How A Rabbinic Ban On Bugs May Have Led To The Creation Of Christianity

“From a Torah perspective, eating a Big Mac or eating a salad with insects in it, the salad is worse,” Rabbi Eliezer Eidlitz, who runs the nonprofit Kosher Information Bureau said. The cost of kosher-grown lettuce is markedly higher than regular lettuce. In late January, Glatt Mart, an RCC-certified supermarket on Pico Boulevard in LA, was selling an ordinary head of romaine lettuce (1 pound, 6 ounces) for $1.19, while a much smaller head of "kosher" romaine (10.3 ounces) was priced at $3.59, seven times as much per ounce.

 

The LA Jewish Journal has an astounding cover story in this week's edition on "kosher" lettuce. The most important quote from this article is this, from Rabbi Eliezer Eidlitz of the Kosher Information Bureau:

“From a Torah perspective, eating a Big Mac or eating a salad with insects in it, the salad is worse,"

What Eidlitz and the article do not make clear is that his statement is true – but only if you assume there is no dairy product in that Big Mac. If there is, Eidlitz's statement is questionable.

And you need one more piece of information to understand why Eidlitz's statement is not really true. The law that makes a tiny bug dwarfed by volumes of lettuce especially problematic is called din baria.

Din baria is wholly rabbinic. It is not a Torah law.

Din baria says that a whole bug, no matter how tiny, can never be battled (negated) by the amount of kosher food it is mixed in with. So a whole gnat mixed in with two pounds of kosher food makes all the food non-kosher, unless the gnat is removed.

Normal non-kosher foods are negated by rov, the majority, of the food in the mixture being kosher. In liquids, this needs to be at least 60 parts of kosher against 1 part non-kosher. In solids, a simple majority is enough, counted by the number of pieces, not by weight.

So if you have three pieces of unmarked meat in your house, two of them purchased by you from a reliable kosher butcher, and one of them purchased by a non-Jewish housekeeper from a non-kosher butcher, if you cannot tell which is which, all the pieces are considered kosher. More than that, you must eat all of them – you can't try to be extra pious and throw them all out or give them to a non-Jew. (There is one opinion that you have to eat a piece from each piece of meat at each meal those three pieces of meat are are served at, as well.)

But if a whole bug has fallen in your food and you can't find it to remove it, all the food is non-kosher.

However, if the bug is not whole, normal negation rules apply and in almost every case imaginable, the food is kosher.

The Shulkhan Arukh talks about honey, which in those days often had many bee body parts in it, and rules that honey with those body parts is kosher because the the bees are not whole.

The JJ article quotes from a book Eidlitz wrote and published 13 years ago and from an interview it did with him recently:

“Although eating insects is strictly forbidden by the Torah, we find this concern often overlooked,” Eidlitz writes. In the 1950s and ’60s, Eidlitz said in an interview, when the application of dangerous pesticides, including DDT, ensured that very few bugs could be found on American produce, leading rabbinic authorities gave permission to kosher-observant American Orthodox Jews to “overlook” these laws.

Not anymore. In the last 20 years, Orthodox rabbis in general, and those involved in kosher certification in particular, have been working hard to introduce — reintroduce, they say — practices of checking fresh vegetables for bugs in observance of the laws of kashrut.

How is "kosher" lettuce produced today?

The way all lettuce was produced 30 years ago – by using tons of pesticides, the exact smae chemicals we do not want in our bodies.

But there's a bigger question the JJ missed. How were lettuce and other vegetables produced 200 years ago or 100 years ago? And why is it that we do not find elaborate bug checking regimens in halakhic books from those times – or from any time, for that matter, before this one?

The answer is that the Torah forbids willfully eating bugs, not accidentally eating bugs, and it puts no mor weight on a whole bug than it does on pieces of one.

While din baria is probably about 2000 years old, until the past 20 years or so, Jews ate vegetables without using light-boxes, magnifying glasses, and special washes. They simply looked at the vegetable with their unaided eyes, removed any obvious bugs, and ate it.

