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January 23, 2012

Orthodox Soldier Refuses To Parachute Jump Because Instructor Is Female

Kippa SerugaCol. Amir Baram, commander of the Israel Defense Forces paratroopers brigade, has no doubts. "A soldier who says he doesn't feel like jumping because his parachuting instructor is a woman cannot be a combatant. The issue isn't open to discussion," an officer Baram's command said this week.

 

Religious Israeli soldiers have found a new form of disobedience
When the regulations are not clear, the commanders give way to religion; many commanders feel it is better to give in than to get into trouble.
By Amos Harel • Ha’aretz

Col. Amir Baram, commander of the Israel Defense Forces paratroopers brigade, has no doubts. "A soldier who says he doesn't feel like jumping because his parachuting instructor is a woman cannot be a combatant. The issue isn't open to discussion," an officer Baram's command said this week.

Last month a religious soldier refused to parachute because he had a female instructor. The physical contact between a parachuting instructor and a paratrooper jumping from a plane is minimal. Mostly it is merely a pat on the parachute on the soldier's back. But military regulations allow a religious soldier to ask for a male instructor instead of a female one.

On the face of it, the IDF's regulations are vague enough to leave commanders a wide margin of discretion. The General Staff relies on the field officers' judgment to solve problems that arise and avoid conflict. In reality it isn't that easy. In quite a few cases, commanders apparently are afraid of confronting soldiers - or rather their rabbis - on religious issues. When the regulations are not clear, the commanders give way to religion. Many commanders feel it is better to give in than to get into trouble.

The next confrontation is brewing over female instructors for religious soldiers. A document issued by the Chief of Staff's adviser on women's affairs, reported by Haaretz last year, cited several cases in which field-unit soldiers refused to receive instruction from women, claiming it could lead to forbidden physical contact.

The disobedient paratrooper is not alone - field-unit commanders say they detect a growing trend. Soldiers from hesder yeshivas, which combine military service with religious studies, protested when they had female instructors for shooting, artillery and other activities.

This kind of disobedience is relatively new and reflects a more extreme religious approach. Reserve officers who served with hesder soldiers in the 1970s and 1980s say thousands of religious students were trained by female instructors without a murmur.

The officers school where a scandal over women's singing broke out in September is now hammering out a lesson plan to teach future officers how to command soldiers from different religious and ideological backgrounds. The plan emphasizes the precedence of the military discipline and framework.

Four of the nine religious cadets who walked out of a ceremony in which female soldiers sang in September were ousted from the infantry officers course. Two of them were allowed to take the course again.

As in an argument over the wording of the Yizkor prayer, Chief of Staff Benny Gantz made an effort to clarify the regulations dealing with women's status in the army after the uproar in the officers school. But numerous similar incidents are giving the IDF a bad reputation, even among its well-wishers overseas.

In the middle of the month a delegation of retired, senior American officers, including generals with three and four stars, visited Israel. The visitors showed understanding toward internal Israeli conflict over fighting terror in civilian population centers. But they had no tolerance for the involvement of civilian rabbis in the army, or for women's exclusion.

"A chaplain, like a priest, has one duty only - to provide religious services," one of them said. "Nobody in Washington can understand or accept incidents of offending women or infringing on their dignity. If you continue this way, you will lose your friends in the world."

Comments

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exactly what i thought.
jesus christ

In time all these issues will be flushed out. We are in new territory here, haredim in the IDF! Imagine!

maybe he was also scared to jump?
for that i wouldn't blame him, many are.
but WE DON'T HAVE ROOM FOR THAT.
our survival is at stake.
and why was this not brought up before they were airborne.
this soldier is an idiot.
not for being scared...
for not mentioning it beforehand.
and let me tell you, the other soldiers need him to be strong and to be there for them too.

And did this genius know the instructor was female before getting on the plane? Did he then get on only so he could make his point? If so, his refusal is even worse, a set-up protest.

Push his ass out of the plane. Ready or not.

Leads to mixed dancing

Any soldier that refuses a direct order is subject to the existent military code of justice. First jailing, followed by a court martial. If in a time of war a soldier refuses a direct order the commanding officer is within rights to put a round between his eyes.

