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January 31, 2012

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Jeff

I think they will have to answer for this.

Posted by: yosef | February 03, 2012 at 12:10 AM

And what about all of the child rapists in your world and the holy gedolim who protect them? Will they have to "answer" for that?

Shmarya

Well, I realize you're a very dull crayon in a box of dull crayons, but do try to get your tiny little homophobic mind to process.

All empires and societies ebb and flow.

You might notice that Judah collapsed. So did ancient Israel.

What tends to destroy empires and societies are really, really stupid ideologues and fundamentalists, like the Jewish ones who forced the revolt against Rome to happen in the first century CE, for example. Their tiny little bigoted minds worked a lot like your tiny little bigoted mind.

And the sad thing for the rest of us is that morons like that – like you – are too arrogant, too stupid and too mentally ill to figure out how arrogant, stupid, mentally ill they are until it's far, far too late to do fix what they've broken.

Idiot.

yosef

There is no question that we are on the road to Sodom and Gemmorah.

In countries like those in the societies of the ancient cannanites and Egyptians this was acceptable.

They were eventually wiped out.

The JP is actually supporting making sodmoy acceptable.

I think they will have to answer for this.

adams

Litvish, if I understand the Torah says not to lay with a man as with a woman, but how it could be anyway? it's ambiguous.

the implication is anal sex then called a Toevah. But then by implication, hetero anal sex would also be a toevah,
yet we don't prejudice those persons,
the whole thing is really unclear,

In addition, the purpose when the Torah says as with a woman is implied to make children, also not possible.

Repressing people is much worse than whatever the unclear verses say.

It is who people are, and in past 50 years or so,
it is more acceptable to be opening gay.

Just as many other behaviors are more acceptable so too this.

Certainly the time has come to stop repressing people for who they are.

If one were able, that is if one were bi, they can embrace that choice, but those not cannot.

Litvish

Wow.

They printed the online comment mentioned above.

The times they are a changin'!

I will now read and support the Jewish Press because it finally has the courage to support the entire Jewish community and not just a select few.

Litvish

I have had two comments published on the comments section of the JP over the last two days.

They haven't censored any of my posts.

I have a long one that I wrote today which explains the psak of a major godol from Lakewood several years ago in which he stated unequivocally that:

Homosexuality, per se, is not prohibited by Torah.

Homosexual sex, with the exception of sodomy which a man and woman can also do, is not prohibited.

I will be interested to see if they publish it.

I use the name of the godol who told me this. He was nifter several years ago and extremely supportive of gay men like me in the community.

Jeff

she's one of those people who always wins.

Posted by: adam hasheni | February 02, 2012 at 10:19 AM

It seems to be very important to her.

BS

Chaim levin was born to a
GAY Mother
It's not his fault

adam hasheni

Jeff and Abracadabra -

I've encountered that Lisa before...she actually had me banned from a forum that wasn't specifically Jew-related because I called her out on her lies. Didn't matter that everyone on the forum hated her...she's one of those people who always wins. Seems the only way to deal with her is to not acknowledge that she exists...she's living enough double lives that she has trouble dealing with the fact that not everyone thinks like she does.

pink soap

there are many types of trees in the forest. I love my dog.

I know you will not post it but i will write anyway

this issue of gays is not a jewish issue
and i dont get the JP jumping in to it.
this is america and as a free country each individual can live his life as he wishes.
but no one has the right to make up stories and deliver it as facts.
the JP should of done a bit more Investigative journalism (Investigative journalism is a form of journalism in which reporters deeply investigate a single topic of interest, often involving crime, political corruption, or corporate wrongdoing. An investigative journalist may spend months or years researching and preparing a report. Investigative journalism is a primary source of information.[1][2][3][4] Most investigative journalism is done by newspapers, wire services and freelance journalists. Practitioners sometimes use the terms "watchdog journalism" or "accountability reporting.") and look in to the facts.
NOT ONE RESIDENT OF CROWN HEIGHTS EVER EVER BULLIED or did ANYTHING TO OFFEND GAYS.
this is the fact.