And they did this even when many people had very poor eyesight and no access to corrective lenses.

That's because the original halakha was based on what the average person could and would do, using the eyes God gave him, and tiny bugs normally visible only under magnification or with special lighting and vision aides were not part of din baria or any other prohibition, biblical or rabbinic, regarding bugs.

You did the best you could do with the eyes God gave you, and you ate.

But past all this, the Torah certainly would not encourage or endorse consuming produce produced with extremely high amounts of pesticide. Doing so poses potential risk to health. Doing so to fulfill a bizarre understanding of a bizarre rabbinic extension of a biblical law is, quite frankly, not only dangerous, it borders on insanity.

Today's Orthodox and haredi rabbis don't tell  you much (or any) of this because, I think, many of them receive money, directly or indirectly, from kosher supervision companies.

Din baria probably originated with Beit Shammai, the sometimes violent opponents of Hillel and his school, and whose children and grandchildren heavily populated the rank of the Sicarii and other zealots who spurred the war against Rome that led to the Temple's destruction.

A student of one of Hillel's students attacked these rabbis' extremism: "You blind guides!" he said, "You strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!"

That student, fed up with the growing halakhic extremism that dominated Israel from the last few years of Hillel's life until the Destruction, did what many other disgruntled Jews did with regard to the rabbis or to the Temple cult – lthe walked away and formed their own version of Judaism or joined one of the many sects that began at that time.

His sect, known in history as the Jerusalem Church, grew. An offshoot from it – one the student's brother, who was then the sect's leader, opposed – is Christianity.

There are many ways to read the history of din baria. One of those ways is to understand that the religion responsible for so much Jewish death, pain and suffering (which is hopefully all in the past) was born in part because of overreaching and ridiculous bans by rabbis.

At one point in the Beit Hillel / Beit Shammai dispute, rabbis of Beit Shammai murdered rabbis of beit Hillel and used those murders and related violence to take control of rabbinic Judaism. (You can read about that in the Jerusalem Talmud, Shabbat 1:4.)

Rabbis can do incredible good. But they can also do incredible bad.

Perhaps if our rabbis thought about the history of din baria, they would understand that.

[Hat Tip for the LA Jewish Journal article: Ban the Rabbis.]

Comments

[ruthie]

not torah law....

they're crazy and making me crazy...

[ruthie]

i called the israeli embassy today in washington dc.
called the consulate in ny.
ny called back.
i asked them to be nice and gentle when they put the haredim in jail and to let them sit a few hours and then let them go home.
the vice consular is calling me tomorrow.

[danny]

Do people really pay that much more money for chemically bombed lettuce? narishkeit!

[seymour]

I do not agree with the title, is a stretch to say the least

but in general yes.

Interestingly, they never use technology to make something that as assur muttar, or make things easy just harder and crazier

[Sarek]

So I can ignore the cheese on my non-kosher Big Mac now! Great! But God forbid I should accidentally eat a bug in my lettuce.

I suppose they don't know that USDA allows a certain amount of bugs in peanut butter. Wanna ask Jif, Smuckers,Skippy, and a host of store brands about that? (all are OU)

[seymour]

Posted by: Sarek | January 26, 2012 at 04:22 PM

they are not whole anymore

[moshe]

Read the article. All it means is that rabbinic graft trumps common sense or halacha.

[jancsipista]

This is absolute insanity.anyone who buys it is also insane, even to buy holev israel is insane a rip of

[sam]

Hate to agree with you, but you are right – I have been saying this for years! The halacha doe not mandate unusual means of "bug checking". Here is what I do – I grab a head of lattice, rince it under running water and give it a cursory look under normal lighting conditions, that't all. Every time I do that, I feel like I am defending Judaism from these new orthodox reformers.

[Benjamin E.]

