Pay To Beg: Chabad's Main Synagogue Charges Beggars Admission Fee

Down-on-their luck panhandlers at the Chabad-Lubavitch world headquarters in Crown Heights have to follow the 11th Commandment: Fork over $5 for the right to beg inside.

Charity collector in front Chabad's main synagogue, 770 Eastern Parkway, Brooklyn, New York

Temple’s $5 cut
Beggars must pay seat license
By GARY BUISO • New York Post

It’s pay to pray at one Brooklyn synagogue.

Down-on-their luck panhandlers at the Chabad-Lubavitch world headquarters in Crown Heights have to follow the 11th Commandment: Fork over $5 for the right to beg inside.

“If you want to collect, you have to pay. If you don’t pay, you go on the street. It’s very simple,” said one outraged panhandler. “Poor people collecting money have to pay? It’s like extortion.”

The beggars either position themselves by the stairwell, in the lobby, or inside the prayer area of the monolithic, four-story brick temple, which stands alongside the original Lubavitch synagogue.

All said they are unemployed, live nearby, and sometimes attend services at the bustling temple, where hundreds come to pray from morning until night every day.

They say their right to panhandle in the house of worship comes from a higher authority — Jewish law, which allows begging in synagogues and public events, including weddings, where food is set aside for beggars and uninvited guests.

But instead of a helping hand, Rabbi Avrohom Holtzberg, a synagogue administrator known as a gabbai, looks for a handout, the panhandlers said.

“It’s like graft, payola,” charged a second beggar. “It’s embarrassing that you have to beg, and the fact they won’t help you is embarrassing — you’d think your rabbi would help you.”

“I can’t afford it — I only make about $40 a day,” the man added, saying he refuses to pay up, and instead stations himself outside the Eastern Parkway synagogue.

If they don’t comply inside, they’re shown the door and warned that if they don’t leave, the police will remove them, beggars said.

The policy has left the beggars with a sour taste in their mouths — and less cash in their frayed pockets.

“They feel like we use this place a lot, so they want a percentage,” said Steven, a third beggar, who would only give his first name.

Synagogue administrators did not respond to a Post inquiry, but some congregants denied that such a policy exists.

“It’s a lie from top to bottom!” said worshipper Mendel Drizin. “These rabbis are not poor people — they don’t need the $5 for people to beg inside.”

Beggars told the blog Failed Messiah that they were being slapped with a $5 fee because the congregation is “losing too much money” to the panhandlers. The policy has been in place for at least a year and a half, but only recently began to be enforced, beggars said.

“There are some of these guys who are legitimate, but a lot of them are disrupting the congregants,” a worshipper who wished to remain anonymous told The Post. “These [beggars] stay here for 12 hours. They don’t want them there.”

Update 1:20 pm CST – Chabad.info picked up the Post's story in full – except for one act of censorship. Here are the closing two paragraphs of the Post's article as Chabad.info posted them. The phrase in bold replaces the Post's citation of Failed Messiah:

…Beggars told a blog that they were being slapped with a $5 fee because the congregation is “losing too much money” to the panhandlers. The policy has been in place for at least a year and a half, but only recently began to be enforced, beggars said.

“There are some of these guys who are legitimate, but a lot of them are disrupting the congregants,” a worshipper who wished to remain anonymous told The Post. “These [beggars] stay here for 12 hours. They don’t want them there.”

Exclusive: In Chabad's Central Synagogue, Charity Collectors Have To Pay To Play.

Comments

[Eli]

I don't see the problem. If you are a large, money-making operation, and people come to earn income on your premises, why can't you charge them rent?
Of course, to be perfectly legit, they should also be giving receipts and reporting the income to the IRS....

[WoolSilkCotton]

What other religion allows panhandlers to wander around inside the sanctuary, asking congregants for money?

You don't see this at St. Patrick's Cathedral or the Cathedral of Saint John the Divine.

770 was always remarkably tolerant of this sort of thing.

This is a bad PR move for 770. If they don't want the panhandlers anymore, then evict them and let them work on the sidewalk outside. Charging them a $5 schnorring permit just looks bad all around.

[Simple Jew]

B"H

You should all go to 770 and give some extra gelt to the collectors to help them pay for this supposed fee.

Anyone have any REAL idea on how much money someone can collect being there a whole day? I personally give a quarter to each collector there and it usually is like $1-$2 total. So if I were to daven in 770 everyday 2x it would be like $1000 a year.

