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January 12, 2012

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rebeljew

I'll take a crack at the Waiting 4 Moshiach version.

How can the magazine encourage us to get jobs.? Our job is not having jobs. If we have jobs, then we won't be doing our job of not having a job. If we have jobs, we might have money, and spend it. Of course, if people are left with choices (Chas v'Chalila) they might buy things that they enjoy. How can we tolerate this in our communities? Jobs, choices and money are assur because our grandparents did not have them.

How can they question the word of the gadol? When I speak, I expect everyone to listen unquestioningly, understanding that I know better and care more than they do about their personal affairs.

ruthie

1. gefilte fish....OF COURSE THERE ARE jewish people asking for money all the time. i was just mentioning that a lot of gypsies are outside of the kosher supermarkets. that's all
2. A. Nuran- let's get something straight here....i do not discriminate.....at.all.
i would give to the gypsies but do not like that they impersonate jews with chants of "shabbos, shabbos"
c'mon
apples and oranges

Ben Levi

So it seems from this article that a "news" correspondent asserted that there the reason that Mishpocha was banned wass because it tells Chareidim to get Jobs.
And people on this board take the "correspondents" word as fact.
Kinda stupid.

A. Nuran

Ruthie, why the racism for the Romany?

Gefilte Fish

Ruthie,

Are there no Jewish beggars? Then who are all those people in the shuls worldwide? Who are all those people by every Jewish holy place in Israel?

I know people in Israel who had to put locking gates around their homes because of the never-ending parade of shnorrers. The only time they had any peace and quiet was Friday night until motzaei Shabbat. Then the parade started again.

ruthie

well, all the beggers in front of the kosher stores...are not even jewish. they're gypsies.
just go up to one and ask them to say the shema.
just ask.
well, there is one man who may be jewish.
i have no problem giving to gypsies but don't make believe you're a jew.

Gefilte Fish

The chareidim who really crack me up are the ones who refuse to work or to learn secular subjects, yet assert that, should they choose to work or to learn secular subjects, they (by virtue of sitting on their frum tucheses all day) would undoubtedly be infinitely better than those among us who have been working all our lives or those among us who have their CPA, PhD, MD, etc.

jancsipista

Yoel Mechanic- sure its possible but unlikely
there are thousands i know of one who comes here for 30 years collects for himself he plays the stock market tells me in israel lost 70 thousand unbelievable stories and they are true one of the know rabbis here in lawrence long island that send him to super rich megamillionaires he told me

D

They don't work, because he rebbes teach them not to work. Since the, at least in Israel, the state allows them to opt out of secular education (reading, writing and arithmetic) after the eighth grade, I imagine that many of them are unable to work because they are without the educational tools necessary to hold down a job outside their shetl.

Yoel Mechanic

they have money to spend thousands to come to usa thats how lucritive this schnorring buisness is.

Posted by: jancsipista | January 12, 2012 at 10:59 AM
-----------------------------

Is it possible he was collecting on behalf of someone else?

Gevezener Chusid

you people dont understand once they start working they wont worship the rebbes they will start worshipping the almighty dollar ...


Ain't nobody who worships the almighty dollar more than the rebbes!

Yaakov

I suspect the halachic injunction against non-Jews learning Torah is not because they "can't" but rather, b'davka, because they can.

Can't let them in on the "secrets".

jancsipista

Waiting4Moshiac- right you are only someone like you who can learn toireh can become so dummn in such a short time, man youre dummn or maybee youre faking stupidity.

Hal

If you are larning in yeshiva or kollel you are working Waiting4Moshiach I'll bet you didn't think of that on your own. I'll be you got the same brainwashing that I did. I'll bet it came from a rabbi who lives off of the community.

Josh

What do these haredim think when they encounter people Yochanan HaSandlar, or the many other tannaim and amoraim -- presumably the heros of haredidom --- who worked in various occupations to support themselves? Does the plain peshat somehow elude them?

Maybe, just maybe, there was no system in place then and there that would allow you to learn and get paid? Think about it.

There is an expression that one may even find on car bumper stickers that says I owe, I owe, so its off to work I go.

Also, why is it almost universal that when one wins the lottery the very first thing one does is quit one's job?

Along that same vein we have the initialism TGIF. Face it, work is not all its cracked up to be. It is by most a necessary evil and is many people's dream to not have to do it (retirement?).

While learning hours a day may not be my cup of tea, to some it is (I assume) pure enjoyment, so lucky them if they can reduce their income requirement, or find a benefactor, to allow them to live their dream.

As for me, when I retire, I would love to live near a university and take, without credit, college courses. So in a sense I dream the kollel lifestyle without the kollel.