Do you have a source for reading about "din baria?" When I first heard about this concept (not reading about it formally in text), I understood it to mean not that the laws of rov and bitul don't apply to bugs, but that the shiur (=minimum forbidden amount) is a single bug. That is, you couldn't say, "Oh, I ate an ant, but it's less than a k'zayit so I'm patur!", presumably because the minimum meaningfully edible unit for insects is one insect rather than a certain volume of food.

I never actually thought about how this would play in to questions of rov, but I assumed that in an analogous case to the unmarked meat question, you could eat all of the heads of lettuce (or whatever).

I could be entirely wrong, of course - does someone have any source references?

[Shmarya]

Posted by: Benjamin E. | January 26, 2012 at 05:07 PM

Shulkhan Arukh Yoreh Dayah. Blackletter law.

[Yoel B]

Jewish Journal website currently down. Hmmm

[netflix]

Eating insects is EIGHT lavim in the torah, a Mcdonalds burger is only one, or two if there is cheeses, so insects are worse.

[Kirly]

Shmarya, you happen to be totally wrong about "kosher" lettuce. Such products are either made by extreme washing, as in the Bodek line of products, or by growing in controlled greenhouses, as in Eden or other brands. Look it up.

[JJJ]

Agree with you in this. Common sense has disappeared.

[Shmarya]

Eating insects is EIGHT lavim in the torah, a Mcdonalds burger is only one, or two if there is cheeses, so insects are worse.

Posted by: netflix | January 26, 2012 at 05:45 PM

That's only when the insects are not battel, negated, by the kosher food.

And you have to work very hard to create a situation where insects are not battel.

That's why din baria is such a bad rabbinic law.

[Shmarya]

hmarya, you happen to be totally wrong about "kosher" lettuce. Such products are either made by extreme washing, as in the Bodek line of products, or by growing in controlled greenhouses, as in Eden or other brands. Look it up.

Posted by: Kirly | January 26, 2012 at 05:50 PM

Actually, I'm not.

If you read the JJ article, you'll see that.

[Litvish]

Eating insects is EIGHT lavim in the torah, a Mcdonalds burger is only one, or two if there is cheeses, so insects are worse.

Posted by: netflix | January 26, 2012 at 05:45 PM
=====

How about Burger King?

If I get a Double Whopper Burger King without Cheese, is that the same level of aveyreh then if I get a Macdonald's without cheese?

Must I search for bugs in the lettuce in the Double Whopper or am I yoytsey by you?

These are burning questions since, reading these comments, I am now craving a burger.

I promise to throw out my Whole Foods organic lettuce if I can have a Double Whopper.

Please.

[Waiting4Moshiach]

My rav poseked last summer that Yidden should not ride bicycles during the warm months or where it is warm always like in Miami, and the reason is the same that we need to be careful with eating things that grow from the dirt. When people ride a bicycle they often do so with their mouth open. Maybe they are smiling, or it could be something innocent like thinking of something you learned that morning that gave joy to your heart. Whatever the cause, when you smile you open your mouth and then if it is warm out a fly or other insect can fly in whole, and you can swallow it. So rather than sin by eating a bug, it is better not to risk the sin and not riding a bicycle. Some say that it is permissible to ride if you wear a face mask that is tightly fited to you face, but this depends on the Rav.

Yidden need to "sweat the details" because they matter. The more careful we are, the more Moshiach will notice, and then he will demand that Hashem send him to us already. And once Moshiach comes, insects will know to avoid our food and stay out of our faces whether we are riding a bicycle or not.

[Jeff]

That's a very interesting deconstruction, Shmarya.

The entire history of religion is like this. That's the reason I can't take any of it seriously any longer.

[Elisheva]

Something no one here has mentioned--Big Macs have lettuce on them, don't they? I don't eat that stuff, but if I remember the jingle correctly, it has both cheese and lettuce. And if the way fast food restaurants treat animals for their meat is any indication, I doubt they're terribly vigilant about getting all of the bugs out of their lettuce.