Good Day
and i know you are not going to publish it anyway.
this site will only post coments against CHABAD or JEWS
and The Publisher of this blog knows full well about this case of "chaim Levin"
how was only bullied by his brothers and sisters and evicted from his house by his parents.

Jeff

Oh, and she's just chock full of opinions regarding male homosexuality, isn't she? Meanwhile, she gets to have her partner and a child, and heaven in the sweet by-and-by. Isn't it great how that worked out for her?

If this weren't a public venue, I'd be using stronger language.

Jeff

The JP was never my favorite paper, but they are certainly doing a good thing for Orthodoxy in this case by jumping into this fire.

OK, I'll accept that.

Re: Lisa - you're right, she's thoroughly obnoxious. This is the first time I've ever had any sort of exchange with her. In responding to someone else, I expressed the opinion that "to acknowledge that one is inherently gay, but at the same time to hold to a belief that God prohibits homosexual behavior and therefore requires one to live a life of celibacy and loneliness, and to believe that one will never know the reason until after one dies, is cognitive dissonance." Of course, she had to get in her two cents. I told her I wouldn't be drawn into her drama; she replied with "No, Jeffrey, you’d rather hurt Jews who are trying to maintain their frumkeit with your negativity.". She's insufferable; I don't understand why other people allow her on their blogs.

Ech, that entire thread is an illustration of the Stockholm Syndrome that permeates their world. They may be happier than I am, but I want no part of it.

Abracadabra

Jeff, I hear you about ALL of it.

The JP was never my favorite paper, but they are certainly doing a good thing for Orthodoxy in this case by jumping into this fire.

I'm surprised that they deleted your comment, because they let a lot of stuff go through.

And it's very sad to read some of the comments there - people struggling and being told they are sinners and trying to change.

I agree that Orthodoxy is doomed. Mindless Charedism is taking over.

The commenter you refer to is obnoxious on the blogs. I can't stand her. Her obnoxiousness and combatitiveness are exhausting, and her overzealousness and self-righteousness is sickening. The worst and saddest part is it repels many in her own club (Frum gays and lesbians.) She's on some "holy halachic mission" but isn't even educated with all the facts. I have never met anyone as pigheaded and narrowminded (and socially inept for that matter). I, too, have argued with her about the ridiculousness of claiming homosexuality is halachically permissable for women, while throwing men under the bus. What a crock.

Btw - ask Shmarya for my email address and drop me an email - I have some other info that I think you'll find interesting.

__

@KJ

That doesn't look like actual change in orientation at all. Nothing the likes of NARTH and JONAH provide as "proof" shows that homosexuals can successfully turn heterosexual.

dh

Well, I'm in California and at this very moment I am stoned... and I find this all riveting.

adams

Possibly the frum hold such a severe view is in general they don't encourage much sex in the first place, straight or gay.

In their infantile views, they imagine all gays do nothing but have sex all day long.

This goes against a certain mantra in the frumma world, not to enjoy too much, because then lack of Torah study, etc. but it's a sham because certain activities are totally mutar, i.e. business, etc.

It's a mind fuck.

On a practical level I would say that frumma are uncomfortable about this. Similar to some other communities.

It's very difficult for a gay man to be 'out' and I have tremendous respect for those who are, especially frumma. although I would imagine that a chardiedishe gay man would never come out.

I can't imagine the sort of courage needed for any frumma to come out to their families and community knowing how low their community considered them.

I myself am unable to 'come out' regarding my preference for Cannabis, it seems a very similar prejudice and repression of people, with the legality issue making it less easy to come out than if it were legal. still even if I was in a medical state I don't know if I would mention that I don't want to drink booze at a kiddush but would have a weed brownie instead.

I am curious how that plays in the states of California and COlorado.

This fellow once told me that at the time i was drinking and had a vodka at this house and i asked for ice as I didn't like vodka. He said the Chabadish don't put ice in drinks so as not to 'enjoy it too much' maybe he was just joing but I think that
this does evoke the reality, this being in everyone's business all the time.

dh

Well, when one is so busy judging others it leaves no time to judge oneself. Sigh... so much judgment, so little time. That's an enormous benefit to being judgmental.