Waiting4Moshiach

There are different kinds of work. One man cuts a diamond. Another does deals on wall street. And another learns. If you are larning in yeshiva or kollel you are working, no matter who is paying you the kehila or the state with welfare. Learning is your job and maybe it is the most important one we Yidden can do. After all anyone can be a doctor or a lawyer but only we can learn torah.

jancsipista

A E ANDERSON-haha youre fantastic i tought i am the only one who knows the second meaning of gedoilem in heder i used to always ask my rebbi rebbe meg ih gayn gedoilom:) this was in a european shtettel i see anderson youre my contemporary i tought and also how we grew up excellent article i always ask myself why do they need the gedoilem to tell them what is ok and whats not i came to conclussion that they delude their rebbis to mater permit themselfs to fraud and thievery what i mean is they both the rebbi and the people that they are fakes so they reinforce each others ego to go and steal or whatever crookedness they are up yo.

A E ANDERSON | Auckland, New Zealand

Why does one need a mental case like Eliyahiv to determine whether earning a living is kosher?

Can't they read the Rambam?

What do these haredim think when they encounter people Yochanan HaSandlar, or the many other tannaim and amoraim -- presumably the heros of haredidom --- who worked in various occupations to support themselves? Does the plain peshat somehow elude them?

And how could any "halakhic authority" overcome these clear references to work as a laudatory and necessary behaviour on the part of even saintly and scholarly Jews?

I think it's clear that people like Eliyahiv are either mentally unbalanced or simply full of shit. Any so-called "gadol" who says its religiously preferable to scam the government or rely on public charity rather than support oneself by labour or other occupation, violates the letter and spirit of the entire corpus of rabbinic literature that they pretend to embody.

Why so many people people have become lemmings and blindly follow these disingenuous idiots who hold themselves out to be gedoyim, is beyond comprehension. Of course, "gedoylim" has that secondary, child's meaning, of "Number Two" or bowel movement!

It seems to me (and I suspect I will take much shit for this) that we are witnessing in the haredi world a mass psychosis not unlike the mass psychosis that overcame the German volk during the war years.

Josh

this israeli schnorrer was actuaqlly a multimillionaire

I had no idea that going door to door collecting charity was so lucrative. This could be what we have all been looking for. A way for the haredim to make a living - and a good one at that! The yeshivas and kollel should give a course in the fine art of schnorring. Sounds like this Israeli gentleman should head the program.

jancsipista

Hal-haha i had that experience also,about 30 years ago this hassidishe holcaust survivor used to come to our door he lived in israel but once a year he came here to usa to schnorr a friend of ours just happened to be here when he came collecting he told us that this israeli schnorrer was actuaqlly a multimillionaire in israel we couldnt beleive it until another guy who knows him from israel confirmed it,he had one arm missing and he took atvantage of people pitying him, they have money to spend thousands to come to usa thats how lucritive this schnorring buisness is.

Hal

I tried reading this article but was interrupted by a knock at the front door. Man in beard and black suit wanted money for his yeshiva in Israel.

Betzalel

jancsipista,

What's there not to understand? The name Quaker comes from the translation of Isaiah 66:2. So Quakers are Haredim, just not Jewish Haredim.

Josh

the gedoilim rebbis deluded the younger generation for their own egos they dont give a dammn what happens to them afterward they the rebbis only care about their god like status

I don't know if it is as sinister as that. Maybe they actually believe what they preach and truly believe that g-d will help.

You are talking about the gedolim. It is not hard to believe that there are some people who actually believe so it is not far fetched to believe that the gedolim are members of this set of people.

jancsipista

Betzalel- what you just wrote is absolutly meaningless its tottal gibberish

Betzalel

I graduated from a Haredi high school. It was part of the curiculum there that we had to clean up the campus every day. They said, "Nobody is above work here."

It was Haredi but it wasn't Jewish Haredi. It was a Quaker school. The name Quaker comes from the translation of Isaiah 66:2 which uses the Hebrew word "hared".

jancsipista

Josh- There is time in life when they will have to wake up from their dream of eutopia learning and not working and when that time arrives its guaranteed it will be very very traumatic for those who are not educated enough to go out into the world and work to support their family,the gedoilim rebbis deluded the younger generation for their own egos they dont give a dammn what happens to them afterward they the rebbis only care about their god like status, what a cruel world this is

Josh

you people dont understand once they start working they wont worship the rebbes they will start worshipping the almighty dollar and all sort of enjoynment will open their eyes to reality and this cannot be allowed

I am not sure about that. I thought that the kollel system was being supported by working and especially the wealthy haredim. Again, this was my presumption, unless they are being funded by the seculars as well!

