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January 04, 2012

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Yosef

Shmarya,
If you follow the link in that article to the original full quote, you will see that the Rabbi is complaining that there have been secularists that have been making overtures to the Haredim, professing to have the best interests of the Haredim at heart. The Rabbi is saying that the recent provocations against the Haredim belie these earlier overtures, and show the true colors of these people. He says that Haredim had responded to the overtures, and they came closer to the secularists. They must now distance themselves, because the motives of these people have been shown to be hostile to Torah values. End quote. Funny how your posting doesn't quite give over the context, no?

Yaakov

Shlomo:

You have given all the reasons why we shouldn't relax. You are making the argument in favor of outrage of his statement. He should not be making condemnations of other people in his state of abject ignorance and infirmity.

Betzalel

Shlomo is right.

Shlomo

Relax, folks.

I guarantee you that Rav Shteinman has no idea what happened in Beit Shemesh and that if he were to have seen the video, he would have spoken very differently here. He is a man of peace and MUCH more moderate and pragmatic than the people who claim to follow him. He is the main supporter of Nachal Charedi and has suffered a lo t of grief over it, but has not backed down.

This is a man who lives in total simplicity, totally removed from all media. And he is over 90. This makes him vulnerable to believing what all kinds of morons try to convince him of.

Betzalel

jancsipista,

Relax, I was making a joke. The real reason is that DNA has been misused to prove that man is descended from apes. If scientists could do this, then what's stopping scientists from lying about my DNA?

Friar Yid,

I wasn't talking about saying that the chillonim were the Erev Rav. I was talking about the fact that he didn't address what was happening in Beit Shemesh.

The fact that the chilonim who are against the Haredim are the Erev Rav has been known by the Haredi community for years.

jancsipista

Betzalel-but you can waste bitol toireh here on the internet i see you here so much why dont you say you dont want to waste89 dollars and be truthfull dont drei my kop with youre bitol toireh , there is no bitol toireh it takes seconds in youre house to take the test send it back in an envelope just shows how much you know about taking a dna test.

Friar Yid

Rabbi Shteinman is human. Stop judging him according to ridiculous standards.

What's ridiculous about asking him to use his brain before making political statements?

If someone wanted him to determine if a chicken was kosher, presumably he'd ask to see the chicken before making a ruling. Why should passing judgment on millions of fellow Jews require less thought or examination than checking someone's dinner?

Yochanan Lavie

I thought an Erev Rav was a rabbi who inspected the eruv (/humor).

Betzalel

jancsipista,

I'm not wasting $89 on bittul Torah.

jancsipista

Betzalel- got red heads also cousins brother but my haplogroup does not match that of a kazar maybee you should take a dna test its fascinating and it doesnt cost much i think its about 89 dollars.

Betzalel

seymour,

When they get to shamayim, do you really think Hashem will accept, "I was only following orders"?

Yaakov

Betzalel:

Charedim do what their gedolim say to do, at least in public.

seymour

Yaakov,

The purpose of a rabbi is not to run people's lives. They are there to educate and inspire.

Everyone is responsible for their own life.

Posted by: Betzalel | January 04, 2012 at 12:26 PM

however, not many people follow that anymore

they all do without thinking Dass Toarh

you can see that attitude on vin all the time

ask das Torah one cannot argue or question dass Torah

Betzalel

who knows,

The Khazars and David HaMelech were definitely related, since both had red hair and both were descendents of Gentiles.

ah-pee-chorus

shteinman looks like randy quaid from kingpin. i bet they use the same barber.

http://www.imdb.com/media/rm1573035520/tt0116778

who knows

Many peoples had red heads in their population. David ha Melech was a red head and he did not descend from Khazars.

Betzalel

jancsipista,

I've never taken a DNA test, but I've read that the Khazars were red-heads and that side of my family (my grandfather's father and many of his descendents) have red hair.

jancsipista

Betzale- you can take a dna test it will definitly tell you youre haplogroup which i did i am not decendant from kazars but i did pinpoint that we came from the middle east

Betzalel

I'm a descendent of the Khazars, according to my grandfather, who was from the Ukraine. I can trace my family back 10+ generations. We have the "red hair gene".

