Mixed Gender Bus Seating, Sidewalks Are "Suitable For The Low Level Of Africans, But Not For Judaism," Haredi Leader Says

"Every Haredi woman simply enjoys to sit in the back, in the company of women where she can speak about woman-oriented topics, and not to sit in the company of men, and not to open her mouth there. She is comfortable in the back. Women have certain topics of conversation: the kitchen, the household, and child rearing. This is natural."…having public spaces without gender segregation is "suitable for the low level of the Africans, but not for Judaism."

Rabbi Mordechai Blau

Shish writes:

Here's an article from the Hebrew newspaper, Maariv:

http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART2/319/901.html

In it, Rabbi Mordechai Blau, who bears the title, "Chairman of the Oversight of Holiness and Education of the Haredim,"  defends the practice of segregated public buses, stating, "Every Haredi woman simply enjoys to sit in the back, in the company of women where she can speak about woman-oriented topics, and not to sit in the company of men, and not to open her mouth there. She is comfortable in the back. Women have certain topics of conversation: the kitchen, the household, and child rearing. This is natural."

In the original Hebrew:
"כל אישה חרדית פשוטה נהנית לשבת מאחור בחברת נשים ולדבר בענייני נשים, ולא לשבת במחיצת גברים ולא לפתוח שם את הפה. בחלק האחורי נוח לה. לנשים יש את נושאי השיחה שלהן: מטבח, דירה וגידול ילדים. זה הטבע"

As an aside, he also gratuitously makes a completley unnecessary racist comment, stating that having public spaces without gender segregation is "suitable for the low level of the Africans, but not for Judaism" ("זה מתאים לרובד הנמוך של האפריקנים, ולא ליהדות").

Blau is the head of the haredi modesty squads that sometimes terrorize haredi neighborhoods, making sure the rank and file toe the line.

Here's the entire Ma'ariv article as a PDF file:

Download Rabbi Mordechai Blau Ma'ariv mixed gender Bus seating for low Africans

Comments

[Bob Guthrie]

Misogynistic against Female Jews and racist towards blacks,...

Yes, there was a period in the United States of America in the 1960's where they sent people back to the back of the Bus: Female Black Americans.

We saw what happened to the enforcers then. Be ready for G-d's retribution.

[CJL]

Why do you call him a Haredi leader when all he is the leader of a tiny fringe element not recognised by anyone of any importance.

Stop your obsession of trying to blacken every Haredi because of the wrongdoings of a few, you are losing all credibility, except with your cabal of Haredi haters who have their own agenda to attack Haredim to justify why they have left a religious lifestyle.

[Shmarya]

When haredi leaders condemn him you'll have a point. But so far, they haven't.

[Marvin Neiman]

Never heard of Blau who is he? Leader of what? Which Yeshivah foes he head? Which Chassidus does he lead? Am I a Charadi leader too?

[Yaakov]

There is a well known joke with the punchline:

We've already established what you are madam, now we are merely haggling over the price.

Possible antifeminist origins aside, it makes an important point here. The charedim have, by silence, established what they are, now they are merely complaining that they don't support certain tactics to get it.

Get this straight, Yidden, the tactics are reprehensible, but, any criminal can assault someone. What is most odious about you is your doctrine. The smiles and lies with which you obfuscate your goals aren't working any more. Your hand has been tipped.

So, complaining that "not all charedim act like these people" isn't a defense against the most important complaint: you are intolerant, supremacist, misogynistic troglodytes. You cannot coexist with other people as you currently stand. Time to do teshuvah.

[Abracadabra]

You cannot coexist with other people as you currently stand.

They do not want to coexist with other people.

They believe the goyim (the rest of the world) was created by G-d for the sole purpose of serving them.

And other Jews that are not exactly like them are no different than goiyim in their idealogy.

And they thrive, both in the USA and Israel because of their political power - they block vote. So they manipulate politicians and those in power to protect their interests.