[ruthie]

HELLO
1. 98% of the people begging for money ARE NOT JEWISH.
2. they are gypsies.
3. gypsies are very good at what they do. i tip my hat to their skills.
not kidding. i learned all about them when i lived on mcdougal st. in the village. they were my neighbors and i watched how they did business with the tourists. ha! one even had a little boy named miller. miller....as in beer.
4. if a gypsy needed money, i would give them a dollar.
5. if a gypsy makes believe they are jews...I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT.
6. next time you see anyone outside of 770 or YOUR LOCAL KOSHER supermarkets.....ask them to say the shema. ask.
i always do.
7. within a year, i will have to have another question because there is no doubt that they will find it and learn it by then.
they are reallly good.

[Office of the Chief Rabbi]

The shnorrers should set up blogs on the public computers down the street at the Brooklyn Public Library, and shnorr thereon. It must provide a living, since Shmarya continues to refuse going on a speaking tour -with Yohanan Lavie as warm-up.
Or, from the BPL they could go across the street to the big Reform temple at #1 Eastern Pkwy. Just love Grand Army Plaza.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Simple Jew, let's do the math.

If you are giving about $2 each time you visit 770, let's say at least half the people there are doing the same.
How many people go through 770 each day to daven? Many hundreds.
So there must be at least $1000/day being distributed.
And how many panhandlers are there? About a dozen or so?
I would therefore estimate that a busy panhandler is probably taking in about $100/day at 770.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Ruthie, I agree, a lot of them aren't Jewish, but they quickly learn the words to say, such as "gibt tzedakah", "zeit gezunt", "boruch hashem", and on Friday "gutten Shabbos".

I once overheard a couple of these guys at 770 comparing notes and strategies!

[jancsipista]

WoolSilkCotton-- What other religion allows panhandlers to wander around inside the sanctuary, asking congregants for money?
I keep asking myself the same question,prewar europe when the poverty rate was much much more then todays there was no such thing as going to eoples houses ans entering synagougues to beg this morning a couple of hassidim came in and begging this is the height of insanity especially in a country like usa where there is no poverty you can get food stamps in europe even in poverty people had dignity and self respect to the this kind of shnorerei it is absolute madness and shameless and its mostly done by hassidim who mock all decency anything goes by them its a hefeke velt

[ruthie]

jancsipista,
please realize
98% of them are not jewish.
they are gypsies.
for you, i will go down to 97%
i agree with you but please realize that most of them are not jewish.
i have no problem giving tzedakah but not to someone who poses as a jew and knows all the right words as woolsilkcotton pointed out.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Apologies to the Temptations (Ain't too proud):

I know ain't a Lubab,
but I refuse to let it go
If I have to beg and plead for your cash money,
I don't mind cuz' five bucks ain't much to me

Chorus:
Ain't too proud to schnorr, and you know it
Please don't stiff me Jews, don't you go
Ain't too proud to plead, Rebbe, Rebbe
Please don't stiff me, Jews, don't you go

Now I heard a schrei gevalt,
Is not a plan, with no sense of pride
But if I have to schrei to fleece you,
I don't mind weepin' if it'll keep your credit line.

Chorus

If I have to sleep at 770
All night and day just to keep my spot in the fray
Let the Chassidim laugh, even this I can stand
cause I want to keep you giving me some cash

Chorus

Now I've gotta love so deep in the pit of my wallet
And each day it grows more and more
I'm not ashamed to come and pray to the Rebbe
If prayin' keeps me from walkin' out that door

Chorus till fade out

[Shmarya]

WSC –

I'd say they average less than that, from what I've heard.

Staying in 770 from 6 or 7 in the morning to 6 or 7 at night might average out at $70 per day – $350 per week. Add in Friday morning and maybe you get to $400.

And that's assuming people give to each collector every day just like they did the day before.

The reality is that the money raised drops the more constant the exposure.

At any rate, $1600 per month plus a social security disability check means a collector working 65 hours per week makes on average less than $2500 per month. And that INCLUDES food stamps.

The social services net is extremely weak, and only people who fit into certain categories get enough help to make it.

That means single adults below the age of 65 without live-in dependents get almost no help.

The same is true for married couples of the age group without dependent children.

Those with dependent children get a little bit more help, but you can go to family homeless shelters any evening you choose to seem them full, with families crammed together in small rooms.

Many of those families have at least one working parent. But they're homeless because politicians gutted the Section 8 housing program.

Two parents who used to work in industries which paid good wages and had good benefits now often work for Wal Mart and similar companies, often each holding down two part time jobs. They get no benefits.

Working 40 hours per week per parent, that family would earn about $30,000 per year gross.

They might be able to squeak by if they don't live in a major city and if they are very, very careful and if their kids are very, very careful, and if they live in a very inexpensive area of the country.

Families like that fill homeless shelters.