This had better be made known to our Haredi brothers. Although, in this case, I hope the female officer kicked his ass.

Malka Gittel:

Let's say, arguendo, it was a "setup". People have accused women of "setting up" protests on busses. Others have argued that it doesn't matter if it was "set up", I am among them.

Given that, what is the difference here? It is not that it as set up, not at all. In the case of the women on the busses it should not have been possible to provoke the men's response. Whatever provoked it is secondary to the response itself. In this case, no such condition pertains. There is no valid reason that a female instructor should make jumping prohibited.

It is similar to the difference between a sting and entrapment on the one hand, and foolish agitation on the other. In the case of the women, people claim the set up was akin to entrapment where I would argue it is like a sting. In this case, there is no sensible argument to explain the soldier's behavior based on what was reported.

I can draw one of two broad conclusions from this:

The report is incomplete and missing salient facts.

The soldier was being stupid and has no basis whatever for his actions other than plain misogyny.

I frankly don't know which is the case but I suppose I would err on the side on the former since the latter may be true but is very uncharitable and I would prefer to judge favorably.

In either case the possibility of a setup is completely irrelevant to me.

While the army acknowledges the problems with chariedim (as they are) joining the military.
They still won't give up the pressure on the chareidim to join!

Do you wanna know why?

Because they know(think) that-it might take some time- in the end they will be successful in changing everything the chariedi stands for!
As the military(known as the melting pot) did-and does- to all who join!

this has nothing to do with halacha

it is just some think woman should not be in any other position than a mom

Just today I went to my frum cardiologist and I was given a echo cardiogram by an attractive female technician

should I have walked out?
How could this frum cardiologist put me and other male patients in such a compromising position?
Should I call him out should I call his rebbie.

If getting Parachute jumping instruction from a female is ussar, getting an echo cardiogram where one needs to remove their shirts should be ussar with out question.

where can I report him?

Ruthie, I'm not sure how it works in the IDF, but in the U.S. Army parachuting is completely voluteer. A trainee can refuse to jump and all that will happen to him is that he will be transfered out of parachute traing and assigned to a "straight leg" unit. Even a qualified parachutist can can quit and become a "leg". We don't throw people out of airplanes if they don't want to go.

Failure to obey a direct order is a crime as it should be.

I think most people here are barking up the wrong tree. First of all, I doubt any of you have ever served in combat, so your moronic comments about "reporting him", "jailing him", "Push his ass out of the plane" are really cute considering you never picked up a gun in your life.

Second of all, here in the good old USA (where this blog is from), there are almost always accomodations for religion, even in prison. Why in the world would the army provoke a confrontation over this rather trivial situation? Because, after having been riled up by the secular anti-religious media, they want to take the religious down a notch. They want a confrontation? Watch what happens when the majority of officer's training candidates drop out. Let me ask you a question. If a religious Muslim Israeli asked for this, would you have a problem? I guess not.

If you look for a confrontation, don't expect this to be under the army's terms. Moral: Be careful what you wish for. You might get more than you bargained for.

Get a male instructor to push him out.

Right after he tells him a female packed his chute.

Let's see if he refuses to open it on the way down.

If he opens it, he's a hypocrate. If not, then he gets excused from further training for religious reasons.

wait a sec you want chareidim in the army yet you aren't prepared to respect their views.
As for the Pentagon etc. Israeli is NOT AMERICA Israel is a JEWISH country. if frum jews cannot be comfortable in the israeli army... who cares what the US says in this... and tell me the US army doens't have some degree of segragation e.g. separate bunks/barracks? Until recently they didn't even allow gays so who are they to talk...

Motti, if Jews make it impossible for Jewesses to serve in significant positions in the Israeli army, Israel is disarming itself.

rti:

I think most people here are barking up the wrong tree. First of all, I doubt any of you have ever served in combat, so your moronic comments about "reporting him", "jailing him", "Push his ass out of the plane" are really cute considering you never picked up a gun in your life.