If you don't like it they don't care - move to the back of the bus, or take the sidewalk.

[Yaakov]

Abracadabra:

Yes, that's why they must be considered spiritual rodfim.

They are a tiny minority, if the Jewish people rise up and deal with them, they stand no chance. I hope we see this. The alternative is that being "Jewish" will disappear as the disgusted majority simply fade into the world at large. What will be left is a strange, insignificant purity cult with an odd history.

[Shmarya]

Never heard of Blau who is he? Leader of what? Which Yeshivah foes he head? Which Chassidus does he lead? Am I a Charadi leader too?

Posted by: Marvin Neiman | January 04, 2012 at 03:01 AM

Your ignorance and your troll-like behavior aside, Blau is well-known in the Israeli haredi world.

And until the 'gedolim' condemn his BS, he will remain a haredi leader.

[Abracadabra]

What will be left is a strange, insignificant purity cult with an odd history.

I think that, unfortunately, that is what is left already.

The Modern Orthodox are leaning heavily to the right, with more and more MO's and their children moving towards the right.

There's not much left.

And I also think that stuff like this has been going on for centuries. Read the history of the 2nd Temple, then the whole push towards Rabbinic Judaism, the writing of the Talmud which was never meant to be written.. Then the Zohar (a forgery) and what we have now is nothing resembling Judaism 2 millenia ago.

Heck - even chicken started out as Parve (like fish) and not Fleishigs and they changed that too!

As a (admitedly relatively recent) student of history, I'm getting the idea that this is just more of the same thing that has been going on for centuries and millenia.

And the bullies always win. And the winners always get to write history.

[hashiloni]

Yaakov,
I normally enjoy and admire your posts, but in your last missive I'm worried that you might have just painted too optimistic a picture. "Simply fading into the world at large" is not what happens to the Jewish People.
What has tragically happened before may happen again unless we can, as I'm sure you agree, divorce ourselves from this inhumane sectarianism that is the klipah of our generation (whether in its chareidi or Zionist form).
There is, of course, no conflict with being as frum as the pope, a supporter of the Land of Israel and also being a mentsch - and I am as astonished as you are to find such examples of lack of derech eretz being associated with Am Yisrael as the ones with which we are confronted daily.
This type of intolerance must be stamped out at core - as a matter of piku'ach nefesh for the Jewish People - and that can only be done by education. And even that cannot be done coercively, but only by the dugma of respect and dignity to all human beings, including other Jews, that chazal seem to talk about.
It's got to the point now where I no longer expect the poskim of our generation to quote anything resembling a tshuvah (and get genuinely suprised when they quote even a passuk of Tanach) in support of their chumros and Daat Torah nonsense. As Yirmyahu said: "Hakohanim lo amru ayeh Hashem, v'tophsei haTorah lo y'da'uni..." -and that was just the FIRST beit hamikdash)...
I agree with your analysis, Yaakov, and I too believe that many are disgusted, but we cannot just walk away.

[Adam Neira]

Unreal !

Rabbi Mordechai Blau and his ilk are impeding the Redemption.

[Yaakov]

hashiloni:

Thanks for saying you enjoy my posts. I considered your point when I wrote this one but decided to leave it out.

The reason is that concept of Jewish Exceptionalism (not necessarily supremacy, but special and more critical rôle) is part of the problem. It is wrapped up in the Jewish Mythology. It is a way in for the narrishkeit.

Perhaps there is something to it. Perhaps we do tend to be held out from others. This might be because the Christians and Muslims need us for theological reasons, or it could be something else, but, it blunts the point.

I was saying that even if there is something called "the Jews", it wil be the 2% or so that represent the charedi spectrum. The rest of us will not have that name any more.

[Yaakov]

hashiloni:

To expand a bit on this…

It is my belief that the stultifying of the halachic process, which started with the Anshei Kenneset haGadolah, and continued as doctrine increasingly spoke of "closer to Sinai" and other claptrap, means that what we have today is not what we should have.