If the collector lives alone in a frum neighborhood, he or she is paying close to $1000 for rent each month for a basement apartment in a private house – more for an apartment in an apartment building.

If the collector is not disabled or on Social Security but is unemployed but out of benefits, sick, or waiting to get on disability – which takes 6 months to 2 years, by the way; I know of quadriplegics who had to appeal a rejection the Social Security Administration – he has to live on less than $1800, the $1600 he collected plus food stamps.

And what happens if he has a family?

The United States does not do enough to help people like this.

Neither does the Jewish community.

Are some collectors frauds? Of course.

Are some "Gypsies" as Ruthie says? Probably. And some others are probably other non-Jews.

But unless we know with certainty that the person collecting is absolutely not poor, or that the cause he is collecting for is fraudulent, we're supposed to help.

The truth is, we should all be demanding that the government pay for safe affordable housing for low income Americans – enough housing so that all people who need it can get it.

And we should also demand that Jewish communities do the same, meaning that at bare minimum, members of a Jewish community that need safe, clean temporary or permanent housing within the community get it.

Some people will always scam the system. This is nothing new. Halakha even talks about it.

But we don't punish and abandon the people who really need the help in order to prevent the fraudsters from ripping us off.

We should also demand the government fund real, viable job retraining programs for those who need them, and community college certificates or degrees in fields that need employees.

And the Jewish community should have its own programs, as well, at least until the government has its own.

But we don't do these things, and people who really need help – including members of our community – don't get it.

Should a sick person become homeless because of his illness?

Should a sick person's children?

Should an unemployed man who can't find a job?

What about an unemployed woman?

What about their kids?

Should an old person have to skip meals and skip prescribed medicines?

My God, why is it that so many people with money do not understand or care about people like this?

[ruthie]

yochanan lavie..
you're a poet
you know it
don't blow it

[Mike]

Um... let me get this straight...

Tzedaka, which is one of the main tenants of Judaism, is being thrown out the window for... what reason exactly?

People have totally lost track of what Judasim is all about. Isn't there even a law of maaser that a person must leave a corner of their field for poor people to freely take? And now they have to pay an ENTRANCE fee?! Judaism is supposed to be a religion that is sympathetic to poor people's suffering, and today, we are living in an age when the supposedly "religious" Jews charge people to beg for charity.

[ruthie]

mike,
you are correct.
absolutely correct.
the sign of a jewish person is also compassion.
my spawn's first word, of which i am proud to say, was tzadakah.

i just thought this was a great way to let people know that there
are a lot of people scamming tzadakah....by posing as jews.

so we have two subjects here.

[Eli]

ruthie, so they are renting begging access to mostly non-Jews? Sounds like good business, even if it's a funny way to run a religious institution.
And to those who claim no other religions allow panhandlers to do this, you've never visited any cathedrals in Spain or Italy where you can't avoid the Gypsies, often posing as catholics and holding crosses or an image of the madonna. The Vatican could use the lesson here.

[shlomo as always with bad english]

some city in usa require license to beggars ,they should prove, that they really needed.
2. when i first time come to 770 i put my luggage inside and go to find place. today it impossible same gabay'm throw it outside.when i need to find apartment i put small add on 770 and find place. today it $40. what about this last years gaboim want turn 770 to museum, and sale tickets. like it own business.
i knew one rusian shlemazel, that want to do brith in 770. only money that he found it for mohel and like $100 for drink and cold-cut. but when he come goboim ask him for $300 only for place.!!!!! it huge money for never working man+6 but they was very hard. only after 2 hours someone name AMNON COHEN (G-d bless him) that was praying in this time pay $300 and only after they permit to brit.
did somebody believe that this situation was possible when REBE zcl was here? and all this people are moshihistim......

[ruthie]

shlomo,
your english is very good

[Shmarya]

What other religion allows panhandlers to wander around inside the sanctuary, asking congregants for money?
I keep asking myself the same question,prewar europe when the poverty rate was much much more then todays there was no such thing as going to eoples houses ans entering synagougues to beg this morning a couple of hassidim came in and begging this is the height of insanity especially in a country like usa where there is no poverty you can get food stamps in europe even in poverty people had dignity and self respect to the this kind of shnorerei it is absolute madness and shameless and its mostly done by hassidim who mock all decency anything goes by them its a hefeke velt

Posted by: jancsipista | January 29, 2012 at 10:41 AM

People certainly did beg door to door and in synagogues in Europe before the war.

Food stamps don't give a person enough food to live for the month.

And there is almost no housing support available.

Read my long comment above.

[Simple Jew]

B"H

There are HUGE amounts of money being given to Chesed projects to help people in jewish communities.