This is fallacious. It isn't necessary to have been in the armed forces to have an opinion on this behavior. This is a trainee not in the heat of battle. There is nothing magical about having been a soldier when it comes to understanding the issues here.

Second of all, here in the good old USA (where this blog is from), there are almost always accomodations for religion, even in prison. Why in the world would the army provoke a confrontation over this rather trivial situation? Because, after having been riled up by the secular anti-religious media, they want to take the religious down a notch. They want a confrontation?

There isn't a snowball's chance in hell that the US armed forces would put up with this "accommodation". There is no halachic basis for this demand. If anyone is looking for a confrontation here it is the soldier, and the command shouldn't allow this nonsense. It is an effort to draw a line where no line should be.

Let me ask you a question. If a religious Muslim Israeli asked for this, would you have a problem? I guess not.

Yes, I would have a problem with it, on the same basis. It is nonsense. There is nothing happening here that requires the soldier to refuse to jump. Nothing except his own desire to prove that he can refuse.

If you look for a confrontation, don't expect this to be under the army's terms. Moral: Be careful what you wish for. You might get more than you bargained for.

I have no idea why you think that the Hesder extremists will necessarily "win" this battle. The women who serve in the IDF do so as peers. That is a longstanding tradition inside the IDF. The IDF has good reason to maintain it.

The bottom line is that you are attempting to discredit people with fallacious rhetoric and waving nebulous threats for which you have no rationale.

Posted by: motti | January 23, 2012 at 11:26 AM

the idf will and does accommodate people religious believes

but cannot comply with every crazy chumra that the herdeim will some up with.

what next, if he is male and gay can they say we do not want to serve under him?

normal requests are honored

chumras cannot.

who knows maybe they will say I cannot serve because I am a cohen and cannot fly over a grave even at 30,000 feet in the air.

i cannot use the gun unless i know no Jew produced it on shabbos?


Yaakov, As I posted above, you can't order a trainee to jump. If he refuses, he is dropped from parachute traing. P.S. The U.S. Army made plenty of accomodations for me.

There isn't a snowball's chance in hell that the US armed forces would put up with this "accommodation". There is no halachic basis for this demand.

Of course not. The US does not need haredi volunteers, so why should they bend the rules. However, it appears, from what I read here, that the IDF desperately need the haredim hence the need to accommodate.

As the expression goes, "Necessity is the mother of invention".

Rafael Kaufman:

Among the accommodation was not ignoring an officer because she is a woman. And, while it might be that parachute training is not obligatory in the US doesn't have any particular relevance to Israel.

The point here is that in the US armed forces a woman officer is an *officer* and you don't get to choose to obey an order or not based on her sex.

Frankly the idea that any soldier in any military should be able to disregard orders or instructions from any officer for any but the most compelling reasons is preposterous. And race, gender, religion, and sexual orientation are NOT compelling reasons. An officer is an officer, a trainer is a trainer. If Haredi can't follow that then they can't do the job.

Have to be honest. 
 
I think that in the doorway of an airplane that high up in the air that A) I too would suddenly get REAL relious REAL quick, and B) would probably blame just about anything or anyone (short of openly admitting that I was afraid) for my sudden and stark self awareness around the fact that there was absolutely nothing or anyone - male or female, that could compel me to jump out of a perfectly good airplane.
 
I think the instructor was an extremely convinient excuse.

I would have thought a nice bochur would WANT to jump away from a woman
(There's a story like that about the Rashash and/or the Ben Ish Chai, he jumped out the window to escape a woman)

pardon for changing the subject...
i came home today from wesley kosher...
and in every bag...was a fancy flyer...
saying join an inspirational pidyon shvuyim gathering...
for sholom mordechai haleve rubashkin...
i called the store...
of course, i'm so far from perfect, and told them fuck you for putting in my bag....every single bag had a flyer in it
i don't think i'm welcome...anymore....
i'm leaving....goodbye my friends....i love you all

Posted by: motti

wait a sec you want chareidim in the army yet you aren't prepared to respect their views.

The IDF is not required to respect your stated beliefs. No army in the world does that. Discipline trumps religion, Army regulation trumps paper books (within limits that ALL jews must obey from the Torah's laws, not a single group's).