For a while, Torah evolved. It contained a clever mechanism to ensure this, and as local conditions called for it, the Rabbis legislated. We can no longer adapt. I believe that if the principles of Torah were brought into modernity, we would have something wonderful. An excellent culture, a marvelous ethics, and a deep philosophy.

But if the starting point is Talmudic, we are doomed. Not that we can't learn from the Mishnah and Gemara, but they cannot be the foundation. They were old 500 years ago, they represent pre-enlightenment thinking. The principles there are clothed in nonsense.

[Yaakov]

It must be too early. I keep leaving tags open.

[David]

It looks like the "Rabbi" has had a beard, peyot, hair and wardrobe malfunction.

And why the hell does he have a "goyishe" PC monitor there?

[tonda]

He is going to be ins so much trouble when the other Rabbis find out he uses the internet.

Or maybe they'll change their rulings that only women aren't allowed to use the internet. Or that only those studying to become Rabbis can use the internet, and since women can't become Rabbis, they have no need for it because if they want to exchange recipes or do other "women" stuff all they have to do is find a bus and go sit in the back of it.

Remember; All people are created equal. But some are more equal than others. Unless you're a Goyem or a woman. Or a low level african.

[dlz]

"When haredi leaders condemn him you'll have a point. But so far, they haven't."

Shmarya, I am chareidi and live in Israel. I have never heard of this guy (or his organization) before. What makes you think that any of the Rabbanim have heard of him. Secondly, he has no position, so why does everyone have to deny his drivel?

[ruthie]

he has no position....?????? no position, none?????
i think you should rethink that.
and you might also want to take a look at some international headlines ...

[Yaakov]

dlz:

Wrong answer.

Try:

"This guy is a loony and doesn't represent my views. I haven't heard of him but I would speak against him if he tried to pull any of that stuff in my neighborhood."

Where there is no man, be a man.

[jancsipista]

this guy looks like a mindless zombie everyday their getting more out of their minds whom are the kidding.

[Office of the Chief Rabbi]

At least he called them "Afrikanim" and not "Kushim."

[dlz]

Yaakov:
Absolutely; however, I was addressing Shmaryah's charge that all those who don't protest must be considered to agree with him. My point was that I doubt that many people have even heard of him, just like I myself heard of him for the first time this afternoon.

[seymour]

Posted by: dlz | January 04, 2012 at 07:26 AM

but what he is saying is nothing new

he is just repeating and publicizing what many yeshivas teach to their children and what it written in many seferiom.

many the problem stems fom one quote in the Torah

the chosen people they are taking it to far

[Alter Kocker]

R. Blau:
When you finally do meet Hashem, I hope he calls you a pompous, misogynistic, racist and evil ass that you are.

[yechi ben levitas]

this moredchai is dangerous by reason of his stupidity. stupid people can be a ggreat danger to others by their thoughtless remarks. how does he define as"low level africans". is he talking about race, continent or some other definition to arrive at his conclusion.Mrdechai lau is , as a piece of dung shit wraopped around his mouth which is chazar. he is of the PIGmy species and will forever remain in the filth he lives in.

[Fed up in brooklyn]

As a "charedi" woman, I can state that no female friend of mine or I want to sit in the back of any bus. We want & do sit wherever the hell we please!!! When we get on the bus or train any available seat will do. I prefer not to sit near any charedi man for the simple reason that they stink!!! The don't shower regularly & don't believe in deodorants so that forces us to sit anywhere but in the seat next to them. But if there is an available seat in the front of the bus you bet we sit ourselves and our perfumes, & 4" stilletoes down & whoever doesn't like it is free to move or not sit next me.

[Jewish Cynic]

Israel needs some British style tabloid reporters.
"Holier than thou"s like this usually have interesting private lives.
Wonder how much time he spends in the Yerushalaim mikvahs...

[different dave]

yet again who is providing these idiots with the PR

[tonda]

This jackass is just using the press to become the face of an existing problem. The press willingly uses him because controversy sells papers.