So yes, this is, as usual, just another way for the rabbis to line their pockets from those who are brainwashed past the point of common sense.

[chaim t]

acc. to the pirush on the gemoroh, the meaning is that they were forced up by threat of death, not that they actually killed them

[mimi]

WTF, insects are everywhere! People eat two pounds a year, accidentally. Maybe this is why they don't do science-it woukld freak them out..

[Confused]

I go to BJ's and buy the large bag of chopped romaine lettuce pre-washed and ready to eat. Good enough for me with a good price to boot.

I don't feel guilty about it what so ever!

[jon]

If they made as much money from Big Macs they would suddenly read "b'chelev" for "bachalav"

[David]

On issues of this sort of kashrus, just follow the money trail...

[netflix]

How about Burger King?

Posted by: Litvish | January 26, 2012 at 05:55
____________________

How was the burger? Hope you enjoyed it.

[abcdef]

"Shmarya, you happen to be totally wrong about "kosher" lettuce. Such products are either made by extreme washing, as in the Bodek line of products, or by growing in controlled greenhouses, as in Eden or other brands. Look it up.

Posted by: Kirly | January 26, 2012 at 05:50 PM"

I was just going to say exactly that- notwithstanding Shmarya's reply or anything in the article.

Furthermore, much of the dole lettuce bags are kosher with a star-k symbol, and are sold for the usual price at places such as Costko where a huge jumbo bag is under $4.

[Shmarya]

Posted by: abcdef | January 26, 2012 at 07:35 PM

I think you need to actually READ the article. If you do, you'll see you're wrong.

[Eva]

My rav poseked last summer that Yidden should not ride bicycles during the warm months or where it is warm always like in Miami, and the reason is the same that we need to be careful with eating things that grow from the dirt. When people ride a bicycle they often do so with their mouth open. Maybe they are smiling, or it could be something innocent like thinking of something you learned that morning that gave joy to your heart. Whatever the cause, when you smile you open your mouth and then if it is warm out a fly or other insect can fly in whole, and you can swallow it. So rather than sin by eating a bug, it is better not to risk the sin and not riding a bicycle. Some say that it is permissible to ride if you wear a face mask that is tightly fited to you face, but this depends on the Rav.

Yidden need to "sweat the details" because they matter. The more careful we are, the more Moshiach will notice, and then he will demand that Hashem send him to us already. And once Moshiach comes, insects will know to avoid our food and stay out of our faces whether we are riding a bicycle or not.

Posted by: Waiting4Moshiach | January 26, 2012 at 06:11 PM

Reading your post gave joy to my heart and I smiled, and a bug flew in my mouth. You are a stumbling block for others and you're making us all sin.

[Korbendallas72]

All I know is that if I do everything my holy rebbe says about kashrut and tznius, I can get away with pretty much anything else... as long as my victim is a lesser Jew or preferably a goy, amirite?

[Shmarya]

acc. to the pirush on the gemoroh, the meaning is that they were forced up by threat of death, not that they actually killed them

Posted by: chaim t | January 26, 2012 at 06:33 PM

No, rocket scientist, ONE pirush written 1700 years after the incident happened says that. Others do not.

[Litvish]

How was the burger? Hope you enjoyed it.

Posted by: netflix
-----

Thanks for asking.

It was fabulous.

The lettuce was also really great, too.

The catsup has an OU so I assume the rest was OK, right?

[netflix]

Ketchup is the equivalent of kosher shechita so you're definitely ok.

[MikalGrass]

W4M -a tightly fitted face mask? You are a genius.

[Steven W]

It more because-we-can kashrut.

I know for a fact that my Bubby did not have a light box in the shtetl in Eastern Europe. They didn't have electricity which is why she burned her arm when a lamp fell over.

When I was little a quince bush we had bore fruit. My Bubby picked it and to my mother's horror, she ate it. How could she possibly know it was safe to eat when it didn't come from the grocery store? Because they used to pick wild fruits and greens in the forests.