Litvish

dh

Thanks for your very kind and supportive words.

I became frum when I was 20 because I wanted to have meaning in my life and be part of a real community. That was 43 years ago.

Soon it became obvious that the price to be accepted in this community was to deny the part of me that needs a loving, intimate relationship with another person, in my case another man.

I struggled with this for several very miserable years. Now that I look back I can't comprehend how isolated and intimidated I must have felt to believe that I needed these ignorant people and a community that would only "love" me if I dropped being me.

Now it seems so obvious but it wasn't then.

When you don't believe in yourself and feel empty then you are capable of doing the most self-destructive things as I found out.

Embracing a community that hated who I was was one of the most self-destructive things I have ever done. Now I understand why so many people in this community are filled with so much fear, loathing, hate and judgement of themselves and others.

dh

Litvish, you have wisdom and you have peace. That must aggravate a lot of evangelicals. Let me guess who they are...

Litvish

To all those who say being gay is a choice, I ask:

At what point did you realize that you are NOT gay?

For me, I have always known that I am attracted to other men. I never realized that this was not the norm until I heard others bashing such a derekh.

I love the man with whom I have lived for 26 years and can't imagine me sharing my life with anyone else.

I really don't care what others say is right or wrong for me.

I know how hashem made me and that is fine for me.

There are many, many types of trees in the forest.

None of the are mistakes, none of them are better than others. All are made in the image and likeness of our Creator.

Gevezener Chusid

Homosexuality may or may not be a free choice, but religion is, and I am SO glad I have chosen the exit door.

Gevezener Chusid

Bravo to the Jewish Press.

KJ

@Yosef

Your propaganda didn't convince anyone at BoxTurtleBulletin, so why do you think it will here?

Posted by: _ | February 01, 2012 at 01:54 PM

Sounded legit to me. I see no reason to believe that once gay always gay. There can be legit hormonal or psychological reasons for either be attracted to men or to be repelled by women. I could see an overbearing mother resulting in fear of women as being one example.

Here is a quote

... "It turns out that I didn't have the faintest idea what love was," he says. That's not all he didn't know. He also didn't know that his same-sex attraction, far from being inborn and inescapable, was a thirst for the love that he had not received from his father, a cold and distant man prone to angry outbursts, coupled with a fear of women kindled by his intrusive and overbearing mother, all of which added up to a man who wanted to have sex with other men just so he could get some male attention. He didn't understand any of this, he tells me, until he found a reparative therapist whom he consulted by phone for nearly 10 years, attended weekend workshops, and learned how to "be a man."

http://motherjones.com/politics/2007/08/gay-choice-science-sexual-identity

Jeff

Posted by: Shame on the JP | February 01, 2012 at 02:20 PM

You're a moron. Nothing more need be said.

Shame on the JP

Shame on the Jewish Press.

They seem to be following their old competitor the Jewish Weak now, in an attempt to be 'progressive' and distinguish themselves from the more frum crowd.

Whether deliberately or unwittingly, they have allowed themselves to be used by the toeivah people for their propaganda. The toeivah lobby tries to evoke sympathy by claiming that some people will hurt themselves if not accepted despite deviant ways. It is an old propaganda ploy.

Would Rabbi Sholom Klass have allowed such toeivah propaganda in the JP? It is a shame that the new generation of the family running the JP with some hired hands fall for this, and, to make it worse, refuses to concede their error and publishes such a defiant editorial.

Hopefully the JP will wake up before they go the way of the Jewish Weak and the backward 'Forward' and become a regular mouthpiece for all types of deviance.

Fleishike Kishke

Yay, Chaim Levin. The Lubavitchers who oppose you most are the ones who find you most attractive.

jnsm

@Waiting4Moshiach

When the "Moshiach" arrives, I will become the next Hashem and force flying pigs to enter your mouth.