It still doesn't get to the root of the problem that if the issue is so well established that it's even possible to present anything as a defense or explanation of it's continuance, then the fact that someone is willing to step in and become a spokesman defending it is secondary.

[Mamzer HaKodesh]

I recently read an article that reminded me of what I already knew - as a Black woman, I am a target of whites' sexual projections and assault. And nothing I can do will change this. I can't dress a certain way, or speak a certain way. It doesn't matter what I do or how unfair it is or unacceptable, I have no control over other's thoughts and actions.

Similarly, this enrages me and breaks my heart. And it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter how unfair it, how unacceptable. I will be treated as an outsider by most of my Jewish brothers and sisters, and assumed to be different or aggressively dangerous, no matter how untrue this is or how much of a projection it is.

[dlz]

Seymour:
No one else has said what this guy said (that women "naturally" love to be in the back, or the racist remark against blacks).

[Yehuda_ben_Yehoshua]

@mamzer Hakodesh
im lookin for a wife.....free?

[who knows]

MHK, you are right. Furthermore, any Jew who is not like them will be treated as an "outsider, different or agressively dangerous".

[AztecQueen2000]

Excuse me while I sit in the front of the bus and have a stimulating conversation about the Daf Yomi.

[KoKo]

MHK: I was treated like an outsider too, don't worry.... and I'm white and born a Jew.
Go find some people who accept you for who you are, and leave the other losers behind.

[Jack]

A concentration camp would be too kind for the likes of Blau.

[Shmarya]

dlz –

He's from a prominent family.

He's well known in Bnei Brak.

If you follow the link to the Hebrew article, you'll see that.

He was also behind the attempted ban on Facebook and the ban on concerts, and he got a lot of coverage in haredi media for both.

[Yochanan Lavie]

MHK: I daven in a MO synagogue where African-American and Hispanic converts are treated equally (I realize that some Jews of color are born Jewish, but we just don't happen to have any who are born Jewish). I would not daven there if it was any different. Racism is reprehensible and has no part in my world.

Yaakov: I couldn't agree more. What we have now is Gemara-doxy.

And Abra, the Schmohar is filled with nonsense.

[Waiting4Moshiach]

Have you ever riden a city bus in the darker parts of Philadelphia or along 125th street in Harlem at 3 when public schools get out? Does anyone really think that this is the sort of an enviroment that a bachur should be exposed to on his way to or from Yeshiva? Some places are holyer than others and there need to be higher standards for those places, especially where Yidden are involved.

[jancsipista]

Waiting4Moshiach- the most unholy of all place is youre puny brain, ridden is spelled with 2 d s you shoite.

[Sarek]

Where was Blau ordained, the Yeshiva of the Ku Klux Klan?

[Bas Melech]

Waiting4Moshiach

What is your point about riding public buses?

In US ghetto men get up for older and pregnant women, even white middle class women. The front seats are reserved for the disabled and elderly.

When I rode Jerusalem buses before segregation, frum men rarely gave their seats to disabled or elderly or pregnant women. An Israeli bus makes short, quick stops and jerks riders forward.

[Yaakov]

Bas Melech:

Waiting4Moshiach doesn't have any point, ever.

[Gevezener Chusid]

"Fed up in brooklyn" You are as much of a "haredi woman" as I am.

[Abracadabra]

Yaakov - Excellent post at January 04, 2012 at 05:24 AM. I totally agree.

Do you think it is possible to build such an ethical culture based on Judaism, as you describe? If so, how? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this.

[danny]

Daas Narishkeit!

[Yaakov]

Abracadabra:

I would describe it like this. The principle of derech eretz kadma l'Torah (ethical behavior precedes the Torah) needs to be taken very seriously. I would describe the Torah as refinements to derech eretz. If you don't have derech eretz first, the refinements have no foundation.