Maybe some of the people spending time spewing hatred of frum people should offer some time to volunteer in some of the programs. Or if you prefer maybe take some time to help a specific individual to navigate "the system". The US social service system is spending billions and often the people that need the help the most don't get it because no one is able to help the person who needs it the most to navigate the system. Someone working 50-60 hours a week doesnt have time to spend a day at a ss office waiting for a social worker to help fill out a form.

[Yaakov]

I have to say it again…

"We aren't as bad as them!" is a lousy argument. We know what tzedaka is. Translate it. It's doesn't translate to "charity", it translates to "justice". These people are "begging" for what we are obligated to give them. It is already a terrible thing to be reduced to begging. Adding a burden, adding embarrassment, is anti-Jewish.

The measure of our righteousness is not relative to other people but according to our evolved morality. The Torah taught us about tzedaka, and each generation we learn more about our own selfishness and the need of others. If we do not stand up and deal with this we are willful abusers of responsibility.

If you give $1.000 to "beggars" each year, that's great, deduct it from your 10% obligation. If you are average 10% of your income is something like $4,500 so there is plenty of room in the budget.

Don't make excuses for the hardening hearts of the Jews. Religious Jews move farther from Torah every time the move to the right and replace tifferet with gevurah. Stop worshipping religion and do teshuvah. Go back to what you know is right and abandon the excuses.

The fact that some beggars are liars is not your responsibility. If you err in giving you have still done your work. Sure, you should use sense in choosing who to give to, but don't dare use the goniffs to excuse your own financial misdeed of not giving.

[ruthie]

People certainly did beg door to door and in synagogues in Europe before the war.

shamrya,
i bet they were treated more respectfully....
by people who weren't crazy themselves,
a kind compassionate jewish person, or any truly compassionate person would trip over their shoelaces to be able to help and give something....
today they're charging $5...why not 10 dollars??? to go into a shul???? omg....i'd rather go into a non kosher restaurant. at least that would be real.
seriously it could be because there are THAT many gypsies posing as jews.....this is a helluva good scam....easy, safe and esp. on fridays....very profitable.

[Yaakov]

ruthie:

For the scammer, the $5.00 fee is not a barrier, just a cost of doing business.

I can see this as a "practical measure" to manage the number of "beggars". The question is, are "practical measures" justified in this case. Why are these people reduced to begging in the synagogue anyway? Why don't they get help once they are known? Why should they have to come back day after day taking quarters?

The Lubavitch community is very wealthy, why aren't people helping them (with grants, loans, jobs, etc.), so they don't have have to come to the shul?

I know it is not simple, and people do take advantage but in a case like this, wasting a little money on a scam is far better than denying a person who really needs your help.

[WoolSilkCotton]

I always admired the fact that 770 allowed beggars; there is indeed something very 'Jewish' about directly helping the poor.
Are some of them really Jewish, or really poor? I'm not going to ask anyone there for his credentials. It's up to the individual person who comes there to daven as to whether he wants to give to a beggar.

I don't know why there is this change of policy requiring a $5 fee. It certainly looks bad in terms of public relations, but let's keep in mind, no other religion in NYC ever allowed beggars into the door in the first place.

[ruthie]

simple jew,
the way the system works here is that if someone is spending even 40 hours a week working...
they will get hardly if anything from social services.
unless the employer agrees to fudge the paystubs....many many many many almost all in monsey that receive social services have fake paystubs and the landlords are in on it too.
they say that they receive $400 a month in rent...
actually they are paying more than a thousand easily..
then they go to social services....and say look i make minimum wage and i only pay this much in rent.....they know the system...
rabbi horowitz from melnick drive you listening??? you thief/jewish gypsy
i do feel for the ones that don't have mr. satmar rabbi horowitz or other people helping them. i hope they are helped by the jewish federation or other jewish agencies...but the frummer the agency the more bullshit.
and yaakov just because people complained about the gypsies posing as jews which does bother me....what makes you think people don't give tzadakah? my best friend refuses to give to organizations at all....and makes sure individuals get it. he usually leaves it in their mailboxes. they never know it was him. but i think he would see thru the gypsies scam too. it's a good scam. so there are the frum hasidim scamming and the gypsies.
i think this is pretty funny already.
but if a person doesn't give because someone is a gypsy POSING AS A JEW and then doesn't give....that's another subject.
i have gone over to them many times....different locations...and simply asked them to say shema.
and i ask kindly....and i tell them tell me you're a gypsy and i'll give you money but don't make believe you're a jew. maybe i'm the only one yaakov...but it bothers me.