In the often brutal existence in Eastern Europe where it was hard to consume enough calories, I am sure the most 'righteous' were more than happy to eat wild raspberries and they didn't cut off the tops of the asparagus.

And bagged lettuce might have a hechsher but still have e. coli.

[You need a therapist]

Shmarya you are an am haaretz, and arrogant one at that. Stick to things your good at without involving talmudic discourse, like bitching.

[Shmarya]

Shmarya you are an am haaretz, and arrogant one at that. Stick to things your good at without involving talmudic discourse, like bitching.

Posted by: You need a therapist | January 26, 2012 at 08:59 PM

I take it this means you can't refute what i wrote and had to resort to attempted character assassination instead.

[You need a therapist]

I can but I have better things to do. I personally also think that there is a lot of over stringency, not of which was ever practiced. But my arguments are not based on a frivolous understanding as your are. For a real defense of eating unchecked vegetables see Eitam Henkin's new book לכם יהיה לאכלה. Your stupid ranting only serves to undermine any valid point you may have. Also it would do you good to understand the other side of the argument. You may disagree and think it is wrong but it has nothing to do with rabbis knowing the truth and lying about for the sake of money. Yes, there may be some 'rabbis' that do that but the overwhelming majority are good people albeit a little misled. Your own experience with chabbad rabbis does not reflect the more civilized ones of most of american orthodoxy.

[Shmarya]

I have plenty of experience with all forms of Orthodox rabbis and you still haven't managed to bring even one fact refute what I wrote.

[Hadasah]

My friend told me how her mother found a rock (which I assume is much bigger than those tiny invisible bugs in a bag of Bodek lettuce. All I have to say is that if it is invisible to the naked eye then it does not count.

[ultra haredi lite]

W4M,
You have me snorting with laughter. Great post: keep up the entertaining shtick.

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

@Waiting4Moshiach - I have two yarmulkas; one for dairy meals and the other for meat meals. Should I have a special set forפסח or can I just use the same yarmulkas that I use year round?

[John Nagle]

If you really want insect-free lettuce, there are automatic sorting machines that can do the job. See Key Technology's "leafy sorting overview", or look up "Fresh Pea Sorting on Manta® 2000 Laser / Camera Sorter".

It's impressive to watch. Lettuce leaves, fruit, and even individual peas (!) are washed, and then go on wide conveyor belts that accelerate them so that they fly through the air for a short distance. While in flight, lasers, cameras, and computers check them over from all sides. Air jets kick the rejects out. This all happens far faster than humans can see it, and you can watch the good stuff and the rejects coming out on separate conveyors. It's so fast that it doesn't slow down production and run up prices.

Some commercial bagged lettuce passes through these machines. It's probably more bug-free than anything examined by hand. It even meets the requirement that every single lettuce leaf be examined.

The religious considerations I leave to others. The technology is available, and it doesn't triple the price.

[Litvish]

And once Moshiach comes, insects will know to avoid our food and stay out of our faces whether we are riding a bicycle or not.

Posted by: Waiting4Moshiach
----

You are so right.

Moshiakh can't come soon enough.

BTW, in the meantime can I have your bicycle?

I'll return it after moshiakh comes.

[R. Wisler]

W4M,
I'm shocked that your rebbe is so m'kool'a'dik! My rosh yeshiva says should not ride a bicycle because the rhythimic pumping of the pedals will lead to desire for pre-pubescent boys and simulates the pumping motion during bee'ah. Females should NEVER ride a bicycle because of the lack of tzin'us. When pumping the pedals, her long skirt may separate and leave her in'yan'im exposed for all the chassidim to look at. I suggest that you listen more closely to your rebbe and don't come spreading your upper-Manhatten distortions of our heilige Toiraw here!

[Confused]

i called the israeli embassy today in washington dc.
called the consulate in ny.
ny called back.
i asked them to be nice and gentle when they put the haredim in jail and to let them sit a few hours and then let them go home.
the vice consular is calling me tomorrow.