A practical example: you have seen me write many times against the idea of racial superiority. The basis for this is the Torah concept that "the whole world was made for the Jews". One who learns derech eretz before learning this idea comes to it with the principle that we must respect kol habriot, that is, all of humanity. This person see this as a primary principle, and interprets "the world was made for the Jews" to mean that our duty is to all of humanity.

This is the sort of thing that I did when I learned Torah because I came to it as an adult, steeped in ethics, and without religion.

It will take the work of many people at many levels—the Torah is an emergent phenomenon of the Jewish people. But, the general idea is that if we assume that the ethics of the world, which are accessible to all people precede Torah, we can bring the Torah principles into this world where we have learned much more about what humane and ethical behavior is since the halacha stopped being a living thing.

I have only just started thinking about this, it's newly relevant to me, so please pardon the lack of refinement. But, with the help of many different people, contributions from the greatest traditions, and perseverance, I do believe it can be done.

[danny]

Abracadabra: "And I also think that stuff like this has been going on for centuries. Read the history of the 2nd Temple, then the whole push towards Rabbinic Judaism, the writing of the Talmud which was never meant to be written.. Then the Zohar (a forgery) and what we have now is nothing resembling Judaism 2 millenia ago."

Could you recommend some good book titles, written from a non-Koolaid drinkers perspective? Thanks

[ah-pee-chorus]

do you think he would have the same opinions of africans, women and charedim if he were instead an african woman?

[BeenThereDoneThat]

I agree with Yaakov, and this whole derech eretz thing came up many years ago, and repeatedly, because it seems that the religious constantly tend towards radicalism and fundamentalism, and every once in a while, a brave rabbi or such like makes a stand and reins them in ( or tries to).

Remember the story of Hillel and the person who came to him asking to teach him the Torah while standing on one foot? He said, "honor thou neighbor as thy self, and all the rest is commentary".

This person has missed the plot.

[Yochanan Lavie]

As usual, W4M shows himself to be a racist troll. At the risk of blowing my cover, I will say that I work in Harlem, in a public high school. The stereotypes that people like W4M conjure up in their pea brains are wrong. I have taken the bus on 125th Street and never had a problem. And I am very white. I would rather be a white person on 125th Street than a secular woman in a chareidi neighborhood.

[Rochel]

I prefer not to sit near any charedi man for the simple reason that they stink!!! The don't shower regularly & don't believe in deodorants so that forces us to sit anywhere but in the seat next to them. But if there is an available seat in the front of the bus you bet we sit ourselves and our perfumes, & 4" stilletoes down & whoever doesn't like it is free to move or not sit next me.
Posted by: Fed up in brooklyn | January 04, 2012 at 08:18 AM

In that case I think from now on it is the stinky men that should sit in the back of the bus, downwind, and the women sit in the front where they would get a nice breeze. Perhaps we can all agree on that :)

[Deremes]

I used to go alot to Harlem and bed sty.
Till about 10 years ago i was scared each time i went.These days its like any other neighborhoods but a while back crime was rampant and a white person and especial if you looked Jewish was no picnic driving or walking around.

Blau said what MOST white people express themselves in private talk.

Question:
Why calling Haredim low life's,subhumans,cancers is acceptable and saying the same thing on blacks is called racist?

Answer:
Hypocrisy and double standard.

[Robert Wisler]

Guys, again W4M is parodying the typical "frummah" mindset with his posts. He is not being serious. What's unfortunate is that probably 80% of the "frum" world holds dear to these perverted values! Again.... IT'S A PARODY OF THE IGNORANCE AND STUPIDITY OF THE BROOKLYN JEW!!!!'

[ah-pee-chorus]

Question:
Why calling Haredim low life's,subhumans,cancers is acceptable and saying the same thing on blacks is called racist?

Answer:
Hypocrisy and double standard.

Posted by: Deremes

you would be 100 % correct.....IF.....