Sam

Rabbi Chaim Zimmerman once opined that the satmars are descended of wild Khazar tribes who converted to Judaism.

Not Simple

Can someone explain to me what was meant by violence against Hareidi children?

Posted by: Bartley Kulp | January 04, 2012 at 11:26 AM

I believe in one of the episodes a 10 year old girl was kicked in the back as she was exiting a bus causing her to stumble. See http://www.israelhayom.com/site/newsletter_article.php?id=2488

Betzalel

Yaakov,

The purpose of a rabbi is not to run people's lives. They are there to educate and inspire.

Everyone is responsible for their own life.

joe lenchnet

Erav Rav, humbug

These Haredim are the spawn of the union between Satan and Lilith. They are not Jews,they are the bnai satan.

The Eternal is testing the real Jews again,just as has been done so many times through the ages.These creatures should be herded into an area alltheir own and not permited to mix with legitimate Jews.

Joe Lenchnet

ah-pee-chorus

jancsipista - thanks, and youre spot on too.


Yaakov-

"immune to reason" - no doubt.
betzalels comment at | January 04, 2012 at 11:48 AM is another example. he completely avoids the point i made and responds by excusing shteinman as being "human".

Yaakov

Betzalel:

His "greatness in Torah" seems to be insufficient to qualify him to run people's lives. Perhaps he should stay in the beis midrash and leave the world alone.

Betzalel

ah-pee-chorus,

Rabbi Shteinman is human. Stop judging him according to ridiculous standards. His greatness is in Torah, not politics.

who knows

I doubt Rabbi Shteinman knows about what is going on in Beit Shemesh. He doesn't watch TV or read mainstream newspapers.

Posted by: Betzalel | January 04, 2012 at 11:07 AM

Betzalel you use traditional ignorance defence. Some claim that Stalin and Mao were not guilty in the tens of millions that were killed, but simply did not know what was going on and trusted their evil helpers who puposfully mislead them.

who knows

It's just a matter of time before some "gadol" says the same thing about Religious Zionists and Modern Orthodox.

Posted by: Yochanan Lavie | January 04, 2012 at 09:56 AM


They already have. One of the Haredi gadolim (I forgot which one) have stated recently the Dati Leumi are new reform and should be fought with full force.

Yaakov

Bartley Kulp:

There have been two, unsubstantiated accusations concerning secular "attacks" on ultra-orthodox children. You can read Shmarya's post on it, here.

Yaakov

ah-pee-chorus:

I have to admit that commenter like Betzalel have already warn me down. There is nothing there. It's vapid self-contained orthodox apology. When I add in my knowledge of the supremacist, misogynist core of their belief, I just get very sad.

They are immune to reason because they've been immunized by doctrine. They have an "answer" to everything because they believe that the claptrap they've learned is self-evidently true. It's literally useless to argue with them, they cannot understand what you say.

jancsipista

ah-pee-chorus-haha youre good studying old books whose words and concepts i can never use or apply it to anything- thats exactly how it is just ruminating on the same things and never getting anywhere just duping the masses into beleiving that they are creating something out of nothing how true.

Bartley Kulp

Can someone explain to me what was meant by violence against Hareidi children?

ah-pee-chorus

He's not a political leader; he's a Torah scholar.

Posted by: Betzalel |

he seems to be nothing more than an ignorant hater. being a leader in the charedi community involves making rulings which AFFECT PEOPLES LIVES. how can you make an excuse that he is clueless as to what goes on in the world? the torah and halacha REQUIRES knowledge of the real world in its application. and if he's as ignorant as you say, why doesnt he say that? his response to any question other than what daf a certain sugya is on should be,

" i am completely clueless as to the world beyond my apartment and yeshiva walls. as such i am completely unqualified to make any halachic rulings or public statements.
so please leave me alone so i can continue studying old books whose words and concepts i can never put to use or apply to anything that matters"

Betzalel

I doubt Rabbi Shteinman knows about what is going on in Beit Shemesh. He doesn't watch TV or read mainstream newspapers.

He's not a political leader; he's a Torah scholar.