When you put your personal selfish ideals before the ones of your fellow IDF members, that's insubordination, and has no part on the military complex. Against an instructor's ones?, that's mutiny. Because of her sex?, that's court-martial.

Cold feet is been part of the parachute training history. Disobeying a Female instructor for her gender, that's dafuk barosh.

But he boarded the plane with the broad and it was not even a gender segregated plane.

join an inspirational pidyon shvuyim gathering...
for sholom mordechai haleve rubashkin

Was this for men, women or both.

Posted by: מרדכי סטמר

As the military (known as the melting pot) did-and does- to all who join!

Welcome to the IDF, a cohesive fighting unit, where men and women fight side by side,... except מרדכי סטמר's extremist Chareidim, who should not fight per your wishes, or at least serve in the back-up service units, doing things like, as YOU said before, cleaning latrines.

Well, Bubeleh, here you had a chance of one of yours becoming a Paratrooper, no small feat, but refused to jump because of a נקבה instructor. Puts in doubt his manliness and devotion to the IDF, doesn't it, זקן?.

This post brought by מרדכי סטמר, Mr."Us, us, us! We will procreate you to death!. The defense of the State of Israel by us be damned because some old Toriah said so!. We will never serve!. Let other die for us!. Leave us alone, but conform to our extremist ways!."

Before we all champion the right of the female instructor to be there (and believe me, I do), realize that the initial introduction of female instructors in the Israeli army had a lot to do with Israeli machismo---if an Israeli recruit saw that a "mere" woman can jump out of a plane, shoot a target, do a judo hold, etc., then he would overcome any fear he had and jump out of a plane, shoot a target, etc. Otherwise, he would be ridiculed.

Welcome to the IDF, a cohesive fighting unit, where men and women fight side by side,... except מרדכי סטמר's extremist Chareidim, who should not fight per your wishes, or at least serve in the back-up service units, doing things like, as YOU said before, cleaning latrines.
Posted by: Bob Guthrie | January 23, 2012 at 03:38 PM


So we do agree on one thing....

That chariedim in their current form and historical background are NOT fit to serve?

Forget for a minute my side of the argument....


Please say it out loud!
You have to transform the chariedim's mind set,attitude,and way of life and most importantly abiding to the commands of trainers or generals rather then daas Toirah!

מרדכי סטמר-As they say in yiddish mordechay,kenst gain ois vishen dainem tohes mit dain toireh.translation you mordechay can go wipe youre ass with youre toireh

The guy is obviously not a haredi, haredis who enlist in the military do not go to combat units (which the exception of the good people of Nachal haredi). Most haredim go to be jobniks in 8200, mamram and kirya. After they finish their service they have a great job lining up for them. Those roles in the military are not open anymore to non-haredim. Secular and traditional Jews have to go to combat units and support.


Nobody is being drafted to to the parachute unit, he volunteered to be there, if he does not like to be train by a female he could join Nachal hHaeredy where the only women who can get into the camp are the wives of the soliders.

The guy is obviously not a haredi, haredis who enlist in the military do not go to combat units (which the exception of the good people of Nachal haredi). Most haredim go to be jobniks in 8200, mamram and kirya. After they finish their service they have a great job lining up for them. Those roles in the military are not open anymore to non-haredim. Secular and traditional Jews have to go to combat units and support.


Nobody is being drafted to to the parachute unit, he volunteered to be there, if he does not like to be train by a female he could join Nachal hHaeredy where the only women who can get into the camp are the wives of the soliders.

Posted by: מרדכי סטמר

So we do agree on one thing.... That chariedim in their current form and historical background are NOT fit to serve?.

Please say it out loud!

"The (extremist) Chariedim, in their current form and historical background, are NOT fit to serve". You... don't get it, do you?.

Oh, the irony.

can go wipe youre ass with youre mouth Posted by: jancsipista | January 23, 2012 at 06:25 PM


Speaking about aces...