1. being black was a choice people made

2.those people had a choice to become un-black if they wanted to

3. deciding to be black meant a desire to follow a 'life guidebook for blacks' as explained by certain black leaders who interpreted it in such a way as to permit or demand highly immoral behavior

4.when evil was committed by people who chose to be black based on their impeccable adherence to the great black leaders, the leaders remained silent thereby assuring all that these evil acts were definitely required (or at least condoned) as part of being a real black.

deremes, i'm sure this will all be lost on you so dont waste your time trying to follow.

[Deremes]

Posted by: ah-pee-chorus | January 04, 2012 at 01:57 PM

You right its hard to follow your logic and i am not a political correct person.

[akibare]

It's just so predictable, each time such a statement is made public, out comes the "no true Scotsman" defense.

If someone makes a statement like this, or Heaven forbid harasses women, well, the very fact that they did so MEANS that they're conveniently defined as "doing it wrong" and "not us," and therefore can't be criticized as an example of "our" behavior.

Which would just be one interesting curious thing, except that so often in the comments sections of various forums and news sites it's combined with comments that aren't NEARLY so kind to other groups. One frothing at the mouth guy from the Other Group, and well, that's just how They are, it's rooted in their belief system, They all think this way that justifies me hating them, but these people here? Ah, that's just one bad apple, they're not "really" members of my group, you can't judge me by them!!! You just don't know enough to tell the difference!

Heck, you can see examples right here on this page.

[ruthie]

yochanan....i love harlem ...i love the energy on 125th street...everything about it.
omg

[ruthie]

yochanan..
have you had a chance to read the history of beauty yet?

[Simon]

In the good old days, when all we had was a Shulchan Aruch, we were told not to sit between 2 women. Now they’ve chucked out the Shulchan Aruch. Personally, I wish I was as frum as R’ Yosef Caro. Some people think they are frummer.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Ruthie: I have many unread books piling up, and I'm on a tight budget. But I'll put that one on my Amazon wish list.

[יהודה]

Blau is a self- appointed pain in the butt who's only position is that of nudnik to the Gedolim. He feeds them exaggerated reports of the "terrible" things happening and gets a mandate to "fix" it. It's his ONLY claim to fame. He is not a Rabbi of any sort; probably a complete Am Haaretz. He has done much damage to those who do not bow to Haman. ת.נ.צ.ב.ה.

[Mamzer HaKodesh]

Yehuda_ben_Yehoshua, well that is very flattering!

Yochanan Lavie, Who Knows, Koko:

Thanks for the support. It's very true that the frum world often excludes anyone who isn't Orthodox, let alone non-white. Although, I still get an exclusionary response when I go to Reform and Conservative synagogues.

[Seffy]

I am a chareidi woman. In Israel. Online for work. No, I really don't mind sitting in the back! sorry! As for fed up in brooklyn, I wouldn't call any woman on a public bus in 4 inch stilletoes sitting down whereever she pleases "chareidi". Maybe a nice woman, a kind, pleasant, woman but definately not "chareidi"

[David]

I am a chareidi woman. In Israel. Online for work.
Posted by: Seffy | January 05, 2012 at 01:21 AM

It's interesting that you made the distinction that you were "Online for work." as if it would be unacceptable to be online for any other reason. G-d forbid one would want to learn about the world... In any case, if you were in fact online only for work, how did you come to be on this blog. As you can infer from my name I am a male so it may not be appropriate to even answer me. My compliments on you actually working, so few Charedim bother. Does you husband work also, or does he expect you to work and raise your presumed 8-12 children whilst he "learns" all day?

[Yaakov]

Seffy:

What about woman who do care about riding in the back of the bus?

What about the way men treat women who care?

There's nothing more galling to me than a man who is completely dependent on his wife acting as if she is less than him because of her gender. And, before you claim that doesn't happen, let me point out that I have seen it myself, and it is common.

Also, by your own ethics and morality, you should be neither reading here, nor using the computer for anything but work, and, using your time at work for anything but your employer's gain is theft. Do you think if you asked a shaila of a charedi Rav that he would allow this?