Nigritude Ultramarine

Btw where I grew up and when I lived in Israel the term Eiruv Rav always meant rabble rousers, nothing else.

Israeli Hebrew is not my thing and I have never been to Israel. I showed a friend the quote this morning. He translated ערב-רב as "Hellenizers" viz. activists with an agenda to push on people.

jball

I don't take to kindly to a 100 year old man living in a 200 year old European world existence interpreting for me a 4000 year old middle eastern religion.....goddangit (spit tobacco here)

jball

@mikal
So is r" steinman is a figure head or just a puppet? It's his responsibility that his information is credible not anyone else.
If what you are saying is true then we must dismiss what any gogal says on any issue. FINE BY ME!

Not Simple

The backlash begins! I always thought that lambasting an entire group as opposed to the individuals or zeroing in on the groups responsible for the actions was dangerous, especially with a group that has a powerful infrastructure, will spiral out of control.

Bas Melech

With all due respect to Rabbi Steinman, he is unaware of present day realities.

Many nonobservant Jews have not had a religious relative for 100 years or more. That does not make them erev rav.

When moshiach comes, he will tell us who is Jewish and what tribe they come from, his first responsibility. Just how many observant Jews, charedim included, will learn that they are not Jewish?

As I've said before, Jews and goyim are known by their midos. Attacking women and children is not a Jewish middah.

ah-pee-chorus

the eirev rav was a BS excuse from torah apologists to try to justify how the people of israel could have made an idol right after supposedly seeing hashem at har sinai. the torah doesnt say anything other than "ha'am" , which always refers to the entire people. faced with the obvious conclusion that even if the story were true it would shed great doubt on whether they had actually seen or heard from god directly, the spinmeisters got to work and ascribed the responsibilty for the idolatrous actions to an unmentioned few.

Bas Melech

Don't some of our earlier sages say that the erev-rav looks like other observant Jews? I think that it was Elchanon Wasserman in Epic of the Moshiac quoting others.

Can anybody clarify? and tell me where this opinion is from?

Mikal

My Hebrew may be a tad rusty but here is how i understand the article in its full context: R' Shteineman was asked what there is to do about the increasing negative image of the Charedi public and he replied that "previously it seemed that the Chilonim had good intentions to help the Charedi community but it has become increasingly evident that the they hate the Charedi community an are intent on rabble rousing so we must distance ourselves from them". at least I think that is the crux of it.

What I deduce from this article and more so from letter that is circling in his name (see that letter) is that; R' Shteinman has not been accurately notified of the situation but rather was told that the Chilonim are trying to portray the Charedim as sexist and are pressuring the Charedi community to change their way.

I suggest the M.O. community go meet with R' Shteinman and others to make sure they get the picture accurately. The best bet may be R' Chaim Kanievsky since his gabaim have less control over him.

Btw where I grew up and when I lived in Israel the term Eiruv Rav always meant rabble rousers, nothing else.

ah-pee-chorus

another shining example of why it IS ok to hate charedism. it is an ideology so steeped in hate and charedi male supremacy that its top leaders have no problem confirming it openly and regularly. it is NOT stereotyping to assume charedim feel this way. it is not only preached daily in all of their schools, but is acted upon daily as well. this divisive and cancerous ideology must be eradicated. there are NO reasons to preserve any part of it.

Yochanan Lavie

It's just a matter of time before some "gadol" says the same thing about Religious Zionists and Modern Orthodox.

ah-pee-chorus

: Dr. Dave -

good vort..

Dr. Dave

The pig is singled out as being egregiously unkosher because it has one - the outward - sign of being kosher - split hooves, but is lacks the inner signs of being kosher - chewing the cud.

The rabbis have said the pig rolls around waving its hooves in the air as if to say: "Look at my outward appearance, I'm Kosher", whereas in reality it lacks the inner essence of Kosher.

Well, just goes to show that hooves (or black hats, long coats, thick stockings etc.) don't make one Kosher. Without the innate love of your fellow man, you are just a PIG!

reb chaim

Senility among the haredi rabbis must be catching.

who knows

The Haredim are the holy remnant. All the other so called Jews are erev rav (foregners who joined the Jews for their own profit only).