No matter how you look at it, it will collapse under its own weight since even the lower paid haredim will need help to make ends meet with high tuition costs and large family sizes. There simply wont be enough money to go around.

danny

"Maran Posek HaDor HaGaon HaRav Yosef Sholom Elyashiv Shlita"

Simply idol worship!

jancsipista

you people dont understand once they start working they wont worship the rebbes they will start worshipping the almighty dollar and all sort of enjoynment will open their eyes to reality and this cannot be allowed,while in kollel or not working they are nypnotized to worship the rebbe the more worshippers the rebbe has the merrier for his self agrandizing ego.

Malka Gittel

Working for a living. Not believing in the infallibility of your rebbe. What shanda will these evil journalists at Mishpacha spout next? No self-respecting Jew should believe such scandalous words.

ruthie

gevesner chosid and yaakov,
excellent.
that's what i was trying to write.
thank you

Bas Melech

My friends with children "in learning" still buy Mishpacha and will continue. What else will they read on Shabbos? not books on the NY Times bestseller list.

Bas Melech

Yaakov | January 12, 2012 at 07:35 AM
SkepticaYid | January 12, 2012 at 07:54 AM

So true. The kollel system is imploding.

Lo Kedarkah

@SkepticalYid
Wow. Genetic engineering of the Jewish People by it's Pharisee class conducting an internecine project to rid itself of balei batim (who are, of course the exogamous male threat on a primate level) by a direct approach to the fathers of prospective mates. Fascinating to hear that daf yomi is now a mark of decadence in the eyes of these rashei yeshivot.

Shoshi

Well, the MO girls in Bet Shemesh aren't likely to grow up to marry Charedi men.

However, if they see those girls as potential wives/daughters-in-law, it explains their concern with the girls' tzniut.

SkepticaYid

Yaakov, you couldn't have said it any better! The kollel system is inevitably going to collapse. The yerushas are being diluted by generational demographics. In the last few years, it's become common for a Rosh Yeshiva to target MO girls' schools in order to convince them to marry full-time learners. They know that there isn't enough money left in their own communities to sustain their parasitic lifestyle. They even go so far as to tell these impressionable young women to avoid a boy who's Daf Yomi be cause he has no yiras shamayim, and is sullied by gashmiyus.

Yaakov

Gevezener Chusid:

I generally agree with you. I think the kollel system is a shanda. The truth is, it is poised for collapse. As the wealthy zaydes disappear and the yungerleit, with no skills and no prospects find their stipend gone, we'll see a forced change.

It's simply not sustainable. Frumkeit by proxy is a failed idea, and the well meaning older generation did a great disservice to their progeny. They knew how to work hard, and they did. Then they got religion, and their children fulfilled their obligation. The Yissachar-Zevulun system only works when you value Zevulun as much as Yissachar.

Worse yet is the Beis Yaakov system teaching the girls that it is the glory of the Jewish woman to take care of both the house and the household income, while producing as many babies as possibile. So destructive.

Yaakov

Yochanan Lavie:

Ouch. ☺

Lo Kedarkah

Have just reread the article. These guys are talking gibberish and naarishkeit and amaratzus. What a nonsense to suggest that verifying a signature is an act which puts doubts in the minds of believers. exactly the opposite is true. If I've heard the rumours about the Rav's signature being forged then so have they. So they are full of nonsense and it shows.
Like I and many others have repeatedly claimed, the world of bnei Torah has been hijacked by ignorant egotistical corrupt power-hungry bullies who think they can hide in the underpants of a man they insist is the gadol hador. R. Elyashiv doesn't even seem to understand which dor he is in, let alone have anything to say of relevance to the generation. Imagine asking a Posek in pre-war Europe the following shailah: is it permitted to spend some of the day gainfully employed in a job that will feed my family?

Gevezener Chusid

I don't have any problem with Torah scholars who are indeed scholars sitting and kvetching der bank all day long, as long as they are also teaching, paskening shaylos, and functioning as rabbis in the community, and paid by the community who wants them thus to function. They would then be equivalent to university professors.

I DO have a BIG problem with leydik-geyers who do nothing useful in or outside of the yeshiva, with the Kollel system in general, and with anybody taking food stamps, etc., because they are not working. (I have a different opinion about food stamps for people who work but don't earn enough to live on in this economy, or for people who have lost their jobs or are physically disabled.

I think the only way that the government could clear up "entitlement" abuse is to do away completely with "entitlements" and then try to re-start the system. Dream on.

Some communities have disproportionate political power.

Jews, for example, are represented in government (especially in the judiciary and in appointed offices) far beyond our proportion, and the US spends much more on Israel than most Americans think it should. Jews tend to vote, and that's what matters.