For my part, you are welcome, it's good to hear from you. But, don't be disingenuous, if people in your own community knew what you were doing here, even defending them, you would be in trouble with them.

[Abracadabra]

Yaakov - Thank you for the detailed reply. It sounds great on paper. I wonder how it could play out in the real world. It's a good idea.

And I wanted to just let you know that I've been enjoying your comments.

[Abracadabra]

Danny - I wish I had some good books to recommend to you. I'm sorry that I don't.

But if anyone else does - can you please list them here?

Danny is looking for good books on Jewish History that are not written by "The Koolaid Club" (i.e., ArtScroll or the like).

[Yaakov]

Abracadabra:

I am an advocate of "pragmatic Judaism". That is, actions in service to principles. Orthodoxy is effectively the reverse.

I believe that only a pragmatist can be true to principle, and remain honest when confronted with the world. The approach of the orthodox is either to lie about the world, or deny it.

Because I believe that I am "me" on account of my body I consider the world an integral part of me. That I exist is an outcome of being physical. On the other hand, I also have internal experiences which cannot be explained by the physical. My human experience, something that I share with every person on this planet, is entirely internal.

If one argues that my brain can be stimulated in such a way as to provoke an "experience", and therefore my experience is just more of the physical world, I say this: I find meaning in my experiences, and precisely which experiences I have doesn't change that. That is to say, the idea of being me is not susceptible to physical explanation.

So, I give each sort of reasoning its domain. I don't argue with valid science concerning the world, but, I don't accept a lack of "objectivity" as a reason to discard my internal life.

All of this sets the foundation for my understanding of how Judaism show emerge. It is the fusion of these two domains, applying principles which come from the world of reason, with those we have from the arational world of internal experience.

I am glad you find my comments enjoyable. I know they are often prolix, sententious, and abstruse. I also tend to use obscure words. But, I am quite sincere, and my passion is genuine.

[Yaakov]

Errata:

Please change:

All of this sets the foundation for my understanding of how Judaism show emerge.

to:

All of this sets the foundation for my understanding of how Judaism should emerge.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Yaakov: I also like your perspective.

[Yaakov]

Yochanan:

Thanks for saying so. I read your comments with interest as well. You are a reasonable person. We don't have to have complete agreement on hashkafa to be able to appreciate each other's contributions to what it means to be "Jewish".

[RightJew]

Can any PC Libs explain these seeming errors in PC terminology?

Isn't a Caucasian Jew a "Jew of color"? (The last time I looked, Caucasians were not transparent).

Isn't a Jew born in the US a "native American"?

Isn't a "homo-phobic" person one who is afraid of man?

What do G-d and King Obama have in common?
Neither of them have birth certificates! (A layered PDF file created using Photoshop software is not a valid birth certificate).

[Yaakov]

RightJew:

I am neither politically correct nor liberal so I hope you don't mind if I answer.

The word "color" is as technical specific as the word "Caucasian". Both have a meaning in the vernacular that is not the same as their most restrictive definition. So, a "person of color" means someone with a darker skin than the population which holds political power.

Again, you are confusing vernacular usage with a deconstruction of the the phrase. "Native American" doesn't refer to someone who is "native to America" but to a person who is descendant from aboriginal Americans. So, while a Jew born in the US could be a Native American, it is not automatically true.

Again, you are confused by an attempt to deconstruct the term "homophobic". If you had some training in Greek and Latin you wouldn't be confused. The homo- in "homophobia" is from "homosexual" which is based on the Greek homos not the Latin which means man.

And, on the birth certificate issue. Adobe Acrobat automatically creates layers for OCR if you import an image to create a PDF. You can try it yourself if you don't believe it.

[Abracadabra]

Yaakov - It is your sincerity, passion, and intelligence that I find most enjoyable. Although I don't normally enjoy reading comments which necessitate my having a dictionary in hand (a Charedi education limits one's English language skills), it's a small price to pay for some intelligent "conversation".