.
Once your children will execute your will and cremate your sorry little old ace...
.
You will stand for din v'cheshbon (sorry, I still believe in the 13 ani maamins, to your disappointment,that there still exists people who do believe)

And the first question will be, why did you-while not believing- have to trash talk hashem and his toirah?

So I'm giving you an excuse...
that since you were an old fart, and you didn't have anything to say when there where intelligent discussions.

The only thing you knew was that in the neighborhood you lived your empty life, there were literally tens of thousands of people that you despised and they were growing in numbers beyond your wildest dreams! And you just couldn't handle it!

You can tell them that Mordechai satmar is the one who gave you that excuse...
you never know... they might except it , since it comes from an authentic original,chariedi jew!

Posted by: מרדכי סטמר

"Blah, blah, there (will be) literally tens of thousands of people that you despised and they were growing in numbers beyond your wildest dreams!, blah, blah,..."

What will you tell G-D, מרדכי סטמר, when he asks you at Judgement:

"Where were your kind when Israel fell,... Where were your people when the true fighters of Israel tried to save the Temple,... Where were your kind when secular jews, just jews and goyim tried to keep the Wall from falling from the attack of the enemy.

Where were you and your kind when Israel needed your presence defending her?".

...

"You: Uh, well, we were studying, procreating, and berating Zionists and Goyim from not following our extremists ways of our version of the Toriah."

Good luck with that line of reasoning, sure he will give you a five year reprieve with that line of logic, Bubeleh.

Posted by: מרדכי סטמר

Oh, one more thing, bubeleh. More and more World news outlets are reporting on the Extremist Chareidim, the Israeli tribe that will not defend her ("The defense of the State of Israel by us be damned because some old Toriah said so!. We will never serve!. Let other die for us!.").

...Those news outlets include Middle East agencies, which their military departments and terrorists groups will be informed that they can count on an extremist jewish group within Israel that won't bother them during an attack, and may help disrupt defenses.

Hamas and Hezbollah must praise you kind as much as to Allah.

I am trying to understand the basis for this refusal. Perhaps, the haredi soldier fears that when he jumps, his female instructor might be going "commando," and he would be forced to glimpse her genitalia on the way out of the plane, causing him to have a spontaneous semen emission, thereby transgressing the biblical prohibition against Onanism.

I think the poor fellow's חשש is unfounded, for several reasons:

1. It is highly unlikely the instructor would be garbed in clothing (e.g., a mini skirt) that would render her pussy visible from below were she not wearing panties.

2. Airborne troops jump from aeroplanes facing forward, in the direction they are jumping and not back toward the jumpmaster standing in the aeroplane door.

3. Even were her genitalia -- inexplicably -- visible from below after jumping, she might be hirsute to a sufficient degree so as to obscure said pussy.

4. The man, if really concerned about this new חומרא and חשש בעלמא is perfectly free to close his eyes and think about England, err, Israel!

It is therefore my reasoned halakhic opinion that the man in question is free to jump from aeroplanes in the course of his IDF service without any fear of transgressing by virtue of having a female instructor.

Additionally, since proper jump technique is actually a matter of פיקוח נפש and הצלת נפשות, general laws of modesty (short of actual גלוי עריות) do not apply. Only where the Torah mandates יהרוג ולא יעבור would a prohibition apply. So as long as his jump instructor is not a member of one of the biblically prohibited degrees (i.e., incest, etc.) and doesn't demand his sexual services at gunpoint, there is no basis whatsoever to fear moral transgression.

Indeed, defence of Eretz Israel and the Jews within it are a positive precept, and that overcomes anything but the express precepts on which it is said יהרוג ולא יעבור.

Posted by: A E ANDERSON

AAah! The visuals! The Googles do nothing! >.<

"Where were your kind when Israel fell,... Where were your people when the true fighters of Israel tried to save the Temple,... Where were your kind when secular jews, just jews and goyim tried to keep the Wall from falling from the attack of the enemy"

As a religious soldier in an elite unit in the IDF, I'll be happy to let you know that the true numbers are far from what you read in the paper. The soldiers most motivated for combat units today are religious. And everyday I'm seeing more and more religious officers in the IDF's special forces.