[Yaakov]

WoolSilkCotton:

Actually, the most Jewish way to help the poor is indirectly. Aside from a job or making a partnership, the highest form of tzedaka, according to the Rambam, is double-blind. That is, the giver doesn't know the recipient, nor the recipient the giver. A loan is preferred to a gift, since a loan can be repaid.

[ruthie]

yes, yaakov,
that's how my mom did it.
and my dad, would have cleaned the streets in public before asking for assistance.
i always say if a person EVEN THINKS THEY need social services...they should try and get the help.
but the frum community here in monsey treats social services as a wedding present for the young couple.....rich and poor alike.
hear that developers of patrick farms....??? you're so rich and yet you send your relatives for food stamps....so you can retrieve the taxes you had to give to the state. you disgust me.

[Yaakov]

ruthie:

Lying to get money, as a job, is despicable. A person who makes a decent living as a panhandler is a person who could make a living some other way but chooses to take money from the poor, and to create cynicism among those predisposed to help the poor.

I have no sympathy for people who use fake poverty for financial gain, so you are not the only one. I suppose the difference for me is, I am not going to give money to a person like that.

[Rebitzman]

@WoolSilkCotton

Great post - well thought out

@ruthie

So they aren't Jewish? And?

[ruthie]

it's ok yaakov,
they NEVER admit they're gypsies...even after
i ask them again...please say shema...
so they don't get anything..

[ruthie]

yaakov, oh! i misunderstood
pardon...
but if a person doesn't give because someone is a gypsy POSING AS A JEW and then doesn't give...
i meant doesn't give somewhere else not to that specific individual posing as a jewish person.

[ruthie]

i have no problem rebitzman that they're not jewish....
omg...
i have a problem that it's purim/halloween for them and they're dressing and speaking as a hasidic jew ....that's what bothers me.
c'mon....
please.....
i would MARRY a non jew in a sweet second after living in monsey.

[TheRealJoe]

It's sad that the NYP felt they needed to publish this story. 770'S open door policy, was in need of reform for years, certain days of the week, you can't walk 3 feet without someone hustling you, or giving you a dirty look, and they do that to MINOR'S. Its simple could the Gabboim have picked a better way to go about it sure, but to all of those self righteous complaining on F.M, why not start a fund for these holy beggars, or better yet why not help them get a job, or help them sign up for all of the Government programs.

[ruthie]

it's like if i were to go to italy....
to the vatican....
see the facist pope...
and i have had the honor of meeting very kind nuns in my travels thru life...
and i were in vatican city...and there were some nuns.
so i give some euros to them...
i would be slightly upset if i found out they were a bunch of jewish people scamming me posing as nuns..
if you need help, please ask....a lot of people will help. not everyone...but don't make believe you're someone of another faith....esp. in front of a shul or kosher supermarket

[jancsipista]

ruthie- You are wrong on that 98% of them are not jewish very very wrong 98% are jewish

[ruthie]

maybe where you live jancsipista...
i am not being sarcastic with you here...writing this to you with respect....maybe your neighborhood....
but they're not afraid of pulling this in monsey!

[ruthie]

jancsipista,
from their viewpoint...i understand...
you live in boro park right..?
i would be scared to do this in boro park if i were them.
but they were always in front of 770 and now all the
kosher supermarkets in monsey.
actually people ARE catching on....seeing less of them lately.
long island, hello.....how it going out there? and in respect to their culture....they travel...
unless they own a really valuable storefront like in the village (to the international crowd: greenwich village or anything below 14th st.) but they have thinned out here, for sure.

[Isa]

Want to see real poor people?
I go to Mexico [Neve Progresso and Matamoros] and I only give to women and children. I carry lots of pocket change just for that.
BTW Neve Progresso is the probably safest Mexican border town that there is-just stay on the main street

[Isa]

I should have added I go there for cheap LEGAL pharmaceuticals

[ruthie]

and some of the women and children very clearly need it....and it's very noble and kind of you.
and how many men are forcing the women and children to go out there because people like you...and i intend this to be respectful..only give to women and children.
but i would do the same thing...how can you ignore women and children....and they're not dressing up to look like they're from madrid or copenhagen...they're who they are.

[shlomo as always with bad english]

other side. it some place in CH that all needed can get good kosher food. BUT you never see beggar from 770. and people, that need for food never begg for money in 770. paradox? if somebody want help and give tzdaka ,better to give in place, that really help to people

[Wigmore]

From the article:

They say their right to panhandle in the house of worship comes from a higher authority — Jewish law, which allows begging in synagogues and public events, including weddings, where food is set aside for beggars and uninvited guests.

This is nonsense. And even if it were true, it does not trump New York law making the schnorrers guilty of, at the minimum, criminal trespass.