I also find it interesting that you answer and engage some of the trolls who frequent this website.

You mentioned that you didn't grow up Orthodox. Do you care to share your background? You seem to know a lot about Orthodoxy.

Many of us here have been deeply disillusioned by Orthodoxy, myself included.

[Yaakov]

Abracadabra:

I grew up in a household in 1960's NYC, where being Jewish meant that we celebrated Passover instead of Easter, and Chanukkah instead of Christmas. We had a seder every year, with extended family, and went through the haggadah, but with bread on the table.

I grew up in almost total ignorance of ritual observance, but there was never any sense of anti-religiosity. My parents never said anything against religion, it never came up. My mother's mother came from Hungary. She grew up in a frum household, completely orthodox. She abandoned ritual observance after coming to America, after much debate with her mother

By the time I was aware of it, the the only ritual mitzvah that she performed was bentsch licht, which she did, on time, with every detail, without fail. When I asked my parents, "why does grandma do that?" They said, "It's something old people do." And that was the whole discussion.

Fast forward to about 15 years ago when my wonderful wife decided that we needed religious structure in our lives. I had the same impulse, but having "considered" Judaism in my youth, that wasn't on my spiritual radar. She did considerable research into orthodoxy and decided we should pursue it. Then, because my approach to spiritual matters always ran to the esoteric, she read me Adin Steinsaltz' peirush on the Tanya, "The Thirteen-petaled Rose".

I had no idea there was even such a thing as Jewish mysticism, and I was blown away with how consistent his presentation of it was with my own thinking. I was hooked, and because I believed that what Steinsaltz presented was the foundation of Torah, I accepted on myself to follow the Rabbis concerning ritual practice until I, myself, understood the "secrets" of Torah.

At that point, I devoured all the Torah I could, and as I learned I fitted what I learned into the ethical and spiritual framework that I had already built over many years. It fit well, at first. Then I started to see inconsistencies. I could, at the beginning of my disillusionment, find excuses for the gaps. But, as I learned, and as I saw how well the Torah (and always, I use "Torah" in the broadest sense), matched the ethical framework I had previously built, I began to actively reject the much less consistent framework the Rabbis were trying to replace it with.

I loved to learn. I spent hours at it. I attended every shiur I could, and listened to tapes, and read seforim, and talked to the talmeidi cochomim that I knew. I wanted to know the secrets of Torah so I could really understand how it all fit together. After a while, I realized that all the things these men had taught me they didn't really know themselves.

I realized that everything around me in the Jewish world I knew was moving to the dishonest, life-denying right. Orthodoxy had left me behind, and I was sad about it, but, I am thankful as well. I had to stay honest and true to what I learned is Torah.

This is a woefully incomplete and somewhat mythological version of my story, but I think it accurately provides a foundation to understand my relationship with Torah.

[Yaakov]

I am terrible with times and dates. A little more thought puts the beginning of my foray into Jewish Orthodoxy about 20 years ago rather than 15.

[Abracadabra]

Yaakov,

I must apologize, I was unexpectedly away for a few days, and did not have internet access.

Thank you for sharing your story.

Can I ask how you, your wife, your children now dealt with Orthodoxy? Is your wife still interested? Are you keeping to it as a family? How did you educate your children?

It is always interesting to me to hear the stories of people who came to Orthodoxy as adults, and how they dealt with the day when most of them inevitably realize that the emperor is missing a few garmets.

[Yaakov]

Abracadabra:

No apology necessary.

I am a little uncomfortable with a more detailed public discussion but if you follow the link on my name "Posted by: Yaakov" below, it leads to my blog, there is an email address. If you want to email, I will answer.

—Yaakov

[Observer]

What?!?! I am a born-again Christian, and I have been taught that Jews are above us, that Jews have a special covenant with God, that is somehow more sacred than what we Christians have. But this is crazy! Are Jews intolerant against women? This goes against what I was taught.