wrong.

I told you several times previously that if you kept doing this, I'd ban you.

Now process – if you continue to lie, if you continue to troll, you get banned.

And this applies equally to anyone else trolling here.

[Shmarya]

Again,Kastner could not raise funds even for his own people and needed help from the orthodox community.

Posted by: Deremes | January 30, 2012 at 04:56 PM

Idiot.

Do you know how much the Nazis wanted to allow a Jew to board that train?

$1000 per head.

1684 (approx) Jews were on that train.

That's $1,684,000.

In today's money, that would be at least $21,522,572.50.

So in the middle of a war, after the Germans had already confiscated lots of Jewish property and goods, Kasztner needed to raise almost $22 million.

As I wrote above and as even Esther Farbstein confirms, every group in the Jewish community had to pay for seats.

The money you and your Satmar whores complain about was your share.

Process that.

[jancsipista]

How did my name come up am i also a troll shamrya?

[seymour]

Posted by: Shmarya | January 30, 2012 at 08:38 PM

I do not think he is a troll i think he truly believes what he says

he cannot and will not except any criticism of the satmar rebbie

to people like him the rebbie is everything and the rebbie can do not wrong. even to think he erred can shatter their believe in him

the rebbie is not a great man with flaws, he is beyond man

[zuken noief]

How did my name come up am i also a troll shamrya? Posted by: jancsipista | January 30, 2012 at 08:50 PM

Oh holy rabbi! What did you do to me?
Am I so bad that you think of me as a troll?!
I'm the one who gives so much color to this site, and what about my intelligent input I never try to withhold?

Oh please rabbi! Oh holy rabbi I will try my best to change for the better,
But please take it back!
Oi vey iz mir

[Fleishike Kishke]

jancsipista: You are much beloved. You're a teiere Yid.

[Abracadabra]

So, yes, there may well be a strain of "being important through mythology here". The question is: how do we show them the error of it? I don't have a lot of ideas, but I do think that the people that perpetuate the suffering of the charedi masses—in spite of what appears to be consent on their part—are spiritual rodfim more dangerous to the Torah they claim to defend than anything else in modernity.

Yaakov - I couldn't agree with you more. But know that the people who perpetuate the suffering of the charedi masses are the leaders. And the leaders have been bought off. Torah was sold to the highest bidder. It became Torah Incorporated. And the corporate boards are self-appointed, cronnie-appointed, or bought and sold. Welcome to organized religion. And you thought we could do it better than Christianity or Islam?

[Abracadabra]

SonofSatmarCountySurvivor -

I value your father's testimony. Please thank him for me and for those of us who find it very interesting to hear from those who lived through those times, what they saw and experienced.

I would tell you that if your father is up to it, to make a little video recording of him speaking about his experiences, his background, what he has to say about other Rebbes, and what he saw happened with the Satmar Rebbe. His testimony is important, and it is part of the historical record.

You can make a video recording with a regular digital camera, they come with video nowadays. All you need is a mini-tripod to set it on a table to keep it steady so he can talk to you. And you need a large memory card (which you can buy on sale) to record the video onto. You can ask your father questions on the video, or just allow him to talk and say what he wants to share. It is a valuable thing.

Also, I believe there are organizations which collect testimonies from survivors. It would be good for them to have testimonies from religious survivors as well, as many survivors who gave testimonies are irreligious. Do a search on Google to find organizations which will keep your father's testimonies about his experiences both before, during and after the Holocaust.

Your father should be healthy and well bis a hundred un tzvontzik yur.

[Abracadabra]

jancsipista - Shmarya was not talking about you.

Here is the Wikipedia definition of an Internet Troll:

In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

[anonymous]

This has been a really futile conversation. The satmar rebbe wasn't a great guy. Cool. Tell me something I don't know. Please stop this stupid argument shmarya. It has gone nowhere and deemes will not be convinced. As for god and the holocaust, I suggest you all read some post holocaust philosophy, starting with levinas.

[SonofSatmarCountySurvivor]

My father states that other Rebbeim in the area asked R' Yoilish to leave the B'nai Akiva groups alone. They pointed out that not every child was going to be Hassidish. Many would end up totally non-religious if there was no such influence in their lives. Unfortunately he didn't seem capable of looking beyond his zealotry in order to make this accommodation.

[Yaakov]

Abracadabra:

Yes, that was the idea. Those who use people who are both innocently and willfully ignorant of being used. The ones in power, "gedolim", the coteries that exist around the gedolim when they are no longer competent, the sellers or "chumrah supplies"—all of them, al who profit in money and power on the backs of the community.

[yechi ben levitas]

shmarya, what is trolling, thank you in advance,?

[jancsipista]

zuken noief-kish mir in tohes

[yudel]

Sadly none of this is true. I have spoken for years to the tochter emes of Reb Yoel and Faiga. He did not know like so many what the Nazi's were up to doing. When he heard he was horrified at himself for not acting sooner to save Jews. He managed to get out as many kids as he could. As far as the transport went the real deal is if he did not go the transport would not go. He was not about to sacrifice all those lives so they left. What people do not understand is the wholesale rewrite of history in regard to Satmar. So many documents went out that he never wrote or signed. At the end of his life he wished to divide Satmar into three different Rebbes stating 'no rebbe can take care of this many people.' His wife Faiga traveled back and forth to Israel many times and attended college classes. His home was open to all. He regreted when he came to Israel that he wrote that one ugly missive. He was sick and angry and told me he made a terrible mistake that he could not take back. He also warned that Satmar would collapse if Sighet took over. It would lie in ruins because of the money Sighet was after. And so that as we know was the end of it. It is interesting to note the parallels to Lubavitch and what happened at the end to their Rebbe. Reb Yoel spoke regularly on the phone to the Lubavitcher Rebbe. Everything was wrested out of their control. People simply did what they wanted as no one could mind the store with so many victims of the Holocaust broken. But none of this will change as history here has been revised and no one has the guts to change it. The lies btw about Faiga are incredible to this day in Williamsburg.