Posted by: ruthie | January 26, 2012 at 04:10 PM

I am not quite sure how this is connected with the ban on bugs. Maybe I need to put my thinking hat on again.

Anyway, as long as we are so off topic, here is an interesting story from "Hartford Business.com"

CT judge slaps Hartford for anti-Semitic stance

A Connecticut judge has ruled the city of Hartford cannot use its zoning rules to prevent a sect of Orthodox Jews from using a former church as their place of worship, a case observers say had anti-Semitic overtones.

Superior Court Judge Maria Araujo Kahn recently ordered the city's Zoning Board of Appeals to undo its decision upholding a zoning enforcement officer's initial "cease and desist'' order against Chabad Chevra.

For the full story see http://www.hartfordbusiness.com/news22357.html

[Forty Eighter]

Shmarya, your analytical approach to this is all wrong. There is a well established halachic principle that "that which is not intended is permitted". This principle is used widely with regards to shabbos, for example when it comes to dragging a bench across a grass field without any intention to till the soil is permitted. The same principle applies to eating insects. when someone eats a vegtable, he certainly has no intention of eating the insects, and should therefore be permitted. This should apply even if the insect would be visible. The only condition to this leniency is that the person should not actually see the insect and there needs to be a good probability that the vegetable is insect free.

This argument is much stronger than your, since it even applies to "visible" insects. It is also based on well established halachic principles, which is the applicable criteria.

My personal opinion is that in the old days this argument was not that applicable. Our ancestors were not aware of the multitude of insects that inhabit our vegetables. Therefore, the only time a foodstuff was prohibited was when it was visibly infested (there are even halachic exceptions to infested foods). After the advent of magnification and better understanding of entomology, it became obvious that insects were ubiquitous throught the pland world, the rabbis looked for a logical place to draw the line of permissibility. As technology advanced, the line was moved further and further in the direction of prohibition.

I am waiting for a contemporary rabbi to come out with bold new guidlines regarding these matters that follows a more logical and practicle approach.

[Ruthie]

I called the consulate because I am still upset over the haredi children wearing the yellow stars with the word "Jude" on them.
Very upset.
It steps on the memory of six million.

[geoman]

dont take this the wrong way or as a chalellenge, but as curiosity

What evidence is there that Jesus was a grand student of Hillel?

I suppose Matthew 23 be read as an attack on Beit Shammai's approach - but it doesn't read to me like Jesus (as portrayed in that text) would have been happy with the approach of beit Hillel either.

There is a long list of things Jesus doesnt like in Matthew 23. They arent mostly as pithy or clever as the swallow a gnat line though.

Thank you for your interesting post.

[S.]

"And they did this even when many people had very poor eyesight and no access to corrective lenses."

And poor indoor lighting, and no access to abundant - let alone flowing - water.

[S.]

"What evidence is there that Jesus was a grand student of Hillel?"

Paul said he was a student of Gamaliel, who almost certainly was Rabban Gamaliel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamaliel

[geoman]

The violence by bet shammai is known based on a quote attributed to R' yehoshua. This is in the yerushalmi, which was compiled in after 350 CE, over 250 years (?) after the incident in question. The baraita on intermarriage between bet hillel and bet shammai, and the reference in Pirkei Avot (much closer in date to the dispute) that the conflict was for the sake of heaven, give a different impression.

Its possible that R' Yehoshua brings an accurate tradition of what happened, that was suppressed in other sources. I wouldnt say its certain though. One thing I learned from reading Neusner is not to treat the gemora as a reliable source for the history of the 1st century CE. http://books.google.com/books/about/Reading_and_believing.html?id=VPIXAAAAIAAJ

OTOH, the text in the yerushalmi IS part of our mesorah, and can still be used to inform our discussion on that basis.

[geoman]

is this based on "jesus the pharisee" by R' Falk?