[Shmarya]

Halakha absolutely does allow a beggar to beg, and traditionally a lot of that begging was done inside synagogues.

Your "nonsense" is in fact what the reality was for hundreds of years.

[bmg coffe room]

In lakewood nj there is an org. That is run by yeshiva called tomchey tzedakah. I believe they charge every meshuluch around 20 Bux for a permit to have the right to collect in lakewood for a max of 2 weeks at a time. Next time they come they get charged all over again. So its not only a chabad minhag. Unfortunately

[shlomo as always with bad english]

bmg coffe room it simple! chabad is russian hasidut. in russia beggars always must pay for this.minhag :)

[Confused]

Déjà vu

Is this a new story? I could have sworn that I saw this before and people commented on this already.

http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2012/01/in-chabads-central-synagogue-charity-collectors-have-to-pay-to-play-123.html

I guess having another opportunity to bash chabad is not a bad thing!

[KJ]

A reasonable way of controlling the number of shnorers. If it were me, I would ask for a "piece of the action". A lesson learned from my relative, "Uncle Sam"

[Yaakov]

Confused:

Why is more discussion somehow wrong? Do you think the previous thread was definitive and can't be added to? Your contention that this thread is about "Chabad bashing" is belied by its content.

This is a discussion about the nature of tzedaka and the response of Jewish institutions to it. The fact that it involves 770 is chance. We all know that Shmarya has a history with Chabad, but that doesn't mean he has to ignore Chabad wrongdoing to be fair in reporting, nor that any time he brings up soemthing related to Chabad it is because he has an agenda.

This story was an excellent starting point for a substantive discussion on poverty and tzedaka. Your agenda is showing.

[Mike]

Who cares whether the beggar is Jewish or not?

The main idea of tzedaka, at least in my opinion, is compassion for those who have less than we do. To discriminate which people you will or will not show compassion to based on their religion or race is, in my mind, not compassion at all. And what this synagouge is doing to these beggars is the opposite of compassion.

And regarding the whole fake beggar issue, in kind of the same vein that Yaakov mentioned, it is reprehensible that anyone could go around faking poverty. But creating an entrance fee for beggars is hardly a solution.

[Wigmore]

Halakha absolutely does allow a beggar to beg, and traditionally a lot of that begging was done inside synagogues.

Your "nonsense" is in fact what the reality was for hundreds of years.

Posted by: Shmarya | January 29, 2012 at 01:32 PM

Let's try this again. I'm holding a wedding. Schnorrers infiltrate the hall and harrass my guests. Are you even hinting I can't throw them out?

[Eli]

Mike, Shmarya, seriously. Why is an entrance fee bad? They could just kick them out.
Yes, there are other things that Society should do for those in need. So "let's go arrest Society"? (Monty Python)
Given that Chabad is essentially big business, it seems equitable that they would give access to anyone, Jew or non-Jew, in exchange for a small cut of the take. It's business, just normal business, without any illusion of something greater being at stake.

[Shmarya]

éjà vu

Is this a new story? I could have sworn that I saw this before and people commented on this already.

http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2012/01/in-chabads-central-synagogue-charity-collectors-have-to-pay-to-play-123.html

I guess having another opportunity to bash chabad is not a bad thing!

Posted by: Confused | January 29, 2012 at 02:35 PM

No, idiot.

It quite obviously means that the New York Post picked up my report and confirmed it.

[Shmarya]

Let's try this again. I'm holding a wedding. Schnorrers infiltrate the hall and harrass my guests. Are you even hinting I can't throw them out?

Posted by: Wigmore | January 29, 2012 at 03:28 PM

Actually, if you research the issue a bit, you'll see that doing what you advocate is not only forbidden (unless a particular beggar is truly misbehaving), it is considered to be a curse on the bride and groom.

[KJ]

But creating an entrance fee for beggars is hardly a solution.

but it is a good start.

[Mike]

Why is an entrance fee bad?

Even if you had a legitimate reason to explain away why it isn't, how is it good?
Everyone on their side of the fence is arguing about how the beggars are a "nuisance." But if you were in the position that they were in, I highly doubt you would appreciate being considered as such.

[Wigmore]

Actually, if you research the issue a bit, you'll see that doing what you advocate is not only forbidden (unless a particular beggar is truly misbehaving), it is considered to be a curse on the bride and groom.

Posted by: Shmarya | January 29, 2012 at 03:41 PM

Don't misunderstand this; I'm not fighting with you. Is this written specifically in a major source of Halacha, e.g. the Gemorah, the Shulchan Aruch, etc., or is this just what some rabbi said?