Rav Shteinman, do you have any decency?

Hp

The strong dislike / hatred among the charedim for non charedim is disturbing but well documented.

Many in the non charedi world are naive about the levels of dislike / hatred.

Dan

Trying again. Test.

Dan

So much for kiruv, I guess. Just hunker down and ignore 90% of all Jews.

Let's see if this closes the tag. Test.

Jewish Cynic

Seymour wrote:
"if he truly believes this nonsense how could he and his like demand money from the ערב-רב to support their life style

and if that is the way he thinks why should the secular give him and his like a dime"

Yup, I second that thought Seymour!

Shoshi

This morning, my husband read this quote to me:

"Now that we see the violence, the baseless hate, the harrasment [against haredim], we know and we understand that their ways are not like our ways, and that we certainly must distance ourselves from them, for their inside is not like their outside (i.e. their internal state is not like they try to appear). They are a mixed multitude who hate the Jews."

And I thought he was reading me a comment on this blog from someone referring to the Charedi protesters!!

Alter Kocker

This old fart has now said it. They are not part of Israel. They do not consider the secular Jews as Jews at all.

SO WHY ARE THEY FINANCIALLY SUPPORTED. WHY DO THEY GET THE BYE WHEN IT COMES TO SERVING IN THE ARMY.

seymour

in a way he is declaring open warfare and saying what the Palestinians say

Israel is not a Jewish state not much different then the NK

seymour

if he truly believes this nonsense how could he and his like demand money from the ערב-רב to support their life style

and if that is the way he thinks why should the secular give him and his like a dime

jancsipista

they should clean up their own houses before critisizing others with their molestations and fraudsters they bring more hillel hashem on jews then any other group.

taylor

nice dreadlock beard

Yaakov

You know, if you just read his statement as if he was talking about the charedi zealots, it would have been an excellent one and gone a very long way to moving things in the right direction.

who knows

Rav Shteinman proves what we've always suspected - Haredi violence is inspired and supported by Haredi leadership. Sicarii is not a problem, they are just an extention of the well established ideology. They are simple storm troopers of the Haredi leadership and this is why we have not seen and will never see their condemnation.

BeenThereDoneThat

Strangely, the hairydim, who consider themselves as the real jews, do not dress like real Jews. They dress like europeans from the last two centuries.

What else have they changed? And are they really Jewish? Maybe they are the descendants of the Khazars, and not of the Israelites?

Methinks that this rabbi thinks that if the lie is big enough, then people will believe it.

Adam Neira

To Yaakov,

Yes you raise a good point. Hatred that has no reason is baseless. We must hate evil and try and defeat it wherever it rears its ugly head, but this does not mean that we hate the person whose satanic side (the adversary/false self) has overshadowed their true self. We are justified in hating the thinking that leads to their poor actions.

Yaakov

.

Yaakov

Oops! open tag...

OK, I will add something. Whether accomplished by rock throwing or legislation, religious coercion is unacceptable. If a person understands their religion to be exclusive, that religion must change or end.

Yaakov

rabbichaplin:

I am having trouble parsing this. Are you condemning only the violence, or both the violence and the goals?

rabbichaplain

I guess we can make this simple. In the end, the methods might not be appropriate, but... To me, this is the epitome of why crazy zealot types think they can act the way they do.

Yaakov

He accuses the chilonim of "sinat chinam". I am sure some percentage of them would aver that they "hate" the charedim—most would, I suspect, say they oppose them, but, in either case, the idea that the attitude is "baseless" is pure nonsense.

If there is hatred it is brought on by behavior, an excellent basis. He uses the religiously loaded language of "eruv rav", which, you may not know, means he is suggesting that the chilonim are from Egyptian descent, literally not Jews. Given his audience, it is probably stronger than suggestion.

This is, so far as I am concerned, vindication of my position that each self-identified charedi Jew needs to condemn the goals of the charedim before I will accept that they are interesting in coexistence. Passive non-violence, forced condemnation of the violence of others? These are woefully insufficient. They do not get to the heart of the matter.

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