I am interested in that books acceptance within the scholarly community. Googling the only review of it I can find is from Time magazine which quotes the following

"Lawrence Schiffman, a critic of the book who is a professor of Hebrew and Judaic studies at New York University, says that Falk "has bought a stereotype of the School of Shammai, who in reality were good Jews and good Pharisees." "

I would be interested in seeing references to scholarly reviews of the book.

[geoman]

S, the gnat line is not from Paul, its from jesus, in the gospel of Matthew (in which paul does not appear, I think)

Did Paul say that Jesus too was a student of Gamliel?

[Jmarkbrooks]

This section of your article caught my attention:

"A student of one of Hillel's students attacked these rabbis' extremism: "You blind guides!" he said, "You strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!"

That student, fed up with the growing halakhic extremism that dominated Israel from the last few years of Hillel's life until the Destruction, did what many other disgruntled Jews did with regard to the rabbis or to the Temple cult – lthe walked away and formed their own version of Judaism or joined one of the many sects that began at that time.

His sect, known in history as the Jerusalem Church, grew. An offshoot from it – one the student's brother, who was then the sect's leader, opposed – is Christianity."

This is not true, and so makes your central point untenable. Jesus was not a student of Gamaliel, nor was Paul, who merely stated that he was of the party of the Pharisees, which included both the schools of Shammai and Hillel. James not only didn't oppose Christianity; he was the leader of the Christians in Jerusalem that specifically blessed Paul's ministry to the Gentiles.

I'm not sure what you motivation is here. I hope that you aren't trying to latch into a distressingly common anti-Christian bigotry among Jews to attack the Orthodox. That would accomplish nothing but to sow contention. It does not persuade.

[geoman]

It would be post helpful if shmarya would rewrite this with names - being unfamiliar with the NT myself, I am very confused as to where shmarya is referring to jesus, to James, to Paul, etc, etc.

[geoman]

@jmark

What about Acts 22:3?

[rebeljew]

W4M

My rav requires one to wear a sharp screen over his (he doesn't allow women to ride bikes ... obviously) face and chew a bagel while riding. That way, the bugs get sliced up and are batul to the bagel and din baria doesn't apply.

[R. Wisler]

Rebel,
My more-chushava-than-yours rebbe said that you should ride your bicycle with a double edged razor blade between your teeth so that that bugs get cut up.

Of course this was after his s'fora that the pumping of the pedals is sexually arousing to chassidic pedophiles.

[Jmarkbrooks]

@geoman

I had forgotten. You are correct that Paul refers to being reared in Jerusalem "by the feet of Gamaliel" and "being instructed in the exactness of the paternal law." So in the modern sense at least, Paul was Gamaliel's student, because he was Paul's teacher in the law when Paul was a child growing up in Jerusalem.

However, the central point remains -- there is no basis for associating Jesus with the Pharisees (except as their opponent), Gamaliel or Hillel. No other follower of Jesus is named as a Pharisee other than Paul.

[A. Nuran]

Most of what is ascribed to Saul of Tarsus wasn't actually written by him (cf. Professor Bart Ehrman's Forged). A single historical Jesus may well have never existed. It's a little fraught to discuss which Rabbi this maybe non-existent Jesus studied under.

[PishPosh]

Power Corrupts. Absolute Power Corrupts Absoluteness.

If 2000 years ago you have been able to say that 90% of the Rabbinate were on the level, honest, they had trades, they werent horrifically ambitious to force anything on anybody.

Today 95% percent are part of the biggest Mafia style institutions one can think of. They are thiefs, perverts, deviants, liars, swindlers and plain rude everyday slobs pretending at piety. Only when the rest of Israel rises up and cleans house of these chumra blathering idiots and wife and women beaters and all their chums will we not honestly be able to mind the Torah with peace of mind, till then the Torah will stink as long as these Rabbis have anything to say about how or what Torah is. You cannot study Torah in a toilet and thats what Yeshivas and their Rabbis are. Toilets that teach everything the Torah proscribes. The Tzedukim were angels compared to these felons.