[Eli]

If I were in their position, I'd have to decide whether to hit people up for free outside JFK, or pay $5 and go to 770. I'd make my decision based on which would be more likely to yield a bigger take, net of fees. So, if I think I'm good at schnorring, i pay the $5 knowing it's a good investment.
See? All works out, and Chabad not only pockets some additional funds, but virtually guarantees the presence of a higher class of beggars at 770!

[Shmarya]

Don't misunderstand this; I'm not fighting with you. Is this written specifically in a major source of Halacha, e.g. the Gemorah, the Shulchan Aruch, etc., or is this just what some rabbi said?

Posted by: Wigmore | January 29, 2012 at 04:03 PM

All of the above, I believe.

[Mike the MO Maven]

Eli- Since when is begging for charity an investment?

[Mike]

And Mike the MO Maven is the username I use on frum satire- great website, btw

[ruthie]

MIKE
Who cares whether the beggar is Jewish or not?
please do not misunderstand me...it does not matter AT ALL if they're jewish or not...
i am bothered by the fact that they fake being jewish...for them it's a scam.
they have everything down pact. the language and the clothing.

Ruthie, I agree, a lot of them aren't Jewish, but they quickly learn the words to say, such as "gibt tzedakah", "zeit gezunt", "boruch hashem", and on Friday "gutten Shabbos".

I once overheard a couple of these guys at 770 comparing notes and strategies!
Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | January 29, 2012 at 10:34 A

[Mike]

ruthie- I think this problem is more indicative of the overwhelming level of racism in these communities. The only way these beggars would even get money in the first place is if they posed as religous jews, because if they came to them as non-jews, they would be rejected in two seconds flat. Agreed- faking poverty and coming under false pretenses is a horrible crime. But discriminating against starving non-Jews is even worse.

[bob]

giving $5 to chabad is in itself a form of charity-- and this conforms to the Jewish dictum that all people--even those who live on charity--should give to charity. The NY Post is a sensationaist tabloid, but a moment's thought would have put this baby to rest from the start.

[ruthie]

mike,
they're not starving.
they're plump.
i know i must come across as quite mean.
i'm not.
i do understand what you're saying and maybe you have a point.
thank you for teaching me

[ruthie]

i have a plane ticket. just bought one.
i am leaving monsey early tomorrow morning.
goodbye my friends.
thank you for everything.
yochanan i enjoyed you the most.
going far away...to a far away island near australia.
no internet!
no phones.
hope there are men!!!

[Shlomo1]

Shmarya do you really think that chabad.info are going to print the name of your blog when it is called failed messiah it's actually pretty good that they reprinted the article at all

[Yaakov]

Ruthie:

Be well, be safe.

Yaakov

[WoolSilkCotton]

Ruthie, all the very best!

[seymour]

hope there are men!!!

Posted by: ruthie | January 29, 2012 at 05:25 P

no internet no phone

who cares about men

hope you enjoy

[Confused]

It quite obviously means that the New York Post picked up my report and confirmed it.

Posted by: Shmarya | January 29, 2012 at 03:38 PM

I did not see your name mentioned as a source are you sure that is where they got it?

[Shmarya]

Yes.

I broke the story and they cite me at the end of the article.

[ultra haredi lite]

Ruthie be safe don't come back with anything exotic.

[Wigmore]

Sorry, but I decline to accept the notion that a beggar is allowed to "farshtehr" my simcha notwithstanding the harm he causes to me as well as violating the laws of the State of New York.

What next, they ring my bell, I have to let them in or I'm "chayav malkos?"

Really now? This just makes no sense at all.

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

And to those who claim no other religions allow panhandlers to do this, you've never visited any cathedrals in Spain or Italy where you can't avoid the Gypsies, often posing as catholics and holding crosses or an image of the madonna. The Vatican could use the lesson here.

So called Gypsies tend to adopt the religion of the host culture. In Spain it is split between Roman Catholicism and Protestantism. Many in the south are Pentecostal.

[KENJI]

My God, why is it that so many people with money do not understand or care about people like this?

Posted by: Shmarya | January 29, 2012 at 11:10 AM

One word...GREED

[ca]

There are, often one or two weddings a night in Crown Heights, Lichaims, brisim, shalom zachars etc etc. The beggars are well fed and well paid. I observe them at weddings. They no longer sit at the tables designated for uninvited guests. They take a regular seat and sit and fress a lavish meal. Then they go right up to the main table for a big glass of whiskey. After they hit everyone up they move to the next wedding, Lichaim etc. People at weddings dont't give a quarter. Its a min of a dollar and often more. I have never see anything like it being tolerated anywhere.