_

@Yosef

Your propaganda didn't convince anyone at BoxTurtleBulletin, so why do you think it will here?

yosef

I personally know over 20 formerly gay people who have moved on from having same-sex atraction now they are attracted to the opposite sex.

Three of those 20 are married or engaged.

There are people who put in the work, who wanted to change. For some of them had they given up after a short attempt would not have been successful.

It took 4 years for some – just like the struggle for alcoholism or any other difficult issue.

Those in this position and struggling are not to be condemned only helped.

KJ

KJ,

So what would you do to stop anyone in the frum community from making gay men's lives a mess if someone should find out?

Or are you fine with that?

Posted by: Malka Gittel | February 01, 2012 at 01:15 PM

I am simply stating that contrary to politically correct talk the reality is that there is prejudice "out there" and ,for the moment, play it safe until the climate is better.

I am not making a personal statement, but what I perceive as a statement of fact.

Malka Gittel

KJ,

So what would you do to stop anyone in the frum community from making gay men's lives a mess if someone should find out?

Or are you fine with that?

pink soap

Gay in der erd!

KJ

So, KJ, you admit that a gay man's life is in danger if he lets the fact slip around frumbags? Good to know. Will you help stone him to death or will you privately decry the violence later while blaming him for being "provocative"?

His life is not in danger, but he has nothing to gain and lots to lose if he does "come out of the closet".

The expression to "play it safe" does not necessarily mean life saving. As an example if I would say "Don't tell your boss that you are gay since you may lose your job so play it safe and keep it private - would such an example of the use of that expression.

anuran

So, KJ, you admit that a gay man's life is in danger if he lets the fact slip around frumbags? Good to know. Will you help stone him to death or will you privately decry the violence later while blaming him for being "provocative"?

The only thing you learned from Stalin and Hitler was that it's more fun to be the one with the whip.

Kol Hakovod

Kol Hakovod

the only way to cure this world is to promote
mishkav zochor

this is a great way of life.

but if i like only married women can't you support my group as well ?

No Light

KJ - stop talking shite. Sit down, shut up, and let the grown-ups talk.

Kudos to the JP. Preventing the death of an innocent person is perhaps one of the greatest possible goals in life. I guarantee the JP has saved at least one with that article.

KJ

KJ,
Shut up.
Don't talk about it.
Keep it "on the down low".
If anyone asks, deny it.

Yes, you play it safe!

You are in Bed-Stuy mid week at around 5pm. 9 Africans surround you and ask "You Jew?"

Do you say:

(1) Yes, because maybe they are Ethiopians looking for a 10th to "chap" ah minyan for mincha.

(2)Jesus no! What gives you that idea?

yechi ben levitas

ATERES CHARNA was nearly filled to capacity with thousands of women......this was the meeting place. the clan loyalty of this bunch defies all boundries.

Faggots! They should kill themselves!

yechi ben levitas

to failed messiah.: could you please do a report/article on Thousands,THOUGHANDS of women meet for raising money for smr. in the article i noticed that ALIZA LEWIN IS GIVEN THE honourific of ESQ. ESQ is for a man , certainly women are not esquires. tears were shed when the paedophile son in law's wife the daughter of s m r spoke out how honourable her father is. this meeting took place on jan 29 2012.

sk

The Jewish Press remains the leading defender of traditional Orthodoxy. Unlike its new competitors Hamodia and Yated- it continues to run photos of women. For that alone, this newspaper is to be commended.

Jeff

Jeff - What did you try to write?

The commenters keep offering variations on "God never gives us more to handle than we can", which is one of my favorite pieces of religious bullshit. To one of them, I said, "One of the most ubiquitous rationalizations in the history of religion", to which he replied "And its amazing that you still don’t understand it" - because, naturally, the objective truth of their belief system is plain to see, and only someone who is willfully self-deceptive would fail to see it.

Then someone - it might have been the same guy; I can't remember - said something else, and I said "And that's the other ubiquitous rationalization". That one they deleted. I have to think they left the former only because the nesting format in their commenting system is so convoluted and difficult to follow that they just didn't see it.

To me, it's just another frum rag. Perhaps the editors have a touch more cojones and compassion than some of the others.