Problem with the frummies in the US is that they ALL vote (they do NOT necessarily vote in a block, nor do the rabbis tell them whom to vote for, and husbands and wives do not always even vote for the same people - I have seen statements to the contrary here, and from my own experience, they are inaccurate. In my former community, for example, on the shabbos before election day, someone would get up on the bima to remind everyone of the importance of voting. End of discussion. Never did the Rebbe or anyone else suggest whom we should vote for.)

The fact that their turnout is so much higher than anyone else's makes the politicians bend over backwards for them way out of proportion to their real numbers. What counts is how many active voters there are in a population, not how many people there are there.

I digress. But it's all good.

Josh

Mishpacha Magazine Banned Because It Encouraged Haredim To Get Jobs

or maybe because

making it seem as if the word of the gadol is not final and unquestionable

I wonder which one would get you banned by rev Elyashiv?

Yochanan Lavie

Rav Elyashiv wants to ban the Book of Job from the biblical canon.

Yaakov

SkepticalYid:

I guess it can't be "wacky as a pancake" on account of ain kemach.

ruthie

i knew a wonderful woman once.
her son became a ph.d in economics.
she was all for education or learning a profession...
as i was growing up, often i would hear her say...
EVEN IF YOU WASH WINDOWS, I WILL RESPECT YOU
one must work.
doesn't it say that in pirkos avot?
here in monsey, there are thousands of men...walking around all day, in the supermarkets, on the streets....not even thinking about working...but they're collecting food stamps...etc. and, honestly, they're well protected to continue this....it's called bloc voting.
whatever....of course, there are some that work, that really do need social services the rest are all a piece of shit.
how about the woman, well known in the super haredi crowd. medicaid needed to ask her son something. she flew him from his studies in israel for one or two days, brought him to social services, they took his picture, whatever, then back to israel.
DO YOU KNOW HOW MUCH A TICKET FOR ONE OR TWO DAYS ON SUDDEN NOTICE COSTS? AND HIS MOM AND SISTERS WEAR SOME MIGHTY FIND CLOTHES.
pieces of shit.
i wish they were good examples...you want to be frum? then BE A MENSCH

norm

The aversion to work has gotten so bad that I heard that some of the gadols banned blowjobs.

SkepticaYid

It's a shamanistic cult , that much is clear. It boggles the mind, though, to ban a magazine that encourages men to work for a living. They're quite selective in their reading of gemarah. How easily they ignore: Im ain kemach, ain Torah.

Yaakov

Lo Kedarkah:

OK, I can see that. It's wacky as a pancake, though.

Lo Kedarkah

Yaakov:
I agree with you.
My thesis was merely an attempt to comprehend their perverted attitude, and to surmise what they might argue if challenged. It's bewildering to think how we got to this point. Maybe the deification of certain Rebbes in the chassidic world spilled into the litvishe world. Hashem y'rachem.

centrist

It boggles the mind that an offshoot of the Temple Cult could so confuse the meaning of "kodesh hakodoshim" as to apply it to this case.

They're "confusing" it on purpose to try to solidify their political base.

Yaakov

Lo Kedarkah:

The problem I have with your thesis is that Moshe Rabbeinu is held as unique among the neviim, save possibly Baalam. The lesser prophets interpreted trance state visions (according to the Rambam) while God "spoke with Moshe's throat" (according to the Zohar and Luria).

I don't know that there can ever be, in what I understood to be normative orthodox Judaism, a claim of infallibility save the corporate action of the Sanhedrin while in session, which is claimed to be with siata d'shmaya.

It boggles the mind that an offshoot of the Temple Cult could so confuse the meaning of "kodesh hakodoshim" as to apply it to this case.

Lo Kedarkah

@Yaakov:
Because he stands in locus Mosaicus in relation to the people. Peh el peh with Upstairs and uttering the Logos Itself.
Except he's not a navi - so if they are claiming that of any living leader (since Malachi) they have a big problem.

David

I keep having to say it.... Just when you think the Charedim can't possibly go any lower, they manage to do so....

Yaakov

Now, the weekly is challenging the holiest of the holies, that the word of the gadol is not final and unquestionable, and this is what is going on today.

Kodesh haKadoshim?! This language is incredible. Where do we get this? What is the foundation for this bizarre new religion where the words of a man are the holy of holies?

It appears we now have a Pope in Judaism who can speak ex cathedra. I knew that daas Torah was a tenant of charedi nonsense but I would never have believed that someone could use that language about it.

The word of Rav Eliyashiv is equivalent to the most sacred part of the Temple? Unbelievable.

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