[ca]

Not many here would allow begging at their private family functions.

[Mendel Mendel]

Let's try this again. I'm holding a wedding. Schnorrers infiltrate the hall and harrass my guests. Are you even hinting I can't throw them out?
Posted by: Wigmore | January 29, 2012 at 03:28 PM
The halachically correct procedure is an area for men, an area for women, and a holding pen for the shnorrers.

[yechi ben levitas]

Temple's 5 dollar cut.As a rather simple jew, oftenseeking answers, could it be explained why you refer to the CHABAD Shool/synagogue as a temple.Chabad is the followers of tanya are they not? Does this following allow them to call the messianic place of worship a TEMPLE. A temple i thought the TEMPLE WAS IN jERUSALEM. I wont comment on the cost of schnorring, but it comes to mind you also have a temple in los angles some semi reform shool going back to the 19th centuary where the reform jews play at judaisim.

[yechi ben levitas]

comment to ca 30th jan.You canot really be Jewish? Dont be such a schnorrer, if you are in fact jewish.

[Yosef ben Matitya]

This is a bad PR move for 770. If they don't want the panhandlers anymore, then evict them and let them work on the sidewalk outside. Charging them a $5 schnorring permit just looks bad all around.
WSC,
looking bad in their case comes before and after the 5 bucks.
their biggest problems are heresy and rabid political extremism.

[yechi ben levitas]

WE WANT MASHIACH NOW. HE MAY COME IN WITH OR without the five dollars.

[KJ]

I think the $5 is not enough. They should also be asked a series of 5 random questions of which they have to get 3 out of the 5 correct.

Another option. Let as many beggars as want to stay and beg outside. As to entrance, have a limited number. Print up beggar cards and distribute them every morning, first come first serve. This card will allow a beggar to enter and ply their trade for the time slot printed on the card. This is fair and keeps things under control.

[ultra haredi lite]

In LW the charge is meant to cover the administrative costs to research and verify the authenticity of the shnorers story, etc.
unlike the pay to grovel at 770. If only the denizens of chabad houses round the world knew the real scoop on chabad.

[yechi ben levitas]

KJ, sounds reasonable and possible.Wigmore, i hope you are not a bigot,G"D forbid. may i suggeat you all get a copy of Israel ZANGWILL'S BOOK. ITS CALLED the KING of SCHNORRERS.from his book of short stories."That all men are beggars,!tis very plain to see, Though some they are of lowly, and some of high degree, Your ministers of state will say they never will allow - That Kings from subjects beg; but that you know is all bow - wow.

[rebeljew]

Simple. They are annoyed by the beggars. The Talmud has very clear ideas on that, and on ideas that had been put forth in ancient times to confine beggars. In short, the Rabanim did not consider this a positive midah, but rather a sign of haughtiness.

Wouldn't it be a great if one of the big rich Chabad donors or fundraisers would raise the entrance fees to give to any beggar who wished to enter.

[rebeljew]

In many chasidic stories, Eliyahu Hanavi comes as an incognito beggar. Dare we ask? If he doesn't pay, what implications does this have on the harbinger of Moshiach or Moshiach himself?

[KJ]

In many chasidic stories, Eliyahu Hanavi comes as an incognito beggar. Dare we ask? If he doesn't pay, what implications does this have on the harbinger of Moshiach or Moshiach himself?

Posted by: rebeljew | January 30, 2012 at 11:01 AM

Hopefully g-d sends him with some spending money. What if he needs a cab or needs to take the train? What if he himself runs into a shnorer, not cool to say, hey buddy sorry I have no cash on me.

Shouldn't be a problem anyhow, the rebbe always has a wad of dollar bills with him :)

[KJ]

going far away...to a far away island near australia.
no internet!
no phones.
hope there are men!!!

Posted by: ruthie | January 29, 2012 at 05:25 PM

I am sure there is a chabad house nearby! Enjoy!

[Mendel]

Let me attempt to understand the facts here:

A person that is hungry or destitute is "schnorring" if they beg for money at the rebbe's house. A rabbi, for example a Cunin, is merely asking for a "contribution" if he asks for millions of dollars to save his chabad house from foreclosure. What is the difference if one man is asking for 2 dollars or 2 million dollars? Why is the beggar looked down upon yet the rabbi is seen as a hero?

[Shmarya]

…Why is the beggar looked down upon yet the rabbi is seen as a hero?

Posted by: Mendel | January 31, 2012 at 11:45 AM

That's an especially good question when the biblical requirement to give ma'aser oni, a tithe to the poor, must be given to a POOR PERSON. Building funds, outreach, etc., by most halakhic opinions do not qualify.