Posted by: mkblitz

As a religious soldier in an elite unit in the IDF, I'll be happy to let you know that the true numbers are far from what you read in the paper.

Yes, I know the difference on religion and troop strength of the religious IDF servicemen, a note I have made a point off in past IDF related posts.

No, you are not the Jewish Military Personnel I talk about when refereing to Religious Military, I talk about the religious extremist מרדכי סטמר defends, the ones that will NOT defend Israel because of their brand of belief, one of not serving for fear they will be integrated into Zionist society.

Or if they are "forced" into duty, relegate them away from combat units to service units to (his words) peel potatoes or clean latrines. This is מרדכי סטמר's "religious army" I'm talking about.

Hmm, I better make a better distinction when talking about religious IDF personnel and מרדכי סטמר's "army" in future posts, my bad. =P

If she says "jump" the Charedi should say "how high M'am?" or in this case - "Out of the plane?" and she says "Yes" and he says "Yes, Ma'm!".

You will stand for din v'cheshbon (sorry, I still believe in the 13 ani maamins, to your disappointment,that there still exists people who do believe)

And the first question will be, why did you-while not believing- have to trash talk hashem and his toirah?

Posted by: מרדכי סטמר | January 23, 2012 at 10:39 PM

What do you think your Reb Yoilish said when he was asked, "Why did you refuse to acknowledge the secular Jew who saved your life during the Holocaust?"

Or is God Haredi as well?

מרדכי סטמר-ANYONE CAN SEE YOURE PLAYING GOD YOU HAVE NO TOIREH YOU MAKE UP RULES AS YOU SEE FIT,YOU THINK YOURE INFANTILE THREATS OF PUNISHMENT FROM HASHEM MEANS ANYTHING NADA GURNISHT ITS ALL IN YOURE TIPISHE HEAD THAT IS DETACHED FROM THE REAL WORLD TO MAKE YOU FEEL YOU ARE SOMEBODY WHEN IN REALITY YOURE A NOTHING LESS THEN NOTHING GO GET HELP BEFORE ITS TOO LATE

Do real Haredim post on the internet? I thought it was pretty effectively banned in the Five Towns and all.

Malka Gittel:

They are using the Internet for "business". This is business, isn't it?

Oh boy! Do I have lots to comment about....

But the time doesn't allow it at the moment,
I have work to do....
Lot of mouths B"H to feed at home....
Stay tuned I might be able to give in to my inclination to respond....

Leads to mixed dancing

ROFLMAO!!!

Any soldier that refuses a direct order is subject to the existent military code of justice. First jailing, followed by a court martial.

Sorry to disillusion you, alter kocker, but in the real IDF things happen the other way around.

If in a time of war a soldier refuses a direct order the commanding officer is within rights to put a round between his eyes.

Which war and which army is he talking about?

Ribbono shel olam, does this alter kocker's nurses know he has stopped taking his medications?

Posted by: מרדכי סטמר

"Oh boy! Do I have lots to comment about....

Stay tuned I might be able to give in to my inclination to respond":

"Us, us, us! We will procreate you to death!. The defense of the State of Israel by us be damned because some old Toriah said so!. We will never serve!. Let other die for us!. Leave us alone, but conform to our extremist ways!."

What if this was a war situation ?

If I was a soldier and a female officer knew more about a situation than me and the bullets were flying I would listen to her. We all have our areas of expertise. Good organisations have a well defined command and control structure, where people give and follow orders, sometimes in very direct ways, at other times in more nuanced, subtle fashion. I can't think of a more life and death/surrender your knowledge to someone with more wisdom situation for your own sake than at the moment of jumping out of a plane with a parachute on your back. It seems for some gender segregation zealots that women are best confined barefoot and pregant in the kitchen and that they should occupy the lowest rungs of the societal pyramid. Perhaps what is on display here is good old fashioned misogyny masquerading as piousness.

Shmarya!

The BOLD HTML tag is stuck "on". Just FYI

Posted by: מרדכי סטמר

"Oh boy! Do I have lots to comment about....