[chanoch]

http://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/5032

who says they ate bugs?!!

[Yaakov]

chanoch:

Did you actually read that article? The conclusion of the author is in line with Shmarya's point. He says they did not halachically eat bugs because of the very reasons that Sharmya brings. Note part of his conclusion:

Rav Moshe's thrust and main point was not that people from earlier generations were not culpable, even though they may have been eating non-kosher; rather it was that even if it is assumed that the halacha generally follows the more stringent opinion, we may not publicize that certain issues are assur (prohibited). Rav Moshe was teaching us that is preferable to rely on a lenient opinion (and saying that previous generations had what to rely on as well) than to say that something is definitely assur, and cast negative aspersions on previous generations – whom, without any doubt, were on a higher spiritual level than we are, especially as they are at least one step closer to Har Sinai.

He weasels around in that paragraph. But, what he is saying is that they didn't eat non-Kosher food (even if bugs were present) because the halacha has the basis for allowing eating the bugs.

There is a lot of talk about "heterim" but the fact is that what was the halacha has become "heter" because of the rightward slide of orthodoxy. The halacha doesn't care about how black your hat is.

[Another Halocene Human]

"What evidence is there that Jesus was a grand student of Hillel?"

Paul said he was a student of Gamaliel, who almost certainly was Rabban Gamaliel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamaliel

Nonsense. Acts of the Apostles is contrived fluff, about as realistic as "John Carter of Mars". Throwing Gamaliel's name in there is an attempt at pseudo-realism, like having Forrest Gump shake the president's hand on film.

The truth is that "Paul" is an imposture by the Bishop Marcion, who used his conveniently unearthed letters to attempt to settle an ecclesiastical dispute in his favor.

The Epistles of Paul would not be the last in a long line of malicious forgeries, such as The Turner Diaries and The Protocols of the Elders of Zion...

"Acts" is a very late piece, a breathless adventure tale (violating all sense of geography, chronology, and common sense), hagiography and screed against detractors of the idiocy known as Orthodoxy. With all the talk of physical miracles (for a good laugh, read the story of Paul and the poisonous snakes), it shows how quickly the depravity of orthodoxy (ie, the notion of a physical Jesus who really lived in the period prior to Hadrian's siege of Jerusalem) had sunken into rank stupidity, mendacity, and credulousness.

And--just think--hundreds of bishops from around the world congregated in Nicaea to pronounce this text THE UNERRANT WORD OF GOD!

[Another Halocene Human]

S, the gnat line is not from Paul, its from jesus, in the gospel of Matthew (in which paul does not appear, I think)

Did Paul say that Jesus too was a student of Gamliel?

I mean no harm by this, but I found your innocent question quite amusing. You see, in the Gospels Jesus comes from nowhere and has no lineage. So he has no father and he has no teacher, rather at age 12 miraculously holding forth on the Tanukh and stunning the most learned scholars of Jerusalem with his wisdom. (See The Gospel According to Luke.)

If you accept the fact, as I do, that the gospels are the work of self-styled "orthodox" (="right teaching") heretics who, centuries after the fact, invented a Jesus, son of God (as opposed to the REAL Jesus, bar Kochba!), attributing to him the sayings and teachings of the anonymous Teacher of the Essenes, and inventing a ridiculous hagiography in the style of Greek or Roman man-gods and giving this confabulation a pseudo-historic cant by linking their invented messiah with personages drawn from real history, such as James and Simon, anti-Roman revolutionaries contemporary to the AD 33 sack of Jerusalem, or John the Baptist, or Pontius Pilate, or the Herods, then the sparsity of pesky details such as "Who taught Jesus?" makes a great deal more sense.

For some fun next Christmas, check out some Xtian apologetics sites where they attempt to gloss over one of the sillier errors in the NT--the inability to place the year when their Lord and Savior was born. Watch buy-bull believin' Christians trip over their own dicks to find a date both before 7BCE and after 4BCE...