I unsubscribed from the thread. People are leaving comments to the effect that they're gay, but accept the divine authority of the Torah and are struggling, they hope one day they'll be able to have fulfilling lives with wives and children, etc.- and other are validating them in their self-denial. It's heartbreaking.

One commenter, Lisa, I used to see on other blogs years ago, when I was reading the J-blogs (this is now the only one I read on a regular basis). Perhaps some of the others here have encountered her; as I recall, she used to hang out on Harry Maryles' blog quite a bit. She's gay and is a BT, and has a combative, aggressive personality. She used to come down on male homosexuality, but female homosexuality got a free pass because it isn't specifically forbidden by the Torah - which was bloody convenient for her - but she seems to have softened somewhat, at least as far as that's concerned. Regarding the "immutable truth" of the Torah, she still has the convert's zeal. Someone said something about the "truth of Torah" and I said "That's a matter of opinion", to which she replied "It isn’t actually a matter of opinion, but we recognize that there are people who don’t realize that it’s true." Of course - "What everyone else believes is bullshit, but what I believe is objectively true." Obnoxious idiot.

There's perhaps a hair's breadth of difference between these people and Haredim; they just have college degrees. They illustrate the move to the Right over the past several decades.

Bottom line - Orthodoxy is unsalvageable.

Mike

Bravo to the Jewish Press-it's the only Jewish paper I would actually read, given the option. This is exactly the kind of thing that needs to be spoken out by the frum media. What really disturbs me is that there were people that were so against the stories message that they threatened to put them out of business. Guess the super frumma just can't handle attacks on their social code like this.

Abracadabra

Jeff - What did you try to write?

Jeff

The Jewish Press won't give in to threats and we won't be silenced.

That's pretty ironic, as they censored one of my comments.

Malka Gittel

W4M - you are so right. Yidden should not torture other Jews, we can drive the goyim insane instead. Much more fun, that.

That IS what you meant, nu?

Malka Gittel

Seems to me that the afflicted ones are the frumma who need to get both a life and a clue (and maybe buy a vowel or two whe they're at it, Mr. Sajak).

Jews used to pride themselves on being in the forefront of knowledge and medicine. The Rambam, they must forget, studied medicine with Muslims to understand what was cutting edge in his time. But the frumma now stick their heads in the sand, fear anything "modern" and yet have the nerve to quote a tzaddik who would sneer at them for refusing to learn and to understand the truth about this now that everyone learns it but them and right wing goyim.

anuran

KJ,
Shut up.
Don't talk about it.
Keep it "on the down low".
If anyone asks, deny it.
If people are bad-mouthing them be the loudest.

You can still be a Jew, just for the love of Our Lord Jesus Christ keep it a shameful secret.

Abracadabra

From a frum point of view ( not that I am but was) the ad for the wedding is ad for a sin.

Seymour - You know I am in agreement with your comments almost all the time, but I disagree with what you wrote above.

The ad for the gay wedding was INTERPRETED by the frum as promoting homosexuality. A wedding is merely a commitment ceremony - where two people announce their commitment to each other in the presence of their friends and relatives. It is no more about sex than it is about commitment, and therefore a homosexual wedding ad is not an "ad for a sin". Furthermore, it was non-religious Jews who placed the ad. Why should the frum community care?

The answer is that the frum were upset about the newspaper publicizing homosexuality altogether, which was what Chaim Levin addressed in the Jewish Press editorial above. The frum do not want the word “homosexual” mentioned, at all, anywhere, in relation to anything Jewish. The want it to cease exist.

In the case of the NJ paper, the frum community weighed in with their advertising dollars, and coerced the newspaper into apologizing. It was not about “sin,” it was about control and coercion. And the frum community won.

dh

Maskil, huh? What I was trying to say, Dude, was that human sexuality is not an "affliction" and neither is being a redhead. Both are merely a way of being and I don't think anyone's sexual preference is any more my business than their hair color. Clear?