Stay tuned I might be able to give in to my inclination to respond"

Sorry, Motke, but I have very urgent business to attend to that can not be postponed, even for you: I am watching paint dry.

Sorry, Motke, but I have very urgent business to attend to that can not be postponed, even for you: I am watching paint dry. Posted by: Chaim Ben-Yehuda | January 25, 2012 at 03:35 AM


I gotta give it to you....
You made me laugh

No, you are not the Jewish Military Personnel I talk about when refereing to Religious Military, I talk about the religious extremist מרדכי סטמר defends, the ones that will NOT defend Israel because of their brand of belief, one of not serving for fear they will be integrated into Zionist society.
Posted by: Bob Guthrie | January 24, 2012 at 02:25 AM


I'm happy to see that you are starting to get my point!

So we can now take it one level further.....

To differentiate those religious zionists who refuse to join the IDF, but in order to show good faith-so they can continue to get the public to subsidies their organizations and kollelim while also imposing clerical rule!- are sacrificing the misfits and outcasts of their society.

It might help the IDF secure (haha I said secure...) the zionist state, but in the meantime they are also endangering the entire charidi population around the world!
One example, Chabad house in Mumbei India!

If the terrorist and the world would of known(of course if only it would be a matter of fact) that Judaism and zionism does NOT have anything in common,and its only two opposing ideologies!

The terrorists wouldn't want to "send a message" to the world Jews by attacking a Chabad house or a synagogue in Tunisia!


(Ben yehudah,I'm not done... Stay tuned....)

What do you think your Reb Yoilish said when he was asked, "Why did you refuse to acknowledge the secular Jew who saved your life during the Holocaust?" Or is God Haredi as well? Posted by: Jeff | January 24, 2012 at 05:09 AM

I answered this already once.
There's no need to thank a guy and his crony buddies who out maneuvered the orthodox rescue committee of Budapest,and took charge of a rescue effort that was meant to rescue hundreds of thousands of Hungarian jews, and undercut and jeopardized the negotiations so it ended with only the Satmar Rabbi's train being the first and last transport out of hell!


Posted by: מרדכי סטמר | January 25, 2012 at 01:17 PM

Yeah, that's about what I figured.

You really are a compendium of Haredi cliches, but you're too deeply submerged to see it.

Posted by: מרדכי סטמר

I'm happy to see that you are starting to get my point!

Oh, we know your point =/:

"Us, us, us! We will procreate you to death!. The defense of the State of Israel by us be damned because some old Toriah said so!. We will never serve!. Let other die for us!. We will not be integrated on Jewish society!. Leave us alone, but conform to our extremist ways!."

(Ben yehudah,I'm not done... Stay tuned....)

Oh please do, we need the chuckles.

Posted by: מרדכי סטמר

If the terrorist and the world would of known that Judaism and zionism does NOT have anything in common

You gotta be be kidding, or reading your news from an extremist Chareidi Toirah =/

The terrorists wouldn't want to "send a message" to the world Jews by attacking a Chabad house or a synagogue in Tunisia!

No, you are a looney, and you are reading an extremist Chareidi Toirah for your world views >.<

I'm starting to feel like I'm sitting in a sand box!

No logical response!none!

Did the terrorist want to send a signal for jews worldwide?
Yes!
So why didn't they attacked a mormon church, Instead of a jewish religious institution?

Only because they think jewish religion and zionism are the same.

And the religious zionists are only helping them to think so!

We (Eidah,Satmar) are not capable with just limited influence to get to every corner of the world with our message.
And this is why Neturei Karta is doing crazy stuff, because in their mind, its worth to be seen as crazies if only the message will be heard louder thanks to the coverage they will get.
(as I explained with the mainstream environmentalist and the greenpeace fanatics)

I'm happy to see that you are starting to get my point!

Oh, we know your point =/:


"Us, us, us! We will procreate you to death!. The defense of the State of Israel by us be damned because some old Toriah said so!. We will never serve!. Let other die for us!. We will not be integrated on Jewish society!. Leave us alone, but conform to our extremist ways!."


No Bob! You did NOT get my point! Not what I'm reading from your post.


Israeli society is NOT afraid of Satmar,Eidah because they know that we are not interested to have any say in the government whatsoever.
Heck, we are not even participating in the elections!

From whom they are REALY afraid is the Mizrachi who was founded for the sole purpose of making sure that the eventual state that will be founded, should be runned by Rabbanim and the laws of the sate should be the Toirah laws!

And that's why the founders gave in to pressure from the Mizrachi to establish the Rabbinat! So now they have to deal with "them" when it comes to chupah kedishin, Ethiopian jews,(I should of commented on the news about the claims of the Ethiopian "Rabbis) etc.

And the Agudah- who totally thru out their founding principals( to fight Mizrachi)
As documented in the book מ'קוטוביץ עד ה' אייר-
After ww2 and decided that there's money to be made so they joined Mizrachi,

So now the Israeli society have to deal with the monster they themselves helped create!


Again! we Satmar ,Eidah are not those who they (you) are afraid even if we multiply a million times! We will never affect the fabric or the nature of the general public,
We don't even care if you recognize the reform movement or the Ethiopian Jews to be able to get rabbinical positions and salaries.....

We just ask that the zionists should take care of their mess that they created, by themselves!

They thought that by establishing a state before the Moshiach comes, it will "protect" the jewish people,
But instead as it turns out , zionism IS what endangers jews around the world!


Plus, it would help if Shmaryah can post the many sermons and toirahs were the Satmar Rabbi used to cry over the IDF lives lost in the -unnecessary -wars.
So you can see that he did in fact care for every single jewish life!
And he wasn't what you are trying to portray him

Plus, it would help if Shmaryah can post the many sermons and toirahs were the Satmar Rabbi used to cry over the IDF lives lost in the -unnecessary -wars.

So you can see that he did in fact care for every single jewish life!

That's interesting, because I was told not long ago, by a young Satmar, that a secular Jew isn't, in fact, a Jew, because he doesn't take upon himself the yoke of the mitzvot. He also went on to tell me I'd go to hell for not performing them, even though he'd just told me I wasn't a Jew, and therefore, by his reasoning, wasn't obligated to perform them. When I pointed out his circular argument, I didn't, of course, get anything remotely resembling a straight answer.

My point is that he wasn't pulling this out of nowhere. He was a fine, upstanding product of your educational system, and was merely parroting what his teachers and rabbonim had told him.

So you'll understand that I'm skeptical about your claims for the Satmar Rov.

Jeff:

That's why I said it would be a great help, if people would only know who the Satmar Rabbi REALY was, and for what he REALY stood for.

Secondly,
Satmar teaches their students ONLY what's in the Shilchan Urich!
If you want to know what's the halacha of a secular jew? Then you only need to look it up in Shilchan Urich,
And automatically you will know what Satmar's position is.

As far I know,
Each and every jew is obliged to follow ALL halachah's.
If he didn't,couldn't or wouldn't he can always do Teshuvah

Posted by: מרדכי סטמר | January 26, 2012 at 11:55 AM

Well, as I said - that's not what I was told, and the kid wasn't pulling it out of thin air.

Concerning the Satmar Rov and the secular guy who saved his life - I've read what you've said, and I've read what Shmarya has said.

I'll stick with Shmarya.

Posted by: Jeff | January 26, 2012 at 01:26 PM


You were fair enough to mention that the "kid" wasn't- at best- articulate and you didn't get from him a straight answer.

Plus, how can he say that a "secular jew" isn't factually a jew , at the time when this secular was brought into this world by jewish parents?


"You" can take Shmaryah's word if so is your will,desire or agenda.

But Satmar Rov was there! It wasn't history to him!

He was- to some extent- involved with the "ORTODOX" rescue effort before it was hijacked by the zionists and torpedoed!

And please don't give me this lazy excuse that he wasn't going to acknowledge him because he was a secular jew.

When in fact he was never in the missionary business like Chabad, he always spoke or dealt with seculars without any problem!

His only goal and mission was rebuilding the "inside".
Meaning that anyone who IS- or wants to be- an orthodox jew ,should have the proper guidance!

Previous post was mine....

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