BiF

I applaud the Jewish Press - I rarely disagree with their editorial stances even if they whitewashed the Rubashkin debacle. They were right on with Tendler, and in this case they've hit a home run. G-d willing, when Shmarya grows up, maybe he'll be the Jewish Press.

Abracadabra

The place to praise the Jewish Press for printing both the original article, and this editorial, is either at the Jewish Press website, or email the Jewish Press editor at: editor@jewishpress.com

I will write to the editor, and also give my two thumbs up here. I might even go and buy a subscription now! Kudos to the Jewish Press!!

Maskil

First of all, homosexuality is no more an affliction than is red hair.

Posted by: dh | January 31, 2012 at 10:04 PM

Dude, that's just wrong. You need to learn to be more tolerant to people who have different desires than yourself and stop painting them as monsters.

anuran

Whenever you hear the term "political correctness" you can be sure of three things:

1) The speaker doesn't understand the issues
2) The speaker gets most of his opinions pre-digested from Fox, Limbaugh or Mike Wiener
3) The speaker will vigorously deny #1 and #2

dh

First of all, homosexuality is no more an affliction than is red hair. Second of all, the homosexual community does indeed desire to keep it in the bedroom... just not with whom you wish.

KJ

Part of the problem is the misunderstanding propagated by political correctness that it is ok to "come out of the closet". Truth be told that it is not! Especially in the orthodox community. Until "it is safe", it is best that those afflicted with this condition try to keep it in the bedroom.

Who knows when and if homosexuals can be accepted as one would accept a redhead or any other of the difference that commonly occur among people. Until then, "don't ask, don't tell" is the name of the game.

seymour

Posted by: Litvish | January 31, 2012 at 07:59 PM


while i condemn both threats the two cases are not the same.

From a frum point of view ( not that I am but was) the ad for the wedding is ad for a sin.

The article from the JP was talking about a frum Jews who is gay and the issues and pain they face in the frum community.

seymour

two thumbs up for the Jewish press for printing the editorial and going public about the treats and not giving in to the threats

to bad we are unlikely to know who threatened the JP

The article was well written and just discussed the pain one goes through if they are gay.

Like the JP said like it or not there are gays out there that are frum and where born in a frum family

one needs to know how to deal with it for the benefit of all.

No parent wants to lose a son or daughter to suicide.

Keeping one head in the sand will not make it go away



Waiting4Moshiach

Nebech, no Jew should ever torment another Jew. For that, we have the goyim. The real solution is to demand that Hashem send us Moshiach NOW. When Moshiach comes only goyim will suffer from this sickness, and even they will know from our example not to act on their yetzer hora. Until then, we need to marry these confused bachurs to the secular spinsters on the upper west side and at nyu and hunter colleges so that everyone can have a good life even if their yetzer hora tells them other things. When you have enough kids to send to school and mitzvas to obey there is no time for being gay no matter who you are.

Malka Gittel

The complainers haven't hit here yet; it seems unusually slow for them. Guess I'll go practice my Megillot Esther trope for a while, sore throat and all. And yes, Litvish, I know it's not good for my throat but at least I only have one client and no court tomorrow.

Litvish

Well, this is the Jewish Press attempting to do the right thing.

Kol ha kavod.

Unfortunately, this is rare.

The NJ Jewish Standard, Teaneck, NJ, printed a same-sex wedding notice in 2010. This is not a frum paper; it serves the entire Jewish community.

However, the threats and pressure on advertisers ( to yank their hekhserim) from the local bearded wonders resulted in Janoff, the owner, to print an apology and say he would never again print anything like the wedding notice again. He lamented how he hated to offend the frumiks and would never do it again.

The editor was forced to write the apology against her will. The entire staff opposed this interference in their work but, in the end, the frume threats worked.

http://jewishdailyreport.wordpress.com/2010/10/07/nj-jewish-paper-unlikely-to-reverse-decision-in-face-of-orthodox-threats/

Malka Gittel

Good for the JP.

And my mother, may she rest in peace, an old-school journalist, should only visit these complaining asses in their sleep to tell them off about Jews trying to suppress free speech. I can hear her now - may they as well, only louder.

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